GEPRC Cinelog35 a new generation of Cinewhoop

[@EnzoM]

For the confidence going through tight spaces, I feel that the squirt really gets slown down with the ducts and doesn't want to get moving as easily

[@LukeMegBiking]

But the slammed squirt, that’s a different story

[@AERR_FPV]

Shoe goo the cam, a drop on the screw head to the cam side mount. Removes clean ,and the screws and cam stay till you undo it.

[@the_darkside_fpv]

Wow that cinelog 35 looked damn good during the acro. Hell all around it looks good.

[@timn4481]

the jiggling is caused by the controller fighting the forces caused by the ducts. you could address it somewhat with a more stable controller setup but that'll make it less manouverable.

[@rolisaenz]

Joshua, if you strap an insta 360 go2, what would be the ballpark fly time as it is less heavy than a gopro 10.

[@MacxConvergeProductions]

U get 2-3 mins extra for sure

[@MCsCreations]

Fantastic flying and review, Joshua! 😃 GepRC has been killing it lately! Anyway, stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊

[@proxemiafpv5746]

Please keep this content coming. I frequent two you tubers only. And your one of them! I love when I see a new video is posted, even if it is not something I’m in the market for, because regardless, I’m gonna learn somethin’.

[@LeeLaster]

A wider motor (depending on the mass of the casing) also produces more angular momentum. Just like a larger diameter flywheel. That’s beneficial in cases where you want smoother rpm changes. There’s more energy stored in the rotation and more gyroscopic effect. Albeit minor differences.

[@flaparoundfpv8632]

The squirt more steady in a tight environment because the thrust is directed downward. That makes it sideslip less. The vertical column of air has a way of arresting horizontal drift, even without corrective input. It's the main feature of a classical cinewhoop worth looking at, IMO

[@janvogt454]

+1. Can confirm, best noticed when you do movements where you would normally drift, like tight, slow-ish cornering. The ducts make it feel much more planted. So very useful for precision but for the price of acro-ability

[@fpvclown6088]

Just bought one of these but yet to fly it... impressed at your skills Joshua to fly it so smoothly around the shed..cant wait to try mine.

[@atticusfinch5988]

I got the Cinelog 35 analog, and upgraded it to a DJI airunit, and an ELRS RX. It runs a stock GoPro10 and 4s 1100. While the drone is just buttery to fly, I found the same thing with the throttle needing to be pretty 'high stick' to get going, which made tighter flying a bit uncomfortable. It also gives the Nazgul a run for it's money with the 'scream'. I think it was due to the stick play from takeoff to full was much smaller than I'm used to. I ended up pushing the throttle curve to be a bit more aggressive on the low end, level out, then spike up again. It now flies like a dream. Takes off at lower throttle (stick position) and in the midground you have a lot more play, but most importantly, the stick sits much closer to center for a steady cruising thrust. Awesome drone to fly, highly recommend, and a big thanks to you JB for having so many instructional vids, that I knew how to do that.

[@ciarankellaghan6158]

would you recommend the protek 35 or cinelog 35

[@atticusfinch5988]

@@ciarankellaghan6158 I dont have the protek, nor have I flown it. All I can do is recommend the Cinelog. From what I hear they are both pretty dang good. I watched a few reviews and settled on the GEPRC for this one, but can't remember what tipped me over the edge.

[@DeathMetalBIH]

Are you willing to share your betaflight settings? 😊

[@runpuppyfpv5744]

Chris rosser is gonna love that camera mount lol

[@marcoreviews]

Great 👍 video as always! Thanks for showing us this cool new quad!

[@xnoux1]

Hi Joshua, some element that is worth considering when selecting those types of kwad is... the noise they make! I made a 2.5 caged-style cinewhoop and was extremly surprised by the noise it generates! Much more than my AOS 3.5... And I believe noise is an underrated element when it comes to flying around people: the louder the scarier! In that sense, what is the most discrete cinewhoop in your video?

[@jackwritter1302]

Noise, what noise.. I have a Cinelog 35 it doesnt make noise.. thereS another name for it.. like MAJOR DISTURBANCE...!!!

[@xnoux1]

@@jackwritter1302 lol I dont follow you ;)

[@jackwritter1302]

@@xnoux1 Lol I just bought a Cinelog 35 and not only is it loud as you were saying.. Mann !! its super duper NOISEY.. lol.. im like damn.. did i just spend $500 on this thing.. not to mention the batteries and all the extra propellers and parts ive ordered, that will delivered in 2 months.. lol

[@xnoux1]

@@jackwritter1302 you can probably work this out with trying other sets of props… maybe someone can recommend you some specific ones!

[@Reecefpv]

Iv been using 2203 for cinewhoops for a while and love em and I'm suprised it had a slight wobble when flying but I might of been wrong lol. I was actually already looking into this frame but I'm still undecided cause I want something to fly really slow but not have wobbles. So far the cinerat has been my favorite. I shouldn't have took it apart lol

[@FPVDiverBomber]

My crappy flying taycan looks nervous,,, I think you flew it good enough for inside... When you going to fly an FPV airplane? Ive been dive bombing in FPV, come hang out in California, I got tacos for ya! Seriously dude your an asset to the community who's value is literally beyond measure... Thanks

[@angrmgmt]

Interesting with the wobbling on the Squirt. I have a 3 inch whoop I printed as a one piece frame with rigid really tight (contact) ducts in 15% carbon fibre reinforced PETG, and it has none of that in the raw footage (no hypersmooth). And I am a pretty shitty pilot but it's smooth as butter..

[@gerardoperna85lioni]

👍bellissimo il finale del video col bellissimo baby ❤❤

[@spikester]

Since both my GepRC rockets bit the dust, one ended up in the lake and the other in pieces on my bench, I been looking for another cinewhoop to build for flying indoors that has more compatible parts, as rocket uses a strange hole spacing for an AIO, 1mm larger than standard, and its a very outdated build now considering it was a DJI FPV launch model. I am undecided between this Cinelog series or simply going entirely DIY with a Cinerat 3" build with flatrats and doing all the 3d printed parts myself.

[@Gordon-Scott]

Well Mr. Bardwell thank you for your honest and truthful review and opinion on ducts 👍👍 The truth doesn’t always make you popular but it does make you honorable 😉🙏

[@KAREKINFPV]

Would you say the issue with the 35 indoors not being as confident is due to the larger props causing more airflow to bounce off objects and affect the flight? When you get into tight environments it can blow off walls and cause drifting?

[@TheNinjaNarwhals]

How would you compare it to the protek series? Ie 25,35

[@metasamsara]

I think the comfort flying in tighter spaces might be because the prop guards are making a decent tunnel despite being open? How exactly do they line up with the angle of the air flying through the props angle? It could be despite the hole at the center and the extremes top and bottom don't matter as much as cutting the air at the right angle, making it vacuum well despite the stripped design and good air penetration? Maybe something to investigate further in their R&D.... Maybe the props guards could even extend as static versions of the props continuation all around to further stabilize the air passing through the props vertically while keeping good stabilization and vacuum and air penetration and structural integrity.

[@onkelhofpv]

Great review Joshua, but I would disagree with the motors sizes: Its not only the cooling - in my experience a 1408 Motor can´t handle heavy props with more than 3 blades very well. Normally these higher motors (1408/1507) have better/more efficient thrust over high rpms, while wider motors like 2004 gets better/more efficient thrust over low RPMs with more propsurface (more blades). Its a feels little bit like the difference of motor of a sports car and a Truck diesel engine. I tried 5 and 6 blade props on 1408 and its less responsive, less powerful, while running hotter. With 3 blade props its definetly more agile, more powerful and runs also cooler. On the other hand the 2004/05 Motors don´t handle high rpms/light props very well. So, yes the thrust itself is at the end the same, but is produced differently - either over high RPM and less blade surface/less blades or low RPM and large blade surface/more blades and there is a big difference between a 1408 and a 2004 Motor how they handle this. I think its because of the difference in the leverage like the gears in a bicycle. The misconception is often, that we reduce torque to the motors itself, but the torque is more a combination of props, rpm and the motor form together.

[@timn4481]

i think people who comment on props and motor rpm/kv efficiency should have basic electrical and prop/aero background. it'd really help in correlating what is going on to what the physics is instead of this subjective opinion.

[@timn4481]

props themselves dont make a quad more agile. but the less props you have, the more efficient the use of power is for the diameter of the prop. rather than use more blades, you are better off getting larger diameter props. the misconception from people is that they change one variable and reach a conclusion based on correlation, not causation. i.e. if you just change the voltage, of course itll give you better performance, but you could also be pushing your motor into its upper end of its limits where it runs hot and becomes less efficient so sucks more power for each unit of thrust. so youll get better performance when you fly, but worse performance per unit of power because power has a cubed relationship to rpm and thrust has a squared relationship. adding power also could put all of your electrics into inefficient operation..not just the motor but the ESCs and the controller itself.

[@EnzoM]

18:13 "the extra inch or so can make a difference when going through tight spots like that... for the actors confidence" XD

[@tonnoz]

"that's what she said". Micheal Scott

[@CarbonGlassMan]

I tried some open prop quad 3.5 inch props on this and the set I tried did not work well. Little power and a lot of vibration. But I built mine With a very different and larger AIO board and some older Xing 1408 motors.

[@gus8378]

19:10 The lack of confidence could have been due to the camera angle, which seemed to be more appropriate to the speeds you were flying on the shendrone, whereas on the cinelog you seem to be looking up.

[@anthonyfpvminiquad1728]

Unscrew the camera back plate and press down on the mipi. I've had a situation where despite my backplate being on tight, the center pins of the mipi were pulling loose. He the same symptoms you described. Hope that helps the issue with video. This quad looks great

[@chrismillersrcfamily]

Mine squirt does the wobble thing too. Paul supposed to changed over to the terraplane.

[@commercialvideographer]

Love the camper!

[@hateforall4012]

So this GEPRC or the blue cat c35 for flying inside and showing houses for realtors?

[@stevejakab]

Nice video. Where did you get that great T shirt from Joshua?

[@gf999]

Dear Joshua, thank you for your video. I have one issue that was not spoke about. Should it be 4S or 6S? In general I want to fly with full Gopro 8 or higher after I will replace my current. I want to fly mostly outside however, I want also to fly inside buildings from time to time. Till now I had most experience with 5inch 6S freestyle drones and I'm looking for more stable videos. Which one version would you recommend 4S or 6S?

[@ericapelz260]

Thanks JB. I've been thinking about a cinelog more for added twig a brush resistance as anything else. I just wish I could get one with no VTX or camera since I am planning to move to Sharkbyte when the better cameras are more readily available.

[@Zerbabilon]

You should rig your 5” freestyle quad to fly upside down and compare the performance. If you just flip your props and camera would it work? Or would you have to flip all the guts? 🤔

[@MaxRovensky]

iFlight were right with the Protek35

[@djilly75]

Very thorough review. Great job Joshua

[@fredrock8398]

Wondering how this compares to the slammed squirt

[@pharaosa]

Hey Joshua, I have been studying/binging your videos for a week now. I am new to fpv, with the goal of doing cinema flying in the future. I pre-ordered your tx16s max with ELRS, with plans to spend quality time in a simulator. I think I have narrowed my choices down to the protek35 and this drone. I'm having a hard time choosing, and could use a recommendation. I plan on running digital, while carrying a gopro 9. Your help is greatly appreciated. -Josh Browne

[@pharaosa]

I'm also open to getting something like the nazgul, but I do want to film around crowds at music festivals, so one of the guarded ones is appealing..

[@Shauny_D]

Every time JB mentions Chris Rosser I giggle and think of antennas blowing willy nilly in the breeze

[@SkyCandyVisuals]

JB are you building a she shed in your yard over there or is that for you and all your drones for a new place to record video from?

[@CarbonGlassMan]

I am curious... if the ducts aren't behaving as ducts then why the bull nose props? Those seem to only be used on ducted quads and this isn't a ducted quad, so are traditional open style props better for this or is there still an advantage because there is still something at the tips of the props?

[@squaddingquads]

What wins, this or a protek 35?

[@FPVDiverBomber]

Did you ever fix the camera from flopping down?

[@0ut1avv]

Thanks Joshua for your videos. I wanted to ask a question wich drone is better Taycan30 or Cinelog35. I flew only a few months with Taycan and I think that it's a best drone for people who in the beggining of this long way, but after I've bought cinelog35 and flew a little bit, I can say that they are 2 different things. When earleier I had to decide which drone should I leave and which schould sell, now I want both of them, because each one provides differnet experience and brings joy in it's own way.

[@022fpv]

Hi @Joshua Bardwell , how about inflight protek25 pusher?

[@Miguel_paredes80]

That t-shirts 🔥

[@MadDragon75]

GEPRC rocks!

[@Tiago.c.Pereira]

On 9:05 you say it's polar camera but the specs say it's nebula pro. Right?

[@JoshuaBardwell]

That is true. That was a mis-speak. It's a Nebula Pro.

[@МаксимДончик-д9г]

thanx for that video! It would be nice to hear the sound of these drones!

[@harrycash8713]

Hello JB it's me again the guy that's a beginner trying to figure out why you have to have two cameras I guess one is for your fpv and the other is for viewing later for a better shot sounds logical but why can't they just have one camera? Also I assume fixed props are better than folding props is that correct? Thanks in advance my primary objective is to have a drone for photographic purposes.

[@JoshuaBardwell]

The GoPro has high quality image but high latency. Too high latency to fly off of. The FPV cam has very low latency but bad image quality.

[@SpirusFilms]

Is this still a good option toward the end of 2023? Has anything else comparable come around?

[@JoshuaBardwell]

Honestly it's still one of the best. Cinebot may be better.

[@CptSinep-cu5fp]

whenever you go up this barn i wanna fix this table since many videos lol

[@antoniofilipe70]

Hello JB. My new cinelog C25 Analog don’t wok. Every thing it was fine (start music complet), I solder the ELRS Nano 2.4 , I’ve bind it with the Radiomaster tx16s when is link to the PC by USB, but don´t start and show the red LED only. With out start music: Any ideia? Thank you

[@jackwritter1302]

just got mine. bound it to my tx16s..no go pro.. it took off and broke.... I planned on flying around the house, I can barely fly outside.. what Mode should I be In as a beginner?

[@silbaerFPV]

"the extra inch or so can make a difference when going through tight spots like that"... Can you please messure the with of both, the Cinelog35 and the ShenDrones Squirt? Is there really a difference?

[@dertiefkuhlkoch1295]

Hey Joshua, great review! i would love to buy a cinewhoop in the next months, but I'm still not convinced by any product. In my opinion the big advantage for cinewhoops is, that you can fly in tight spaces and between people without scaring them. Else i would put a Gopro on a 5" and just let it go. A cinewhoop shouldn't be able to do freestyle moves or anything like that in my opinion. Just really smooth flying with the knowledge that nothing can hurt your drone and even more important: your drone can't hurt anything around you. Since you got a the most knowledge about that topic: what should I buy?

[@cneedelman1]

I'm in the same situation. Did you buy yet?

[@ronmartyn]

Me too I'm in the same situation. Did you all get?

[@lolmetyuri]

I'm in the same boat... Heard good things about the v2

[@bugsy742]

@@lolmetyurino one has replied and I am in the same situation 😅👍🤝

[@koenscholten5782]

It looked to me like the props were props upside down for a push configuration. That would explain the lack of thrust. Correct me if I’m wrong

[@JoshuaBardwell]

Definitely not. You can closely examine the thumbnail image if you want to double check: i9.ytimg.com/vi/UhAsbWXTwBw/maxresdefault.jpg?time=1638378000000&sqp=CJDUno0G&rs=AOn4CLDRu5RyW1UuKoHBVrMRKuCo270hLg

[@MarkFisch]

The 2.5 is awesome I have it

[@rfly-fpv]

Great review as always and great quad (I'm waiting for UPS to ship mine soon). I'm just wondering about the difference between two quad's GoPro footage. Was this recored on different part of the day, different ND filter, different settings? I feel like CineLog 35 footage is way too "dreamy" :( All the details are blurred and maybe some jello is hiding there ;)

[@outsidasuniversal3465]

Hey Joshua, awesome video as usual. Question for you, did you fly the geprc straight out of the box or did you make some changes in Betaflight? Im new to fpv and your footage was a lot smoother then what I'm getting out of my cinealog30. I watched your cineawhoop week video when you went over configuration but geprc wasn't on there. Do you have a configuration video for the geprc cinealog drones.

[@Cre8ionz.]

7:38 min - E6000 glue should help

[@konspikuous420]

Are you flying wearing your frames or contacts? I'm interested in cinewhoop, just not sure how I'm supposed to see tiny TVs with my Rx

[@Saran-bc3ys]

Which one is better Foxxer 35 or GepRC cinelog 35 ?

[@LaM4PL]

Soooo many nice chairs! ;)

[@adilchopdar7746]

Should this be my 1st drone ??

[@FPV_TOMMY]

Would you dive a huge building with this drone?

[@zwelimyarthurbrurianjaya4139]

Yes i've learned something.. thx Joshua

[@Shauny_D]

It doesn't look like the cinelog is actually any wider than the squirt. 3.5 " is bigger but the ducts are side by side but on squirt there is an inch of frame in between so I bet shooting a gap is actually almost the same

[@bigmedia9398]

Where can i find pid tuning for this cinelog35

[@gopoletaem]

Hi, Joshua! I only have one motor running. Both in arming and in betaflight. When I turn on the beeper, one motor also beeps. The problem is in the flight controller or motors? Can it be otherwise?

[@RobWatt]

hey Joshua, i accidentally flashed my firmware and I'm trying to reinstall the CLI that gepRC originally sent out with the cinelog35 hd. Any idea how i can locate it? I've tried searching their website and reaching out to them but no response yet. many thanks!

[@brianpstudios]

What are your thoughts on Slammed Squirts?

[@gregoryvanhove8868]

Hi Joshua, I'm new to the FPV scene... I love your channel, learning a lot about the hobby! I'm flying DJI drones for 6 years now and want to have a little more fun! What battery do you recommend to fly the cinelog 35 with a full GoPro9. I'm looking at the Tattu R-Line Version 4.0 1050mAh 22.2V 130C 6S1P Lipo or the GEPRC 6S 1100mAh 60C or Lumenier N2O 1100mAh 6s 120c (Tattu is 170gram, the Geprc is 136gram, the lumenier... 193gram) Thx for your input...

[@antjon4129]

Awesome content and video. Ok I'm sure you hear this often but I'm not different. I want to do some cinematic footage.. But more long range shots/flying being I'm living in Colombia and have wide open spaces. I love the geprc 35..do you think this drone would serve my purpose or perhaps another suggestion? I want to try (like everyone) to fly my drone as long as I can.. And with severe great distances. I heard there was new antennas for some Google. Can you help me piece together what you suggest.. While I will use your links so you get your compensation for the referrals. I appreciate your advice and help. ( A complete set up.. Fpv Goggles.. Receiver.. Batteries... Drone.. Spare parts... Etc.)

[@yyin88]

I appreciate the dampening mount to take out some of the vibration as result of my bad skill. But I was just curious about the tune, so I tighten the bolts just a few turns in all four. As a result, whenever I pulled back the throttle lightly, there was vibration visible in the video. I was flying it indoor, so it wasn't even going fast at all. Even when it was taking off the ground, I raised the throttle, then eased the throttle, there was vibration. I am really confused.... I checked the screws on the camera mount, the frame, and motors. There was no vibration when constant flying, but there was when throttle is pulled back just even a little.

[@df_quad]

I have same problem =(

[@3rdtwirl494]

What controller do I buy. DJI ?

[@HansBaier-oi6iu]

I think the inertia of a heavier quad is what causes the lack of confidence in tight spaces.

[@filippoangeloaurelioaltobe3761]

how about Shendrones Terraplane. I would like to see a comparsion between the old and the new shendron.

[@dreswan1]

I believe Nurk has done that comparison .

[@StoneyDino-f5p]

How did you balance it? im flying a gopro 9 and its soooo front heavy

[@Blakeee2012]

Cinelog 35 or the slammed squirt v2?

[@vwtrey100]

Maybe you said it, and I missed it, but are the ducts also there as a safety thing? Close proximity to people and objects?

[@JoshuaBardwell]

Yes, exactly.

[@MadDragon75]

At 2:18 sounds like the undesirable characteristics of the coanda effect the Avrocar suffered durring flight test.

[@ilyamaksyutov3473]

Hello! Please provide your Betaflight settings for Cinelog 35. I'm a beginner pilot and recently acquired the Cinelog 35v2 drone. It flies like a cow, and I suspect that incorrect PID settings might be the cause.

[@JoshuaBardwell]

A cinewhoop is never going to fly acrobatics like a 5". It flies like a cow because it's designed to carry weight and be smooth.

[@banzaiib]

technically, the windings determine the torque of the motor, not the volume itself. Within that volume: smaller diameter wire in the windings with more turns = more torque (lower kv). Larger diameter wire with less turns = lower torque but higher speed (higher kv)

[@JoshuaBardwell]

I don't think this is right. Kv does not directly determine torque. Kv determines the relationship between torque and amps. Higher kv draw more amps to make the same torque. But if the number of amps is available to make the torque that the motor "wants" to make, a higher kv motor will make the same torque as a lower kv motor. The reason torque is proportional to volume is that torque is largely dominated by two factors: 1) the diameter of the motor, which causes it to have a longer or shorter lever arm, which torque is proportional to the length of the lever arm, and 2) the size of the magnet mating surface, which larger mating surface means more magnetic force between the bell and the stator, and therefore more torque. Assuming constant volume of motor, then a motor of larger diameter will have shorter magnets, and vice versa. And these two factors essentially cancel out. There are other factors that affect the torque a motor will make, such as the density of the stator laminations, the air gap size, and the strength of the magnets, but on modern multirotor motors, these factors are usually optimized to a limit, and therefore the torque that a motor makes is mostly proportional to its volume.

[@captaindronieversefpv]

This House,situation and condition is so similiar with the map in LiftOff ? correct me if i'm wrong.

[@JoshuaBardwell]

Yep it's my house.

[@rüzgarınadı]

what can I do with my 4 T-MOTOR U5 MOTORS, and idea?

[@junekevinornido]

hey joshua, what's the maximum range of CL35 v2 on DJI FPV goggles v2 with stock antenna?

[@andres.freelancer]

Hello!! Pleeeease take a loot at the new Cinebot30 from GEPRC, I will love to take an unboxing of that drone!

[@MrSabram07]

@joshuabardwell every time I see a video of your yard I can't get over how beautiful your property is

[@christophergran8313]

Hopefully they’ll a release a Cinelog 50 so I use the same batteries of my 5” kwads

[@Aarons14bugs]

I'm interested in using this frame for my analog setup. Is there enough room to put a fc and esc stack in where the (im assuming) single 20x20 bolt hole pattern intended for the air unit? Thanks!

[@mileshkin]

You don't need to take the Vista out to update.. If it is so - Vista has been set up wrong..

[@SigMax71FPV]

Hi, thanks for excellent video! What's your best rates for cinewhoop?

[@vchai84]

iflight protek35 or cinelog 35 ? 😁

[@rongabay7985]

Cinelog 35 or protek35?

[@JoshuaBardwell]

Cinelog.

[@bjerome]

I bought the 6s version and I don't really agree with the durability of the ducts. I broke one just by landing. And changing a duct is quite long. Apart from this it flies pretty well even with a lion 4s and gopro.

[@ShermanKenB]

I have a geprc 2.5 and I frequently break the prop gaurds. While the prop gaurds in this review look a little sturdier, I would always have extras on hand.

[@jakubhoblik]

Great video! I learned something today :) I have my cinelog35 home. It's 4S HD version but when I plug it to betaflight configurator I don't see UART3. Other UARTs 1,2,4,5 are there. Why is this happening because GEP F22-35A AIO has Rx3 and Tx3 pads. I didn't change anything in configuration so far. Thanks

[@jakubhoblik]

I asked GepRC and they replied that they use it for compass. Honestly I don't know what does it mean if the FC has compass inside or it's just ready for me to connect compass. They also mentioned that I can do this resource SERIAL_TX 3 B10 resource SERIAL_RX 3 B11 save probably after this code UART 3 will appear in port tab.

[@proxemiafpv5746]

Would the inverted motors be more prone to pulling in debris since the motor windings are on the intake side rather than the exhaust side?

[@JoshuaBardwell]

I don't think so. The top of the bell is also open so stuff can get in from either side.

[@proxemiafpv5746]

@@JoshuaBardwell thank you sir. Love the content. And I joined your patreon. So I hope you can continue to teach us all you know for years to come!

[@infoaerialmaster]

2004 is also a great size on whoops for the low end of the throttle which is nice for prox flying v freestyle, I don't know the physics of why but for sure the 2004 has better low throttle resolution IMO.. am I wrong?

[@JoshuaBardwell]

Typically when people talk about throttle resolution, what they are probably feeling is a difference in kv not a difference in size or diameter.