How to Make a Great Character Reference Sheet!

[@evaatheria]

Hi guys, sorry I didn't post it in a more clear spot, but the program I use is Paint Tool SAI!

[@starraid_143]

thanks!!

[@kyrar1519]

Would you possibly be open to doing a commission for a reference sheet? I'm not in any way an artist and could never do this haha! Love your art style!!!

[@DoodleDan]

Hope you're doing well

[@FurryFox-yk7us]

I use the same program

[@daisyvayle8738]

My go-to tips when someone asks about ref sheets is: - don’t shade it, causes confusion with markings/colours - show important angles (ie back, front, that spot on the back of their arm or w/e) - keep the written info to a minimum. If you’re using a ref sheet for art (commissions and such) then most people don’t need to know much past base personality and specific traits that would affect art (poses, expressions etc) - list the age, species and gender, it really helps artists. It’s especially difficult to draw something when you can’t tell what the person was trying to draw based on their style alone because people tend to stylize things differently - colour palette, views of inside of mouth, paw pads etc really help. - clear, large enough text without crazy fonts. Simple background that contrasts with text and doesn’t distract. - any alt designs, optionals or outfits. Hope this helps anyone in the comment section, thought I’d put my two cents in haha.

[@sharkbeight]

very helpful! I think I'll use this info next time I make a ref sheet lol

[@sinisterquestionmarkinacti2801]

I really dont wanna tell the age due my character ageing over the story.

[@Dreamsoniacxx]

A little side note I wanna leave, this is optional but you can put shading in your reference sheet, just don't make it too complicated, make the shading simple and importantly, put the colors that you used to shade in the reference sheet and the opacity you used for the shading layer Again, this is optional, it's your decision if you wanna do it, but just wanna leave this here

[@onyx_the_water_dragon3889]

Great tips!!! I even screenshot es them so I can follow them when I draw 😂

[@ivoryphoenix7]

@@sinisterquestionmarkinacti2801This comment’s 4 years old but I’ll comment for other people reading too: I use age categories (ex. Teen, Young Adult, Adult) for my characters rather than specific ages. From a purely reference perspective, specific ages are most useful when a character is a minor, especially a young child, because that’s when they’re growing (and changing the proportions they’d be drawn with) most rapidly.

[@possumpuppy8884]

if you dont care about redesigning your chatacter and just want to know what to do with a reference sheet and how to lay it out or what to include here we go: - if a marking(s) has a specific shape or placement, write that down or draw it plainly so people can see - if hair covers facial markings, point it out - a shot from the back is not always necessary unless you have unseen markings from the front - dont be afraid of a t-pose with marking references - long written portions are discouraged unless its a roleplay character - if you're bad at color theory, go with a white or light tan background. neon backgrounds arent always bad, but unless they contrast with your artwork, please dont use them - DONT SHADE YOUR PIECE even if you include color swatches elsewhere, DONT USE SHADING please oh please.

[@corvidbones7478]

T-poses aggressively

[@corvidbones7478]

@@kevinsmorguns8796 T-poses with more passion and anger

[@assassinscreedreallifepran1080]

@@kevinsmorguns8796 ?

[@aartistanimations5766]

Yes! Please do this, someone once commissioned me and they didn't really have a ref, just other ppls art of the character. Anyways, all of them had one eye covered but I didn't notice, I assumed that it would just be another eye under it... It wasn't, and I made a total of 7 different drawings trying to get what was under the hair correct... So yeah, please do this, it helps a lot!

[@imagenationtown1290]

The character with the blue in her fur is very beautiful

[@Angelectric_609]

As a young dumb artist this is really useful Thank you very much for making this

[@NorthCanis]

When i saw your profile i said TOKOYAMI

[@Angelectric_609]

Sorry I don’t speak anime

[@NorthCanis]

@@Angelectric_609 Some Animes have a English version its called dub a sub is a Japanese one i just wanted go tell you that

[@superstar_tomu]

oof ur not the only young dumb artist xD

[@NorthCanis]

@@superstar_tomu Me? Yeahhhh we both dumb artist's :D

[@crystalvitagliano6381]

“Most neutral pose possible “ Me:T-pose

[@horseconfused]

fumikage tokoyami me too- always using t pose for my ref sheets

[@user-sn4zg8ln3f]

Same-

[@witherwolf3316]

That's a bit more Chaotic Neutral, you gotta bring it down to True Neutral

[@wolfy_playz2475]

pretty neutral if I say so my self

[@reas81aj77]

Who else was motivated to draw a ref sheet while watching this? Edit: holy crap.jpeg this is my most liked comment ever :0 Tysm guys!

[@GhostBubbles_]

Same XD

[@silver_eveeemerald_luigi5302]

YAAA

[@tangledwirezz]

me

[@shattereddreams4385]

mez

[@5erafina93]

Meh, but I’m sat in the bath so I can’t rip

[@otterzen9681]

I didn't even think about the color code thank you.

[@karlmarx1745]

"Keep the design simple" *Gives fursona a shit ton of scarring and a bionic arm*

[@MarioPerez-ng9it]

Can relate.

[@ValkyriesVersion]

it's giving bucky barnes

[@apollodied6891]

No offense but this seem to be a more of "how to make a good character" more than "how to make a good reference sheet" but this was helpful nonless

[@apollodied6891]

Also she forgot to say this but if you're making a reference you should add key interests and personalities and stuff of what they like so if you're getting a commission done the artist can capture the character better, also if it's an animal you should add paw pads separately some where else instead of keeping it hidden and a separate eyes and mouth (fully open) so the commissioner or other people can see and understand better, these are some of my tips

[@evaatheria]

@@apollodied6891 so the reason I did the video this way is because 1. I got this information from a PROFESSIONAL that makes reference sheets all the time, not just for furry stuff. 2. In the furry world writing personality on the sheet seems to be normal, but isn't always necessary. 3. Same thing with putting the paw pads separately, unless theres information that needs to be seen that you need it shown for, there is no reason to put more clutter onto the reference sheet. I made this video for those trying to make professional reference sheets for characters, so yes, that will include tips for designing a good character. Thank you.

[@v0idspamz636]

For me it seemed like both

[@raymeownd]

@@evaatheria you got some salt

[@evaatheria]

@@v0idspamz636 because both are necessary in making a good character reference sheet!

[@YoshTea]

Really helpful!

[@marz7626]

Hi, Yosh!!!

[@yvetteraquepo2317]

Henlo

[@lucid_dreamer1188]

@@kevinsmorguns8796 everyone is gonna ignore the haters.

[@AALIXD]

Kevins Morguns no

[@alienphonicz3858]

Hmm I thought you said you where not a furry

[@SuddenlyOranges]

Wow, this character you're using as an example is adorable. I absolutely love their colors.

[@tobyhall765]

SUDDENLY ORANGES WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE💀💀💀💀💀💀💀

[@TeaLurker]

6:34 glad I'm not the only one who can't spell tongue

[@starlosa]

my one tip: DRAW IT LIKE YOU INTEND TO DRAW IT AGAIN (Basically no hand breakingly complex designs.)

[@glazeliights7025]

Thank you! I once made a ref sheet for my dnd character and one person was like "it looks too flat, why don't you add some shading" and I was like "...this is a reference sheet"

[@DoodleDan]

I'm disappointed... Because you don't have enough subs for such high quality videos you make! *subs*

[@imagenationtown1290]

Wow you must really wanna feed people

[@w0rddissasociation]

@@imagenationtown1290 wut

[@imagenationtown1290]

@@w0rddissasociation im joking XD

[@schookyinzer56]

I’ve been doing art for a while, but I just now got better equipment and now I’m drawing over 60 references that I came up with over the years. Thank you, this will help me a lot.

[@pepperxs]

"Hm? YT recommended me this video, yeah sure..." Me, 2 seconds in the video. "BoI the art though... Teach me the ways of amazingness..."

[@savagefoxgames]

Gracias Gerce I’ll try those tips and see if I can do my pictures right it’s gr8 to get tips from someone who went to art classes

[@mcfreezyu12]

*These are all valid points!* As with simple designs, this is varied as there are plenty of well-known fursonas that are complicated, keep a note of these things if you think yours is complicated! In this case: Give the artist some artistic liberty on random markings (if your species is like that, and you don't have to do this either!) Or, if your species is like mine, (panda german shepherd hybrid of sorts) make sure the markings make sense/are attached to lore. (doesn't have to have lore related markings or any lore at all, this just helps you stay attached to them) Scenario: *if you look at most purebred german shepherd fursonas' you'll see that most of them have a saddleback pattern down to their thighs and to their tails with certain face masks, (which defines them as a german shepherd most times) colors vary of course. BUT, my fursona is a PANDA german shepherd, which adds white to where white should not be, which is something that is passed down from one or two panda shepherds, going on and on to at least one puppy. therefore I still have the saddleback markings with white splotches (and some blue ones, for creativity). This makes logical sense because most panda german shepherds have a semi-complicated design (you don't have to relate/revolve your sona' around what the species stereotype is, but doing so would make your fursona more recognizable. Remember that you shouldn't refrain from having a crazy and wild fursona/fursuit like a sparkle dog, this is just a fair warning that it can be a rocky road along the way, including fursuit expectancy, often broken seams pricing, and artist troubles and pricing, but as said before, you can give the fursuit maker/artist some artistic liberty if you aren't too strict with your pattern choice and not being simple is still okay! To leave this on a higher note, don't worry about too much~ It's okay to be wild and creative, but remember to make the species look similar to what it is supposed to be, being mindful of artists (because the price will go up significantly for quality art/custom design) and your choice of colors and other markings is up to you! (though some stick to natural markings, this is still up to you too) You like what you like, Sailor

[@EpicSiena]

Tip: You should put a white background for your ref sheet, because the makers printer ink will just go ↘️↘️↘️📉📉📉📉

[@ereth2]

You mentioned that in an animation that characters usually are drawn in the same style so they don't look out of place, but have you seen the Amazing World of Gumball? Every character besides the main family is in a different style and it's a good show.

[@rulersreachfan243]

That works because it's meant to happen, but if 99% of the characters are in the same style and then one is different, it'll for sure look out of place

[@taegra]

You see wildly-differing character styles in disney films all the time. Have you seen the style difference between The Red Queen and Alice? Or Ariel and pretty much every other character?

[@madisonslittleworld9580]

Can you do drawing tutorials?:)

[@evaatheria]

i would like to!

[@UNTIORNAL]

Please?????

[@spadetrix6192]

"Just think about that before you go throwing 40 colors of the rainbow onto your fursona" PocariRoo: *Already did that* X^ wow. already 2 likes XD more likes tan I've ever recieved for being a comment :')

[@fallen_vague28]

Pocari has two colors. Blue and white.

[@nefbrite6866]

@@fallen_vague28 R/wooooosh

[@fallen_vague28]

@@nefbrite6866 what does that mean??? I've seen that dozens of times.

[@nefbrite6866]

@@fallen_vague28 Basicly just when you don't get a joke and the "woooosh" Is it going over your head xD

[@fallen_vague28]

@@nefbrite6866 oof. Yep. I do not get the joke.

[@DreamHound]

Hey I really appreciate a calm collective video of really explaining all this stuff. Helped me understand easy and you gave really good examples.

[@WRDCRLTTL]

I know this comment is probably really late, but I'm a newer member of the furry / fursona community, and this was very helpful! Your content is very underrated and I appreciate this a whole lot! Thanks for making this! You earned a new sub!

[@SSquidFishh0]

welcome to the club!

[@abluerainbow]

I really like the furry oc you've drawn here! She's really cute! Do you think you could do a tutorial on anthro muzzles?? I can never get them done right so, i'm scared to become a proper furry bc i can't draw good muzzles yet >.

[@shepherdbrooks7609]

What you're supposed to do that most of us aren't very good at is using references. It's better to reference photos of the actual animal in nature than stylized art. For mythological creatures, reference old Greek paintings and sculptures and stuff, as well as anatomically correct art online.

[@sebastian_tyler]

That’s ok. I can’t draw very good furries let alone animals anyway. I’m still a dedicated furry tho! Although I don’t have a fursuit. •_•

[@justsomenoobnothingtoseehe5319]

@@sebastian_tyler just wanna warn you that not *every* furry need a fursuit,most the community doesnt have fursuits, but....if you want to have one,then its ok. Its not obligatory to have one. to be a furry,you just need to:like anthromorphics animals, and be ok with being called a furry,so its is fine if you dont have money to buy, or not have motivation to make one. just chill,be happy, cuz its alright.

[@sebastian_tyler]

@@justsomenoobnothingtoseehe5319 thank you. by now I've already made my sona into a 3/4 partial

[@justsomenoobnothingtoseehe5319]

@@sebastian_tyler no problem, i hope that you have a very nice experience with the fandom btw, and have a nice day! :)

[@mashimoon5726]

I noticed that many furry artists draw the eyebrows first, the bridge of the nose, and THEN the eyes and the cheek. I've been drawing way too many humans and all my anthro drawings look too humanlike. Overall, I love how you draw anthros bc they maintain their animal features while being bipedal. I have no issues with styles that just put an animal head on a human body, I've done it for a long time. But those Orangina commercials TRAUMATIZED me to the point that I can't even look at them the same anymore. So, I'm taking inspiration from you, artists like you, and movies like Zootopia.

[@evaatheria]

Hey that’s okay! Draw them however you like, I tend to take my inspiration from other furry artists and how animal anatomy would work if they were upright. But there’s no real right or wrong way to draw furries!

[@bepperlenaj9500]

I’m- what the actual hell did I just see. I wish I never had looked up Oragina that is terrifying 😰

[@bw1636]

I am a noob artist, and I usually I want as much wisdom from more experienced artists as possible. I find some (not all) who refuse to share their wisdom just to stay more experienced and don't want competition. So I say, this honestly is VERY helpful and I am grateful. Thank you so very much.

[@Laitech78]

Okay, this was very helpful and it already inspired me to make my fursona a reference sheet after watching the whole video! :) _And yes, this was very helpful in my opinion._

[@swarthylacine]

Also don't forget to write on the reference who made the character design, who made the reference, and who the character is owned by. Even if it is really obvious if you are the one who made the character and art, it will help keep art and character thieves at bay. You should also add "SFW only" on it if you are afraid someone will steal your character to roleplay with it in adult situations, or commission nsfw art of it without your consent.

[@viper7502]

After me attempting to redesign Viper again, I came to watch this video so i can see the tips i need!

[@Chariflare]

This video is really really useful! I've struggled with making usable ref sheets before (someone who tried to draw gift art for me even told me mine weren't useful >.

[@Alpinewolf1]

Thank you, I found this extremely helpful. Personally, my biggest issue is finding a background I like that compliments the character I'm drawing, isn't too simple, yet isn't too busy. Often this will take me the longest to work on and I usually end up unsatisfied with the outcome.

[@blue._.t0ast]

I love and now adore this video! Thank you for helping me and also you have an amazing art style!

[@hey_wolf]

Thank you for the advice! I usually do flat colour for actual design that I would be referencing off, but then I have a little pose or headshot that is shaded, just to add a nice pop of colour, and is helpful for commissioning artists and or they have glowing features.

[@unknownunicorn567]

Lovely how this is the first thing that pops up when I was looking for a video to watch while making a ref sheet, lol. 😸

[@travisnewbry]

Correction: DO copy others. It's a good way to learn new techniques if you have a specific thing you are focusing on. Just don't try to pass it off as your own

[@therealnshrainworldtrust]

I’m only new to gerce, and I already love her intro, her oc, her voice, and her art style.

[@evaatheria]

thats very nice thank you! :D

[@lynxwuff]

*Dont add 40 colours of the rainbow onto your design or make it to complicated* Sparkle dogs: o-o

[@keaton9281]

I didn't realize who's channel this was until I came to comment. That's a really cute character too.

[@MysticalSky1]

"You dont need horns, wings or a fancy tail." Well shit.

[@dannibruh6366]

off topic, but your inking is so satisfying to watch

[@yourlocalabbe7629]

"Keep it simple" BeautyOfTheBass: *Make it tricky. Nothing simple.*

[@muffinmom8362]

ALSO I ASK FOR A DIFFRENT REF IF ITS SHADED..I CANOT HANDLE SHADED MARKINGS IM LIKE WHAT WHERE WHO WAT Ugh I love your art i really aspire to be as great as you *sigh* i hope i forever get to see your adorable art

[@CatchBurning]

Thank you so much for your advice, Gerce. They're gonna help me a lot with improving my characters designs. 😁

[@DeathxStrike18]

3 poses are best for commission front/back and side and A or T pose is prefered Arms removed from side view and Tail removed from back view Do not remove ears unless they obscure a feature like horns then only remove the closest. As a 3D artist myself its best for not only geting details but proportions right for a commission and makes it easier for rigging to make an animation, game character, or even for simple posing. Even with normal animals I prefer 3 views as close to orthographic as possible for realistic proportions.

[@StaticWyvern]

Oh my goodness, your linework and colors are so crisp and clean!

[@venumbra1177]

Very informative with an adorable character :3 What canvas size would you recommend working with when creating a reference sheet?

[@ale_severo]

I shade in the refsheet to some clients, because "the light reacts diferent". Nice video

[@MustyShroomOfTheLoom]

This was a very well put together video with a lot of good points. Especially for someone like me that is new to the fandom

[@Lupiterz]

This is SO HELPFUL! I never even knew about the increment tool or adding hex codes! Your voice is also super clear and the way you say things is so helpful ^.^

[@alexf8279]

Congrats on passing 3.000 subscribers!

[@Ramen_Bean22]

Your tips are very helpful! Thank you! I look forward to your future videos.

[@fen_norsewolf]

I thought this was a really good tutorial :D it helped me nail down what I needed!

[@goose-7896]

Thank you for the tips! I'm currently working on character designs for an upcoming webcomic and this really helped out with the character sheets!

[@purouwu1134]

I realized many things I did wrong and it was actually really helpful!

[@shadeymations9580]

As a first timer for making a ref sheet this was very helpful thank you! OwØ

[@Balqis-vq2yw]

I've been struggling with making ref sheets for my human oc's and furry oc's so thanks for the helpful video!

[@extremeanimationz6301]

Thanks for creating this video it had helped me so much I don't know what I would do for a reference sheet without this video.

[@xxzeokixx939]

she is so adorable :0 (I am making a ref sheet for my friend at school)

[@sagie4615]

I really strugglewith making character refs, but this helped so much!!! I didn't even consider the fact that shading shouldn't be included :3

[@siiluviilu]

Also i'd mention this If the ref is for illustrative purposes, i'd add a lot of character to...the character If that makes sense For example their posture, expressions etc, they work way better than dull refs which make the character seem a tad shallow You should be able to tell what their personality is like just by the drawings

[@evaatheria]

I agree with your statement saying you should be able to tell their personality just from the personality. Though, in the professional world character sheets need to be simple and straightforward. I asked my animation professor who has worked with Hazbin Hotel and other animation studios the question of "what should a reference sheet look like?" and he showed me that the more simple and less cluttered the better. Only show what is necessary, you shouldn't clutter the page with random expressions unless it features a part of the character that changes due to mood etc. like a special glow eye that only shows up when mad or something.

[@Lunawolf44]

I love your art style!

[@ottahsqueesh2568]

This was actually the greatest video I've ever seen, thank you for making it!

[@evaatheria]

OttahSqueesh I’m glad you think so!! It means a lot to hear it.

[@kippershiba]

I made myself a new ref sheet just now! Thanks for the tips :D

[@marz7626]

I think it's so cool that you graduated from an art school!!! You are a very great artist and thanks for the video!!

[@freezy_14]

This video helped me out a lot when I was making my reference sheet, Thank you so much Gerce!

[@666racc]

oHH MY GODD i love your art style!!!

[@sistersd7704]

Cute! I love her! She looks cute and colorful!

[@gggcfth6288]

How do you not have more subs what the heck well ima sub and like and share

[@evaatheria]

Thank you so much!

[@cutiekai6183]

oh my gosh i remember watching this video in 2018! so nostalgic

[@shellshadowthehybrid9382]

Gosh, this video was so helpful! it really helped me with my OC's designs ^^

[@berriibee5751]

omg thank you so much i always shaded my refs because i thought “it will look plain, weird and stupid if i don’t shade it” i can understand now why it might be confusing

[@matchavtea]

this helped me a lot! I didn't know what to do when I was drawing a ref. Thank you!

[@joshuashakir2772]

i actually was wondering on how to make a reference sheet for a character, not really much design. But you had good tips

[@emilyl3145]

Your fursona reminded me of club penguin alot

[@casualbughorse]

Coloring tutorial :D

[@cottageram3447]

YESS

[@lyras.9752]

Your voice is so soothing 💜

[@migsmoo]

Watching you draw is so nice 🥰

[@anti9659]

Gerce’s reason not to get hate “I’m a graduate with a something something so I’m pretty sure my tips are way better and helpful than others”

[@Theartisticyoshi]

Well, yeah, I’d say that’s pretty valid. If you spent multiple years in art school with a degree surrounding art, you’re bound to pick up a few more helpful tips, or at least those helpful tips faster, than those who are self-taught. Of course, this depends on the quality of the school, and no one is stopping the students from sharing the tips they learned in school to self-taught artists via the internet. These tips are just general rules that have been used for many years by those who create character designs as a job. Of course, that doesn’t mean everyone is obligated to follow these tips, after all, art was meant to take on multiple forms. However, this video seems to be aimed for artists looking at the more professional side.

[@willmarx3182]

This helped me sooooo much! Thank you!

[@Limbocats]

The thing about simplicity is, too simple and all of a sudden it looks like every other basic oc/fursona like a grey and white wolf It’s simple But if you where to throw it in the mainstream it would blend in But a grey, blue, purple, green, and tan wolf with a collar and some headphones would definitely make it stand out against the crowd, and you can even keep it simple at that too

[@evaatheria]

You’re right, though being simple isn’t a bad thing, some people don’t want to have a complicated character design. But I agree with you, throw in something unique into their design that makes them stand out!

[@timtam.]

I've been to Sanibel island Florida, it's really sunny, I lived there for a month and it didn't rain or fog once!

[@loneshadow0844]

Oh thank you so much. This will help me create my first fursona.

[@muted__dreamer]

This is really helpful! Tysm! I'm now going to make good refs of Swift and Kona! Kona isnt known to anyone but myself but imma change that!!!

[@Za_Panda]

this video helped so much!!! thank you. I'm def subbing for more art videos like this

[@_AllisonRae_]

Tysm for these tips! I have some concerns with my two very important Fursonas..mostly because I rarely see people with these animals as their Fursonas. For months I’ve been looking for a reference sheet of my liking or one at all for my Fursonas. One is a female grizzly bear, and one is a Male Domestic Duck. I can’t ever find any reference sheets of ducks that are good AT ALL which makes me extremely sad :< But, that has nothing to do with this video. Your tips are very helpful none the less!

[@dummy9226]

Thanks! This Was VERY Helpful! Great Video!!

[@kassounade6998]

That's a super cute video! Thank you for being so sweet such Good Work ♥♥♥!

[@user-jl3qf1se1u]

This is really good. It helped me learn more of the basics! Keep it up!!!!

[@SynthLizard8]

Great video, I gotta say, I'm working on my ref sheet now of my gecko Scalesona and was tempted to pretty him up with shading. Also this is just some friendly advice, I know you didn't have ill-intent but it's generally a good rule to steer clear from appeal to authority by saying "I'm well educated on the matter so I know what I'm talking about", I understand the intent but that can come off as pretentious to some people, just putting it out there.

[@Dtorori]

Aaahhhh your character is so pretty!

[@spacecat_scribbles]

Thanks for the sai selection tip!

[@WindWill29]

Tysm for the tips I've only been a furry for like a few months and I'm still trying to find good drawing tips tysm u r the best 🥲🥲🥲🥲🥲

[@mellirose1957]

Hi Gerce. This video help so much thank you. Your art inspires me to get better with my own and you art style is so cute. 😊💖

[@StarFluffyTail]

I really liked the points you made in the video!! I’m terrible when it comes to reference sheets, so this helped me a lot :) Could you do a tips and tricks video for the program Sai?

[@Crackerheadcatz]

Tips that I have if your in the comment section: - never copy! - use as many colors if you want to! - make cool designs - don’t shade at all - do your research on your fursona species -add their name/gender/ and species -show their hands/mouth/eyes ( if detailed/covered) Hoped this helped!

[@theomoment]

This is really helpful! I’m not even a furry but this is still great advice for my OC’s refs!

[@PaHa4113]

I would say that the style of drawing should not be the thing that defines the character. Your character should be okay to betray in any style, because its not the style that matters in the end, its about the design. But in the refsheet part i agree. You need to know what art style you want in your refsheet. it would be prefered that it tells all it needs. So for a character that has really special face features, you shouldn't get an artist that often draws the same type face ( i have seen a lot of those... ) or body..

[@beanie.s1844]

Omigosh thank you so much I was just making a ref sheet and I was looking for help thankss