Get the NEW BetterSax Alto for $50!

[@amay.clarinet]

$50 for rental is a great deal. I bought the original Bettersax Alto and love it! Very even and very light. You're doing great work, Jay!

[@bettersax]

Awesome! Thank you!

[@Raine_R]

This is genuinely incredible, my band was looking for a new Alto sax on a budget. Looks like we just found it!

[@AlanFoothillsAV]

I've owned one of the original Bettersax altos for over a year now and I really like it. It's my first (and possibly last) alto. Also, most of the music gear I've bought has come from Sweetwater, and they continue to earn my business with their amazing, personalized customer service and unbeatable same-as-cash financing options. In some ways it's like they've become the Amazon of music stores, only much much better. And Jay, thank you for all you're doing to get your wonderful videos and instruments into the hands, heads and hearts of more people. You're helping to fuel a very affordable saxophone renaissance. C'est un merveilleux héritage à laisser à la prochaine génération.

[@bettersax]

Thank you, much appreciated. Happy to hear you are enjoying your BetterSax alto.

[@Cysubtor_8vb]

Even though I've moved into an apartment that makes practicing sax less convenient, I'm still waiting on the BetterSax Baritone 😂

[@bettersax]

Coming soon.

[@profmathers00]

@@bettersaxwell that just made my whole day

[@grandesax]

@@bettersax👏

[@kwamealievergreen4257]

I thought it was going to be $50 for a giveaway entry, which I hate. Glad it's $50 for a rental, continuing to make instruments and learning music more accessible for people. Love it.

[@Nn-uh2kb]

That would never happen, because it would be illegal! Lottery law.. sweepstakes entries must be free.

[@aarongrooves]

I literally ordered the BetterSax Alto on Monday (should arrive this weekend), and my heart temporarily sunk when I saw this video in my subs, thinking I might have to return it already for a better BetterSax. But seems like it's not a loss. Not yet at least. But now I'm wondering, is this much better than the original BetterSax? Any upcoming videos breaking down the differences?

[@bettersax]

The tradition is for rent only. The price of the BetterSax alto you ordered will be going up soon so you made a very good purchase. You will be very happy with that horn I’m sure. When the for sale version of our intermediate horn comes out there will be a breakdown of all the differences.

[@nenadzidic1371]

Congratulations on your wonderful new alto saxophone! I especially like that it's a normal gold color (I'm not a heavy gold color fan).

[@dawsonfrance3804]

This is amazing. After watching students have to deal with faulty saxophones it’s nice to see an affordable option where they’ll have a saxophone working for them not against them.

[@Aaron-Qman]

WOW! Sweetwater just got sweeter with more Better Saxes😉🎷🔥🎉🎷 Definitely will look into the rental program! What a game changer!

[@yolioms]

Waytogo! Jay! & Sweetwater!! I’m stoked for our kids!!🎉🎉

[@Darrylbpoagent]

Thank you for your work sir. I am picking up this Sax again after 20 years. I will take advantage of this. Bless you for your great channel.

[@bettersax]

Great!

[@brianpite0893]

Rocky Point? I lived there many years ago. Very cool. That rental program sounds excellent!

[@georgefurlow1]

This is going to change things in the music rental world.

[@MrDude667]

And put mom and pops out of business..

[@beckyn9338]

Wow! What a deal! It really does seem too good to be true. Well done, Jay and Sweetwater!!

[@apinakapinastorba]

That sounds like a really cool system to have to educate music students with good gear. Wish we had something like this available.

[@gusmarrero]

amazing, thanks for doing this for students

[@Cubsfan122112]

when's the soprano coming out?

[@Dr.RolyndDellaSylvan]

@BetterSax Is your new “Tradition” Alto a step up from your original Better Sax alto? Is the “Tradition” an Intermediate/entry-level professional ?… the original Alto was Beginner/Entry level ? Thank you for your amazing products and dedication! -Dr D

[@bettersax]

Yes exactly.

[@Dr.RolyndDellaSylvan]

@@bettersax ORDERED via Sweetwater 🎷❗️ Easy process: took 2 minutes. Thank you again Mr. Metcalf for your dedication to the art form as well as your artistry. - Dr D

[@kurthewell7304]

Just rented one for my daughter in the 8th grade. She currently plays a Yamaha Yas 23. hope it is better or at least compares. Final rental price is a bit of a shock but to have it covered with insurance it could be cheap.

[@bettersax]

Fantastic! I'm sure she will love it.

[@Tonedwhistle844]

What is final rental price

[@mattbrown8139]

Sadly looks like they aren't doing the 3 months anymore. A good rental price either way I suppose but I was really hoping to get the 3 month trial.

[@devakari8347]

I originally was extremely skeptical of the BetterSax Alto when it first came out. (I still don't own one). I've watched many reviews, including Dave Pollacks side-by-side comparison with a Selmer Mark VI (which everyone interested should go watch), and the idea of it is growing on me. I've been playing Sax for 8 years, professionally for 2 of them, and I've been stuck with an intermediate horn since rent and all regular expenses cost so much, but after seeing all of these ways to make these instruments affordable, and the overwhelmingly positive reviews on them, I think I might just buy one. Since I haven't owned one, I can't recommend it personally, but based on what I've seen, and the consistency and trustworthiness Jay has developed with the online community over the last many years, I believe it's a great deal. Thanks Jay for making great instruments affordable, this is something the saxophone community has needed for a long time.

[@jraderstorf]

I got the Tradition to teach my son. His school doesn't do wind instruments till next year but he wants to learn now. I played saxophone in high school and still have my Selmer Super Action 80 II. The Tradition plays extremely well and the response is phenomenal. I might actually like playing on the Tradition more! My son really enjoys it and wants me to give him a lesson as soon as he gets home from school. I remember struggling to form certain notes when I was a beginner but he can hit them with ease. I believe a lot of it has to do with the quality of this saxophone. Will there be a tenor version? I really want a tenor version as soon as it comes out!

[@puddinTane760]

I literally just bought one off of Sweetwater not ten minutes ago. I was on my laptop ALL day trying to decide between this and a Yamaha 26. I had a Yamaha adii before and it was quite good.....but after watching multiple videos of the Better Sax (alto and Tenor) the sound is crazy good. I hope it lives up to the great reviews. Jay Metcalf is a great player and I'm going to trust his hand in the creating of this particular sax. I got the bundle with the better sax mouthpiece and Jody Jazz Power ring. Looking forward to playing it.

[@bettersax]

You’re going to love the horn mouthpiece and ligature I’m sure. Congratulations

[@cG-es8mb]

I looked online and it has mouthpiece 5 and 7. What does that mean? I’m a beginner looking to learn the alto sax

[@TheGewidener]

Hi Jay. Just curious. In the video a Better Sax mouthpiece is shown. My son’s came with a Rousseau. The funny thing is that I videoed the opening of the box, and the ligature was still on the mouthpiece. I said,” the mouthpiece looks remarkably like a 90s Rousseau mouthpiece. Then I noticed that it actually was a Rousseau. I didn’t even know they still made them. I’m happy with it, but I was super curious what the Bettersax pieces were like. I’m super impressed with the horn. There is NO EXCESS SOLDER ANYWHERE. I have seen Cannonballs and other lower priced saxes with tons of extra solder and filing marks everywhere, and the fit and finish of the Tradition is excellent. It played right out of the box like a Yanagisawa. I would suspect that they all look and play exactly the same, unlike some horns where three play well and two need tons of setup or just aren’t as good. It’s very consistent with no leaks or loose keys. The case is sturdy and closes well. My three month was $31 in Maryland then $50 a month thereafter. I got the service warranty as well. They CALLED me to let me know it was shipping. I seriously was looking for an email, but they personally called me. Then I got texts with shipping updates. The service was excellent and everything was exactly as Jay described in his video. Thank you! I wish there was a soprano.

[@brfan6750]

Hey Jay, thanks for putting this together. Do you happen to know what the full price of this horn will be? Thanks.

[@bettersax]

You have to check with Sweetwater for this because it depends on a few details, but they allow you to either rent it for a predetermined number of months to acquire ownership, or to purchase the instrument early at a 25% discount of the remaining balance.

[@squidwerd1981]

Ordered mine today... can't wait to try it out😊

[@mattbrown8139]

Were you able to get the 3 month trial?

[@squidwerd1981]

@@mattbrown8139 no

[@ScottPaddock]

Congrats Jay!

[@Aaron-Qman]

@@ScottPaddock Hey Scott! Just wanted to say I love your channel! Thanks to you I ordered the Barkley Brazil Kustom Pop 7 for all of my Saxes! I'm loving these mouthpieces! 🎷🔥🎵 Altissimo has never been easier!

[@bettersax]

Thank you Scott.

[@simojazzy3497]

Not available in UK?

[@samuelsiler-io1yy]

Just got my rental set up! Can’t wait to try it!

[@bettersax]

Awesome! Enjoy it.

[@roronoazoro36]

been wanting to play sax for a while, but im a trombone player, I am definately buying this

[@filipposantoro8830]

Fantastic! Is the a BetterSax Tenor option as well?

[@bettersax]

Not yet but working on it.

[@cromartic]

Hello Jay! I love your videos and your courses! I have a quick question for you. I'm practicing the exercises on your "core essential" course but there's a problem...when I play the "5 notes major scale" exercise faster (sixteenths) my fingers stiffen. What could I do? Have a nice day, and keep going! 🎷💪

[@bettersax]

Best is to slow the tempo down to where you can play it very relaxed. Speed comes from being relaxed, not from practicing fast which I know seems odd.

[@cromartic]

@@bettersax Thank you! I will do it! 🎷

[@manuelvalencia9407]

Great rental program. I remembered back in the 80's, I paid the same around the same for a used Yamaha 23. However, the contract had some cancellation fees if I wanted to cancerl earlier than the set contract term. This is so much better and I've heard some great things about this instrument, too. Thanks for your video. I always look forward to them and your advice. Just one question about this rental program. Is this program just in the US, or will Sweetwater be teaming up with music stores around the world? I'm in Japan, and I've been watching your videos for years. BTW, I'm an American, living in Japan.

[@bettersax]

Thank you! Rental program is only for US.

[@starryradiofm]

hey mr bettersax, are you gonna make a soprano saxophone for the line up?

[@ericking9061]

Love it

[@jameseason8206]

It looks like the final purchase price would be about $3000 -- much more than buying it. I understand the benefits and reduction of risk of renting for new students. I guess the "trick" is to rent it and if the student is serious and dedicated, return the rental and purchase new?

[@bettersax]

You have to check with Sweetwater for this because it depends on a few details, but they allow you to either rent it for a predetermined number of months to acquire ownership, or to purchase the instrument early at a 25% discount of the remaining balance.

[@abielferrin913]

Does the personal renter category get the same price benefits?

[@BAMac964]

Yes. I rented my stepup sax a month ago under the personal rental and everything he stated was the same.

[@bettersax]

Yes

[@masteryingyang69]

What's the difference between this and the original bettersax?

[@bettersax]

This is an upgraded "intermediate" level horn. We like to give great value though and I consider this to be an entry-level pro player.

[@allanjmcpherson]

It's a shame the rental program isn't available in Canada. I understand why not, but it sure would be nice to try it out without having to buy it. Hopefully someday you can get distribution to a Canadian retailer (probably Long & McQuade).

[@Elias_edits1]

Just a quick question about the saxophone. Does it have a wide octive key?

[@Elias_edits1]

I just have a question about the octave key. Does it have a wide octave key because I really don't like saxophones that have skinny octave keys I prefer wide octave key and if not then can I get one with a wide octave key

[@ibello777]

i’m a sophomore in a marching/symphonic band and my AS400 has a few leaks so the tradition is really tempting me. i heard that you’ll be releasing another alto in the future, are there any unique differences? should i wait?

[@squidwerd1981]

Just got mine today. It's a beautiful horn! A true pro horn at an monthly cost of $40 (in Texas). I may just buy it from Sweetwater and not return it. It was valued at $2,635 but with the 25% off early payoff it comes out to $1,976. That is a good price for a horn of this quality. I highly recommend!!!

[@kittykittysoftpaws]

They told you 2600 for the traditional alto? Weird im switching my rental from a tenor to the alto better sax and they told me the MSRP was around 900

[@squidwerd1981]

@@kittykittysoftpaws the rental agreement says $2,635 as the cash price. The rental price is going to be higher than buying it outright. Remember they gotta make profit.

[@staceylewisdesigns]

@@kittykittysoftpaws You may also want to check and see if you got the tradition because the cash price of the EAS112 is $899. That's the one they sell and is a step below the tradition from what I've read and the questions I've asked. Since you should have it by now I'd love to hear what you found out.

[@kittykittysoftpaws]

@@staceylewisdesigns thank u, I ended up ending the rental contract for the tenor, i already own an alto and wasn't really looking to buy an alto at this time.

[@aurelpetrov3006]

When by Thomann????!!!!

[@TheSaxMan-k5k]

Is this option available for tenor as well?

[@bettersax]

Not yet. Hopefully next year.

[@chukarcory74]

Do you have to be a student to get this deal?

[@chukarcory74]

Ordered one. Can't wait to see how it plays! PS...you don't have to be a student.

[@bettersax]

Anyone can rent one of these. Same price and conditions.

[@machinegundroner9411]

Too bad they don't rent out bari saxes. I'm looking for a pro level bari for my college kid. Any ideas where I can get one?

[@realtherealz4568]

So how much money until I'm finished paying it off

[@Lxnv-rl9kp]

Hey man I just started 4 months ago and arl made it into jazz band and almost all county but I’m playing on a 165 dollar saxophone from Walmart I want to switch to tenor can u make that rental too if not all good thx for this means soo much have a good rest of your day..❤❤❤

[@bettersax]

We don’t have the tenor version yet but are working on it.

[@deaconblues3964]

Do you guys have a Tenor version and ship to Toronto?

[@stevencobraR]

Just secured mine! Can’t wait!

[@bettersax]

Great!

[@cG-es8mb]

What’s the difference between this one and the classic?

[@nejcjeran-pirih1292]

Hi, it sounds amazing, but was wondering how is it, if you are european?

[@idk53062]

hey bettersax, i love the neck style and i want one for my selmer as-42-ul unlacquered alto saxophone, which i haven't seen anyone review them☹️. But the neck is silver and i wanted a new one if your neck style. Do you have a silver neck??🙏🙏

[@ibello777]

what is the full price of the saxophone?

[@bettersax]

You have to check with Sweetwater for this because it depends on a few details, but they allow you to either rent it for a predetermined number of months to acquire ownership, or to purchase the instrument early at a 25% discount of the remaining balance.

[@theepichamster1443]

What is the total price of an alto saxophone?

[@SaxLex1]

8 50

[@bettersax]

You have to check with Sweetwater for this because it depends on a few details, but they allow you to either rent it for a predetermined number of months to acquire ownership, or to purchase the instrument early at a 25% discount of the remaining balance.

[@Tonedwhistle844]

If someone could help me I want to no the price of bettersax tradition in Texas no upgrades can someone tell me

[@Kelekona_808]

Would have jumped on this option, but no service in the 50th state... Great option for those in the contiguous 48.

[@ibello777]

y’all have good pizza though so don’t feel bad

[@alziteq5367]

Is the tenor a great choice too?

[@kwamealievergreen4257]

I've heard good things about it, a little more money a month but it's the same program where they ship a replacement next day, help cover repairs, etc.

[@patemblen3644]

Hi Jay, it looks great. I'm curious how many screw adjusters you have on the action an all of these Better Sax models? Also, what's it cost to freight to Australia?

[@RigboneBeams]

we need a bettersax suprano please 😅

[@bettersax]

Coming soon.

[@jongrishpul607]

Why isn't the deal in California as good as the deal in NY?!

[@charlescdt6509]

OHHH any plans to do a Soprano version?

[@Loopyfool]

What are the chances of you releasing a bettersax soprano?

[@bettersax]

100% it is coming soon.

[@Loopyfool]

@@bettersax I'm so excited. Do you know roughly what the price with be yet?

[@kingsleyesaah8753]

Hello Jef, I would like to to know the amount left to be paid to purchase the instrument after the 3month rent period? Thank you Sir

[@bettersax]

you can check this with Sweetwater at any time. It is in the contract before you purchase as well so you will know the exact amount. It does vary slightly depending on your location so you must check with them.

[@kwootamuckbear9294]

How much to just buy it out right rather than lease with option to buy🤔🎵🎶🎷

[@bettersax]

The Tradition will only be for rent, but we have another version of this horn that will be for sale coming soon.

[@ibello777]

@@bettersaxdoes this horn come with a neck strap?

[@homerbote9835]

How to get that one.

[@sarahmicklewright]

Only available in the US?

[@bettersax]

Yes, the tradition is only available in US and as a rental. We have another version of this horn that will be for sale everywhere soon.

[@racl1954]

Hi Jay. Thank you for all that you contribute for us sax lovers. This information on the Tradition Alto in this video is somewhat confusing. I have just purchased the original Bettersax Alto 112 in England UK. Not really a bargain in the UK as the £ to dollar price equates to $1065 which is 52% more than what USA buyers pay at the current $699.00 from Sweetwater. I have come across this video for the new Bettersax Tradition where it is only available on rental in the USA. It is being indicated here that the Traditional is a better instrument than the original. Is this correct. If this is correct maybe I should consider returning my Bettersax 112 Alto and wait for the retail version of the Tradition. Buyers obviously like to buy the best they can for their $. Would be good if you could tell us what the differences are rather than us having to wait for the retail version to be available. PS. Is the same thing planned for the Bettersax Tenor. Is there going to be a Tradition version of this as well ?. The reason I am asking is I was looking to buy the Bettersax Tenor as well.

[@bettersax]

Hi thanks for your interest and for our purchasing the BetterSax alto. Keep in mind that tax is not included in the price in US. 20% of the price in UK is TVA. The new tradition alto saxophone is not a student level instrument. It is a different category that is much more expensive. When the for sale version comes out it will be priced competitively with other intermediate saxophones in that category. Availability in the UK won’t be until sometime in 2025.

[@racl1954]

@@bettersax Hi Jay. Thanks for your very quick reply. Adding VAT for the UK and considering the cost of shipping makes more more sense of the higher price we pay in the UK. Thanks for pointing that out. I have to add I love this Bettersax Alto. I have some nice instruments to compare it against like my Conn 6M Ladyface and a Trevor James signature custom and it really does hold it's own against them. Lovely tone and playability. I have just ordered the Bettersax Tenor from Sax Ltd in the UK. Can't wait for it to turn up. The cognac lacquer also looks stunning. Please consider keeping the cognac lacquer as an option for the new Bettersax Tradition range. I will be looking at one of those as well when they become available in the UK.

[@staceylewisdesigns]

Ordered via sweetwater today. Will wait to see if I keep it for good because of the high overall price. Since the Yamaha YAS 26 is close to the same price it seems comparable but is this bettersax that much better than the original? That’s what I’ll be looking for. If it’s indeed an intermediate/entry level professional then I think it’s ok but I actually thought it was stated that the original bettersax was the same.

[@bettersax]

This is a significant upgrade from the original "Classic" BetterSax alto. No contest with the YAS 26 as far as I'm concerned. The Tradition is a clear winner there. I am sure you will love it.

[@staceylewisdesigns]

@@bettersax thanks so much for the response. I’m also now signed up in your website and forums.

[@Tonedwhistle844]

What is the overall price

[@staceylewisdesigns]

⁠@@Tonedwhistle844I wouldn’t be able to answer since Sweetwater prices their instruments individually based on several factors. They upgrade the mouthpiece to a significantly better mouthpiece so that affects the price individually and as the program continues the price could vary based on new or used, insurance and so on. All I can say is I’ve played it against the Yamaha 480 for some time now as tried it at a store vs the P Mauriat Le Bravo. This tradition was the easiest and most comfortable to play of the 3 and has the most pro level features as Jay mentioned. It really is an entry level Pro horn. I put it on par with the Yamaha YAS480 which is really the older YAS62 with some upgrades. That’s saying a lot for the Tradition. It’s truly excellent for an intermediate level horn. Not sponsored just sharing my experience.

[@Tonedwhistle844]

@@staceylewisdesigns and buy high overall price do you mean high rental price or high price for not renting

[@josefinascheffer]

When will we be able to buy the tradition alto sax?

[@bettersax]

You can rent it from Sweetwater and then pay it off right away. That would be the only way to buy one. We do have a for sale version of this horn coming soon though. It will have a few special little upgrades.

[@SaxLex1]

My Grassi have an amazing sound too and this is only for america...

[@diegomena9453]

I need this program, but i need rent a Bari Sax 😭😭😭

[@EzequiasBush]

Is it the same deal with the bettersax Tenor ?

[@bettersax]

The Tradition is a for rent only saxophone. The BetterSax Classic is for sale but not available for rent.

[@kwootamuckbear9294]

What’s next🤔 An actual Bettersax VI…Does have a certain ring to it though☮️🎶🎵🎷

[@kevinashe384]

I have the last version of the better sax Is this an update?

[@bettersax]

This is a different category of saxophone and is only available as a rental.

[@baribbenson531]

So what is the total amount you pay if you want to keep it?

[@bettersax]

You have to check with Sweetwater for this because it depends on a few details, but they allow you to either rent it for a predetermined number of months to acquire ownership, or to purchase the instrument early at a 25% discount of the remaining balance.

[@GJLeaver]

Hey Jay , always appreciate your sage tutorial video guidance over the years ! Many thanks . Sorry to say, this comes across a click bait. The promotion title being “ alto for 50 bucks “ . Well who would not this deal for a quality instrument that you personally endorse ? [ Of we know better ]. The 50 bucks is just and only a monthly rent to own contract agreement that every music instrument store offers. Which has been around for many years. Sorry if I am missing something - went through your info quickly. But if you have a chance , could you please explain the difference between your offer and what every music instrument store has offered for years ? Again sorry if I missed some significant difference in your video presentation. Oh and why the seemingly solicitous title “ an alto for 50 bucks” ? Many thanks for clarifying.

[@bettersax]

Thanks for watching. I cover the details in the video and at the link in the description you can get even more details that may not have been mentioned in the video. This is a for rent only saxophone. It is not for sale. Most states get the first 3 months for less than $50 actually.

[@GJLeaver]

@@bettersax Okay thanks Jay for clarifying , I think now I misunderstood your presentation & offering. Sorry to have been harsh. Again your generous tutorials , lessons, workshops, tips etc. are very much appreciated. Many thanks . [ really enjoyed your Yani factory tour video ! Learned a lot - I play only a sop Yani ]

[@sarangevents6844]

Want to buy ....❤

[@IsharaWickramathunga]

Iam from sri lanka. can I buy an alto

[@aneshrajkumar1075]

I hope I wont be disappointed in purchasing one.

[@bettersax]

This sax is for rent only. We have another for sale version coming soon.

[@myamymy9107]

@bettersax will the sale one be affordable as well Like this one?

[@DerekWheatley]

So us in the UK are screwed then

[@stevencobraR]

Is this still made by bundy?

[@bettersax]

No this is made 100% by BetterSax.

[@GinaeMcDonald]

Dude, what an incredible deal! Seriously, though, the background music is entirely too loud. Just sayin'...

[@paulkazachenko]

That's awesome

[@majiyagbeoluwaseyi9749]

Wow😮💫

[@robertflores6927]

I was excited for a minute; my sax was stolen last month :/

[@ADF-fe7fv]

Seems like a really cool deal. However, l would just buy it outright for that price. Nuff said.

[@tehshzz]

$50 per month is not the same as "get the NEW betterSax Alto for $50"

[@joshc-tt7ev]

Doesn't music and arts do this? Granted theirs is 3 months not one month trial period. David fuhr worked for music and arts at one point and this sounds just like that.

[@billynugget1256]

Excuse me what.

[@Alexxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx87]

Why no mother of pearls?

[@MaclinJ]

bettt

[@azgaming5111]

What!?

[@2saxy-l5w]

what about the canadian folks

[@regurgitationstation960]

Ummm why can’t we own it? The rental price sounds like a great deal but why not make more money from full purchases AND rentals?

[@bettersax]

For purchase model is on the way. You can rent this one and then opt to purchase your rental at any time.

[@ibello777]

⁠@@bettersaxby “model”, do you mean it will be a slightly different horn or will just be available to purchase?

[@Certainly-somebody]

Me who lives in Europe 😅

[@kwootamuckbear9294]

☮️🎵🎶🎷

[@thomasschwall77]

Well done mate ! As a « Français » and knowing you live in France any plans to do the same in Gauls ? Just poking… I know unfortunately Sweetwater is not at same cost and service in Europe . Found many cool possibilities with sweetwater but never in France Maybe a business agreement with Thomann… Not gonna happen anytime soon yes I know Just doing the smarty pants Good on you anyway. You will make a real difference for young US musicians Be well You are great Best Thomas (a proper fan and proficient hobbyist sax man around your age) I am pretty sure you fixed my BA selmer around 2004 in NY but of course you wouldn’t remember And I could be wrong . I was a Bob Mover student back then

[@ludareinoso381]

h u hh