Getting the midrange in a $20K speaker right

[@ahlbergmagnus]

I´m "Magnus from Sweden" who asked the question in this video. Thank you Paul and everyone who gave good and useful information and tips in the comments (except for a few condescending comments, I guess there will always be a few people like that)! My speakers are three way floor standing speakers, but I do not feel like naming them since I´m not sure if it is the speakers, the room, or perhaps my preference, and I don't want to give them an unjust bad rep. I can however add that I have an Accuphase C-2150 preamp with tone controls and if I increase the bass a little with the 100hz tone selector button active, the midrange sounds great, but now the low end is a little too much instead. So I seem to have a dip in the low midrange in relation to the low end. I plan to try both room treatment and DSP to fine tune this and then I think it will sound great. I also bought Pauls book The Loudspeaker with the companion audio files to see if I can do more work with speaker adjustments. At the moment I prefer the somewhat boomy bass with the tone controls active over a thin midrange, but of course with DSP and/or room treatment that should be possible to fine tune. I am considering buying a MiniDSP SHD Studio with Dirac as a start. Then I can measure my room and identify the problem and also do small adjustments. I know Paul are not an advocate of Dirac but I think it might be worth a try if used moderately.

[@nonyabeezwax6932]

Did you try different sources? Like phono ,CD etc in my experience source and recording are 60% of the end result

[@MichaelLivingston-me]

Either DSP can work for you or I still find useful, a graphic equalizer, giving me a finer tuning range on adjusting what comes through a bit stronger.

[@sickjohnson]

Best of luck Magnus! I'm with Paul on this one, people who are serious about mids tend to think 99% fail at it and for me I am slowly starting to see their point. I have only seen 2 brands in person ever do mids justice.

[@ahlbergmagnus]

@@nonyabeezwax6932 Yes, streaming, phono and ripped CDs.

[@nonyabeezwax6932]

@@ahlbergmagnus Did you notice any difference between them?

[@oohtob6685]

A good subwoofer with crossover works wonders with midrange believe it or not.

[@hardtoke]

Yes, and the woofers on the speakers will be playing mid-range only. I've got 4 way B&O S60s with a subwoofer. Mid-range heaven.

[@seedney]

@@hardtokeI tend to disagree, but if you like it - enjoy it! ;-)

[@terryreese663]

He actually could be used to a coloration of sound over the years.

[@BruceCross]

You mean a coloration or resonance with the previous speakers? Yes, it's possible.

[@thefloop2813]

@@BruceCross Nah, he just needs a new flux capacitor. he wont even notice any resonant coloration with his previous speakers then.

[@Justwantahover]

That could be true. Maybe he will get used to it. Or it could psychologically get worse with fatigue. But that should be over a week or two, not two years. I really can't understand it. Maybe it's the speakers. I got some B&W 706s and they seem to be way off! I hate them cos they are too round in the med like crazy (@ least for me). And they cost me AU $2400. 😅

[@myronhelton4441]

@@Justwantahover You are correct. A live band, the mids do sound louder & stronger, that is natural & pleasant to the ears. Louder bass & treble is discomforting to ears. a Flat response is not natural. One wants loudness or dynamics, but dynamics dont mean loud music, dynamic means the low background music gets louder, thats how a good dac makes an old cd sound better. A strong midrange makes a bigger soundstage, why would anyone want less. Speakers with a flat response in volume up & down sounds terrible says all speaker designers. The woofer & tweeter crossing over toward the midrange playing loudest is the only good sound quality. It has to be a small bookshelf speaker with a small woofer. B & W speakers are harsh, have no bass, & dont sound clear. The tweeter on top of the cabinet plays thin. Eve Paul says he hates B & W speakers.

[@edwinsnoek2009]

I think it's the combination between speakers en listening room. Tried to test the speakers in another room and then listen to see if the midrange sounds better. I have often experienced that a speaker sounds great in one room and bad in another room.

[@downnoutdubin]

I'd almost start with speaker placement. Setting different distances between the speakers can change your mid range, from how it plays the room differently. Room correction could be needed, as you have stronger frequency gains different from the old ones; reverberating around the room differently now with the new speakers. Some speakers seem to not like certain room sizes. Sadly maybe the sound signature of the speakers aren't to your tastes.

[@birgerolovsson5203]

Perfect answer! 👌

[@Skye_the_toller]

@@birgerolovsson5203yeap… and once I have done it… next step…???

[@spentron1]

The subject of setup does seem to be missed here in taking off about speaker design. But yes it can difficult to have body without being perceived as lacking bass, treble, and the "analytical" character that most would expect from high end sound.

[@paulk9534]

The better the system the more revealing it becomes, so shows up poor recordings for all their flaws. Not all recordings / production is equal. 😊

[@voiceofreason9238]

That's a good point.

[@Justwantahover]

Like Van Morrison Moodance. No lows, no highs, sandy sounding med range and absolutely no air! No reverb what so ever, completely 2D. 😅

[@paulk9534]

@@Justwantahover on the moon no-one can hear you scream 😳😂

[@ravithompson1082]

modern system tend to miniaturize instrument to show all of them at the same time. then you don’t get fuller snare hits or bass rythm. mid range need to be fuller, and you don’t get this making things “impressive”

[@edmaster3147]

I find most recordings very good. Most audio gear is not that good and recordings seem hardly to be the problem. Nor is DSD or higher than 44.1khz 16bit. Or enormous ampifiers with megawatts. Or banks of capacitors. Or stupid thick cables. Or USB carbon cables. A revealing system mostly makes all recordings sound way better, but there are hardly revealing systems. You'll know it when you hear one.

[@Driller1957]

One option to consider is adding an equalizer to your system to help boost the midrange response. Schiit Audio has 2 equalizers that have been given very positive reviews-the Lokius and the Loki Max. The Lokius (which I own) costs $299 and offers 6 bands of frequency adjustability. It’s very quiet, unlike the equalizers of the past. An inexpensive component that can make a big difference. Good luck!

[@edmaster3147]

An equalizer can't solve a problem, it will enhance it. I just use digithal EQ in order to find the right sound and after that implement it in the system, either electronically or in the crossovers. For instance, I dislike the crossover point from the woofer to the mid, EQ'ing makes it easy to find the range to modify. But even real good IQ in the digital domain, almost bitperfect, degrades sadly. So better start soldering.

[@Fastvoice]

Same is with recording, mixing and mastering. Midrange is the hardest part of the spectrum to get right.

[@cesarjlisboa7586]

This was the best question for the last few weeks; the answer and explanations was really good.

[@charliewilliams9811]

I'd pull the speakers closer together and give them less toe in for starters.

[@seedney]

What about two way speaker, like Technics SB-6000 with 12' cone, and tweeter dome, that there's too much bass, and too little everything else? too small room? or too old electronics inside?

[@richardclark5112]

Probably just confusing thin with outstanding elevated crisp clarity!

[@AbsoluteFidelity]

Take room measurements and start from there. That FR will tell you a lot and what can be most possibly done to fix that issue. Most probably a dip in the upper bass or lower mids or something elavated making frequencies next to it sound recessed. This is one of the cases room measurements will tell you more than anyone else can.

[@BruceCross]

Measurements are a good idea. It would have helped if Magnus had disclosed the brand and model of the $20k speaker. Also, I wish we could teleport Paul to Sweden (or anyone skilled at speaker setup).

[@musicman8270]

You have to get midrange right, that's where the human voice is. We are geared to recognize the human voice. Mine has these tweeters on top, they are known for it. But the rich holographic human voice is what I really like best. Get that right and everything else falls in place. 😊

[@user-od9iz9cv1w]

@@BruceCross Agreed. I found measuring to be easy and impactful. I used a pink noise test track and a free download on my phone to get a quick and easy look at what is going on at the listening position. Corrected a couple of peaks and valleys and everything sounded better.

[@edmaster3147]

how would you know that what you think you measure is right? There needs to be an Analogue to Digital conversion after a microphone. The microphone is an unknown factor, the A-D is the next unknown factor. There are all sorts of mismeasurements possible, like level, frequency, but what to think of phase shift between source and converted input signal? And what to think of the accuracy and responsiveness of the microphone? I once started out on the path of room correction and all that good stuff. But it was a rabbit hole. A system set up by someone that has no knowledge and experience can turn out great, so will dropping in a typewriter in a community of chimps, if you wait long enough a new Hamlet gets written on that typewriter. cheers.

[@musicman8270]

@@edmaster3147 None of that matters. The only thing that matters is if you like it or not.

[@bayard1332]

The first place to look, IMHO, is always acoustics.

[@rwgamer]

I wonder if just buying a simple 10 band equalizer wouldn't solve his problem.

[@seedney]

If he's used to colorization - yes... If he have accoustic problem - not really... If he wants more details - opposite...

[@dirtharris]

It's good to have a good dealer. I'm in the UK and demoed 5 speaker brands in the showroom over a 2-3 hour session, decided on my favourite (the one I initially went in for) then they let me take them away for home demo so I could be sure I'd made the right decision. They let me keep the demo pair for as long as long as it took for the speakers to be manufactured and shipped. Fabulous service. I appreciate that we don't all have that luxury, but spending large amounts... it has to be heard before buying really. (PS. the mid-range is stunning on the pair I went for.... the Marten Parker Trio).

[@MrSplit57]

Ahh, Marten! You could buy them without listening! 😊😅

[@dirtharris]

@@MrSplit57 Haha... I know what you mean! Good to be sure though!!!!🥰

[@paveltomsik2610]

From my experience, the only way to high quality midrange is midrange horn powered by compression driver. I had tons of speakers (even some OB) and nothing got even close to the performance of Klipsch LaScala midrange horn (of course vintage wooden build, not actual MDF trash).

[@nightdrive2646]

I'm glad I have different experience. I like full ribbons, amt tweeters and flat panel ribbon tweeters. The Klipsh LaScala is perfect for an outdoor huge backyard party. I've heard them indoors, and quickly exited the room.

[@HiFi-Tom]

To Magnus, I know exactly what you are talking about! Especially with the „heavier“ side of rock, my system appeared thin and „unmotivated“ whereas it truly excelled in Jazz and more soft rock pieces. What I have learned is, that for my speaker it was an issue with the power amplifier. Unfortunately I have not yet published my last video in English due to the poor performance of my English video in the T+A M200 monoblocks compared to the German one. But feel free to reach out so I can share my learnings. And to you English speaking folks, if you want to see my content in English, let me know in the comments of my videos 🙂

[@hyspeed38]

It's usually much easier and cheaper to have two sets of speakers than having one to do everything right. Or you can just use an equalizer.

[@hugobloemers4425]

This is a classical way that audiophiles end up on the spending carousel. I fear for this man's marriage and wish him all the best. Perhaps Danny can help him out.

[@joeythedime1838]

I was thinking the same thing. Maybe a redesigned and upgraded crossover.

[@astroman269]

Room treatment is one of the most effective ways to make your equipment sound as it should... But is has a poor Wife Acceptance Factor. I am actively (passively since it requires no electricity?) trying to fix my room acoustics. It hasn't gone through the dreaded WAF approval... I'll keep working on it

[@hugobloemers4425]

@@astroman269 Q: So what are you using for room treatment? A: Flowers and chocolates

[@astroman269]

@@hugobloemers4425 that's phase 1 of a five year plan :P

[@astroman269]

@@hugobloemers4425 that's part one of a five year plan :D

[@finscreenname]

If you can't return the speakers start thinking about tone controls. A simple 7 band EQ can fix a lot.

[@fopah2033]

Haha I think if this guy heard you saying that, he would have a seizure.

[@voiceofreason9238]

I was wondering about EQ as well. I don't know the answer.

[@nightdrive2646]

@@fopah2033 now I just had a seizure, LOL. An equalizer is the best way to completely ruin a true high end audio system. If a system is not high end, an eq is actually ok.

[@willbuckley54]

I have Focal Sopra 3's which indeed are more expensive than yours and I noticed the same thing. Not only thin, but harsh sounding also, especially with orchestras where the brass sections play loudly. I found that diffusers on the side and front walls calmed the midrange down a lot. Basically sheets of foam rubber. And not an expensive solution.

[@user-jy5bi4ly8k]

I’m using Audirvāna into my system. I have a 32 band equalizer and an extra 3 db at a hundred hertz warms up the midrange nicely.

[@Rowuk2024]

Integration is the difference between good and great! Setup is also a big deal.

[@markmeridian3360]

A similar thing happened to me. I replaced my speakers with much more expensive speakers based on reviews. I eventually got around to doing an A/B comparison of the new speakers with the old. When I did, I was shocked to hear that the old speakers were far better than the new. The new speakers had boomier and muddier base, and were much more colored in the midrange. Female voices just didn't sound as good. I tried to fix the new speakers with subwoofers and equalization but nothing I did made them sound as good as the old ones. I eventually sold the new speakers (at a loss) and kept the old. Never again will I buy any stereo component based on reviews.

[@bikdav]

The question is, “what is right?” The listener’s idea of what the midrange should sound like varies from listener to listener.

[@shipsahoy1793]

exactly..there's a lot of people out there that like a recessed mid range.. When the mids are right, a lot of people think it's excessive mid range because they like and are used to that broad dip so much. ..and of course some people like exxagerated or excessive bass, and some people like excessive or exagerrated broadband treble because they're addicted to clarity, which can be fatigueing and harsh at higher volumes depending on the conditions.

[@Justwantahover]

To me, right is the sound that I want. 😅 Doing the impossible but trying.

[@oliverbeard7912]

The subjective aspect of this hobby will always be there,with those who want high SPLs and listen to heavy stuff like the Prodigy never taking to the idea of say some Quad ESLs,even though they're great speakers. Although different people will interpret natural sound differently, everyone who hears something real and natural recognises it immediately. It's comes down to the presentation that one values most at the end of the day.There may be a more "proper" way, but some may prefer to add flavour instead.

[@nafnaf0]

Well you can just get a decent quality mic and a sound spectrum analyzer and see what the levels across the band really are. There are cheap to free smart phone apps that can do quick and dirty measurements

[@shipsahoy1793]

@@nafnaf0 I wouldn't trust a mic in a smart phone. I highly doubt good broadband readings can be extracted with it.. people can enjoy fooling themselves all they want in that regard.

[@cesarsantellana1768]

Sometimes knowing the price range affects the perception of the midrange.

[@papabear1417]

He's gone way past the point of diminishing returns. As Harley Lovegrove said, listen to the music not the equipment.

[@carlosoliveira-rc2xt]

So you have a $500 system?

[@stevengagnon4777]

​@@carlosoliveira-rc2xtyeah that would be almost exactly what I have invested...that's not happening anymore...good dumpster finds don't happen (Technics SL-7 and 1200 mark II and more) and thrift store finds are pretty rare now. O

[@edmaster3147]

To me there is no sense in diminishing returns. If you are smart and spend on what makes you happy, thats all there is to it. Don't forget that for some a 300/k speaker is not very intesting, its just a bit of money. Those systems are for those and if you are not that well of financially, it doesn't mean that one can measure quality by means of money. cheers.

[@goranvuk8501]

Hej Magnus. I had also very expensive speakers - but it simply did not work, at least not in my room. I sold them at built my own Open Baffle speakers using Phy-HP full range unit. No cross-over and a fantastic midrange. All the best from Copenhagen

[@pharoahpando]

Also it can take a while for your ears to 'retune' to the new speakers. Took a while for my ears to retune to my Elac (poss, because of the tweeter), but when they did there was no turning back. My 3 ways sounded much warmer than my 2 ways also.

[@sourdoughhome2571]

The midrange is where the music lives. Clarity in the midrange is the single most important factor in making the sound sound "right". Often an anemic midrange can be corrected with a graphic equalizer - or even tone controls. Hope Magnus sorts this out and finds musical joy again.

[@HAL9007]

(1) Look at basic design. I chased 3-way tower speakers for 15 years seeking the sound I wanted. I went through at least 5 pairs from $4k to $12k. Nothing sounded good to my ears. It was a disjointed sound and speakers that were too hard to position in my 3 different medium sized listening rooms. Desperate, I finally listened to someone I trusted and purchased (without hearing them) a set of British dual concentric speakers for $8k. It was a revelation, everything fell into place. Wonderful dynamics, easy to position, great dispersion and soundstage. I added two $1k REL subs and found nirvana. Sometimes you just need to get lucky. Everyone's ears are different. Everyone's room is different. Everyone has a different budget. But everyone buying speakers deserves to do a proper test of dual concentric (other than KEF). Like Tannoy, Fyne, Zu, MoFi, etc. Also don't overlook other unique design choices -- Klipsch, Magnepan, MartinLogan, . Step out of the 3-way speaker box. Listen to speakers in different venues. Beware of rear-ported speakers. (2) Analyze your room acoustics. Experiment with speaker positioning. Take notes, do blind tests. Try tilting speakers back a few degrees. (3) At some point you have to hold some variables stable. Get yourself a well-matched pre/amp/source. (This is why I love PSAudio electronics -- they are obviously carefully matched and they seem like they are voiced by the same ears -- very consistent. If you pay more, PSAudio gear doesn't sound different -- it sounds better.) Carefully consider power sources-- like PSAudio PowerPlant/Regenerators. Try to stick with CDs/SACDs or Streaming. It sounds better and more consistent than vinyl for the same budget. Vinyl is too complicated, too much work, too many variables, keep it simple until you settle on your basic system. Vinyl is for rich people with a lot of time on their hands. 🙂 Good luck to us all. It's a great time to be an audiophile.

[@Eric_DiRisio]

"Magic and truth is in the Midrange. It's the emotion and soul of what makes a great song and great mix. Everything else is candy " 🙏🏻 -Jack Joseph Puig

[@saint6563]

Arnie's Genesis 1" ribbon tweet is my fave. Super sweet; colored, no doubt, however the richness made up for it IMO.

[@danieljones8587]

Tekton has got the midrange right and at a reasonable price.

[@TT-eo2is]

Music's Midrange = MAIN EVENT!!! 😉

[@waxmonkeys3841]

Might not be a popular reply, but use EQ settings to fix the midrange. Yea I get it audiophiles don't like EQ and especially on 20k speakers... but it might solve the problem.

[@Darno369]

If money was no object I’d fly to Boulder and tour the factory and listen to the complete systems there. The trip would be money well spent. There aren’t many audio companies that cover the sound reproduction chain from mic to speaker.

[@lotus72e]

In this case the right solution is to measure the speakers both nearfield and in the room. If they indeed measure thin you can do changes to the crossover or even do some adjusting with a equalizer to balance things out. I am astounded at how few people who actually have expensive hifi systems do not have a clue as to how they measure in their spaces. Both room treatment and tailoring the sound will make a world of change for the better to an even modest system setup.

[@joeb4349]

As I've been told by so many, "Musical reality from recorded music lives in the mid-range."

[@voiceofreason9238]

Paul Klipsch famously used to say "we live in the midrange."

[@XTSM1]

Its so sad ppl ignoring the room aspect. Most think get $$$$ speakers and you will reach the audio nirvana. First fix your room.

[@voiceofreason9238]

The owner said his old speakers were fine in the midrange.

[@thcatt]

I'd like to hear a speaker with a Dome-Midrange. Done right, I hear they're quite precise.

[@spacemissing]

If a $20k speaker can't do midrange right, you paid too much.

[@net_news]

focal anyone... 😂

[@ernies8828]

I definitely agree. I have two pairs of two-way bookshelfs that sound wonderful at all ranges. And I didn't even pay more than $270 for either pair.

[@202One]

Trade in ? 😂 $20k

[@jaycoleman8062]

My first thought as well.

[@firebladeclements]

If you have nothing good to say, why say anything! We all have issues in one way or another, try to help, not be a 2 year old!

[@ernies8828]

I have a pair of Cerwin Vega LA165, the newest bookshelf with a 50-watt stereo DAC/amp via USB from my desktop PC, and the entire soundstage, including midrange is wonderful to me. The entire amp and speaker setup was only $650. If he has thin midrange from a very expensive $20k speaker pair, I would definitely return the speakers, in my opinion.

[@DethFromAbove1985]

It's a lot of money but if you think about it.. it can be a 1 time buy. Most people finance new cars every 5-10 years. If you buy the system behind Paul you will probably have the best system of anyone you know for the rest of your life. I still use stuff from the 70s for the most part.

[@xaviermontalban717]

I'm truly wondering who these people are that drop 20k on a system they haven't extensively listened to

[@carlosoliveira-rc2xt]

You don't know what you're talking about.

[@xaviermontalban717]

@carlosoliveira-rc2xt what's that supposed to mean?

[@xaviermontalban717]

@subliminalvibes yeah, I was thinking the same. If that's the case the answer is quite obvious

[@carlosoliveira-rc2xt]

@@xaviermontalban717 Exactly that.

[@xaviermontalban717]

@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt

[@Survivalist2008]

Find a quality pair of bookshelf speakers with the midrange that suits you, then run them in conjunction with your main speakers (A&B). Then you have the best of both pairs.

[@nafnaf0]

I have the exact same problem. Upgraded my whole system, detail and image are excellent now, but the mid-range sounds thin compared to my old $1,500 system. I think I am going to try to use room correction software after applying some room treatments.

[@noahbirdrevolution]

Magnus Carlsen is into hifi... Nice.

[@steveodian6008]

Paul, Love the PS Audio rug!! It would look great in my listening room. Ever think about offering them for sale. I would buy one in a minute 😄

[@astroman269]

At that price you should be checking for professional room treatment. It'll help incredibly with making sure the equipment you bought sounds as it should

[@martinlindberg1983]

Magnus - where are you? We are here to help you and really curios what type of speakers you have :) You don´t buy expensive speakers without listening to them so it must come down to speaker placement and/or acoustics. Did you have your old speakers in that same location/house? /Sweden too :)

[@ahlbergmagnus]

I´m here. :) I made a comment recently where I explained why I do not feel like writing the name of the speakers. My speakers are in the same place as the old ones but they did not go as low. Increasing bass with my tone controls on my Accuphase preamp fix the thin midrange but the give me a too boomy bass so I think I have a low midrange dip. Could be speakers or room. DSP might do the trick, and/or room treatment.

[@ryanschipp8513]

Here is the challenge for all of us. Our rooms and the recording quality. I went the route of setting up 3 rigs in my 1100 sq ft condo. 3 different rooms with 3 different speakers. All speakers will be comprised in a certain aspect. Why limit it to getting great sound out of one pair of speakers in one specific room?

[@Davidkxf]

Add some subs to the system, this fixed my midrange, don't ask me why because I don't know.

[@oohtob6685]

This is true, same here. And I'd go further and say the crossover plays a big part.

[@YouSoundButtHurt]

They fill in frequencies that the main speakers can't do that well and not just low bass.

[@nightdrive2646]

Sometimes the upper bass can be a little "weak" causing the midrange to sound louder and harsher and thinner. The subs probably filled in gaps in the bass, allowing the midrange to sound normal in relation to your new increased bass level.

[@bartbarelds8454]

Try DIY and create speakers perfect for your personal likings.. Loved the midrange of my KEF speakers and managed to create DIY speakers with the same beautiful midrange but more beautiful and crisp high range without ever being fatiguing due to extremely low distortions.

[@Z4d0k]

Funnily enough, years ago I had a thin sounding midrange on my Monitor Audio Silver 8 speakers using a NAD pre and power amp combo. I changed to an integrated AV amplifier with worse specifications (Yamaha RX-A2040) and the midrange sounded much fuller, so I kept it instead…

[@howardskeivys4184]

I used to be dissatisfied with my systems midrange reproduction. Male vocals lacked ‘chestyness’. Stringed instruments lacked body. I rectified the issue by swapping out my Delta Signa DAC for a resistor ladder DAC!

[@PSA78]

My first guess would be that of others, if your main experience is your old speakers then you might have gotten used to how they sound. And apart from all the things Paul talked about (so I don't have to repeat that), there's also distortion in/from the drivers and that's what's coloring sound. There's even a difference between odd and even harmonics in how people (or rather their brain) psychoacoustically feel/react to the odd and even harmonics. I would get a basic $100 microphone for measuring and a software like REW (free) and see if you can based on the frequency respons in the room at your listening position (as well as a measurement of a single speaker!!) to see if there's a difference between the old and new. If there isn't, then no correction like DSP (could make it far worse) or sound treatment etc can really fix it, it's the drivers (that's probably a whole lot better/transparent in the new). A new crossover can theoretically change things, but if the frequency respons is even and you want to keep it even, then you would have to push the drivers into distortion just to get harmonics that colors the sound (bad and tedious idea). In the end, changing things like placement of the speakers and room treatment might be the easiest/cheapest way to 'move it around a little', if you're going to buy new equipment then you might aswell go for different speakers.

[@goodsound4756]

He obviously bought analytical speakers instead of neutral or even warm. That's why you should listen to them before buying. Every manufacturer discloses how many watts or frequency range, but never tells you if their ideal of music reproduction is on the warm, neutral or analytical side. Should be mandatory to disclose.

[@gtric1466]

Warmth and depth to the mid-range happens in the woofer. could be at a critical cross-over point but would think a speaker at this price range would be flat. Seems the science in speaker and amplifier design has moved more towards analytical over the years. if the woofers are not too large 6-10" i would think a little EQ bump 1-2 Db in the 500-600 Hz. range should help.

[@Darno369]

Every part of frequency reproduction is difficult to get right. The lower midrange to woofer is the trickiest. I find that the obsession over perfect electronic reproduction of music is better channeled towards picking up a musical instrument.

[@tristanjones7735]

Mid range is only hard if you want to do it right. An idea midrange should cover from 200hz to 6500hz. Do so with minimal mass, maximum sensitivity, minimal distortion, and excellent dispersion characteristics. It's not even particularly hard to do, you just don't see many off the shelf components that will do that beyond planars.

[@harvestgroup644]

My prime suspect is the electronics especially the DAC and preamp..inter-connectors could also be the problem, I wouldn’t blame the 20k speakers..

[@crtgamer2355]

Those thick soled sneakers are really bad for your back, but this is an audio video, and enjoyed it :)

[@ChrisCiapala]

I would probably get REW and see what is the frequency response in the room. There is a chance the man got so used to previous, over-mid heavy speakers that now he is complaining, or maybe the room has some stuff in it which cancels mids. Also, I believe for those who don't have dedicated listening rooms with plenty of space and options for speakers positioning, its the bass which is hardest to get right and even. Even with FR30s Paul had to get a sub for the room to make it even?

[@crodoc69]

Another proof how cost often doesn't corelate with performance. I can't imagine what on Earth should cost $20K in speakers that can give so much better sound than $4K, but that's me. Feeling of having some expensive is also something one must pay. Is there real difference? Most of times not or not a big one, actually very small and not in proportion with money invested. Not even close. But, whole industry is based on emotions, personal beliefs and often placebo. Kudos for those who can make money on that! P.S. Most of audiophiles and owners of expensive hi fi gear are male. Same as with cars and expensive wrist watches. That says something, isn't it?

[@myronhelton4441]

Speaker cabinets that are not made of wood, like plastic has a thin sound. Then to partly fix the problem, get a good amp. A Classe amp sounds thin, but sounds good on real bassy speakers. Tweeters that are not dome tweeters can sometimes sound thin. Woog or paper wood woofers dont sound thin. Get a tube pre amp, or tube amp. A thin or bright speaker, you spend a lot of money to partly fix the problem. Could be most new dacs sound a little thin. B & W speakers are bright. Maybe all your cds are thin.

[@pharoahkenun999]

I think the problem is he's pre set built in passive cross over which high end towers depends on my system I always use a active cross over & graphic equaliser with multiple power amplifiers to set the cross over points myself so I can dial in the system and alter to suit the acoustic of were ever the speakers are 😊

[@gino3286]

First it should be defined what midrange means in terms of Hz range It can vary and actually i have seen 7" cone midranges and 2" dome midrange with different ranges covered

[@jeffreybrady927]

Maybe the speaker company could get someone who could see if placement could help. If that doesn't work audition some different speakers. Maybe try a different style of speaker some horn loaded speakers have excellent midrange but probably wouldn't have the imaging the speakers you have now have.

[@seedney]

accoustic of the room? I heard that to have 5ms delay on the first bounce of wall is about 70 cm measured to front of the speaker to the wall... That setup tends to cancel in my situation ~1kHz and harmonics... Double the distance, and I've noticed ~250Hz and less to be disturbed... Maybe move the speakers will do the trick? Maybe your room needs a treatment? Not everyone have that done right... Me included xD What materials are in your room? "All at all it's just Another brick in the wall"? ;-)

[@JJTMARQUES]

20k loudspeakers is a lot of money, the incredible thing is to have the loudspeakers for half price and have enormous qualities that make the 20k or more expensive loudspeakers sweat 😅.

[@danielalvarezarribas4660]

An equalizer (software or hardware) may be worth a try, to emphasize the midrange just a bit.

[@slyspy9819]

20 K for speakers they should be and better be ....AMAZING !

[@voiceofreason9238]

I bet if you take any random ten of us knowledgeable audiophiles from this comment section and let us listen to Magnus' system in his listening room we would get ten different opinions on how good the sound is and what we would suggest to him to make it better. Knowing what his speakers cost, I wonder seriously if any of us would recommend swapping out $20K speakers? And yes boys, I said "audiophiles." If you're following Paul and commenting here then you ARE one of the 1%-ers. 😎

[@tomstrum6259]

Difficult finding the absolute Best sounding Speakers for Your specific listening Room....If current Speakers sound, Natural, Clean & Crisp, After room Tuning (Carpet & corner Traps) Keep 'em & Add a 31 octave Equalizer to "Touch up" whatever's Missing or lacking to get Exactly what You like....

[@Lou-f]

Room treatment

[@AndyMillerPhotoUK]

Hi Paul - nice vid -- It looks like you are still tweaking this listening room. More absorption, more base traps AND surprisingly Q7D less diffusion? The speakers are very long way into the room (relative to what most could replicate). It looks like you closed off access to the resonators, but the front wall corners are still closed off. It would be interesting to hear about your room's journey and what you and your guys are having success with and what (like resonators) you have found less useful. Profiles absorption panels - thinner at the top and thicker at the bottom etc... vs constant thickness.

[@Ermac_SA_Slayer]

I would try new speaker placement, acoustic diffusers on the front wall and EQ.

[@hoobsgroove]

you could try a couple things placement of speakers tilt them back about 5° and maybe block the port or partially block the port with her piece of foam or sock sound like the two analytical we could try a resistor if they have by terminals kitchen omd 1.4 ohm 50w resistor type from the bottom terminal to the top terminal on the plus just connect the wires to the bottom terminal if that's the woofer

[@deejay7748]

fact, 100% pure truth

[@matejgrim]

I'd bet my ass he bought Bowers & Wilkins

[@craigenputtock]

Time for DSP ...

[@leekumiega9268]

Having multiple drivers is a challenge to get right because the crossovers can cause phase distortion and driver placement can cause time issues. That is why the Ohm F's were called the best sounding speaker at any price since all frequencies were produced by one time and phase aligned driver without the need for a crossover . HHR Exotics will custom make a modern look alike version called the TLS-1 with an extended frequency response and modern materials hat have a much longer lifetime 0 0 Reply

[@NoEgg4u]

@1:12 "Mid-range is by far, the hardest thing to get right." True. Not true. From a designer's point of view: True. From a customer's point of view: Not true. The former is not the customer's problem, if the customer listened to the speakers before purchasing them (or at least read a review from a reputable reviewer from Stereophile or The Absolute Sound). If the speakers are designed with great mid-range, then you will not have a problem when you bring them home. Bass, on the other hand, no matter how accurately and perfectly the speakers are designed, and no matter how amazing the bass is reported from a reputable reviewer... ...when you bring those speakers home, you will have bass humps and bass valleys in various bass frequencies. To fix that is a challenge. Room treatments will help, or a separate sub-woofer might help. But if you have a room with bass issues, you have a daunting issue on your hands, no matter how great the speakers are designed. If the mid-range drivers are created right by the designer, you will almost certainly not have a mid-range problem when you get home. Mid-range problems are due to design flaws. Bass problems could be design flaws, but could also be room issues (or both). Vandersteen's Quatro speakers (and higher models) address bass issues with built-in potentiometers. Together with "Smart" software, evaluating test tones via a microphone in the listener's seated position, does wonders for accurate bass reproduction at the seated listening position. Alas, Magnus in Sweden's mid-range problem is probably in the design of his speakers. That is a tough one to fix -- and might not have a satisfactory fix. Changing amps, pre-amps, etc, could help. But changing his speakers would be my recommendation.

[@Evil_Peter]

I don't quite agree. I've heard some speakers in multiple rooms and the midrange has definitely been significantly affected by room acoustics. From having downright harsh parts of the midrange in one room to all of it feeling nice and smooth in another. I've also heard speakers that some have described as harsh but I didn't get that impression of at all, and my guess is that the different listening environments play a good part in that. Fortunately it's much easier to room treatment for midrange and treble than it is for bass, as the latter requires bulkier solutions. It's also not entirely impossible that he could have a bass response issue that causes problems higher up in the frequency range. Room acoustics is a pretty complex area though so it's not always easy to know exactly what to do. When you need to dampen something and when you need to diffuse. Most people also prefer to do it without making the room look like a studio. What does speak towards your conclusion that it's the speakers would mostly be that he likely had his previous system in the same room, so it's likely that the two systems would be affected by the same issues in the room. Then again if the room is lively, for example, you can combat that with gear that has a problem in the opposite direction, although it won't be as good as if neither the room or the gear had those problems.

[@dangerzone007]

Maybe it's your speaker positioning. Try some EQ.

[@finscreenname]

I love all the audiophile adjectives. 🤣🤣

[@isak6626]

How do you even know it's the midrange that's the problem? The acoustics of the room and the bass response in your listening position will greatly affect your perception of sound. Get a measurement microphone and EQ capabilities and play around with room correction.

[@brianhoggard3763]

I know that it might feel like you shouldn't have to worry about it at this price range, but has the writer given the speakers enough time for proper break in? Midrange and bass can change SUBSTANTIALLY over 100 or more hours of play time.

[@viraljasubhai7747]

Get a nice paper coated driver and you can't go wrong

[@nastybadger-tn4kl]

For me best speaker is one that sings. Celestion ditton 100

[@bencausey]

Schiit Lokius, but first slow down and audition lots of speakers in your home until it sounds right. Btw, amps like the MF A1 have a lot of midrange meat on the bone.

[@Bassotronics]

And to think my $100 PRV audio concert midrange speakers sound great, if I’m gonna pay more than $3000 for speakers and they are lacking something, rest assured the company stole your money!

[@TheMadComposer]

Get a Trinnov! You can certainly afford it 😂

[@Skye_the_toller]

I live this kind of situation… my midrange seems unbalanced, too loud for voices if I increase the volume…

[@johndaddabbo9383]

Measure! - it's been stated already but I will say it again... he doesn't even know what the issue is... are the speakers truly thin or is what he is accustomed to overly rich... is it the speakers, the room, or placement (or even electronics)... how can one even begin to approach resolving such an issue without knowing the answers to these questions (one cannot)... and hence it has been stated multiple times already - Measure 😊

[@johnsonadekunle7675]

He can add a pair of subs. That should help.

[@tolgadabbagh1877]

dont you guys use eq to correct such mistakes or adjust the sound according to your personal taste ?

[@warpspeed9877]

Once you go planar in midrange you're spoiled for life. Nothing else cuts it.

[@nathanbell6962]

Should have bought harbeth if you wanted midrange

[@glenncurry3041]

Don't remember hearing speaker placement discussed? Drag them babies into the room? Toe in? But my first guess, moving up from a significantly less expensive system, is perspective. He might be used to fat tubby muddy lack of definition... Perhaps listen less for comparison to old and more to natural sound. A nice female vocalist. Does it sound natural and full or is that thin,