Ghost in the Machine: The Gloster Meteor's Forgotten Tragedies

The Gloster Meteor was Britain's first jet fighter and the first jet to be used in the Second World War. But despite its pioneering achievements, it has a legacy of fatal accidents which have largely been forgotten in popular memory. This is a story about just one of those accidents, the ghost which is said to haunt it, and the Meteor's complex post-war legacy.
Find out about another fascinating Meteor story here - this time with UFOs! • The Little Rissington ...

[@tonywakeford1955]

A fascinating well told account of overlooked endeavours and loss in peace time.👍

[@blacklisted4885]

War time gremlins are a bizarre phenomenon. There are stories of these little dwarf, gnome like characters running around the planes surfaces in flight 😅. The pilots probably hallucinating. I love all the props and cute costumes

[@jimsweeney7339]

Great summary! So often people now complain or maybe just get annoyed at safety procedures not just in aviation but in most industry and health care. It is easy to forget that those procedures are developed in response to a tragedy that didn't need to happen in most cases. I think you are spot on that with the safer practices enforced today, most of these accidents would have been avoided.

[@rfirth1]

As the saying goes, Health and Safety Regulations are written in blood.

[@WilhelmKarsten]

Unfortunately the hundreds of deaths related to Gloster _"Meatbox"_ could have been easily prevented if Gloster had simply followed well-known and understood industry standards for aircraft design and construction. The Meatbox was hastily converted from a twin propeller driven nightfighter into a jet which is the source of many of its fatal flaws.

[@petemaly8950]

​​@@WilhelmKarsten We believe we can help with some apparent misunderstandings. *_Contrary to various copious & ubiquitous posts regarding accident losses of various UK aircraft._* The De Havilland Vampire was a fighter jet with pressurised cockpits & was of primarily metal construction. It also included triple layer hot moulded fibre reinforced cored composite materials which included resins & adhesives still produced for aerospace use. *As they know, the Sea Vixen & Gloster Meteor were indeed very competent & beautiful aircraft.* Of course it is obviously correct that The Gloster Meteor was a potent fighter jet in its day, not used in WW2 as after 1943 it was obvious it wasn't required & it was felt necessary to keep examples out of German & Russian hands. *Indeed it is the case that the world's first jet aircraft to exceed 1000 mph was of course a British aircraft which broke the previous record by 300 mph & held the record for nearly a year.* _In fact the Meteor was the world's first aircraft to exceed 0.85 on the combined 2 year looks & capability scale for jet fighter aircraft._ _Obviously a particular rather superb Gloster Meteor was the world's first Turboprop aircraft in 1945 & exceptional Gloster Meteors set gas turbine aero engine powered aircraft speed records in 1945 & 1946._ *Of course, British military aircraft at the time did not have unusually high accident losses rates.* The Gloster Meteor was of course produced using the latest aircraft industry knowledge for design & production. *_For example_* De Havilland Vampire & Sea Vixen & Gloster Meteor accident losses were not high or unusual for fighter aircraft at the time. Non combat phase accident losses % of Aircraft built. The Canadair CL-44 was a turboprop airliner. *_Canadair CL-44 (ff 1959 ) 48%_* *Lockheed XF104 (ff 1954) 100%* *Lockheed P80 (ff 1944) 43%* *Lockheed F104 (ff 1954) 45%* *McDonnell FH Phantom (ff 1945) 35%* *_Gloster Meteor (ff 1943) 19.75%_* *_DH Vampire (ff 1943) 23%_* *_DH Sea Vixen (ff 1951) 33%_* *_Gloster Javelin (ff 1951) 20%_* A comparison of two particular particularly relevant militarily related aircraft. Gloster Meteor. 3950 Built. 70% did not have ejector seats. In service 1944. 830 accident losses. 436 accident loss fatalities. 20% accident losses. 11% accident loss Fatalities. Lockheed F104. 2578 Built. In service 1958, 14 years after the Meteor. All had ejector seats. 1100 accident losses. 425 accident loss fatalities. 43% accident losses. 17% accident loss Fatalities. Cheers 👍 & 😎 & of course 🙂 indeed. _Toodle_ *PIP* -Old- *_Chaps_* .. . .. . ... .... . .. .... ..... .... . ..... ............ ........ xcvvvvvvvviixvvcxcxc cvvvvvvcvcvvvvvciiiii

[@californiadreamin8423]

Nice to see and hear Barney again . He was a DC9 Captain and became an excellent instructor in the training school at East Midlands. It’s a shame that the headstones shown in the video do not appear to be cared for.

[@c.morees9698]

The Royal Dutch Airforce did operate the Gloster Meteor after World War 2 and lost 40 pilots in accidents with this type...

[@Davlavi]

Informative as always.

[@mickpalmer3521]

Great film , never knew about the Meteors accident record , very interesting. On the subject of ghosts I work at a distribution depot at Sherburn - in Elmet , on the site of an old aircraft factory and wartime airfield and there are reports of strange ghostly goings on in the warehouse .

[@Useaname]

Is that the Eddie Stobart warehouse on Aviation Road? My friend worked there and left because of things happening.

[@brianaustin8989]

150 total losses in 1952 68 lost after running out of fuel 23 lost doing official low level aeros displays .890 lost in total 436 fatal accidents between 1944 and 1986. Assymetrical thrust, was the downfall of this type of layout,when they seemed to insist on shutting one engine down, rather down to idle. Canberra's had a similar problem, remember an older guy I worked with telling me of Canberra's suffering from this when he was ground crew.

[@jimmorrison5493]

A wonderful coverage of a time I had not considered 👍

[@antonrudenham3259]

I used to stay in the St George hotel when doing firefighting courses and was always fascinated by the thought of all those young Canadian aircrew who stayed there when it was a bustling officers mess during the war, the whole place is covered with marvelous paintings and photos of that era and there are many WW2 buildings still in use there.

[@harryspeakup8452]

I agree, it's a pity it is now disused and fenced off

[@landoremick7422]

Great videos. You have a nice style of delivery

[@kamikazetsunami9137]

Always have time for your channel. Cheers

[@AnthonyBrown12324]

I was looking at the history of the Meteor recently and became aware of the very high accident rate . I am making a model of the Mk8 . Your video adds some interesting facts and details

[@harryspeakup8452]

Which kit are you using? The MPM / Special Hobby kit is still good in 1/72, and available at very reasonable prices if you look around a bit, though the newer Airfix ones in both 1/48 and 1/72 are both excellent if you have the price of admission

[@AnthonyBrown12324]

I actually got the 1/48 Meteor , free from Airfix club tokens . The kit fits together very well but there are some very annoying sink marks which were difficult to fill and sand . To me it's a case of it looks right . to me the Meteor does not look right . this mk 8 was clearly outclassed by US and Soviet designs in the Korean War . I prefer the Vampire . @@harryspeakup8452

[@harryspeakup8452]

@@AnthonyBrown12324 The Vampire is certainly a very elegant design. Hope you enjoy finishing your Meteor, pity about the sinkage. I have heard that the more recent re-releases of both the 1/48 Meteor and Vampire are better produced with a nicer plastic formulation

[@AnthonyBrown12324]

That would be good as they are both excellent kits . Been unable to finish the Meteor due to other commitments but the 1/48 Vampire I completed again a few nasty sink holes and a bit of a bad nose joint which can be corrected. Best in the scale especially if plastic moulding improved. Thanks I am sure you enjoyed the video and noticed the nice model of what looks like a 2 seater not sure the original kit WW2 is my main interest

[@harryspeakup8452]

The T.7 in the video is from the Special Hobby / Xtrakit / MPM kit (they are all the same tooling, just different boxings and decal sheets)@@AnthonyBrown12324

[@ianallan8005]

I thought you were going to talk about the phenomenon of Meteor phantom dive. At certain speeds and attitudes, a Meatbox with wheels and flaps deployed would be aerodynamically compelled to dive into the ground.

[@petemaly8950]

I think that had something to do with using the airbrakes as well as having flaps down & landing gear deployed which caused the tailplane to loose authority due to air flow disturbance.

[@IS-L]

I experienced something similar while serving during the 80s in RAF Germany.

[@harryspeakup8452]

If you want to say more I am sure people would be interested!

[@johnherbert7017]

thanks to you both for this great information about the Meteor and it's pilots. Nice model too, I must build one myself.

[@harryspeakup8452]

That particular T.7 kit can be found in MPM, Xtrakit and Special Hobby boxings: usually the Xtrakit version is best value

[@johnherbert7017]

@@harryspeakup8452 thanks Harry

[@DwayneEagle114]

Brilliant video

[@manic2360]

I knew about the West German Starfighters which had an accident rate of 292 of 916 Starfighters crashing, killing 115 pilots, but id never heard about this, thank you for sharing.

[@johnpoile1451]

Experienced pilots only aircraft.

[@huudielbo728]

To meet the German specs, that plane was made overweight & dangerous. The yanks wanted that sale at any cost.

[@captaincrash9286]

Lockheed bribed the German procurement officials, and supplied a variamt which hadn't been properly tested. Have you heard the LP 'Captain Lockheed and the Starfighters'? It's a concept album about the scandal. Yes, really. It's one of my faves.

[@manic2360]

@@captaincrash9286 ... fantastic album.

[@captaincrash9286]

@manic2360 'Does anybody want to buy a Starfighter? Then buy an acre of ground.... and wait!'

[@AstroTorch]

Iconic. The plane too.

[@MrMevie]

The early jet age was so wild. There are stories of holes opening in the fuselage during flight of early model DeHavilland Comet airliners.

[@harryspeakup8452]

They're not just stories: three early Comets were lost with 100% fatalities due to in-flight structural failures, BOAC 783 on 2 May 1953, BOAC 781 on 10 January 1954 and South African Airways 201 on 8 April 1954. However, more were lost to pilot error. Flying at jet speeds and altitudes in the early 1950s was a huge stretch given an aviation infrastructure, in terms of nav aids, safety procedures and training, which was really only attuned to an earlier generation of aircraft which flew at half the speed and in some ways were less demanding of their crews

[@MrMevie]

@@harryspeakup8452 they were at the bleeding edge of technology and the engineers of the time just didn't have know how metal fatigue would work with jet airliners when they built the Comet.

[@methaneman4045]

Square corners to the windows gave more stress than round corners

[@WilhelmKarsten]

6 Comet 1s were lost in accidents with 3 disintegrated in mid-flight, they were grounded in 1954 and its certificate of airworthiness was permanently revoked. The aircraft was so riddled with fatal design flaws that the aircraft had to be completely redesigned. No Comet 1s ever returned to passenger service.

[@WilhelmKarsten]

​​@@MrMevieNot true, the _Comet Disaster_ was completely preventable if de Havilland had simply followed well-known and understood industry standards for the design and construction of pressurized cabins made from riveted aluminum alloys. Pressurized cabins had been around for nearly a quarter century when the Comet was grounded and subsequently had its airworthiness certification permanently revoked. de Havilland was a deeply troubled company that had an appalling safety record, appalling loss rates and the highest fatalities statistics in the industry. Nothing cutting edge about the Comet, what was different was its bizarre and unconventional construction techniques that were outdated and obsolete, d-H was still building aircraft primarily from wood and fabric well into the 1950s. The Comet Disaster is an example of engineering incompetence and criminal negligence.

[@petemaly8950]

*_Contrary to various copious & ubiquitous posts regarding accident losses of various UK aircraft._* *As they know, the Sea Vixen & Gloster Meteor were indeed very competent & beautiful aircraft.* _In fact the Meteor was the world's first aircraft to exceed 0.85 on the combined 2 year looks & capability scale for jet fighter aircraft._ _ Yes thats a good question & it is an undeniable fact that a rather superb Gloster Meteor was the world's first Turboprop aircraft in 1945 & remarkably effective Gloster Meteors set gas turbine aero engine powered aircraft speed records in 1945 & 1946._ *Of course, British military aircraft at the time did not have unusually high accident losses rates.* Of course that is correct, the Gloster Meteor did indeed have a 100% successful 100% combat kill ratio during its operational in service time during WW2. *_For example_* De Havilland Vampire & Sea Vixen & Gloster Meteor accident losses were not high or unusual for fighter aircraft at the time. Non combat phase accident losses % of Aircraft built. The Canadair CL-44 was a turboprop airliner. *_Canadair CL-44 (ff 1959 ) 48%_* *Lockheed XF104 (ff 1954) 100%* *Lockheed P80 (ff 1944) 43%* *Lockheed F104 (ff 1954) 45%* *McDonnell FH Phantom (ff 1945) 35%* *_Gloster Meteor (ff 1943) 19.75%_* *_DH Vampire (ff 1943) 23%_* *_DH Sea Vixen (ff 1951) 33%_* *_Gloster Javelin (ff 1951) 20%_* A comparison of two particular particularly relevant related mainly militarily aircraft of interesting interest. Gloster Meteor. 3950 Built. 70% did not have ejector seats. In service 1944. 830 accident losses. 436 accident loss fatalities. 20% accident losses. 11% accident loss Fatalities. Lockheed F104. 2578 Built. In service 1958, 14 years after the Meteor. All had ejector seats. 1100 accident losses. 425 accident loss fatalities. 43% accident losses. 17% accident loss Fatalities. Cheers 👍 & 😎 & of course 🙂 indeed. _Toodle_ *PIP* -Old- *_Chaps_* Hope this helps 👍 .. . .. . ... .... . . . .. .... . ..... ........ .... xcvvvvvvvviixxcx cvvvvvvcvcvvxcx

[@Sim0nTrains]

Brilliant video. I find it bizzare that the pilot crashed the plane into his own room.

[@petemaly8950]

*_Contrary to various copious & ubiquitous posts regarding accident losses of various UK aircraft._* *As they know, the Sea Vixen & Gloster Meteor were indeed very competent & beautiful aircraft.* _In fact the Meteor was the world's first aircraft to exceed 0.85 on the combined 2 year looks & capability scale for jet fighter aircraft._ _ Yes thats a vood question & it is an undeniable fact that a rather superb Gloster Meteor was the world's first Turboprop aircraft in 1945 & remarkably effective Gloster Meteors set gas turbine aero engine powered aircraft speed records in 1945 & 1946._ *Of course, British military aircraft at the time did not have unusually high accident losses rates.* Of course that is correct, the Gloster Meteor did indeed have a 100% successful 100% combat kill ratio during its operational in service time during WW2. *_For example_* De Havilland Vampire & Sea Vixen & Gloster Meteor accident losses were not high or unusual for fighter aircraft at the time. Non combat phase accident losses % of Aircraft built. The Canadair CL-44 was a turboprop airliner. *_Canadair CL-44 (ff 1959 ) 48%_* *Lockheed XF104 (ff 1954) 100%* *Lockheed P80 (ff 1944) 43%* *Lockheed F104 (ff 1954) 45%* *McDonnell FH Phantom (ff 1945) 35%* *_Gloster Meteor (ff 1943) 19.75%_* *_DH Vampire (ff 1943) 23%_* *_DH Sea Vixen (ff 1951) 33%_* *_Gloster Javelin (ff 1951) 20%_* A comparison of two particular particularly relevant related mainly militarily aircraft of interesting interest. Gloster Meteor. 3950 Built. 70% did not have ejector seats. In service 1944. 830 accident losses. 436 accident loss fatalities. 20% accident losses. 11% accident loss Fatalities. Lockheed F104. 2578 Built. In service 1958, 14 years after the Meteor. All had ejector seats. 1100 accident losses. 425 accident loss fatalities. 43% accident losses. 17% accident loss Fatalities. Cheers 👍 & 😎 & of course 🙂 indeed. _Toodle_ *PIP* -Old- *_Chaps_* Hope this helps 👍 .. . .. . ... .... . . .... . ..... ...... xcvvvvvvvviix cvvvvvvcvcvv

[@NarnianRailway]

Wonderful video as Remembrance Day approaches!🎖 Wonder what stories exist for places like RAF Carnaby on the East Riding of Yorkshire coast. It was 750ft wide, 3x typical, serving as a bomber emergency landing strip. Looking Ordinance Survey maps and airfields were censored, a ghost that doesn't materialize on maps till after the war years. RAF Carnaby operated into the 60s. In the 70s the wide airfield hosted auto races then developed into an industrial estate. learned about map censorship looking for a major shipyard on River Tyne and the riverbank was barren, LOL

[@jameswebb4593]

How many of the accidents were pilot error or stupidity. One of my schoolboy mates Uncle was killed flying a Meteor . Hit by a squadron comrade who miss judged an intended buzz past , both killed. There is a plaque to a crash site on a golf course in Kent , where two died from a collision . Another acquaintance who was an RAF MP ,witnessed a meteor beating up the airfield clip a wing tip and cartwheel for half a mile. Another victim was W/C Raymond Harries the leading Griffin engined Spitfire ace , killed in 1950 when his Meteor crashed after running out of fuel . Those six incidents are not the aircrafts fault .but the pilots.

[@Beautifultruthofficial]

85 Squadron in flight in the stock footage. M.A.Liskutin flying lead. #maliskutin #liskutin #generalliskutin #85squadron #312squadron #czech

[@alansmithee8831]

A'reyt Catherine. Times when "flying by the seat of your pants" seem to still come before the sort of practices that were already adopted from Operational Research to win the naval Battle of the Atlantic in WW2. There was a BBC4 documentary series that covered British aviation that showed this was not just the one design that had such issues, though not so spooky.

[@WilhelmKarsten]

The Gloster Meatbox had serious design defects and fatal flaws that resulted in its hasty conversion from a twin propeller driven nightfighter into what was intended to be a fighter but performed so poorly that it only saw combat in the ground attack role.

[@petemaly8950]

​@@WilhelmKarsten ​​​ We believe we can help with some apparent misunderstandings. *_Contrary to various copious & ubiquitous posts regarding accident losses of various UK aircraft._* The De Havilland Vampire was a fighter jet with pressurised cockpits & was of primarily metal construction. It also included triple layer hot moulded fibre reinforced cored composite materials which included resins & adhesives still produced for aerospace use. *As they know, the Sea Vixen & Gloster Meteor were indeed very competent & beautiful aircraft.* Of course it is obviously correct that The Gloster Meteor was a potent fighter jet in its day, not used in WW2 as after 1943 it was obvious it wasn't required & it was felt necessary to keep examples out of German & Russian hands. Later marks in service with the RAAF during the Korean conflict were of course not significantly superior enough to the in theory superior Mig & that excuse was used to allow the Meteor to be limited to Australian infantry only ground support mainly for political reasons existing in Australia regarding the Korean war. *Indeed it is the case that the world's first jet aircraft to exceed 1000 mph was of course a British aircraft which broke the previous record by 300 mph & held the record for nearly a year.* _In fact the Meteor was the world's first aircraft to exceed 0.85 on the combined 2 year looks & capability scale for jet fighter aircraft._ _Obviously a particular rather superb Gloster Meteor was the world's first Turboprop aircraft in 1945 & exceptional Gloster Meteors set gas turbine aero engine powered aircraft speed records in 1945 & 1946._ *Of course, British military aircraft at the time did not have unusually high accident losses rates.* The Gloster Meteor was of course produced using the latest aircraft industry knowledge for design & production. *_For example_* De Havilland Vampire & Sea Vixen & Gloster Meteor accident losses were not high or unusual for fighter aircraft at the time. Non combat phase accident losses % of Aircraft built. The Canadair CL-44 was a turboprop airliner. *_Canadair CL-44 (ff 1959 ) 48%_* *Lockheed XF104 (ff 1954) 100%* *Lockheed P80 (ff 1944) 43%* *Lockheed F104 (ff 1954) 45%* *McDonnell FH Phantom (ff 1945) 35%* *_Gloster Meteor (ff 1943) 19.75%_* *_DH Vampire (ff 1943) 23%_* *_DH Sea Vixen (ff 1951) 33%_* *_Gloster Javelin (ff 1951) 20%_* A comparison of two particular particularly relevant militarily related aircraft. Gloster Meteor. 3950 Built. 70% did not have ejector seats. In service 1944. 830 accident losses. 436 accident loss fatalities. 20% accident losses. 11% accident loss Fatalities. Lockheed F104. 2578 Built. In service 1958, 14 years after the Meteor. All had ejector seats. 1100 accident losses. 425 accident loss fatalities. 43% accident losses. 17% accident loss Fatalities. Cheers 👍 & 😎 & of course 🙂 indeed. _Toodle_ *PIP* -Old- *_Chaps_* .. . .. . ... .... . .. .... ..... .... . ..... ............ ........ xcvvvvvvvviixvvcxcxc cvvvvvvcvcvvvvvciiiii

[@pissedoff-is1mt]

The Meteor is no death trap in my eyes. Brand new technology and being a test bed for many many even newer things.

[@WilhelmKarsten]

The _"Meatbox"_ as it was called by the RAF only killed British pilots. 1 out of 3 crashed or were destroyed in accidents. 890 in RAF service killing 450 British pilots

[@petemaly8950]

​​​@@WilhelmKarsten *_Contrary to various copious & ubiquitous posts regarding accident losses of various UK aircraft._* *As they know, the Sea Vixen & Gloster Meteor were indeed very competent & beautiful aircraft.* _In fact the Meteor was the world's first aircraft to exceed 0.85 on the combined 2 year looks & capability scale for jet fighter aircraft._ _A rather superb Gloster Meteor was the world's first Turboprop aircraft in 1945 Gloster Meteors set gas turbine aero engine powered aircraft speed records in 1945 & 1946._ *Of course, British military aircraft at the time did not have unusually high accident losses rates.* *_For example_* De Havilland Vampire & Sea Vixen & Gloster Meteor accident losses were not high or unusual for fighter aircraft at the time. Non combat phase accident losses % of Aircraft built. The Canadair CL-44 was a turboprop airliner. *_Canadair CL-44 (ff 1959 ) 48%_* *Lockheed XF104 (ff 1954) 100%* *Lockheed P80 (ff 1944) 43%* *Lockheed F104 (ff 1954) 45%* *McDonnell FH Phantom (ff 1945) 35%* *_Gloster Meteor (ff 1943) 17%_* *_DH Vampire (ff 1943) 23%_* *_DH Sea Vixen (ff 1951) 33%_* *_Gloster Javelin (ff 1951) 20%_* Cheers 👍 & 😎 & of course 🙂 indeed. _Toodle_ *PIP* -Old- *_Chaps_* .. . .. . ... .... . .... . ..... ...... xcvvvvvvvviix cvvvvvvcvcvv

[@petemaly8950]

*_Contrary to various copious & ubiquitous posts regarding accident losses of various UK aircraft._* *As they know, the Sea Vixen & Gloster Meteor were indeed very competent & beautiful aircraft.* _In fact the Meteor was the world's first aircraft to exceed 0.85 on the combined 2 year looks & capability scale for jet fighter aircraft._ _A rather superb Gloster Meteor was the world's first Turboprop aircraft in 1945 Gloster Meteors set gas turbine aero engine powered aircraft speed records in 1945 & 1946._ *Of course, British military aircraft at the time did not have unusually high accident losses rates.* *_For example_* De Havilland Vampire & Sea Vixen & Gloster Meteor accident losses were not high or unusual for fighter aircraft at the time. Non combat phase accident losses % of Aircraft built. The Canadair CL-44 was a turboprop airliner. *_Canadair CL-44 (ff 1959 ) 48%_* *Lockheed XF104 (ff 1954) 100%* *Lockheed P80 (ff 1944) 43%* *Lockheed F104 (ff 1954) 45%* *McDonnell FH Phantom (ff 1945) 35%* *_Gloster Meteor (ff 1943) 19.75%_* *_DH Vampire (ff 1943) 23%_* *_DH Sea Vixen (ff 1951) 33%_* *_Gloster Javelin (ff 1951) 20%_* A comparison of two particular particularly relevant militarily related aircraft. Gloster Meteor. 3950 Built. 70% did not have ejector seats. In service 1944. 830 accident losses. 436 accident loss fatalities. 20% accident losses. 11% accident loss Fatalities. Lockheed F104. 2578 Built. In service 1958, 14 years after the Meteor. All had ejector seats. 1100 accident losses. 425 accident loss fatalities. 43% accident losses. 17% accident loss Fatalities. Cheers 👍 & 😎 & of course 🙂 indeed. _Toodle_ *PIP* -Old- *_Chaps_* .. . .. . ... .... . .... . ..... ...... xcvvvvvvvviix cvvvvvvcvcvv

[@randomroveruk6715]

I noticed a flight of Canberras (not Meteors) at 3:22. Similar aircraft in some respects. Never mind, we all make mistakes! I enjoy your videos though.

[@harryspeakup8452]

You are making an unsupported assumption. The line talks about Meteor flying making its pilots feel like "part of the new jet generation", which hardly prohibits three seconds of another contemporaneous part of the new jet generation.

[@jimdavison4077]

I noticed that as well but this is not a documentary but a KZbin videos so some amount of laziness is to be expected.

[@CatherineWarr]

@jimdavison4077 I think you'll find that this is a documentary, and the inclusion is not a product of laziness but rather to illustrate the wider jet generation.

[@jimdavison4077]

@@CatherineWarr you think wrong, but thats okay, not the end of the world. I admire your effort.

[@harryspeakup8452]

@@jimdavison4077 I'd be delighted to hear what qualifies you to judge the rightness and wrongness pf what Catherine thinks

[@jimdavison4077]

Given the Meteors were in service of over 30 years with various air forces around the globe it's not shocking the lose rate. Keep in mind later variants had considerable changes in everything from power plant to wings to complete tail sections and design. This was a time when jet technology was at it's infancy and many common known facts, rules and issues had not been discovered yet. The Meteor still holds the record of being the first jet fighter to be used operational at the squadron level in history five months before the Me 262 which was only used in test and trials units while RAF 616 squadron was flying their Meteors operationally in July 1944. It would be December before the Luftwaffe had it's first Me 262 operational unit JG 07 in action in Dec 1944. The second operational Me 262 unit was flown by bomber fighter pilots in KG(J) 54 and lost so many aircraft in one week it had to be withdrawn completely. They claimed four aircraft on one day while records showed only one aircraft downed by the 262 unit. The best and simplest thing to do is not worry very much about claims at all or give them much thought.

[@harryspeakup8452]

That's a fine piece of defensive spin, but the RAF alone lost 145 of them in just the 12 months of 1953

[@jimdavison4077]

@@harryspeakup8452 how is it defensive spin? For many pilots the Meteor was their first introduction to jet aircraft. Not sure if you understand the difference in flying prop aircrat to jet aircraft but its a learning curve with nothing for these pilots to reference. Those losses are the reason we have so many safety standards in both production and flying today. At the time the RAFhad the most knowledge of jet engine out of any airforce in the world and were being presured to keep that cutting edge but with a much lower budget than the USA. The Meteor maintained several world records at the time but did so on a shoe string budget. Thats not being defensive, it's being honest. My country never operated the Meteor other than testing it. They operated the Vampire for their first jet. Then the Voodoo, Starfighter and F5 among others. The Starfighter was a much more dangerous aircraft to fly and had a horrible lose rate. What the creater of this video fails to do is make any affort to understand aviation at that time, its like if they were making a cake it is all about the icing and doesn't care what its going over. On the surface it looks good just don't swallow it. Even with out own Cf 100 pilots tried to push the limits and surpassed its designed stress points and suffered air frame failures in the 50s. Thats not the aircrafts fault. There is a lot to unpack for the Meteor which the creator never bothers doing. For example they changed the wing part what through later models as well as the tail. The center of geavity changed as well. Engines changed drastically as the type used noth Centrifugal and Axial flow turbo jets. Some even had wing tip jet engines. It became the jetmost used for testing new technologies and two are still doing so to this day in Corporate hands. What other first gen jet is still being used today? Maybe a few P80s at air shows. Along with Vampires again at airshows.

[@petemaly8950]

​@@harryspeakup8452 ​ *_Contrary to various copious & ubiquitous posts regarding accident losses of various UK aircraft._* *As they know, the Sea Vixen & Gloster Meteor were indeed very competent & beautiful aircraft.* _In fact the Meteor was the world's first aircraft to exceed 0.85 on the combined 2 year looks & capability scale for jet fighter aircraft._ _A rather superb Gloster Meteor was the world's first Turboprop aircraft in 1945 Gloster Meteors set gas turbine aero engine powered aircraft speed records in 1945 & 1946._ *Of course, British military aircraft at the time did not have unusually high accident losses rates.* *_For example_* De Havilland Vampire & Sea Vixen & Gloster Meteor accident losses were not high or unusual for fighter aircraft at the time. Non combat phase accident losses % of Aircraft built. The Canadair CL-44 was a turboprop airliner. *_Canadair CL-44 (ff 1959 ) 48%_* *Lockheed XF104 (ff 1954) 100%* *Lockheed P80 (ff 1944) 43%* *Lockheed F104 (ff 1954) 45%* *McDonnell FH Phantom (ff 1945) 35%* *_Gloster Meteor (ff 1943) 17%_* *_DH Vampire (ff 1943) 23%_* *_DH Sea Vixen (ff 1951) 33%_* *_Gloster Javelin (ff 1951) 20%_* Indeed, many losses for example were simply due to problems with flying on instruments in low cloud coupled with conversion from single engine piston engine aircraft or inadvisable assymetric engine training methods. Cheers 👍 & 😎 & of course 🙂 indeed. _Toodle_ *PIP* -Old- *_Chaps_* .. . .. . ... .... . .... . ..... ...... xcvvvvvvvviix cvvvvvvcvcvv

[@victorpearson1418]

Excellent balanced study . Hard to have sleep paralysis when awake though !

[@allandavis8201]

Putting aside the tragedy of so many lost pilots, in my opinion it was a catalogue of circumstances that led to such a dramatic loss rate, new engineering practices, a completely new way to fly, and perhaps some overconfidence in their own abilities by pilots, but whatever the truth might be it can’t be forgotten that Meteor was the second operational jet aircraft in the world and despite its history of tragedy it had an incredibly long service life, not many early jets can boast that record. If the early aviation pioneers had given up trying to perfect the aircraft and theory of flight we might never have got into the air, despite the huge numbers of aviation accidents and deaths they persevered and today we have the safest form of travel in our history, the jet aircraft, but when the jet engined aircraft first flew it was like going back in time to those early days of aviation when the pioneers of flight died in droves, just as the men who flew the meteors did, we should be grateful to everyone of them, every lost life taught pilots and engineers valuable lessons that have helped us to understand and improve our aircraft and in doing so they saved more lives than were lost.

[@WilhelmKarsten]

The Gloster Meatbox was unfortunately simply a very poorly designed aircraft that was very hastily converted from a twin propeller driven nightfighter to what is probably the worst jet in history and certainly the worse jet to serve in the RAF.

[@petemaly8950]

​@@WilhelmKarsten We believe we can help with some apparent misunderstandings. *_Contrary to various copious & ubiquitous posts regarding accident losses of various UK aircraft._* The De Havilland Vampire was a fighter jet with pressurised cockpits & was of primarily metal construction. It also included triple layer hit moulded fibre reinforced cured composite materials which included resins & adhesives still produced for aerospace use. *As they know, the Sea Vixen & Gloster Meteor were indeed very competent & beautiful aircraft.* Of course it is obviously correct that The Gloster Meteor was a potent fighter jet in its day, not used in WW2 as after 1943 it was obvious it wasn't required & it was felt necessary to keep examples out of German & Russian hands. *Indeed it is the case that the world's first jet aircraft to exceed 1000 mph was of course a British aircraft which broke the previous record by 300 mph & held the record for nearly a year.* _In fact the Meteor was the world's first aircraft to exceed 0.85 on the combined 2 year looks & capability scale for jet fighter aircraft._ _Obviously a particular rather superb Gloster Meteor was the world's first Turboprop aircraft in 1945 & exceptional Gloster Meteors set gas turbine aero engine powered aircraft speed records in 1945 & 1946._ *Of course, British military aircraft at the time did not have unusually high accident losses rates.* *_For example_* De Havilland Vampire & Sea Vixen & Gloster Meteor accident losses were not high or unusual for fighter aircraft at the time. Non combat phase accident losses % of Aircraft built. The Canadair CL-44 was a turboprop airliner. *_Canadair CL-44 (ff 1959 ) 48%_* *Lockheed XF104 (ff 1954) 100%* *Lockheed P80 (ff 1944) 43%* *Lockheed F104 (ff 1954) 45%* *McDonnell FH Phantom (ff 1945) 35%* *_Gloster Meteor (ff 1943) 19.75%_* *_DH Vampire (ff 1943) 23%_* *_DH Sea Vixen (ff 1951) 33%_* *_Gloster Javelin (ff 1951) 20%_* A comparison of two particular particularly relevant militarily related aircraft. Gloster Meteor. 3950 Built. 70% did not have ejector seats. In service 1944. 830 accident losses. 436 accident loss fatalities. 20% accident losses. 11% accident loss Fatalities. Lockheed F104. 2578 Built. In service 1958, 14 years after the Meteor. All had ejector seats. 1100 accident losses. 425 accident loss fatalities. 43% accident losses. 17% accident loss Fatalities. Cheers 👍 & 😎 & of course 🙂 indeed. _Toodle_ *PIP* -Old- *_Chaps_* .. . .. . ... .... . .. .... ..... .... . ..... ............ ........ xcvvvvvvvviixvvcxcxc cvvvvvvcvcvvvvvciiiii

[@WilhelmKarsten]

@@petemaly8950 *The Meatbox only killed British pilots during WW2.*

[@petemaly8950]

@@WilhelmKarsten ​ We believe we can help with some apparent misunderstandings. *_Contrary to various copious & ubiquitous posts regarding accident losses of various UK aircraft._* *If the most advanced & safest fighter aircraft in the world at the time is not used during a conflict against an enemy because it's use was not urgently required then of course it's likely that training & development research incidents will be the only incidents related to the aircraft. Obviously the fabulous Gloster Meteor did in fact see some limited action against an enemy before 1945.* The De Havilland Vampire was a fighter jet with pressurised cockpits & was of primarily metal construction. It also included triple layer hit moulded fibre reinforced cured composite materials which included resins & adhesives still produced for aerospace use. *As they know, the Sea Vixen & Gloster Meteor were indeed very competent & beautiful aircraft.* Of course it is obviously correct that The Gloster Meteor was a potent fighter jet in its day, not used in WW2 as after 1943 it was obvious it wasn't required & it was felt necessary to keep examples out of German & Russian hands. *Indeed it is the case that the world's first jet aircraft to exceed 1000 mph was of course a British aircraft which broke the previous record by 300 mph & held the record for nearly a year.* _In fact the Meteor was the world's first aircraft to exceed 0.85 on the combined 2 year looks & capability scale for jet fighter aircraft._ _Obviously a particular rather superb Gloster Meteor was the world's first Turboprop aircraft in 1945 & exceptional Gloster Meteors set gas turbine aero engine powered aircraft speed records in 1945 & 1946._ *Of course, British military aircraft at the time did not have unusually high accident losses rates.* *_For example_* De Havilland Vampire & Sea Vixen & Gloster Meteor accident losses were not high or unusual for fighter aircraft at the time. Non combat phase accident losses % of Aircraft built. The Canadair CL-44 was a turboprop airliner. *_Canadair CL-44 (ff 1959 ) 48%_* *Lockheed XF104 (ff 1954) 100%* *Lockheed P80 (ff 1944) 43%* *Lockheed F104 (ff 1954) 45%* *McDonnell FH Phantom (ff 1945) 35%* *_Gloster Meteor (ff 1943) 19.75%_* *_DH Vampire (ff 1943) 23%_* *_DH Sea Vixen (ff 1951) 33%_* *_Gloster Javelin (ff 1951) 20%_* A comparison of two particular particularly relevant militarily related aircraft. Gloster Meteor. 3950 Built. 70% did not have ejector seats. In service 1944. 830 accident losses. 436 accident loss fatalities. 20% accident losses. 11% accident loss Fatalities. Lockheed F104. 2578 Built. In service 1958, 14 years after the Meteor. All had ejector seats. 1100 accident losses. 425 accident loss fatalities. 43% accident losses. 17% accident loss Fatalities. Hope this helps. *Cheers* 👍 & 😎 & of course 🙂 indeed. _Toodle_ *PIP* -Old- *_Chaps_* .. . .. . ... .... . .. .... ..... .... . ..... ............ ........ xcvvvvvvvviixvvcxcxc cvvvvvvcvcvvvvvciiiii

[@WilhelmKarsten]

*The basic overall design of the Meatbox was fatally flawed.* *Gloster continuously tried to improve the aircraft eg; improved tail, stronger fuselage and different wings, stronger wings, ect.* *Unfortunately as a result of being very hastily converted from a twin propeller driven nightfighter design it was plagued with flaws inherent to the fundamental design.* *It was directionally unstable at nearly all speeds and tended to pitch down uncontrollably at low speeds and a nasty tendency to snap into a flat spin at high speed.* *The asymmetric handling was appallingly and was considered unrecoverable and fatal during take-off or a go- around.* *RAF Cheif Air Marshall Sir Frederick William Bowhill called the Meatbox a quote; **_"a truly dismal and lackluster aircraft"_* *Sydney Camm said Gloster tried everything but flipping the engines and pilot seat around and flying it backwards.*

[@petemaly8950]

*_Contrary to various copious & ubiquitous posts regarding accident losses of various UK aircraft._* *As they know, the Sea Vixen & Gloster Meteor were indeed very competent & beautiful aircraft.* _In fact the Meteor was the world's first aircraft to exceed 0.85 on the combined 2 year looks & capability scale for jet fighter aircraft._ _ Yes thats a vood question & it is an undeniable fact that a rather superb Gloster Meteor was the world's first Turboprop aircraft in 1945 & remarkably effective Gloster Meteors set gas turbine aero engine powered aircraft speed records in 1945 & 1946._ *Of course, British military aircraft at the time did not have unusually high accident losses rates.* Of course that is correct, the Gloster Meteor did indeed have a 100% successful 100% combat kill ratio during its operational in service time during WW2. *_For example_* De Havilland Vampire & Sea Vixen & Gloster Meteor accident losses were not high or unusual for fighter aircraft at the time. Non combat phase accident losses % of Aircraft built. The Canadair CL-44 was a turboprop airliner. *_Canadair CL-44 (ff 1959 ) 48%_* *Lockheed XF104 (ff 1954) 100%* *Lockheed P80 (ff 1944) 43%* *Lockheed F104 (ff 1954) 45%* *McDonnell FH Phantom (ff 1945) 35%* *_Gloster Meteor (ff 1943) 19.75%_* *_DH Vampire (ff 1943) 23%_* *_DH Sea Vixen (ff 1951) 33%_* *_Gloster Javelin (ff 1951) 20%_* A comparison of two particular particularly relevant related mainly militarily aircraft of interesting interest. Gloster Meteor. 3950 Built. 70% did not have ejector seats. In service 1944. 830 accident losses. 436 accident loss fatalities. 20% accident losses. 11% accident loss Fatalities. Lockheed F104. 2578 Built. In service 1958, 14 years after the Meteor. All had ejector seats. 1100 accident losses. 425 accident loss fatalities. 43% accident losses. 17% accident loss Fatalities. Cheers 👍 & 😎 & of course 🙂 indeed. _Toodle_ *PIP* -Old- *_Chaps_* Hope this helps 👍 .. . .. . ... .... . . .... . ..... ...... xcvvvvvvvviix cvvvvvvcvcvv

[@petemaly8950]

We believe we can clear up a misunderztandung. That's indeed a good question. Yes, it is correct that of course it is in fact the case that Chief Air Marshall Frederick William Bowhill, Air chief marshal Sir Frederick William Bowhill, GBE, KCB, CMG, DSO & Bar (1 September 1880 - 12 March 1960), a senior commander in the Royal Air Force before and during World War II, of course did not state at anytime that the Gloster Meteor was a lacklustre or dismal aircraft & nobody ever claimed that Gloster engineers tried everything but flying it backwards. Cheers 👍 & 😎 & of course 🙂 indeed. _Toodle_ *PIP* *-Old-* *_Chaps_* Hope this helps 👍 .. . .. . ... .... . . .... . ..... ...... xcvvvvvvvviix cvvvvvvcvcvv

[@harryspeakup8452]

Having just watched this again: sure, early jet aviation was dangerous. REALLY dangerous. But imagine yourself in 1950s Britain, an era of austerity, rationing, coming to terms with the loss and trauma of war. And imagine being 20 in that era, and being able to dream of flying a Meteor or Vampire. To be one of these select few. Is anyone in the world cooler than these guys in their sunglasses, sliding their canopies closed and spooling up their turbines? Sure it's risky... but I'd do it, and for a few years I'd feel on top of the world (providing my luck held)

[@WilhelmKarsten]

RAF pilots didn't call it the _"Meatbox"_ for nothing... it was not structurally sound, was directionally unstable at any speed and its asymmetric handling was deadly, an engine failure on take-off (a common occurrence) was considered unrecoverable and fatal. It only killed British pilots during WW2

[@harryspeakup8452]

@@WilhelmKarsten How many Meteor pilots have you talked to? I know three

[@WilhelmKarsten]

@@harryspeakup8452 *I know 450 british pilots that were killed by the **_"Meatbox"_** ... it is the worst jet aircraft ever in operational RAF service.*

[@harryspeakup8452]

@@WilhelmKarsten As I thought, you have neither flown a Meteor nor spoken to anyone who has first experience of it

[@petemaly8950]

​@@WilhelmKarsten ​ We believe we can help with some apparent misunderstandings. *_Contrary to various copious & ubiquitous posts regarding accident losses of various UK aircraft._* *As they know, the Sea Vixen & Gloster Meteor were indeed very competent & beautiful aircraft.* Of course it is obviously correct that The Gloster Meteor was a potent fighter jet in its day, not used in WW2 as after 1943 it was obvious it wasn't required & it was felt necessary to keep examples out of German & Russian hands. *Indeed it is the case that the world's first jet aircraft to exceed 1000 mph was of course a British aircraft which broke the previous record by 300 mph & held the record for nearly a year.* _In fact the Meteor was the world's first aircraft to exceed 0.85 on the combined 2 year looks & capability scale for jet fighter aircraft._ _Obviously a particular rather superb Gloster Meteor was the world's first Turboprop aircraft in 1945 & exceptional Gloster Meteors set gas turbine aero engine powered aircraft speed records in 1945 & 1946._ *Of course, British military aircraft at the time did not have unusually high accident losses rates.* *_For example_* De Havilland Vampire & Sea Vixen & Gloster Meteor accident losses were not high or unusual for fighter aircraft at the time. Non combat phase accident losses % of Aircraft built. The Canadair CL-44 was a turboprop airliner. *_Canadair CL-44 (ff 1959 ) 48%_* *Lockheed XF104 (ff 1954) 100%* *Lockheed P80 (ff 1944) 43%* *Lockheed F104 (ff 1954) 45%* *McDonnell FH Phantom (ff 1945) 35%* *_Gloster Meteor (ff 1943) 19.75%_* *_DH Vampire (ff 1943) 23%_* *_DH Sea Vixen (ff 1951) 33%_* *_Gloster Javelin (ff 1951) 20%_* A comparison of two particular particularly relevant militarily related aircraft. Gloster Meteor. 3950 Built. 70% did not have ejector seats. In service 1944. 830 accident losses. 436 accident loss fatalities. 20% accident losses. 11% accident loss Fatalities. Lockheed F104. 2578 Built. In service 1958, 14 years after the Meteor. All had ejector seats. 1100 accident losses. 425 accident loss fatalities. 43% accident losses. 17% accident loss Fatalities. Cheers 👍 & 😎 & of course 🙂 indeed. _Toodle_ *PIP* -Old- *_Chaps_* .. . .. . ... .... . .. .... .... . ..... ............ .. xcvvvvvvvviixvvc cvvvvvvcvcvvvvvc

[@petemaly8950]

We believe we can clear up a misunderztandung. That's indeed a good question. Yes, it is correct that of course it is in fact the case that Chief Air Marshall Frederick William Bowhill, Air chief marshal Sir Frederick William Bowhill, GBE, KCB, CMG, DSO & Bar (1 September 1880 - 12 March 1960), a senior commander in the Royal Air Force before and during World War II, of course did not state at anytime that the Gloster Meteor was a lacklustre or dismal aircraft & nobody ever claimed that Gloster engineers tried everything but flying it backwards. Cheers 👍 & 😎 & of course 🙂 indeed. _Toodle_ *PIP* *-Old-* *_Chaps_* Hope this helps 👍 .. . .. . ... .... . . .... . ..... ...... xcvvvvvvvviix cvvvvvvcvcvv

[@Eric-kn4yn]

Were later meteor mks safer

[@harryspeakup8452]

Not really in terms of the aircraft itself. What improved was the operational attitude to flight safety. For example, while it is reasonable to practice an asymmetric approach, no-one today would do so by actually shutting down an engine for that purpose. You do it by leaving the engine idling. And you don't try to take off again on one engine - that is a no-win exercise in something with widely-spaced engines. Another big benefit to flight safety in more modern times is the availability of superior nav equipment so that you are much less likely to lose situational awareness in poor weather and run out of fuel trying to find somewhere to land. Even a low-cost compact GPS is a big help there

[@WilhelmKarsten]

The basic overall design of the Meatbox was fatally flawed. Gloster continuously tried to improve the aircraft eg; improved tail, stronger fuselage and different wings, stronger wings, ect. Unfortunately as a result of being very hastily converted from a twin propeller driven nightfighter design it was plagued with flaws inherent to the fundamental design. It was directionally unstable at nearly all speeds and tended to pitch down uncontrollably at low speeds and a nasty tendency to snap into a flat spin at high speed. The asymmetric handling was appallingly and was considered unrecoverable and fatal during take-off or a go- around. RAF Cheif Air Marshall Sir Frederick William Bowhill called the Meatbox a quote; _"a truly dismal and lackluster aircraft"_ Sydney Camm once quipped; _"Gloster tried everything but flipping the engines and the pilot seat round to see if it flew better backwards"_

[@petemaly8950]

​@@WilhelmKarsten We believe we can help with some apparent misunderstandings. *_Contrary to various copious & ubiquitous posts regarding accident losses of various UK aircraft._* The De Havilland Vampire was a fighter jet with pressurised cockpits & was of primarily metal construction. It also included triple layer hit moulded fibre reinforced cured composite materials which included resins & adhesives still produced for aerospace use. *As they know, the Sea Vixen & Gloster Meteor were indeed very competent & beautiful aircraft.* Of course it is obviously correct that The Gloster Meteor was a potent fighter jet in its day, not used in WW2 as after 1943 it was obvious it wasn't required & it was felt necessary to keep examples out of German & Russian hands. *Indeed it is the case that the world's first jet aircraft to exceed 1000 mph was of course a British aircraft which broke the previous record by 300 mph & held the record for nearly a year.* _In fact the Meteor was the world's first aircraft to exceed 0.85 on the combined 2 year looks & capability scale for jet fighter aircraft._ _Obviously a particular rather superb Gloster Meteor was the world's first Turboprop aircraft in 1945 & exceptional Gloster Meteors set gas turbine aero engine powered aircraft speed records in 1945 & 1946._ No Senior RAF personnel including test pilots ever uttered significant criticisms & denigrations related to the Gloster Meteor, if such statements are seen anywhere regarding claims related to serious criticisms regarding the Gloster Meteor made by senior RAF personnel those claims are fiction. *Of course, British military aircraft at the time did not have unusually high accident losses rates.* *_For example_* De Havilland Vampire & Sea Vixen & Gloster Meteor accident losses were not high or unusual for fighter aircraft at the time. Non combat phase accident losses % of Aircraft built. The Canadair CL-44 was a turboprop airliner. *_Canadair CL-44 (ff 1959 ) 48%_* *Lockheed XF104 (ff 1954) 100%* *Lockheed P80 (ff 1944) 43%* *Lockheed F104 (ff 1954) 45%* *McDonnell FH Phantom (ff 1945) 35%* *_Gloster Meteor (ff 1943) 19.75%_* *_DH Vampire (ff 1943) 23%_* *_DH Sea Vixen (ff 1951) 33%_* *_Gloster Javelin (ff 1951) 20%_* A comparison of two particular particularly relevant militarily related aircraft. Gloster Meteor. 3950 Built. 70% did not have ejector seats. In service 1944. 830 accident losses. 436 accident loss fatalities. 20% accident losses. 11% accident loss Fatalities. Lockheed F104. 2578 Built. In service 1958, 14 years after the Meteor. All had ejector seats. 1100 accident losses. 425 accident loss fatalities. 43% accident losses. 17% accident loss Fatalities. Cheers 👍 & 😎 & of course 🙂 indeed. _Toodle_ *PIP* -Old- *_Chaps_* .. . .. . ... .... . .. .... ..... .... . ..... ............ ........ xcvvvvvvvviixvvcxcxc cvvvvvvcvcvvvvvciiiii

[@AnthonyBrown12324]

I think there was also something inherently wrong with the design. I don't believe the Vampire had this level of accidents . The UK was just too poor to develop new designs quickly. Nearly 10 years for the Hunter to get into service

[@harryspeakup8452]

The Vampire's single-engined configuration by definition eliminated all the problems of assymetric flight in a high powered type, at a time when most fighter pilots had almost all their previous experience on other single-engined types.

[@AnthonyBrown12324]

yes it was much lighter and smaller so one engine was sufficient and still able ti incorporate some wood in the structure! The RAF even had to resort to using Canadian Sabres in the 50s ( another Airfix kit ) to overcome shortcomings in the Meteor . I believe many pilots preferred them to the early Hunter ; although the Mk6 was a suberbe design ; yet another recent Airfix kit tooling in 1/48 @@harryspeakup8452

[@WilhelmKarsten]

de Havilland aircraft in general suffered much higher than average loss rates and fatalities... the Vampire, a jet aircraft made primarily from wood and fabric did not have an exemplary record with 82 crashed in 1951 in non-combat operations. Better than the Meatbox but not by much! I agree, the RAF would not have an effective, well-designed, well built jet fighter until the Hawker Hunter, it was also the first to have a proper (axial) jet engine. Early British jets were plagued by obsolete centrifugal engines...this was a evolutionary dead-end concept that Britain wasted over a decade developing but was obsolete on arrival.

[@AnthonyBrown12324]

@@WilhelmKarsten yes I believe Eric Brown was saying that the British started with the centrifugal engine because it was simpler and more reliable . The British were just so short of money ; they didn't have the money to invest in improved aircraft . The amount of part time pilots in the RAF might also have been a problem ; some of the accidents were due to pilot error . There was an interesting article in Flypast on the issue ; can't remember which . Asymmetrical power was also a problem in the Meteor , not in the Vampire .

[@petemaly8950]

​​​@@WilhelmKarsten We believe we can help with some apparent misunderstandings. *_Contrary to various copious & ubiquitous posts regarding accident losses of various UK aircraft._* The De Havilland Vampire was a fighter jet with pressurised cockpits & was of primarily metal construction. It also included triple layer hit moulded fibre reinforced cured composite materials which included resins & adhesives still produced for aerospace use. *As they know, the Sea Vixen & Gloster Meteor were indeed very competent & beautiful aircraft.* Of course it is obviously correct that The Gloster Meteor was a potent fighter jet in its day, not used in WW2 as after 1943 it was obvious it wasn't required & it was felt necessary to keep examples out of German & Russian hands. *Indeed it is the case that the world's first jet aircraft to exceed 1000 mph was of course a British aircraft which broke the previous record by 300 mph & held the record for nearly a year.* _In fact the Meteor was the world's first aircraft to exceed 0.85 on the combined 2 year looks & capability scale for jet fighter aircraft._ _Obviously a particular rather superb Gloster Meteor was the world's first Turboprop aircraft in 1945 & exceptional Gloster Meteors set gas turbine aero engine powered aircraft speed records in 1945 & 1946._ *Of course, British military aircraft at the time did not have unusually high accident losses rates.* *_For example_* De Havilland Vampire & Sea Vixen & Gloster Meteor accident losses were not high or unusual for fighter aircraft at the time. Non combat phase accident losses % of Aircraft built. The Canadair CL-44 was a turboprop airliner. *_Canadair CL-44 (ff 1959 ) 48%_* *Lockheed XF104 (ff 1954) 100%* *Lockheed P80 (ff 1944) 43%* *Lockheed F104 (ff 1954) 45%* *McDonnell FH Phantom (ff 1945) 35%* *_Gloster Meteor (ff 1943) 19.75%_* *_DH Vampire (ff 1943) 23%_* *_DH Sea Vixen (ff 1951) 33%_* *_Gloster Javelin (ff 1951) 20%_* A comparison of two particular particularly relevant militarily related aircraft. Gloster Meteor. 3950 Built. 70% did not have ejector seats. In service 1944. 830 accident losses. 436 accident loss fatalities. 20% accident losses. 11% accident loss Fatalities. Lockheed F104. 2578 Built. In service 1958, 14 years after the Meteor. All had ejector seats. 1100 accident losses. 425 accident loss fatalities. 43% accident losses. 17% accident loss Fatalities. Cheers 👍 & 😎 & of course 🙂 indeed. _Toodle_ *PIP* -Old- *_Chaps_* .. . .. . ... .... . .. .... ..... .... . ..... ............ ........ xcvvvvvvvviixvvcxcxc cvvvvvvcvcvvvvvciiiii

[@theoneforgaveme]

Im mr Middleton from leeds.