Gloomhaven: Jaws of the Lion Review - with Liz Davidson

[@damobdaking]

This is why I really apricate the dice tower as reviewers of games. Just watched Mike give his review, then came to watch Liz, and it was 20 odd minutes of intelligent robust analysis.

[@TheRASDEL83]

This is the second time I write this comment but I would love "Jaws of the Lions" to be like a spin off series of Gloomhaven. Smaller boxes with interchangeable components it seems way more approachable than the beast that it's Gloomhaven.

[@thebrewgeek]

Agree with your comments 100%. The use of the book instead of tiles is genius. Setup time is reduced substantially and that makes a big difference in getting it to the table.

[@rpgamerpro9972]

I don't know if a book could replace tiles in all games of this sort, but publishers should certainly try to do so! If a game has static tile layouts instead of random layouts, book over tiles all day long! So much better.

[@LegoAssassin098]

They've actually announced that they will be producing these books for the regular gloomhaven and frosthaven, as an expansion!

[@gordonghostway2882]

Homegirl has such a great personality! I can tell she'd be great to play games with!

[@philipargo]

This is the first of your videos I've seen, as I've recently bought this game and it's my first solo boxed game that's not digital. I will be subscribing because I appreciate your ideas on how the playbook enhances the game and makes it more accessible to non-gamers or family, w3hile we are in a great evolutionary phase of this type of game. Apologies for the atrocious grammar. Great video explanation I can hopefully use to get my gf to play this game with me!

[@Sui2807]

I own Gloomhaven, but haven't actually played it yet. I'm waiting to play this first, because I tend to get overwhelmed a little easily, and I feel that with Gloomhaven, even though it impresses the heck out of me, and I want to play it. But I want to use this game as an tutorial because of those introductory missions. I know I'll be getting Frosthaven as well.

[@SolidStateSoul]

Isaac has told me that he takes a lot of inspiration from video games. One thing video games have been good about for a long time now, is having intuitive tutorials at the beginning. (When was the last time you needed to read a video game manual?) It's sad that step-staged tutorials in heavy board games is still not a standard. Maybe JotL will break that ice and set a trend. I'd be a lot more interested in playing heavy games if I didn't have to read a 30-40 page manual first, and then constantly recheck the rules. There's no reason complex board games can't make learning their intricacies a more natural and easy flowing process. (Unless it's ASL, you have to give up on life to learn it.)

[@Teachermook]

Honestly I think a fewlegacy games do this in a way. Charterstone and betrayal legacy come to mind.

[@mgranvee8549]

Dawn of the Zeds, another great solo game, has a terrific incremental introduction of the rules. There are separate instruction booklets and the game gets more in-depth as you gradually add various gameplay elements. Made learning the game so easy. Plus, you have the ability to play at various difficulties which in essence, uses (or doesn’t use) different elements of play.

[@Tr1n1tyNZ]

Good to know. I’ve been looking into Dawn of the Zeds for solo play but was a bit put off when I saw there were five rule books!

[@tylerbrown9797]

You really give some great food for thought here on the design implications of jotl!

[@suzirondot5097]

Yes Los, I wish new games would include a tutorial system. Though I really prefer Sci-fi, I preordered this to check it out for myself. I’m also eagerly waiting for someone to come out with “SpaceHaven”, as Tom dubbed it. 9 I was thinking of it as “Gloomhaven! In! space!” myself.) Just adding a wish for large-print editions since I have vision issues. I don’t have AP, but I do have to use a magnifier for everything, which really slows me down; hence, solitaire. Thanks for your reviews and thoughts! Suzi

[@JoshuaGoudreau]

Im playing Jaws of the Lion right now and it's amazing. The ease of setup and takedown is really one of my favorite parts of the experience. More big box games need to go the Atuffed Fables and Aftermath route. The last campaign game I played was Dungeon of the Mad Mage so a book wouldn't work for that or any game where revealing tiles is part of gameplay, but the campaign game I played before that was Cthulhu Death May Die and I absolutely wish I had a book instead of tiles. Isaac Childress said they are planning on making books for Gloomhaven and Frosthaven and I really hope they are out before I finish JotL.

[@thisisnootnoots]

As someone currently in progress of playing through the Dungeon of the Mad Mage "campaign", was JotL an easy game to transition to in terms of game gameplay? Partner and I are currently on the fence about trying JotR, and later on Gloomhaven 2

[@tonygilbert5256]

Liz, since I started watching reviews about Gloomhaven Jaws of the Lion, what made the most sense was to put this system into a universe like Fallout. With the book, as opposed to the tiles, I think there can be a lot more contest, especially with a game universe that has "random battles." I think adding additional mechanics to a game like this that aren't combat would make it even better. Jumping back to Fallout, there could be skill checks, like lockpicking or science put into the game, and it would add a lot more interesting ideas. Then again, I might just be talking out of my butt as I am still very new to gaming. I just played Pandemic for the first time last night with my wife... So there is that.

[@kmontzka]

Thanks for your thoughts on this one. I’ve been avoiding it due to all the GH JOTL hype, however all the points made here change my mind. I agree completely that other complex games offering a simpler way to begin playing are essential, at least with my family. Spirit Island is the most recent one - pre-made starting hands, upgrade order for power cards, low-complexity spirits. All of these helped ease the burden of learning the game as well as feeling ready to take the next steps. Plus, like you mentioned, it’s another great solo game to explore on my own anytime.

[@ScottJones-ux5tt]

Imagine if Mage Knight had this on boarding experience...

[@wicaksonoadi1035]

I'd buy it in a heartbeat...

[@dreed500]

Yes and yes! Mage Knight is on my list of games I’m interested in but having limited time to game each week, I worry that it would take me weeks to just grasp the basics without playing at all. Anything that speeds up entry, well I would be a fan of.

[@ScottJones-ux5tt]

@@dreed500 First night with Mage Knight was about 4 hours of setup and rule book reading to comprehend it. I played through the intro scenario...it does a marginal job of preparing you for the whole game. Every time I play I have to refer to the rulebook - primarily die to interactions feeling convoluted. I love the game, but if MK had something like JOTL (I believe) it would easily be more enjoyable for a lot of the board gaming community. If you get it...make sure you have a good chunk of time to set aside for learning it 😕

[@dnaseb9214]

you are very good at making reviews

[@RageBadgerGaming]

My wife loves the book instead of the tiles, so you're not alone! Love the very enthusiastic review!

[@Samuel-km5yf]

This is the first review of Liz’s that I’ve watched. Dang... great job! Thanks for the excellent review. You rock!

[@draheim90]

I bought Robinson Crusoe and Jaws of the Lion around the same time, primarily for solo. I went to play RC and lost interest after 45 mins of reading rules and watching the play video…I’ll come back to it I just could not mentally handle or invest in learning it all at once at that time, it was too much of a barrier. I went to JotL a few days after and the tutorial (and relatively quick setup after sorting the monster bags) made a world of difference. Being slowly introduced rules makes it so much less daunting and had me wanting to play more and more, unlike RC in which I couldn’t get over that hurdle of having to jump right in to the first scenario which I’ve heard is difficult. So while I usually play lighter and quicker games given my wife is not a gamer, I chose a few heavier solo games (RC, JotL, Hadrian’s Wall) and I will say RC definitely could have benefitted from a JotL-like introduction, even though it’s not exactly the same type of game.

[@inwoolee4051]

Ms. Davidson, could you review solo mode for Spirit Island? Excellent review as always btw!

[@joxer96]

I wonder if the new edition of Descent would benefit from this approach. Fantasy Flight, take note!

[@LegoAssassin098]

Personally, I love these type of tutorials. Some of the more complicated games I enjoy would save me a lot of time learning the game, especially if I must also teach someone else. I love solo gaming because, as you said, it allows me to play boardgames more often, when I don't t have a game group or people who are as passionate as I am. I also LOVE it when companies put solo modes in their games. Not only does it allow me to play it more often, I will use that mode to learn a basic premise of how those mechanisms work in tandem. It can be difficult to understand rules, especially for a complex game. The 3 most complex games I enjoy are spirit island, Gloomhaven:JotL, and Twilight Struggle (online). Having some tutorial missions would save me from feeling like I have no idea what I'm doing. I don't think it's feasible for every game, probably not even for most. But tutorials, even just through one game (I guess that's basically a more tactile version of Rodney Smith, in a way) would do a lot to get more complex games to more people. And there's a lot of complex games (18XX, ASL, War games, Train games, etc.) that have really limited audiences. I think a tutorial for them would help get people up to speed and help more people enjoy those games.

[@Chereebers]

Like your boyfriend, my husband isn’t as much of a gamer as I am so I definitely welcome games that ramp up slowly via tutorial. I bought JotL but haven’t played yet. (It’s stuck at my mom’s in the USA - she was going to bring it over to the UK the next time she visited but that’s all up in the air due to covid.) Meanwhile, my husband and I are playing Aeon’s End Legacy which I chose for similar reasons - slower introduction to the game. Love your content Liz. :)

[@snailysaurus]

Awesome review, Liz!

[@amysinger2201]

I REEAAALLY agree with you and would love to see more heavier games do this! I also like the solo option. I used to live in Chicago so it was no problem finding someone to share a game with. I now live in Montana and my game group is great, but is not up for a heavier style game like Gloomhaven. I like that I now have the flexibility to still enjoy the game even if I can't find anyone to play with. I also like the "tutorial" version of a game that lets me "indoctrinate" folks. Killer Bunnies has done this and now has a "lite" version. For the elitets: if Target picks it up.... less likely to go out of print and more likely to see more games of this type in the mainstream, which means more games overall!!!

[@hombrepollo]

Haven´t played it yet (neither its big brother) Legends of Andor introduces the different rules legend by legend. I love how that idea works

[@williamroop451]

I believe that heavier games could learn from Jaws of the Lion's "tutorial" missions. While the campaign-style setting lets JotL make them mini-scenarios, a game like Dominant Species - with all it's moving parts - can use a simple tutorial game using only a small part of the board with pre-set scenarios that highlight certain aspects of the game. Krosmaster Arena has a tutorial built in the rulebook to give examples of certain concepts as have a few others. The success of Watch-it-played style videos also hints at a need for game tutoring as well. On to the scenario book... While it works VERY well in this case due to the limited campaign, it would probably limit larger campaign games. Shadows of Brimstone, Imperial Assault, Mansions of Madness - just a few examples of how modular board systems make for ease of expandability. But I WOULD find it interesting if someone were to create a heavier Euro game with a standard set of mechanics and a couple of books full of gameboards that could be mix-and-matched to form varied play spaces to use the mechanics on. Think of Lords of Waterdeep, Scythe, or Dead of Winter played in other locations with various set ups and resource availability. Thank you for sparking the creative spark in the community. I give this video a 9.5 out of 10 and the Dice Tower fan seal of approval

[@JayJay-if5rl]

Thanks Liz. It’s not out in the UK yet but I’m really looking forward to this game. I’ve had Gloomhaven for 18 months and not even opened it because as a predominantly solo gamer (husband not interested), I often can’t face or have the time for the learning stage of a new game and scouring BGG forums for answers to queries. I’d love games to come with tutorials - it wasn’t a tutorial per se but the first game pre-set-up of Aeons End made all the difference to learning it. So my fingers are crossed that more games adopt this approach. Also loved your comment “You can sneeze and win this game”

[@ericcampbell9553]

Nice job once again lady! Prob gunna get this game.

[@IODISH12]

Brilliant example of scaffolding that I want to share with my instructional designers.

[@danielbuday1895]

The problem with giant-box heavier games like Frosthaven, Oathsworn, Primal, etc is that it’s hard to invest hundreds of dollars into a game if you’re just not going to like it. Jaws of the Lion feels like and RPG starter set. Try before you invest. After all, many video games have demos, so a heavy board game should do the same.

[@tiktoklover3043]

I would prefer these maps on a page instead of tiles for quicker set up. I find the Red Raven games do this best with their latest games like Near and Far or Sleeping gods.

[@furstyferret81]

Hurry and release it in the UK! Would like to know at least a proper date...

[@adrianhill3797]

20/08/20

[@furstyferret81]

Ahh that's not too bad, thought it would be like the 31st or something. Hopefully arrive by that weekend 🤞🏻

[@adrianhill3797]

@@furstyferret81 make sure you pre order!

[@furstyferret81]

Already done with Zatu, still have their preorders open so hopefully they have enough copies to fulfil the orders...

[@julielane3073]

I am going to be playing 2 handed with the Voidwarden. Any suggestions on which other one makes a better companion for her?

[@Booneface]

Great incites and review. I'm not sure if you use a independent Mic, the audio is a little sharp. Perhaps a little lapel mic would be warmer. Great job, I hope this can be taken as constructive and not a complaint.

[@billyguinigundo4849]

Curious if there are any solo negatives? And preferred method to play?

[@IODISH12]

8 scenarios completed solo. I LOVE it

[@billyguinigundo4849]

Awesome. Can't wait for my FLGS to get it in. Supposed to be next week I think!

[@seansmith2650]

Wonder if we will get an expansion eith more characters

[@DrJJ-qk6jv]

Great review Liz. Nice summary!

[@weidinimagic]

So if I already have Gloomhaven but have not gotten to far would buying this and working through the tutorials help me get into it so I will have more success in getting into Gloomhaven proper? Thanks

[@TheMexicanSuperman1]

Yes

[@dancheston5786]

Great review! I've never tried or read up on it, but how does playing solo handle the hidden objectives? Do you feel you lose a little of the enjoyment since there is no competition for coins/treasure chests or is that a feature you're happy to be without?

[@scotv5846]

Hi Liz! This style of game instruction is not new. It has been used in many games for well over 40 years. Avalon Hill used it for many of their games and gave the style of ruleset a name. They called "Programmed Instruction." Avalon Hill carried the Programmed Instruction over to expansions as well. For example, Squad Leader used Programmed Instruction as did it's expansions (gamettes as they were called) Cross of Iron, Crescendo of Doom, and GI Anvil of Victory.

[@juliesquirrel5269]

I came here to say this about AH Tobruk, but you beat me to it...

[@MarkWilliamson-kc6lh]

Legends of Andor has an element of this as well

[@watcherfox9698]

While this doesn't diminish the questions of what other games could do with this, I would like to point out that this is not the first game to use a book instead of tiles. Plaid Hat has done this with a few of their games, for example. Tutorials that spread over multiple games does not typically work well for me for games with 3 or more. I don't typically get to play the same group of people very consistently. Also, I like variety a lot, so what limited time I have 3 or more players available, I'm going to want to play a mix of different games. It works fine for me with solo or 2-player though.

[@suzirondot5097]

Yeah. Vision issues. I thought I typed Liz, but now it says Los. Sigh.

[@jamielwylie]

I'm all for this gradual introduction to rules. I played Gloomhaven, then Mage Knight, then its cousin Star Trek Frontiers, then Jaws of the Lion. Gloomhaven "stuck" for me. But it took so many plays of MK and STF to understand everything I was already bored before I could have fun with them. I still think they are excellent games, but I now wonder if they had eased me into their systems like JotL would they still be on the table. Also, I hate beginner and advanced rulebooks. Hate them.

[@amysinger2201]

also.... Camping! This could be Travel Gloomhaven!

[@mathjoker]

Space Alert was published over a decade ago. This tutorial experience is nothing new. As you hinted, it works for something you are going to dedicate a lot of time to and where you don't intend to add new players. That's about it. It is a very, very small niche of the boardgaming world.

[@kevinbhieey9188]

Unfortunately, there are just some games that NEED this type of streamlining but it just wouldn't work. The game I most want to get a "Jaws" treatment is Zombicide, but that table hog isn't fitting in some book unless the characters and zombies become the size of the characters you shove in that car in Life. Still, this game and 7th Continent are both games that people probably thought could never get the "for everybody" treatment, so maybe these will encourage designers to think outside the big box. For example, a scenario book for Zombicide is obviously unrealistic, but what if the pages weren't bound together? Instead of a bunch of tiles that all look remarkably similar, how about some square pages, each featuring at least 4 smaller versions of these tiles that could then be arranged into a multitude of scenarios? How about standees for the zombies? Or - dare I say it - tokens that could be flipped in case one shot was not enough?