God's Foreknowledge and Man's Free Will

[@djBC10000]

wowow Thanks for explaining this. I really needed the answer, God bless you.

[@franklicary3407]

Thank you for correcting my preconceived wrong theology and explaining the Father better. ❤️

[@RedNudidity]

This is quite an interesting take on this. It's nice to see someone who is unbiased every now and then.

[@kavitadeva]

This was a very very important message for me. I am getting sick and tired of my fellow Christians saying not only did God allow me to become quadriplegic he made me become quadriplegic. Why? Because God is in control of everything he is the one that makes everything happen he knows all of our thoughts every hair on our head what we're going to do now and in the future. I can't really live with a god like that Anymore. so thank you so much for bringing this to light. I'm going to listen to your longer version I really enjoyed the way you explain this it's not like I haven't heard it before but you really explained it clearly and it was cohesive. People will say well God ordained that the World Trade Centers would go down that was in his master plan and some good will come out of it they say. Again I'm sick and tired of that

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

@1Shawndra You're exactly right. What would be the point? And without complete freedom of will, what would 1 Cor. 5:10 mean - "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, ACCORDING TO WHAT HE HAS DONE, whether it be good or bad"? That's why this teaching is so important!

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

So, I think this is a good place to end our discussion since it's apparent you have your mind set in a certain direction. It's been nice talking to you. God bless.

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

@WCOFTheology Please don't mistake my lack of desire for continuing our chat as an inability to argue the topic. My time is valuable, and I'm able to recognize the futility of further debate when we can't agree on the definitions of three, simple words. It may comfort you, however, to consider that, if this video is leading people astray, as you claim, then, according to your theology, God determined it so, and surely we wouldn't want to go against His will, now would we? :)

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

@1Shawndra Yep, craziness. Thank you for you comments, Shawndra! :)

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

@WCOFTheology I'm so glad I've amused you. I'm an engineer by trade. Since you brought up mathematics, let's talk. As challenging as mathematics are at times, 2 + 2 = 4 ... EVERY TIME! That's the simplicity I speak of. Mathematics are RATIONAL. They're reliably NON-CONTRADICTORY. Your theology, however, is not if it's your intention to demonstrate how a man can have volition choice without freedom of will. You need to abandon common usage to do this, and words cease to have meaning.

[@gsacni]

@justtruthit Thank you. Was good debating you. All said and done, be mindful of Luke 1:37. Keep well. :-)

[@gsacni]

@justtruthit My apologies then. I, and the others commenting here, were under the impression we were speaking with the twit in the video. Short answers: 1) Yes, God made EVERYTHING, including all information, all concepts, and including Satan. 2) Yes, I believe in free will. My point was that the omniscient God knows what man is going to do with that free will. Hence the term "elected" before the foundation of the earth. God knew which future souls would accept Him and which not.

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

I'm not clear at all why your friends would cite these verses. Read them. They don't support any view on predetermination. Romans 9:15-16 "For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy." Consider what is being addressed here. Paul is explaining that being a child of Israel in and of itself carries no inherent benefit, to the chagrin of the Jew.

[@dellahendrickson3353]

Just Truth It I believe that that worse is not about salvation but about what happens here on this earth in this life. God can do whatever he wants and sometimes He chooses people to do His will here on this earth for His own purpose and reason. When He does that, His grace is irresistible. This doesn’t mean that He elects who will be saved and who will not. Throughout the entire Bible it tells us to turn to God, to turn away from our wickedness and to repent. Why would it be telling us that if we didn’t have free will? God know the future but that doesn’t mean the lack of free will for us. This foreknowledge is mind boggling for us and causes confusion. It looks to me that calvinists do not read Bible in context.

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

So, the progression is as follows: a) The demonstration of God's glory & witness and yet mankind's rejection of both & his inclination towards idolatry - Rom. 1:18-32; b) God's righteous and UNBIASED standard of judgment for mankind - Rom. 2:1-16; c) Man's inability to live up to that standard - Rom. 2:17-3:20; d) The need for God's mercy through Jesus Christ - Rom - 3:21-31. Central to God's judgment is the standard of Romans 2:11 -For there is no respect of persons with God." It's essential!

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

Thank you for your encouragement and your kind words, @LightOne61. They are a blessing!

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

Romans 8:21-23 "That the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies."

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

Now, you seem like a respectful person, and I appreciate that, so I will simply tell you honestly I could NEVER submit to what you claim about God simply because it defies Scripture and reason. I could not love nor could I respect a God who was so heartless. As with any relationship, God is knowable by His actions, for which He's clearly responsive, reciprocal and faithful. He desires to be known and loved by his children. The great evil of theology is that it renders Him UNKNOWABLE.

[@TheJonathanmt]

Rom 8:21-30 Would you mind explaining these verses that some Calvinist friends say Rom 9:15-16 support Predestination? Rom 9:21 Rom 9:11-13

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

I'm not sure what you're asking. But consider 2 Timothy 2:24-26 - "The servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose them; IF God peradventure will give them repentance to the ACKNOWLEDGING OF THE TRUTH; And that THEY MAY RECOVER THEMSELVES OUT OF THE SNARE OF THE DEVIL, WHO ARE TAKEN CAPTIVE BY HIM AT HIS WILL." God can give a person understanding of the truth, but they must walk into deliverance.

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

"And do you think, whoever you are, when you judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself, that you will escape God's judgment? Or do you have contempt for the wealth of his kindness, forbearance, and patience, and yet do not know that God's kindness leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath for yourselves in the day of wrath, when God's righteous judgment is revealed!" ...

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

Hebrews 2:7-9 "You made him a little lower than the angels; you crowned him with glory and honor and put everything under his feet." In putting everything under him, God left nothing that is not subject to him. YET AT PRESENT WE DO NOT SEE EVERYTHING SUBJECT TO HIM. But we see JESUS ..." At present everything IS NOT SUBJECT to Jesus or to God, which means that God is not sovereign. But His plan for salvation to ALL who believe is sure and steadfast, and Christ shall win the Battle.

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

" HE WILL REWARD EACH ONE ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS: eternal life to those who by perseverance in good works seek glory and honor and immortality, but wrath and anger to those who live in selfish ambition and DO NOT OBEY the truth BUT OBEY unrighteousness. There will be affliction and distress on everyone who does evil, on the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, for the Jew first and also the Greek. FOR THERE IS NO PARTIALITY WITH GOD."

[@adrianmcmullan3295]

Wonderful, thank you!

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

Thank you so much for sharing Adrian McMullan ! :) *****

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

These died because we live in a fallen world where "... men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil." Ps 78:41 says concerning the waywardness of Israel, " Yea, they turned back and tempted God, AND LIMITED THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL." God is limited by the choices of man. Deut. 30:19 says, "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I HAVE SET BEFORE YOU LIFE AND DEATH, BLESSING AND CURSING; THEREFORE CHOOSE LIFE, that both thou and thy seed may live."

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

Romans 9:21 "Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use?" This verse harkens back to Jer. 18, and confirms that God has the ability and privilege to take the "inheritance rights" of the Jews away from them and give them to another. Who is these other? THE BELIEVING GENTILE.

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

Understood, and agreed. I appreciate the wisdom!

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

I'm glad it was a blessing to you. God bless you.

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

... In whom THE GOD OF THIS WORLD hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. And this: Ephesians 6:12-13 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. ...

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

@gsacni, Au contraire, my friend. I am not splitting hairs. I'm a) showing you that you are incorrect when you say that one should NEVER use the term "God can't" when the Bible obviously does, as well as b) establishing with you that God won't act contrary to his nature or his will. This is foundational to the discussion. I was also encouraging you not to be so disagreeable when discussing the subject.

[@TheJonathanmt]

I needed this! I have been struggling with Calvinist's recently. Thanks for this!

[@delroymarshall5134]

Do Not Boast About Tomorrow 13 Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will[g] go to such and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a profit”; 14 whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away. 15 Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that.” 16 But now you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil. 17 Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.

[@hiddenwisdom-kk8qr]

I love this

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

@gsacni, First, I didn't make the comment about "God needs" that you responded to ... @alphaomegastables did, and I was responding to your post. I inadvertently deleted it while writing the above. Secondly, as I said in the post immediately following this one, Heb. 6:18 says that God CAN'T lie. To do so would be inconsistent with His nature. So, it's God's Word that says God CAN'T (actually, it says IMPOSSIBLE).

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

God's thoughts are infinitely greater than ours - for this there is no dispute. But God is light, goodness, justice, mercy, grace, love, and SO MUST HIS WILL BE. For a doctrine then that, when all is said and done, attributes to Him qualities that are in conflict with these is to call God arbitrary. He loses all consistency; as I said before, and He becomes unknowable, since you cannot have a relationship with an enigma.

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

Respectfully, I have no idea what this sentence says - "So if he's fixed and can only do good because he can only do good then that excludes god as being good and excludes his free will."

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

@WCOFTheology Is God a loving and just God, or is he capricious, arbitrary and inherently unjust? Anyway, I meant this rhetorically and mention it as a parting consideration. As I said in another post below, since there doesn't seem to be any reconciliation of our views in sight, we should probably agree to disagree.

[@WCOFTheology]

@justtruthit Choose CHOOSE, v.t. 1. To pick out; to select; to take by way of preference from two or more things offered; to make choice of. The man the Lord doth choose shall be holy. Num 16. 2. To take in preference. Let us choose to us judgment. Job 34. Websters 1828 dictionary Where is free will in that?

[@WCOFTheology]

@justtruthit Just b/c a man is free to choose which shirt he prefers or the thing that he desires at the moment of choice, which you have demonstrated in your shirt choice, does not mean man is free from God's determinism. In fact it can be proven that a man MUST choose what he most desires at the moment of choice or there will be no choice at all. Therefore man is bound(at least by his own desires) and not free, and how do you know that behind it all there is not God

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

"God can never be in a learning mode looking at everything since time began and trying to understand." Those are your words, not mine. I've never claimed that God does not have foreknowledge - just that God doesn't predetermine EVERYTHING. Now, consider Romans 8:29. "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate ..." So, is this to also read, For those He DID NOT KNOW, those He did not predestine? This verse doesn't really support your view if God is supposed to foreknow EVERYONE, does it?

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

@gsacni, rather than starting with a conclusion - in this case, that God is all-knowing - and then back-filling our argument, a method VERY susceptible to the corrupting traditions of men, we should instead start our inquiry with an assumption and see if our assumption fits. When assuming that God is all-knowing, in many verses we find He's not as I indicated earlier. So we seek God's guidance and reconsider our assumptions. Since God can't lie, God can't contradict Himself either.

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

God loves and calls humanity to salvation, since He would have ALL men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. We responded, while others chose not to. When we did, we became His children. It's that simple.

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

@Bill244888 Rom. 7:21-25 shows the frustration of the law: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then WITH THE MIND I MYSELF SERVE the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." It's all about CHOICE. If a person doesn't choose, the choice then has been made for him in the sinful imperatives of his fallen nature. That's why we are exhorted to forsake our flesh and becomes servants of righteousness.

[@aceduice38]

I believe that's one of the main reasons why we are not completely perfect. its a battle that begins in our minds.remember satan has the power to deceive but God beholds a greater power, and satan must always obey his father.but it will always be our individual decision. Thanks for the video and for expressing your opinion as have.. God Bless

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

Glad to help, Jonathan.

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

@gsacni Now, let me ask you, how would YOU explain the many Bible verses that show God changing his mind, or God regretting past actions due to current circumstances, or God discovering new information that causes him to alter future events, as He did in the example given in the teaching? Look at Genesis 6:6, 1 Samuel 15:11, Isaiah 38:1-5, to name a few of the many similar throughout the OT. When handled honestly, these verses present some sticky theological issues, wouldn't you say?

[@WCOFTheology]

@justtruthit Volition VOLI'TION, n. [L. volitio, from volo, to will. See Will.] 1. The act of willing the act of determining choice, or forming a purpose. There is a great difference between actual volition, and approbation of judgment. Volition is the actual exercise of the power which the mind has of considering or forbearing to consider an idea. 2. The power of willing or determining. Websters 1828 dictionary Where is free will in this definition?

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

@Bill244888 I did not say, "unfettered 'free will". As I indicated earlier, Satan usurps man's freedom of will regularly. We are saddled with a fallen nature, and we live in a fallen world. The purpose of the law is to convict; it has no power to redeem. Romans 7:14 says, 'For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.' Man is flawed by original sin and, as such, is unable to fulfill the law. That's why we need a savior.

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

If you are referring to Rom 9:15, 18, I don't see it that way. Hebrews 3:13 says "But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin." A person is hardened through disobedience and unbelief. This is attributed to God strictly in the sense that Rom 9 is argued - to wit, that God is the one who set the standard of faith, about which both the chapter and the book speak - for those to believe, mercy; for those who don't, hardness.

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

Choice is always free-will, by definition. Choose life, Vicky

[@texantony2410]

No it's not. Choice (Noun)/ One selection or preference; that which is chosen or decided; the outcome of a decision. Choice is not free will.

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

No, what I'm "technically" saying is that God doesn't compel our love, since love CANNOT be compelled - it's freely given. Now, other than wrangling over theological oddities, was there something else?

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

I would agree if popular acceptance is God's criteria for success. Throughout the Word, however, there has always been only a remnant that have accepted the call. Matthew 7:13-14 "... for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

Deuteronomy 30:19-20 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest LOVE the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest OBEY his voice, and that thou mayest CLEAVE unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

When a person walks away from God, they are enslaved. As John 12:40 says, "He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not SEE WITH THEIR EYES, NOR UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED, and I should heal them." God can open a person's eyes and give them understanding, but only they can walk in deliverance. But I still don't understand what a "perfect environment", as you say, has to do with being the only ones to live as Jesus told us.

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

@Bill244888 Bill, you keep moving back and forth between your original supposition that 1) the whole notion of freewill is flawed, and then 2) there's no freewill specifically regarding salvation. As I said, if God BECKONS, there must be freewill. Will you concede this?

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

I've already answered this. God called the CHURCH from the foundation of the world - not the individual.

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. FOR GOD SHOWS NO PARTIALITY." God doesn't save one group and damn another. Those who OBEY are blessed and those who don't aren't. NO PARTIALITY!

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

Thanks, but I'm good. God, His Word and the holy spirit are ample to guide and instruct. Take care, Tim. God bless!

[@SpeakingtheTruthInLove]

Well, brother, it is probably a vain exercise to try and convey what I am saying in short retorts on youtube. The standard belief's about what happened in the Garden of Eden are too deeply held to even attempt an alternate explanation and I feel it is too important to bander about. So, I'll just let it go for now. Perhaps, there might be a better forum to discuss these things.

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

@Bill244888, OK. Not sure of your point. Ez.l 36:22-38 is addressed to a PEOPLE, not a PERSON. You'll note this in Verse 22, where it says "O House of Israel". God is dealing GENERALLY with his people. God is MY God, MY Father. He loves me and I love Him. Is. 1:18 says that He "reasons" with me to think His thoughts. Rom. 12:1 says He "beseeches" me to carry out His will. Why would He bother if there's no such thing as freewill? A RECIPROCAL relationship that, without freewill, is impossible.

[@SpeakingtheTruthInLove]

The free will of Adam and his wife is subject to certain forces God put in their lives. First, what the man was made of was God's choice not man's. Secondly, God allowed the woman to be tempted by an adversary that the woman could not possibly outwit. God knew the outcome, because he determined the outcome by setting the scene. "The creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who subjected the same in hope."

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

@Bill244888, that's right. It's is not in man. That's why we are EXHORTED not to lean to the own understanding, but in all our ways WE are to acknowledge him, and He promises to direct our paths. This is freewill. Why exhort, if we can be forced to do it?

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

In other words, if you obey God and seek His goodness, you'll be blessed; if not, you'll suffer the consequences. You see, Vicky, God's judgment is entirely reliant upon man's free-will obedience or disobedience. If this is not true, then God's judgment is arbitrary. And there is no partiality, meaning that God will judge EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS ... not according to some predestined mandate. To say that God pardons some but not others is to say God is PARTIAL. He's not.

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

So, within God's over-arching plan, which is prophesied in scripture and will be brought to pass, God has made allowance for freewill in mankind. And because of this, when a person tells God from the heart that he loves Him, it is what it is - LOVE. This love hasn't been compelled by some foreordained, immutable mandate. It's the simple, FREE EXPRESSION of the love of a child for his father. No more, no less. The God of Eternity accommodates His beloved child's heart. That's my God!

[@WCOFTheology]

@justtruthit You said truth is simple, I demonstrated that it is not always simple, and certainly not all truths of the Bible are simple. Ability does not presuppose free will, nor does it show where the ability came from. I said those examples are silent about where man gets the ability or if he has free will, I did not say the Bible is silent. We learn from other Scripture that it is God that causes the choice and not free will.

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

Romans 5:12 " Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." BTW, a better translation is the ESV - For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God."

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

@Bill244888 I just reread your post. You spoke of "... spiritually dead people choosing which false god they will serve". Really? This quote is Joshua (Josh 24:15) calling upon Israel to make a choice between the TRUE GOD - the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - AND a false God. I don't understand your quote. Do you really believe Joshua was offering Israel a choice between "which false god they will serve?" Say it ain't so. Otherwise, you and I differ more than I thought.

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

@Bill244888 One more thing. The Scripture is to be considered and weighed. Psalm 1:2 says of the "Blessed Man" that "in his [God's] law doth he MEDITATE day and night." From meditation comes understanding. Things SHOULD make sense, and when they don't, one SHOULD ask why."Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding." So, to say there's no free-will when so much of God's relationship with man is reliant on it simply doesn't make sense.

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

Well, if He's sovereign, if He by definition rules ALONE and ONLY His purposes come to pass, then why is there a kingdom of Satan that obstructs the purposes of God? Why is the believer told to STAND AGAINST the wiles of the evil one; to resist the devil and He will flee and to humble himself to God, if God is sovereign? Apparently He doesn't rule alone. The truth is, God is NOT sovereign, but He will be when the rule of Satan is put down.

[@rush75335]

And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

That's a very good surmising, Jonathan. I think you're right.

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

The following is an exhortation. These ONLY work when there's freedom of will to respond. Matthew 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be THAT FIND IT.

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

Hebrews 3:8, 15 and 4:7, where Israel hardened their heart to the holy spirit. You see, the holy spirit makes it POSSIBLE for us to believe, but on that same token DOES NOT make it IMPOSSIBLE NOT to be believe. God extends his gracious hand to us, but the choice to accept it is always man's. Again, to say otherwise is to set aside most of the Word of God.

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

Jonathan, consider one more thing. Why would God call us, beckon us, command us, beseech us if we did not have the FREE WILL to respond? How could a righteous God hold a person responsible for his sin if that person had no free will to choose to do otherwise? THAT'S arbitrary! Romans 2:6-11 shows God's judgment - "He will render TO EACH ONE ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS; to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; ...

[@gsacni]

@bruisedreed2007 God will never override man's free will and "force" him to accept God. Grace and mercy is offered to all, but some (most) throws it back in God's face. Everyone deserves hell and no one is good, but God sees the willingness of the heart to overcome sin and repent, and only then will grace save them. God knows who repents by heart and who not. He knew who would before the foundation of the earth.

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

I've read over your comment but I don't understand your last sentence. Can you clarify?

[@warren52nz]

@warren52nz OK so I was wrong about comments being screened. That's encouraging. How about this for an answer to why things don't seem to make sense if God is omniscient.... God doesn't EXIST. So bad things happen because bad people make them happen and good things happen because good people make them happen. If you look at it that way, everything suddenly makes sense. All the torture and death from 2,000 years ago happened because it's all up to us and no one is divinely intervening.

[@WCOFTheology]

@justtruthit Yes, God calls, man answers, but that tell us nothing about what is going on behind the scenes it is you that read free will into it. God calls means God calls, man answers means man answers, this statement is silent whether or not man has the ability to answer, showing an example where a man does answer God's call does not prove he was free to do so. You can find many examples in the Bible where man answered God's call but none prove they were free to do so.

[@warren52nz]

I've no idea why I was pointed to this video since I'm quite obviously an Atheist. However here's what I'd say about the concept of free will and omniscience (although I'm certain comments get screened since ratings are disabled and this is a Christian video). Free Will and Omniscience are incompatible. How can you have free will if God knows what's going to happen? It defies logic. I won't type anymore, I'm pretty sure this won't pass the "judgement" of the author and get posted.

[@humblefaith1442]

God knows everything, including how we will use our free will. It's really not that complicated.

[@IWantToMature85]

Humble Faith that's exactly what I think

[@CBALLEN]

No dead in sin person can love God,He must first change their wills by bringing them to life first and 100% of those brought to spiritual life will believe.

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

Didn't you advise earlier that we should forego this discussion? Not sure why you've taken it up again. Anyway, if your theology, whatever it is, leads to you to conclusions about the nature of God that contradict those I stated above; i.e., his goodness, love, and righteousness; regardless of their untraditionality, I'm commanded by scripture to discard them. Satan rules this age, but his destruction was sealed when Christ was raised and give a name above all names! That's truth, my friend.

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

1 John 4:19 says, "We love him, because he first loved us." To say that God has mandated everything is to make love, its requirements and responses, a bad joke. To say that God loves one group and seeks their eternal fellowship but arbitrarily casts off another into eternal torment is to violate the most fundamental tenet of His judgment - "For there is no respect of persons with God" - Romans 2:11. God loves us all, but far too few respond to His call, and this no doubt breaks His heart.

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

One more thought, if I may. You said that we have "the perception of freewill." Apparently this perception comes from God himself from the countless scriptures that speak of obedience and faith. But if God Himself is perpetuating this myth of freewill, that would make him misleading. God has foreknowledge. He FOREKNOWS that you will obey. That's a far-cry from God FORCING obedience. God will judge us on our obedience or lack thereof, which would be a silly exercise without freewill.

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

God would not spend the abundance of ink in scripture to beckon us, counsel us, reprove us, command us or exhort us if we weren't call upon to RESPOND to his efforts. God has foreknowledge and God has a plan. But God also loves us and seeks our love in return. As such, God has imbued his creatures with freewill, since He in His infinite wisdom knows that NO ONE CAN RETURN LOVE WITHOUT IT. Freewill is a mandatory requirement of love, for without freewill there's no love.

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

Why does Christ add any of us to his church when he knows we ALL will fail him at some point - to greater or lesser extents? Because EACH person has a choice - a choice to obey God's Word or a choice to disobey. And Romans 2:7-8 and Romans 14:12 show that all men will be judged by their choice. Judas chose poorly and will be judged accordingly. If Judas had no choice and was somehow fulfilling some preordained path, there would be no basis for judgment since he wouldn't be responsible.

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

"... as it is written, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and WHOEVER BELIEVE IN HIM WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME." THIS is the context of the verse. Israel, convinced in its own heritage, is indignant at God's law of faith, the accusation of God being that HE WAS ARBITRARY. God in response is saying, "Hey, it's my prerogative to show mercy to whom I will, and this choice is and always has been based on one thing and one thing alone - FAITH.

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

@Bill244888 But, Bill, you still haven't responded to my points about God "reasoning" with us or "beseeching" us, nor any of the other verses I've addressed (John 3:16, 1 Tim. 2:4, Rev. 22:17, Rev. 3:20 and Rom. 10:13). I've responded to you. Would you do the same for me? Thank you.

[@ppger44]

How do you explain alcoholics and drug addicts that have lived in adverse circumstances that desperately have prayed for years to be rid of the turmoil in they're lives and can't stop? Wouldn't it be true to say that only the people who grew up in a perfect environment as kids are the only ones that can live as Jesus told us to?

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

Consider this. "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, CHOOSE you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, WE WILL SERVE THE LORD." Bill, we are the ones who choose whom we will serve - God or Satan. We choose to sin, just as we choose to obey. Again, to say there's no freewill makes no sense, Bill.

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

@TalkPwnTV, we can do this all day.

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

@gsacni, apology accepted. However, that "twit" is one of the finer men I know, so again, you're being insulting. Remember, quick to hear, SLOW to speak, SLOW to wrath (or insult). I too held your view for 28 years and did so because of its merit. However, there are Bible accounts where a this view is contradictory. It simply is. So, studying the scripture is an inquiry. Keep in mind, @gsacni, that just because someone differs with you doesn't make them evil ... or a "twit". God bless you.

[@WCOFTheology]

@justtruthit Why must there be free will if God beckons? Cannot God's beckoning be the means by which God works out His decree?

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

So, you're saying that, if God relies on the freewill acceptance of salvation, as some say, then God must be a big failure since so many choose not to be saved. Did I get that right?

[@johnellis7614]

Since the beginning of civilization, the more intelligent upper-half of society has hoarded all the land, wealth and political power. For they have the desire, ability and freedom to do it, and that is why they do it. And so, do they have the freewill to do it? No, because it is sin and unless they repent, it will cost then eternal life. For in order to have the freewill to do something, you need four qualities: (1) Desire (2) Ability (3) Freedom (4) Moral right

[@gsacni]

@justtruthit You have not been insulted at all, but it's not difficult to spot someone who only conditionally believes in God and His unlimited abilities. Still waiting for a clear "yes" or "no" answer from you: Do you believe God is omniscient? Just "yes" or "no", please. No "buts"...

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

@gsacni, So, yes, God has the ABILITY to create human automatons to do His will, but to be consistent with this thing called free-will, He needs free agents, "willing believers", to do step up. When a person is FORCED, there's no free-will. Hope that clarifies. One more thing. As an encouragement, while we may disagree,we all should work on not to being disagreeable. There are better ways to make your point. :)

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

Hello, @WCOFTheology. To answer your question: No, I don't understand this, and doubtful I ever will - not if the words 'volition', 'choice' and "freewill' retain common and obvious meaning. Only through the sophistry called theology can this be done. Now, judging from your name, you're ready to launch into an explanation why this is so, but first consider this. TRUTH is simple. ERROR is complicated. Error is why Christian theology is so notoriously confusing, irrational and contradictory.

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

ElectedWatcher, I would recommend putting the theologians aside for the time being and just reading the scripture. I think you'll find that the theologians will grow strangely dim in the light of his glory and grace.

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

@Bill244888 John 3:16 says that "WHOSOEVER believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life." This verse is all about choice. If God "would have ALL MEN to be saved ...", He wouldn't then turn around and consign the majority of those same men to eternal damnation and then claim to be a just God. You said, "It's insane." Well, Bill, that argument to me is insane. It makes God capricious, arbitrary and inherently unjust. That's just not the God of the Bible, nor the one I worship.

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

@Bill244888. Ez. 36 addresses the same event as Jeremiah 31:31-34. God is telling Israel of a new PROGRAM he intends to implement with them, a New Covenant. It is a change in how God intends to relate to His people. God's talking to people of an Old Covenant, which is past, about a New Covenant, which is yet to come. Again I'm not at all clear on what bearing this has on our discussion about "freewill" and "choice", nor how my response relates to Romans 9.

[@TheLivingTruthFellowship]

Romans 9:30-33 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, A RIGHTEOUSNESS THAT IS BY FAITH; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? BECAUSE THEY DID NOT PURSUE IT BY FAITH, BUT AS IT WERE BASED ON WORKS. THEY STUMBLED OVER THE STUMBLING STONE, ..."