Good in Theory, Bad in Practice - A brief history of Ortholinear Keyboards

[@Psoewish]

Interesting, I swapped to an ortholinear design about a year ago (the Planck, specifically) and it actually completely resolved the hand pain I used to have when typing a lot. Now I did also pair the switch with going with Colemak-DH though, so I don't know for sure which aspect actually did the heavy lifting there, or maybe it was just a combination! I do find it fascinating how wildly the experiences can differ though. When I first got my keyboard it took me just a few days to adjust and it felt better to use right away. However when I tried showing a family member she just absolutely hated it and said it was too confusing and just could not get used to it at all. So really the moral of the story is: there is no universal layout. You should go with something that makes sense for your specific usecase and preferences. Kind of like with literally anything else. I'm glad we have all these cool options so that people can actually experiment and find things that suit them better than what the norm is. :)

[@val0rance]

Yeah, that's absolutely true. Some keyboards just work for some, and some don't.

[@GreatWalker]

Hehe, excuse my rudeness, the moral I got from that story is that if people are forced to get used to a bad thing, most people will keep doing a bad thing unconsciously. If she willingly used it for a couple of days too, maybe your experiences would more similar.

[@val0rance]

@@GreatWalker No worries, I probably could've been a bit more clear. The things I mentioned in the video were my personal experience and that will vary from person to person!

[@GreatWalker]

@@val0rance oh, I was replying to @Psoewish ‘s story

[@trashviewer3521]

Can you be more specific with which hand caused you pain and what was you hand orientation before & after swtiching to plank.

[@jimiwills]

I've never got on with staggered keyboards. Got a Planck in 2021 and immediately loved it. I use it daily for full time software development.

[@cybotek]

Cool vid. One NOTE though: The (theoretical) additional stress on the wrists experienced by some people when typing on 40% ortholinear keyboards: 1. can be entirely mitigated by having a split ortholinear, or even vertically-staggered split ortholinear keyboard such as the Moonlander (i.e. this way hands and wrists can be adjusted to any angle desired), [EDIT: OK, I see you did mention this at the end - thanks]. 2. has more to do with the DISTANCE of the keyboard in my (extensive) experience, i.e. if ANY keyboard is too close to you (which is common), then the wrists have to bend in order to be able to type on them. This can be easily remedied by simply moving the keyboard further away from you, so that your arms and wrists are straighter, or moving your chair further away from you (possibly tiny) desk. Hope this helps anyone considering the "cons" of this keyboard. Ortholinear is definitely worth a try - despite not being easily obtainable in many countries (and the price).

[@val0rance]

The distance is certainly something I didn't consider. Good point there! The split part is very true. Those keyboards are known as "colstag" or column staggered keyboards and I've been using one for the longest time (there are also split othrolinears, but at that point why not just go colstag). Another variation are keywell/dactyl/manuform keyboards which feature key depth. I will be making a new video including those shortly. The reason I made this video was because at the time, othrolinear keyboards were indirectly marketed as a cheaper entrance into ergonomic styled boards and in my opinion, they just did not compare to split and other styles. The most popular from what I remember being Drop OLKB and related boards; which were not split, and within the price realm of Chocofi (colstag) and other boards. Just want to clarify to folks: Othrolinear does not mean ergonomic; it is a subcategory Split keyboards are split keyboards; they can, and also can be not othrolinear

[@cybotek]

@@val0rance Ah right. Likewise, excellent explanation. And thanks for pointing out the differences. Can't wait for the next one. Keep 'em coming. Subbed.👍🏻

[@lytsuei]

The points of ortholinear are not only finger movement, but more importantly the left wrist bending so tiny keyboards regardless if it is orthrolinear is already bad, but ID75 with alphabets distributed on the sides and TypeMatrix almost have no wrist bending issue.

[@RenbroNL]

A split ortholinear keyboard is still an ortholinear keyboard. It's frustrating that you kept that until the end of the very end of the video where you even debunked most of this video yourself.

[@val0rance]

I'm pretty sure I explained very clearly in the beginning I don't consider a split ortho board a strictly "othrolinear keyboard". All split keyboards regardless of layout* I consider as a part of "split styled"* keyboards. Edit: I meant split as a category, not as one specific type of keyboard. They were created to solve the very problem created from "orthro bricks", so they don't have a place in this video.

[@guinea_horn]

​@@val0ranceyou're so right, two things can't be true at the same time /s

[@sorvex9]

@@val0ranceguess you are dumb then, too bad.

[@MaximilianBerkmann]

​@va1orance You say that but not all split keyboards are equal, some are ortholinear, some are column-staggered (like the ErgoDox EZ) and others are curved downwards (like the Glove80).

[@val0rance]

​ @MaximilianBerkmann Yes, however, they don't have the problems I mentioned specifically because they are split. To clarify, I am talking strictly about single PCB keyboards (well, even then, they have split designs like the Atreus). The main point is they don't have a place in this video. I would consider them solutions to the problem created by "orthro bricks" themselves. Also, yes, I am aware there are: - Orthrolinear split - Manuform/Dactyl split (hopefully getting one soon :D) - Staggered split - Column staggered split (+1) - some other wacky ones I'd love to test them to see if they actually do anything, but they're all so expensive :d. One last note, to clarify any confusion, I meant split as a "subcategory" of ergo boards. I did word it rather poorly. Keyboards > Ergo Keyboards > Split keyboards > all the varients

[@GreatWalker]

7:34 If you rotate your wrist towards a more neutral position, your fingers will no longer go in the direction of the wrist and instead go forward in the horizontal plane.

[@BlaineRush-b8h]

There’s a big error made in this video. He claims that using a wider keyboard reduces the angle of your wrists. That makes zero sense because the home keys aren’t any further away regardless of how many extra keys are on the outsides. Of course regular keyboard have the exact same problem. Using split ortholinear solves that problem completely while retaining the benefit of no weird staggering. Plus split would look bad on a staggered setup with the staggered edges.

[@val0rance]

The keys go in the middle :). For example, the XD75 keyboard is often displayed with a number pad setup in the middle. Three keys to separate letters, one key to separate edges.

[@zipsnap]

Man, you wouldn't believe the stupid smirk on my face discovering this video RIGHT AFTER I just tabbed out of finishing a jstris match using my Ortholinear keyboard omg lmao

[@val0rance]

Lol, it works great as a gamepad.

[@NJ-wb1cz]

Some people do prefer tiny ortholinears though, even coming back to them after using split keyboards

[@kj3d812]

3:11 scrolls continuously up, down, up, down, up, down for 39 seconds. Viewer promptly gets motion sickness.

[@val0rance]

My bad, been rendering in 60 fps since this 😅

[@SteelRatVT]

I want it for shooters: WASD to move, the keys around WASD for skills, mouse in use, the right side of keyboard is barely touched. The same applies to Diablo 4 and so many games. Would love a follow-up video with that use case!

[@val0rance]

That's a fair point and othro-styled gamepads are popular! In my opinion though, I would rather just buy a macro pad or one-handed keyboard (both of which are often cheaper).

[@SteelRatVT]

@@val0rance I didn't know those existed, will use those words as search terms.

[@majokko1905]

hey! im a gamer who does mmorpgs / fps etc and also a big ortholinear keyboard enjoyer, i highly recommend switching to ESDF, this has opened up so much space for keybinding around my movement keys

[@zarkonesmall]

I'm equally confused about monoblock ortholinears and staggered splits

[@senritsujumpsuit6021]

Keyboards like the Dygma Defy shows how nice Ortholinear is a tilt-able split keyboard with 16 keys for your thumbs to avoid using your pinky

[@kevofnc]

your problem is not the ortholinear but that you still have too many keys. I currently use a "ferris sweep" as my daily driver (34 keys) and my fingers don't need to move around. Open your mind to the amazing world of layers and all your problems will disappear

[@val0rance]

My problem with orthrolinear is not the key count, but the shape of the board. The ferris sweep is a split column stagger keyboard. I currently use a split column stagger keyboard.

[@humerous2funny937]

Recently switched to a plank style (12 x 4 matrix) keyboard and solved wrist angle issues by using a layout that is "pushed apart" so my hands rest as far apart as poosible (I do not use qwerty, but if i did there would be a 2 key gap between t and y, a 2 key gap between g and h, etc). An added benefit is that there is an extra key available to each of my thumbs. I can fit the missing keys onto these thumb keys and other layers that are already necessary with a 40% so I don't find it a hassle to use and also takes a fair amount of work of my pinkies (i.e. no having to stretch for tab, shift, backspace and enter) . tbf, might decide I hate it and change again in a couple months, who knows.

[@reillocb]

I mean, there's split stagger, split ortho and split columnar stagger.... You lightly touched on them but i wish you had directly incorporated them as part of the history of keyboard ergonomics. It's not like split is just some mod, it's body type. Just like slab and boomerang are

[@val0rance]

True, I planned on making a full video comparing all of them, so that's why I didn't touch on them that much. Unfortunately, I didn't realize manuforms/dactyls were so expensive ;/.

[@_jdfx]

It's very subjective, personally I got a lot less hand pain using a Planck because of thle reduced finger movements. And I switched to a 42 keys split recently, even better. But I would never have switched directly from a full size staggered keyboard, the Planck really helped.

[@val0rance]

Yeah definitely, after using it for even longer, I've noticed there is a significant benefit in terms of finger movement distance. Plus it's often much cheaper than to fully switch to split right away.

[@dasc0yne]

I run an Idobao ID75 5x15 with two columns of function keys running down the middle to create space. It is very comfortable.

[@my_negative_world]

The ortho layout can be traced back way further with typewriters like the Rheinmetall-Borsig Ergonomic even making a marketing statement out of using it. And older still with the Adler No. 7 or the infamous Tolkiens Hammond No. 12 or even the Automatic typewriter from 1887. It was natural for early makers of typewriters to want to arrange the keys in an orderly manner. The only reason that staggered stuck was because the most popular typewriters of the 19th century were Remingtons who's makers chose to go about the problem key arrengment in a somewhat lazy way. Qwerty effect all the way.

[@infiniteoffset]

Great video, learned some history for sure. I'm using 40% ortho split because I need to access special characters often.

[@chonkusdonkus]

If you're going to make panning/scrolling shots at lower than 60fps, please make them slower, the jumping makes me nauseous

[@val0rance]

realized that way too late, my bad 😅

[@alpacamale2909]

How is it bad in practice? I got one and I hate the fact that now I hve a laptop and can't use it. 40 percent with one shot layers is vastly superior. You just don't know how to configure it.

[@val0rance]

If it works for you, then great! I personally was looking more towards the comfort side of the keyboard, it just simply doesn't quiet make sense in my book.

[@val0rance]

Also, since you seem to be a long time user of ortholinear, is there a reason you didn't go down a split keyboard (or similar) path?

[@alpacamale2909]

@@val0rance I like the size of the 40% and I don't like split keyboards. I've never had any wrist issues with my 40. I even fixed my wrist issues causing by using ctrl c an v so much by moving ctrl to where the escape key is in most keyboards.

[@newdev76]

​@@val0rance I have used the bm40 for a couple of years as my main keyboard, and now I am using the ferris sweep, with the bm40 I use a split layout as well and with this I solve the position of the wrists, although now I only use it as a gamepad.

[@wagfinpis]

To my mind the main interest with Ortholinear keyboards would be the "linear". The linear layout looks like it should be far more intuitive for developing touch-typing orientation. My brain doesn't like committing to the arbitrary staggered key layout. My fingers are always floating around with no confidence in knowing where the keys are.

[@val0rance]

I do agree with this, the staggered layout feels rather right hand biased.

[@dsego84]

Thank you for this, I fell for the hype a few years ago and got a 40% planck keyboard, this was just after learning how to touch type properly. And it just isn't that good, it's cramped and the linearity messed with my wrist position. The staggered layout accidentally really fits the right hand direction. I imagine that ortholinear is only useful if split, so both hands get an angled position.

[@rainonwires]

Showing the website by scrolling up and down is not a smart idea.

[@val0rance]

Rendered in 24fps, mistake I won't make again D:.

[@SurvivalistMedia]

I’m a big id 75 user, but I also have a corne.

[@timsusss]

I’m missing something about how intended/correct size… it just has more keys but the primary letter keys are in the same spots so I don’t see why comfort would be any different.

[@val0rance]

The idea is that when you type, to reach the the keys on the row above or below you need to extend or curl your fingers. Orthrolinear "claims" to be beneficial in this, but ends up in a way being slightly worse (in my opinion). Your hands tend to form a ^ shape while typing, and you can see that an othrolinear board is more like ||.

[@garolstipock]

listening to this vid and your continued question about the ortholinear layout, it strikes me that you should probably give the Keyboardio Atreus a try. Also a 40% keyboard but keys slightly angled and staggered column. Fantastic little keyboard.

[@val0rance]

The Atreus is a column staggered keyboard. Although, it does indeed fix the most major problem with othrolinear keyboards. That being said, I main an Iris Rev. series keyboard, so, essentially the same experience. Atreus is quite nice though.

[@Drunken_Hamster]

I love how it's impossible to read the webpages you're scrolling because of the excessively low framerate of this GD video.

[@val0rance]

Realized that shortly after I posted woops. I had everything rendered in 24 fps.

[@Drunken_Hamster]

@@val0rance Oh. Oof.

[@ninjafada]

nice video, both are bad, can you do it with split keyboard now please ?

[@jagdteaguer]

Currently daily-ing a pseudo split ortho, a Lumberjack to be precise, and while I love it I feel like I'm leaning more towards trying an alice style. Having to twist my wrists slightly while typing all day due to natural arm positioning I feel isn't good in the long run. Currently on the lookout for a columnar fan-split ortho alice board hahaha.

[@LewisCampbellTech]

Atreus62 might be worth looking at

[@alpacamale2909]

Ortholinear is superior to staggered because you can't have a calculator layer in staggered. Well, you can, but it sucks

[@val0rance]

Just curious, what makes it worse on staggered for you?

[@zynth_music]

@@val0rance for numpads or anything else like macro keyboards or something it's less ergonomic slightly if it's a staggered numpad since your fingers dont just have to go down anymore. they need to go down and to the left or right, which can be weird to locate keys if you use a numpad a lot or need to use it fast potentially.

[@alpacamale2909]

@@val0rance as I said, numpads are too far to the right and hitting keys diagonally is a pain. I much rather have a grid numpad that is in front of my hand

[@typoerror177]

Otholinear makes total sense on a split keyboard.

[@RubiKeys]

The base in ortho is ok but split keyboards even more ergo like the crone solve the wrist thing in fact to be more confortable to write, some others design ortho similar but sligthy staggered solve aswell the wrist problem like alice type leyboards in comparison with plank style, i have few of them, plank style is just cute and small brick, everything is 1u of distance in order to type, another models aswell like preonic also have the number row, so is easier also to play game with it. They are aesthetic in their way ortho you can literally have all the keyboard covered with 1u keys, in exchange with normal staggered where they are diferent sizes to cover the staggered displacement mostly in modifiers tho. Good video!

[@mikethebeginner]

Vertical stagger split keyboards are best for ergonomics, as you seem to admit as an afterthought at the very end of this video. But the major point I’d like to make is that vertically linear keyboards aren’t necessarily better to type on; they’re easier to LEARN on. That’s their biggest advantage. Most keyboard reviews are written by people who are already high-functioning typists in QWERTY on single-piece, conventionally arranged keyboards. That’s something that stands in the way of progress.

[@val0rance]

As a person who's learned four different alternative keyboard layouts (Colemak, Maks-Ex, Strand (Stronk thumb key varient), Stern (my own design)), that's an interesting theory. I've been using a split column staggered keyboard for about 4 years now. I think there is something to be said about learning. I remember when I first learned typing I struggled a lot with where the B and Y key due to their location. Orthrolinear does help with that. However, the problem is that companies advertise Orthrolinear keyboards as ergonomic (specifically the non-split varients)---which I find false. Although you have a good point, I see VERY few people buy an Orthrolinear keyboard because "they want to learn how to type".

[@lurkerinthetube]

You missed the Kinesis Advantage keyboard. Bigger than the Plank (probably an 85% keyboard) that has a split to address your issue of wrist angling, but each split is still (largely) ortholinear. A very nice keyboard, but not small enough for the gamers.

[@val0rance]

The Kinesis Advantage keyboard is a fine keyboard for sure, but it falls under the category of "Dactyl/Manuform/Sculpted". (I know, there's so many types now.) Also, at the end of the video, I do briefly show a picture, although it's true I didn't explicitly talk about it. I know this type of keyboard has gained some traction (especially a couple years ago), but unfortunately, since I don't have one I can't give any opinions on it. I'd love to try, but until then I probably won't talk about manuform keyboards.

[@ameserich]

QWE and ASD should not be staggered. Its a design that manufacturers need to fix, but Mechanical Keyboard nerds would say "iTs NoT sTaNdArD dOnT bUy" "you cant use your different keycaps" yadayadayada

[@BrightBlueJim]

Complete waste of time. Author has no idea what he's talking about.

[@sparktite]

And just like that out of nowhere?? Ergo...nomics(?) have sprung to life in the year 2024. Where did they come from? Nobody knows. But weve definitely not been battling ergonomics in an almost endless span of generations in a futile attempt to optimize our every way of living down to the tools we use and how we use them. Cmon man we need some engineering brains on these keebs already!! The Kinesis 100 is back in '92 waiting for us! Theres gonna be none left for the rest of us! My razer orbweavers been dead for a decade and i need my dang Iris split keyboard parts already!!!

[@viktorlernt6063]

Or just use an otholinear SPLIT keyboard.

[@trashviewer3521]

There is also a certain keyboard type called minila. Where letter rows staggered on 0.25u constantly. The most famous example of it is Microsoft natural ergonomic & Logitech ergonomic series. The only reason ortholinear is worse than standard typewriter, is because with hand at an angle the right hand is closely to vertical finger movements. But yeah. Overall ortholinear is a half measure that doesn't provide any value to anyone by existing. It's not measurably better that qwerty, but it sitll require relearning. And even if you then go from ortholinear to split ortholinear staggered, you'll still need to relearn & adapt. to The only way for matric or ortholinear staggered to show they ergonomic benefits is to be split for each hand, preferably with column stagger for a hand size. In the end. There really is no reason to bother with any custom layout if you don't want to go split. Stuff like Microsoft natural ergonomic is the minimal level of ergonomic changes to make a noticeable effect. Everything other is just plowing the 200year old corpse of typewriter.

[@val0rance]

Ooh, that's what it's called; I've only seen it referenced as "equal staggered" but yes, you're right; this is good to know, thank you. Yea, I'm actually in the process of making an "updated" version of this video which covers some more advanced ideas - alt layouts, different typing techniques, etc. Ergonomics in typing are quite interesting and I wish I had the opportunity to try some of those "bleeding edge" variants like charachorder and others.

[@trashviewer3521]

@@val0rance charachorder aren't actually a "bleeding edge" it's a a mix of datahand style input with some stenography features. Which makes it hard to adapt to with a questionable prospects for stuff like programming to boot. The incredible speed the characorder makers showcase is mostly done by using their stenography feature.

[@val0rance]

@@trashviewer3521 Hmm, I suppose that can be argued; in this context, my opinion is that compared to single-input ergonomic keyboards (like sculpted, colstag, and alice) it falls closer to bleeding edge - unless you also consider things like the Svalboard, not. I personally don't consider steno (traditional shaped) a "strictly ergonomic incentivized keyboard" thus the best we got are going to be those types of keyboard. There's a good topic in that of what is necessarily considered the peak of ergonomics whether that be chording (even in non-steno layouts like taipo or crescent) but I'm mostly covering single input keyboards :D

[@trashviewer3521]

@@val0rance What i'm trying to say is that stenography and other types of heavy key chording for words is on whole another level comparing to touchtyping. Both in complexity and time to learn. And characorder most marketable features is due to stenography, not ergonomics. Ergonomics of multiple rocker joysticks is highly questionable thing. The svalboard \ datahand individual finger keywells is much more practical to someone who doesn't want to spend time learning a whole new skill of stenography.

[@val0rance]

@@trashviewer3521 Ah, I see what you mean now. Yeah, 👍

[@xymaryai8283]

i'm not a typist, i am a gamer and occasional programmer, i need my function row, and i want a straightforward geometry so i can hit keys anywhere on the board, in any key combo, without looking. no-one makes a 6 row + numpad keeb. PLEASE someone do it, i need Fn, N-key rollover, numpad, and low latency wireless, optionally rebinding, lighting, device switching, bluetooth, hall effect analog, etc. Zack Freedman is doing the Mirage which gets some right, but its still too small and uh, still not shipping.

[@yiplp2437]

If you have a small size palm like me, it measures from wrist to the Mid Finger is 17cm then ortholinear is the way to go if you have a very bid palm, perhaps stagger keyboard fits better.

[@tankafer3127]

my issu with ortho it's when i need 2 letters verticaly aligned, usaly do it with 2 finguers, like de, fr, and lo, on ortho it's a pain

[@val0rance]

That's also a good point. Although, the same could be said for right hand on staggered.

[@jammies701]

Nice vid mate

[@jotix2570]

the first model of the commodore pet (1977) has an ortholinear keyboard, people don't like it and they switched to staggered...

[@val0rance]

Oh yeah, you're totally right!

[@the_tiny_Rambo]

I'm sorry, but that's not a study. It reads more like a marketing material. No detailed explanation, no sources... nothing.

[@val0rance]

If you're referencing the Typematrix study, that is kinda the point... The "study" done on the keyboard was practically marketing. I wanted to try and disprove some of the claims for that reason.

[@thesqueak5474]

can I get a link to the tetris game?

[@val0rance]

jstris.jezevec10.com

[@x2l244]

ortho is the way but better in split keyboards

[@purplelord8531]

imo ortho should almost always be paired with a split layout my reasoning is this: if you want to type 'properly' (as ortho encourages) with the right fingers on the right keys your wrists will bend. however, most people don't type 'properly', because it's uncomfortable, for that exact reason. this is why people swear by the magic keyboard - it's not ergonomic, but people use it 'ergonomically' because if a keyboard isn't built for us we will adapt to it I'm using an ortho monoblock, and even with some extra width between my hands, it kinda sucks trying to type 'properly'. This is why there is a veritable pipeline from ortho -> split -> column stagger. I think both mindsets are reasonable, because you don't get any faster by typing 'properly' (see: world records) - you only gain 'comfort' or 'feel'. why would I use the worst of both worlds? (ortho non-split?). simple: more keys and a thumb cluster :) edit: yeah, what you said, kinda

[@DwAboutItManFr]

Disagree.

[@mslice55]

i need a Ortholinear gaming keyboeard help ?

[@val0rance]

Sure, but could you list out your: - Budget - Size preference (how many keys you want) - Custom or not (do you want to be able to swap switches or overall make customizations) - Any extras

[@tankafer3127]

at least a 50%, but small modkey it's a pain in gaming, maybe the FoldKB from keebio

[@ohZap]

Hi

[@blacklistnr1]

Ortholinear keyboards only make sense as split keyboards with some tenting, as that is the natural position. Tiny orto is the worst combination I can imagine