Gore Vidal vs William Buckley Democratic Convention Debate 3

Gore Vidal vs William Buckley Democratic Convention Debate 3

[@megadick6000]

It's nice to know we're still yelling at each other about the same shit 50 years later, just with a lot less eloquence

[@toilet_cleaner_man]

I wouldn't call saying "now listen you queer" in a transatlantic accent as a retort "eloquent", but some may I suppose.

[@justingreen2432]

They were not eloquent either according to the times they were living in, they were just taking "normally". We only think it sounds eloquent because it "old timey sounding".

[@bickyboo7789]

​@toilet_cleaner_man let's agree to disagree

[@bubblegumxo]

​@@justingreen2432they weren't eloquent period 😂. It's actually a bit sad that politicians have always been so low and immature.

[@JEvans-wy9ln]

A lot less eloquence? The guy just threatened to punch him during a debate

[@SoullessMadness]

10:45... is what you came for. And, you're welcome.

[@LisaSimpsonRules]

They speak on top of each other. I can't actually make out what the hell they are saying. (No puns intended)

[@LisaSimpsonRules]

Anyway, thank you!

[@Manivilization]

@@LisaSimpsonRules Vidal: The only pro or crypto nazi I can think of is yourself. Failing that… (interrupted) Buckley: Now listen you queer, stop calling me a crypto-nazi, or i’ll sock you in your goddamn face and you’ll stay plastered Adjudicator [over the both of them]: Let’s stop calling names (repeated ish)

[@LisaSimpsonRules]

@@Manivilization Thank you++!!!

[@LisaSimpsonRules]

@@Manivilization Thank you a lot!

[@johnlewis1640]

This was not Theater or deliberately dramatized, Buckley and Vidal genuinely disliked each other for many years.

[@DavidWilliams-hv7so]

That's why they put them on TV

[@buckeyewill2166]

No, they didn’t dislike each other….They HATED each other.

[@KitsGravity]

​@@buckeyewill2166yup, even after Buckley died in 2008

[@dumbidiot3650]

No one more spiteful than a writer who knows a writer

[@TheseUseless]

I’d have hated Buckley too

[@rxboy]

Never thought I would EVER hear Buckley say the words "Ill sock you in the god-damned face" on TV! Wow 😂

[@heathenhammer2344]

Too bad he didn't do it

[@brugelxencerf]

he said the same thing to Chomsky

[@Kunsoo1024]

@@heathenhammer2344 Vidal would have taken him apart. He was an athlete.

[@Kunsoo1024]

@@brugelxencerf Yeah, but that was an ironic humor reference to this conversation.

[@weediestbroom]

I love how they just move on from the threat of violence, like thats a normal part of debate

[@gotruut9145]

We shouldn’t be fighting for freedom in Vietnam if we don’t have freedom of speech here in Chicago. Nailed it.

[@maggiesace389]

Gores usually conflation of 2 different issues; typical liberal.

[@adamvicari3295]

Gore Vidal, that liberal prick, deserved much more than a punch in the face, but nonetheless, it would have been extremely satisfying to see the great Mr. Buckley sock him in the face and knock his teeth out. Vidal would have earned it not just fir openly supporting communism and the Viet Cong, but for his snarkiness. Guys like him should have been sent over as cannon fodder for the Viet Cong instead of the Good Americans who died there. The Vietnam war was a mistake and should have ended long before it did, and should never have been fought in tbe first place, but the scum being talked about in this debate who "protested" at the convention in Chicago were NOT peotesting the war, they were calling for the triumph of the enemy and communist revolution. They were as evil as Vidal was. Nonetheless, the scum at the 68 convention did have the right to believe and say what they wanted under the constitution, but that doesn't make them any less scummy just because they had the right to be scum.

[@rayjr62]

@@maggiesace389 And Maggie's Ace is defending the crypto-Nazi William Buckley Jr.. Typical Republican fascist.

[@bartonlee3594]

@@maggiesace389 So squelching freedom of speech in justified in Chicago but freedom of speech is worth fighting for in Vietnam? Who knew!

[@maggiesace389]

@@bartonlee3594 did I say squelching freedom of speech in Chicago was okay? Regardless, Al Gore will always be an idiot. And the libturds will always follow his nonsense.

[@dkelly26666]

"Now, listen you quee-uh...."

[@ForeverBennett]

Buckley always kept his cool but you can tell Vidal really got under his skin in a big way.

[@louisstephen2043]

Tawasan casino

[@owiz9212]

Vidal was a master at pissing Buckley off. The smile on Vidal's face at 11:11 when Buckley sneered "Now listen, you queer.." was priceless. You could really tell that these guys hated each other's guts.

[@ForeverBennett]

@@owiz9212 Absolutely.

[@WintersWar]

I thought it was a draw. Both looked flustered the seconds after the exchange. Buckley looked agitated, and uncommonly nervous. Vidal looked like he was about to cry as his eyes darted back and forth as he seethed from the blistering insult, talking much more rapidly afterwards. Awkward moment.

[@fifthbusiness1678]

I dunno ... “... I’ll punch you in the goddamn mouth” suggests Buckley couldn’t always maintain his cool. Vidal easily had the better of him in this prolonged ‘debate’ in 1968. Buckley had a remarkable vocabulary but was no match for the intellect of Vidal, Baldwin, Chomsky, Hitchens et al.

[@JacF6734]

It's really funny looking back and seeing these two political pundits essentially having a Twitter beef before the app was even a thing

[@naan000]

truest statement I've read today

[@Joe-sx1zf]

Twitter didn’t invent discourse

[@lucianopavarotti2843]

Buckley brags he was in the infantry in WW2 . He never left the US, serving in Georgia and Texas. Not exactly the front line.

[@RealSpaceCatFallout]

My left ear loved this.

[@raginbakin1430]

“Shut up a minute” 😂

[@syourke3]

This is a classic moment in the history of American TV journalism - what a cat fight! A "queer" vs. a "crypto-Nazi!" Very entertaining! Vidal, of course, is correct in what he says and the police did behave outrageously in Chicago and people do have a right under the Constitution to wave Viet Cong flags if they want to regardless of how "provocative" others may find it. The entire purpose of the First Amendment is to protect the right of people to engage in political speech even if unpopular.

[@rhagedorn]

+Steven Yourke Absolutely. I bet Buckley defended the Ohio National Guard at Kent State when they used live ammunition on the students killing 4 of them.

[@zbbb906]

Now if they are calling for revolution to communism, no thank you.

[@megadick6000]

You'd get called a racist or transphobe if you said that today

[@davidschalit907]

​@@rhagedorn No he didn't.

[@donaldhysa4836]

Waving the flag of an enemy country while you are at war with them is perfectly fine? Lol no wonder your country is fucked

[@gamingwithslacker]

10:30 Vidal's hand gesture.

[@StevenAMckayAuthor]

"Shutup a minute" lmao

[@McLovin_2004]

​@@StevenAMckayAuthor No i wont.

[@mirusmedia]

I watched these Buckley v. Vidal debates live when I was 11 years old. I learned so much from these men about politics. I learned about the liberal and conservative views on the issues of the day. This is the first time, I have seen these since they were broadcast and they continue to be intellectually stimulating and educational. I am very proud to be an American citizen.

[@Joe-bh4vz]

You didn’t learn anything if you differentiate between liberal and conservative

[@mirusmedia]

​@@Joe-bh4vz I appreciate your comment. I was 11 at the time. I knew they had different views on the issues of the day, which I loved hearing about. I was open to hearing their points of view. They both made good arguments, frankly. However, as a 66-year-old, today, I use the terms liberal and conservative, back then, because I was interested in being a broadcaster, it was truly inspiring to me. I learned how important it was to understand both sides of an arguement. If you understand where your opponent is truly vested, then you have an advantage. It's like when I learned how to play chess at age 12. Developing strategy, by understanding how your opponent plays his game.

[@JT-hk9ur]

@@Joe-bh4vz There is certainly an overlap between the two in modern American politics - especially regarding economic principles. I find that the primary differences between the parties can be found in social views.

[@CaptainSpalding72]

​@Joe-bh4vz you didn't learn anything if you can tell the difference.

​@mirusmedia, you don't seem like you were born in 1957. I know that "good black don't crack," but you must have taken some kind of Fountain of Youth elixir if the guy on your profile picture is you today. That, or you are lying about being 11 years old when you watched this debate.

[@zeten___9908]

it's actually unbelievable how this debate could have taken place yesterday, and it wouldn't have been outside of relevant issues.

[@sethlabroad4065]

That's cuz Vidal started predicting our current situation as far back as the 50s. Most of his essays explained this...but his final work was his most accurate...Imperial America. I recommend watching the documentary made just before Christopher Hitchens and himself died. "United States Of Amnesia". A must watch it references this debate. And Don't forget the 2015 documentary about these 2..."Best Of Enemies". Buckley's own brother admits Vidal was right.

[@anchorbubba]

its because we have nearly the same problems with the same attitude towards those problems, government dosent give a damn and they never will, we the people cant pickup a 10 billion piece puzzle we need a government for that and they are throwing the pieces away they dont like

[@zeten___9908]

@@anchorbubba my point exactly

[@sethlabroad4065]

@anchor bubba in this case, you really need to think about it. Governments aren't people, they have people in charge, Governments are only supposed to build and ensure infrastructure. The people running the government is who don't give a rat's ass about the people. Do I really gotta quote Carlin on politicians and government?...they don't suck cuz they come from us, "the public sucks, fuck hope".

[@Kunsoo1024]

Which one of them had the smug sense of superiority? That's a trick question.

[@bri_____]

A robust, yet reasonable, long form debate like this would never happen on network television today.

[@nelsonhill4625]

except for the interrupting, homophobia and threats of violence lol

[@jackbluehq6653]

​@@nelsonhill4625trying to avoid those when having a debate is like the Titanic trying to avoid an iceberg, we know it can be avoided but it happens regardless

[@leetorry]

How many times do I have to tell you people that we dont need tv these days. We can get shit like this in youtube alone!

[@ordinaryopinion4081]

Yes it could. But it couldn’t have Trump / Hillary in the debate..

[@bri_____]

@@leetorry Because the lockdown regime proved that network television & associated mainstream media dictates public opinion. Despite the fact that nobody under 35 ever watches it.

[@tommym321]

When he mimicked Buckley’s pompous intonation of “law and order” I laughed out loud.

[@jeffym8929]

When will you radicals judge recipients of classism to be accredited victims? Soon I suspect

[@tejasnair3399]

@@jeffym8929 never. They will continue to erase entire cultures in this country. The Southern way of life, for instance, is dissapearing and being replaced by the new ubiquitous culture of the privelaged millenial, and they think themselves to be the ones speaking for the downtrodden.

[@tejasnair3399]

Bigot

[@maggiesace389]

You must be just as obnoxious as Gore vidal, then.

[@niallmcmahon8571]

'What is the point of our fighting in vietnam if [it's for a system where] you can't express yourself freely in chicago', gore vidal just levels them with that

[@johnnypastrana6727]

Very strong point...

[@gotruut9145]

Vidal persuades with facts and logic. Buckley persuades with circular erudition and long winded right wing dogma. “The author of ‘Myra Breckinridge did this, and he did that...” All ad hominem lavishly spewed by the king of conservative pablum. Both men would thrive today. Especially Buckley. The alt right narrative today is right up his alley.

[@niallmcmahon8571]

@@gotruut9145 yeah it's true, but even buckley, much as i dislike him, is more deserving than the modern day right wing conservitism that's just so depressing. When you lose an election, say that it was fraudulent, run on that platform to win an election, it is so shameful and i think future generations will look back at this as the most shameful age of american politics. I'm not inspired by many politicians whether they are democratic or republican but shame on anyone who votes for candidates who without any evidence about fraud attack democracy and incite riots when they lose a vote, 'it's me or it's violence'. If Vidal was alive today i don't think he'd demean himself to debate the republicans, i think he'd just turn away in disgust and do something better with his time and his mind, like any thinking person should whatever their partty loyalty or non party loyalty

[@TheMarshmelloKing]

There’s plenty of left-wing dogma in vidal. Both men make good points at times and dubious ones at others. They both make the same mistake most people do, which is to play the role of boxer for their “team” rather than really caring about the issues they discuss. I respect both men, but if you know anything about vidal you know he’s brimming with “pablum” just the same.

[@Globe14]

​@@TheMarshmelloKing Yes but Buckley seriously lacks manners. Violence and homophobia, constant interruption. Is that ok?

[@VideoAmericanStyle]

The best line is actually Vidal’s at the end: “What happened at Sharon?” Basically impugning Buckley’s ‘service’ during WWII when he was stationed in the US and never saw anything close to a battle.

[@mickeytwister4721]

Neither Vidal nor Buckley sore any combat. Vidal left the US, Buckley didn’t.

[@jago76]

Of course Vidal was absolutely correct about the Vietnam War. 60,000 Americans dead and a million Vietnamese dead. What a tragedy. The spat between Vidal and Buckley really isn't important in comparison.

[@Raulbikcube]

Yeah. They really took their eyes off the ball, here.

[@Censorededs]

The real tragedy was pulling out of the war. Talk to people from south vietnam what happened.

[@jago76]

@@Censorededs Have to disagree with you, my friend. The Vietnam war was responsible for millions of Vietnamese dead and 60,000 U.S. deaths and the poisoning of great swaths of their territory by Agent Orange and land mines. . It was essentially a civil war we should never have gotten involved in. Glad to see we are now on a very friendly basis with Vietnam, which, by the way, frequently stands up to China. I understand that most Vietnamese who migrated to the U.S. were on the other side and oppose the present government, but they are not representative of the Vietnamese people today. The war was probably the worst mistake ever made by the U.S. government. So I guess we'll have to agree to disagree/ Have a good day.

[@Censorededs]

@@jago76 You know how many starved to death after the war? How many were killed in an ethnic cleansing? How many were killed for owning business'? I'm very much aware of the current politics in Vietnam - my spouse is a vietnamese national. My extended family is vietnamese, go to a vietnamese region. Listen to their tales of hardship, endurement, and tell me again that vietnam was the biggest mistake the US made. The only mistake was 1) the draft and 2) pulling out too early. Even Ho Chi Minh himself said 2 more weeks and they would have given up.

[@jago76]

@@Censorededs More millions would have been killed if the war had continued. We will have to agree to disagree.

[@baronbrrrrett]

10:53 is what you all came for

[@rayjr62]

"stop calling me a goddamned nazi or I'll sock you in the face and you'll stay plastered."

[@KitsGravity]

Chad Vidal vs Virgin Buckley

[@christian8049]

Yes, because the man who lives for nothing but pleasuring himself is a chad. You win Mr-NeoAmerimutt

[@joan8734]

Chad Buckley**

[@TwoWorldTradeCenter]

This is why I love history. Time is a flat circle. Nothing said isn't new and will not be new.

[@bobbycormier]

I think that if someone is trying to defend himself against an over-the-top description of being a "crypto-nazi", the best way of going about it would NOT be to call someone a "queer" & then threaten him with physical violence, in person, on live television.

[@coreycox2345]

In my mind, "losing it" is losing the debate. Buckley and Vidal were both going for that. Vidal got it.

[@46dc9er]

Sure Buckley should have made up some BS story about being circumcised and throwing his foreskin at Gore Vidal

[@coreycox2345]

@Lewis 970 It is best to be above name-calling period, but not always easy.

[@coreycox2345]

@Lewis 970 That's not what I meant. I sometimes am tempted when frustrated. Both of these men were brilliant enough to skip the name-calling and did it anyway. It may have been entertaining to some. To me, the lack of restraint weakens the main arguments. It might be gamesmanship, though, which is another thing alltogether.

[@coreycox2345]

@Charles Barnes From interviews I have seen, Gove Vidal was not in the closet.

[@BeachDude0092]

10:31 shut up a minute. 😂

[@Anamcara6111]

I was 8 yrs. Old, and I remember them. My mother watched them, and politics.

[@andrewwilliams9599]

Vidal's war history is a matter of record. Vidal enlisted in the U.S. Army at age 17 and was assigned to work as an office clerk in the USAAF. Later, Vidal passed the examinations necessary to become a maritime warrant officer (junior grade) in the Transportation Corps, and subsequently served as first mate of the F.S. 35th, a US Army Freight and Supply (FS) ship berthed at Dutch Harbor in the Aleutian Islands. After three years in service, Vidal suffered hypothermia, developed rheumatoid arthritis and, consequently, was reassigned to duty as a mess officer.

[@DreamArchitect]

Well still more than you 😮

[@andrewwilliams9599]

@@DreamArchitect OK BOOMER

[@DreamArchitect]

@@andrewwilliams9599 tu madre is boomer your sister to I railroaded then last night in tijuana! You watched like a cuck! Lol

[@DreamArchitect]

Andrew Williams heterosexuality is a matter of record. As evidenced by the whispers of his madre and sister in my ear last night in the throes of passion. Andrew watched like Simp on the couch lol

[@DreamArchitect]

@@andrewwilliams9599 inaplogize for my words

[@domenicsandri2740]

If demonstrators raised any flag then they have the freedom to do so in their demonstrations.

[@rayjr62]

And calling someone a queer and threatening to sock them in the goddamned face in a Bostonian Transatlantic accent gives debate that extra touch of je ne sais quoi, I must say.

[@angushight7084]

I love the way Mr. Buckley and Mr Vidal spare with each other. I wish we had them here today. They would have have a field day slamming the government for the corruption that is rampant in the government. Plus I believe they would take on the country as to how far we disintegrated as a people. Hurray for how they expressed their views.

[@mckavitt13]

You mean spar w each other. They do all but spare each other.

[@NoriMori1992]

*spar

[@Ihatemyusernamemore]

These old clips are tripping me out, it's like subjectively in my universe the world before the 90s doesn't exist, but yet there's people in black and white having a heated debate, like the ones I watch online today, and comments from people who were around at the time

[@theonlyladybella44480]

They speak with such professionalism and grandioso. I love it!

[@jousif21]

Apparently “words will never hurt me” doesn’t apply to the police according to mister buckley

[@seanfitzgerald9320]

I see advocates of communism have been calling people Nazis for a long long time. But Buckley's response is none too different from what it deserves, even if he did embarrass himself by getting emotional.

[@joedeangelis4528]

Bill Buckley's son Christopher wrote in Losing Mum and Pup that he received a note from Vidal soon after his dad passed away. Vidal essentially wrote that he was happy his father died. I think that's all you need to know about the man.

[@MeMe-td1ye]

Rubbish

[@joedeangelis4528]

@@MeMe-td1ye And if you're good with that, you're no better than Vidal.

[@annacrow9716]

@@joedeangelis4528 well Vidal was an openly gay man in 60's america, anti Vietnam war and stood up for the constitution. So. Seems like a pretty good guy to me

[@joedeangelis4528]

? I'm sorry I missed your post. I'm not good with it at all. It reflects very poorly on the man.

[@joedeangelis4528]

@@annacrow9716 I suppose I didn't fully understand or appreciate that wearing one's sexuality on their sleeve was something to celebrate. It still doesn't excuse his comment to Chrisopher Buckley.

[@davidthompson62]

Two guys who hated every bone in the others body. Great debate you don’t see anymore!

[@MeMe-td1ye]

Interesting debating tactic threatening to punch opponent. Probably a losing approach tho

[@Landroverdude101]

What's sad, is that I listen to Buckley talk, and his party today is the opposite of almost everything coming out of his mouth...

[@rkid727]

In what way?

[@rkid727]

@@Landroverdude101 LOL!

[@TheJoeschmoe777]

Considering he was pro war and anti free speech here, that's actually a good thing.

[@MT-ys6ju]

American sounded so different back then to what it sounds today..

[@4doorsmorewhores34]

Piers Morgan was a political candidate back in the day 😂😂😂😂

[@dylanj.wadham5103]

10:58 "Gentlemen, let's gooo."

[@tyleranyways]

"Shut up a minute" LOLLL

[@manichairdo9265]

Winter of the world. 2nd of a trilogy by Ken Follet has taught me more about WW history and politics than everything else. Being girlie, I usually read love stories and overcoming hardship stuff but this war book is incredible. Only 10 pages left to read. 🎉

[@ernestito2222]

9:50 why you are here

[@charlespeterwatson9051]

I was looking ahead to 10:52 for the most famous moment of the Buckley/Vidal debates.

[@grega1972]

Vidal's grin after Buckley loses it is hilariously a look of " I got you Billlllllll !!!""

[@WintersWar]

Looked like Vidal's eyes were tearing in rage to me.

[@andromedastar4900]

@@WintersWar also, Buckley did not just "lose his cool". He was fixated on Vidal's homosexuality, and had called him a "pink queer" long before this explosive debate, and liked making sexual innuendos about Vidal, in an effort to degrade him. Vidal must have dealt with that crap his whole life...his own mother called him a "fairy" and "pansy" and told random strangers that her son was a homosexual.

[@WintersWar]

@@andromedastar4900 All that's probably true, but vidal wasn't one to contain his rancor. he gave as he got.

[@andromedastar4900]

@@WintersWar He certainly was a very complex person. I think there was a lot that shaped the aloof and acerbic person he became. The feeling of never belonging, even from a very early age, his homosexuality, his mother who was very emotionally abusive to him, and his first boyfriend, who was the love of his life, dying in WWII. It's understandable why he seemed so cold to others, and why he always seemed bitter and resentful. He knew he was seen as a pariah, and he had a lot of anger and general misanthropy because of that.

[@maggiesace389]

The look of a liberal, obnoxious, snot!

[@brickbrick8292]

Phenomenal

[@Jprcounter]

Strange watching this debate fresh from seeing best of enemies in the west end

[@E4439Qv5]

Who else is here from a Neuro-sama clip? 😆 Whoever it was that made this connection to Vedal, you're a comedy genius.

[@bbbushhh]

I like both these guys.....I am a bit more of a GV fan but Buckley has awesome style...and occasionally is right too!

[@johnnypastrana6727]

Bravo...

[@KarusMBII]

I think Buckley was a complete moron. Anybody who would stoop so low as to physically threaten someone in a political debate shouldn't even be allowed to speak their mind on such sensitive matters. I much prefer Vidal. Common sense, insisted on the dignity of the individual. Buckley had to constantly resort to insulting Vidal to make his points hit harder, which made him seem extremely weak in my eyes.

[@lubnaqureshi2853]

What happened to the hilarious reenactment of this encounter? It used to be on KZbin.

[@altfactor]

At 10:44 of this clip is the famous "Cryoto-Nazi" argument.

[@andromedastar4900]

Vidal at 11:20 looked absolutely livid. He never forgot or forgave this.

[@slartibartfast2977]

Not half as triggered as buckley a minute earlier.

[@OHAli]

Remember now, Buckley was the one who sued... lol

[@Flackack]

@@slartibartfast2977 I think Vidal was first triggered. Buckley began with the interrupting, however.

[@bluebird5173]

@@Flackack As triggered as Vidal was, he didn't threaten anyone. Can't say the same about Buckley.

[@rowenaburke4689]

Truth be told Buckly often tried to bully Vidal. Vidal wouldn't have it.

[@syourke3]

To think this was American television once upon a time not very long ago. Two of the most delightful snobs of all time engaging in a bitchy cat fight at a presidential convention!

[@76NightProwler]

10:53. I’ll have to bust this one out when the boss is putting down the hammer and I don’t get my way at work.. 😂

[@jeffym8929]

Brilliant

[@squidee]

my left ear loved this

[@ForeverYoung58]

Apparently there are color versions of every damn debate these guys had at the two '68 conventions except this one, which is, of course, the most memorable. More heat and less light than usual? Perhaps, but it made for great television. Buckley's facial expression says it all. He so wanted to knock Vidal on his ass.

[@smccord27]

But that's why HE'S Vidal and I'm not!

[@altfactor]

Maybe a professional rassling promoter should have put Vidal and Buckley in a steel cage match in the fall of 1968. Perhaps each of them could have donated their respective appearance fees to a charity of their choice.

[@royscott9162]

2023…and the media and masses are still using the same tired, old topics as a reason to hate each other 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@charleslynching]

" a young man came up to me and asked me-did you know William Daley is a fascist " I said no I thought he was a Catholic

[@tarhunta2111]

👏👏👏

[@themaskedman221]

And so was Buckley. And Vidal was an atheist, which I suppose back then made him a godless communist.

[@exex17]

Vidal the Nationalist vs Buckley the globalist.

[@Bellantoni]

Are we there yet?

[@kanegallagher9533]

Damn that’s some good tape.

[@FatrickAteman]

10:30 Underrated exchange.

[@charlespeterwatson9051]

If you've ever watched the documentary "Best Of Enemies", Vidal admits that his goal was to expose Buckley.

[@carolynzaremba5469]

And he did. I watched this live as it happened. I was 20 years old at the time.

[@roughhabit9085]

I have no idea how he was exposed .It seems a word like that needs some sort of qualification otherwise we are just guessing what it’s supposed to mean .

[@charlespeterwatson9051]

@@roughhabit9085 You'll have to watch all of their debates to see. Each debate was supposed to deal with the issues presented before both parties but because of Vietnam and 1968 being a brutal, sociopolitical year, they bring up each other's works from the past as ammo.

[@5inthehole]

@@roughhabit9085 -The most obvious is when Mr Buckley threatens Vidal with violence then calls him “a queer”. Buckley is a moralist wrapped in Republican clothing. It is against his Catholic morality to threaten anyone with violence and sully ones reputation by calling them a queer. In other words, Buckley, quite unwittingly, is exposing what he really is.....just like those violent policeman he’s defending.

[@BushyHairedStranger]

@@5inthehole Buckleys capacity for executive functioning utterly failed in a most blinding manner,...on live TV.

[@billf7062]

Buckley epitomized the thinking that initiated and fueled The Vietnam War. A war that, in retrospect, has been recognized as a mistake by almost everybody. A humble man would recognize that the young demonstrators in Chicago were those at risk of being drafted into service. The demonstrators had a right to be provocative, to be angry; their lives were in the balance. An arrogant man wants only obedience, unquestioned subservience to his will.

[@SlimeOgre]

i'm getting there

[@morobosiataru]

10:53 Is so funny now that i can see his smug smile + the context

[@andrewwilliams9599]

Buckley's war service: upon his graduation from the U.S. Army Officer Candidate School (OCS), he was commissioned as a second lieutenant in the United States Army. In his book Miles Gone By, he briefly recounts being a member of Franklin Roosevelt's honor guard upon Roosevelt's death. He served stateside throughout the war at Fort Benning, Georgia; Fort Gordon, Georgia; and Fort Sam Houston, Texas.

[@andrewwilliams9599]

Care to contest that, dreamarchitect?

[@rayjr62]

@@andrewwilliams9599 He won't because he can't. He is angry because Vidal is kicking Buckley's ass in this pseudo-debate

[@zacharylewis2802]

@@andrewwilliams9599According to Google, Vidal did desk work in the Army Air Force, then he became a commissioned officer on a freighter in Alaska. He spent most of that time as an officer in the mess hall because he kept getting sick. So yeah, they both didn’t see any actual combat. Vidal’s is slightly more impressive because he actually left the continental US.

[@roughhabit9085]

Buckley served out his National Service as a CIA spy in Mexico. What do they do to captured spies?

[@daha3074]

This is actually a good debate neverminded the banter.

[@Infernale]

my left ear really enjoyed this.

[@dmblum1]

It's important to remember the context: the war, in 1968, was already lost. McNamara knew it and he was one of the ones responsible for it. Yet it would go on for seven more years.

[@KevinBReynolds]

Gore Vidal destroys Bill Buckley.

[@rayjr62]

Buckley was't burned by Vidal, he was enveloped in a conflagration

[@mickeytwister4721]

He kinda bitched down after the threat

[@domenicsandri2740]

Maybe the police moved in, because the demonstrators commandeered a flagpole that wasn’t theirs. If they brought their own flagpole then possibly things would have been different. If the flagpole is public property, then that’s a toss up depending on how the Defendants defend themselves in court and are not tricked in signing away their rights.

[@5inthehole]

Does anyone know what Vidal is referencing when he claims Buckley distorting the record and saying “what happend at Sharon”?

[@funkrates4778]

Wow. I think it’s your lucky day as I happen to know this and you just posted this question. Buckley mentioned something in here about being on the frontline or something to that effect. I can’t quite hear it. However, Buckley never left the states during WWII. He was primarily in Georgia. It’s presumed that his family pulled some strings to ensure he was never put in danger. With regard to Sharon, that is the name of the town he resided in, where his residence is located. So Gore is claiming that William stayed safe inside the comfort of his home during the war.

[@5inthehole]

@@funkrates4778 -Thank you for your reply. I just found out his family’s home is in Sharon Conn. Have you ever hear the story that Buckley denigrated a Protestant church, including putting nude photos in pray books, while at Yale?

[@funkrates4778]

@@5inthehole yah. You bet. Ha! Where did you hear that? About the defiling of bibles? I DO KNOW that Buckley wrote for Penthouse Magazine a few times. A Softcore porn mag back in the 80s. Kind of makes him a hypocrite. But the nudes in bibles at Yale! Hah. That’s funny. Where did that come from?

[@roughhabit9085]

He did serve out his National service as a CIA agent in Mexico. I’m sure you two knuckleheads would have been brave enough to do that.

[@tommym321]

@Rough Habit -shut up you idiot and let the grownups talk.

[@davidthompson62]

After the “Crypto-Nazi” argument, Buckley stated he was an a soldier which Vidal said “what happens at Sharon” Does anyone know what that “Sharon” comment referred to?

[@VideoAmericanStyle]

It’s a dig at Buckley’s ‘service’ - he had a cushy role and never was overseas during WWII. And he was from Sharon, CT, so basically Vidal is saying what sort of military action did you find at home?

[@imran.alshabazz]

Straight up savages

[@tgore276]

i always thought it interesting that buckley calls those who express freedom of speech "pro nazi", gore defended those who expressed their consitutional right and turned it back on buckley that he was opposing the constitution. conservatives always look that part of this conflict.

[@BoringOats]

Based.

[@craigenputtock]

If only they had lived long enough to read "The Polity of Beasts " .. it would have been something they might have agreed on.

[@xxxxxx-tq4mw]

I had been drafted into the american army on was at fort dix, new jersey during this time period.

[@SamvedIyer]

I am finding it extremely difficult to either support or oppose either of them in this regard. On the one hand, absolute freedom is a myth, lest society morph into an ungovernable mess. On the other, restrictions might often be obsequious to subjective opinion. It is truly a matter of great adroitness.

[@chiip90]

How do you feel about claiming to have fought on the front lines in the infantry in WW2 when they had a desk job? How do you feel about calling someone "queer" and threatening to beat them up?

[@leelandlagasse6517]

@@chiip90 The claiming to be veterans is wrong, but the banter that neither of them are offended by is fine. This is coming from someone who is queer.

[@roughhabit9085]

He was a CIA spy in Mexico. Idk , that seems pretty brave to me .The Nazis were Socialists , it’s even in their name, so it’s understandable that the founder of the Conservative movement would have been highly offended.

[@TheAsheybabe89]

​@@chiip90where did he claim to fight on the front lines? He simply claimed to be in infantry, which is entirely possible to do stateside.

[@adamredfield]

This was a famous moment and I remember it. I was 8 and was in a politically active and divided family. On my mother's side, the federal government considered us dangerously rightist. On my father's side, dangerously leftist. (My father was an actor, blacklisted in the 1950's) Vidal succeeded in his mission, which was to provoke Buckley into losing it. Buckley regretted it for the rest of his life. On the other hand, Buckley composed himself sufficiently to make the most important point, which is that what is a man's right might still not be the right thing to do and when evil ideologies, like the communism of SDS and the fascism of Rockwell and the racism of Maddox hide behind our liberties, we ought to denounce and make of them pariahs.

[@fromchomleystreet]

Except that the suggestion made by Buckley is that raising a Ho Chi Minh flag and calling out obscenities in reference to police is a “provocation” that somehow justifies police violence. He retrospectively tries to make it about “ostracising”, which makes no sense in context. Nobody denies him his right to ostracise whoever he likes. The issue under discussion is state violence, and under what circumstances it is or isn’t justified.

[@adamredfield]

@@fromchomleystreet Thank you for the reply. Good point. The subject, overall, was the police response. Buckley did condemn the police violence, indeed he called it "despicable." but was arguing that it was not an indication of a fascist state in Chicago. It was an odd inversion for Buckley to be defending Mayor Daley and President Johnson, both Democrats. And I overstated the matter when I wrote that the "most important point" was his assertion, boiled down, that what a man has the right to do is not necessarily the right thing to do. That said, it was moderator, Howard K. Smith not Buckley, who moved the subject to the "provocative act," as he termed it, of replacing the American flag with the Viet Cong flag and calling not for peace in Vietnam but for a military victory by the communists (to be clear, the great majority of protestors were NOT for a communist military victory but a minority of far leftists were, such as the two men Buckley cites: Hayden and Davis). Was this sort of protest beyond the bounds of free speech, is where Smith is going with this example. Buckley doesn't say it ought to get one beaten by cops, though he also makes it clear it wouldn't much bother him if private citizens throw tomatoes and other objects, but he does say that those people should not be celebrated by the media, as they often were, but ostracized and that twenty-five years earlier such was the case. That's an important context to the exchange. It isn't so much whether Buckley personally has the right to ostracize such people, as you correctly point out, of course he does and without any damage to himself. The point is, that American society at large ought to ostracize them and that the new media should marginalize them, not chase them for quotes, sound bites, TV segments, etc. That is, it would have been unthinkable for any news organization in 1945 to have given an ounce of sympathetic coverage to people who tore down an American flag in a public part and replaced it with a Nazi flag and then called for a victory for the Axis powers.

[@andromedastar4900]

Buckley only regretted that he dropped his intellectual demeanor in public, on national television. He didn't regret calling Vidal a queer and this was not the first time he'd called him that (just the first time he did it in person and in such a public setting), as Buckley made no secret of his disdain for Vidal and Vidal's homosexuality. He just regretted "losing his cool" in front of the cameras.

[@adamredfield]

@@andromedastar4900 Thank you. Yes, I think you're right about that.

[@roughhabit9085]

@ Andromedastar . I agree Buckley regretted that he lost his cool and stooped to name calling, not that he might have hurt Vidal’s feelings. It’s interesting that Tanenhaus who wrote a biography on Buckley and knew him for 15 years said he never heard him say a bad word about Vidal and that he always referred to him as Gore.

[@velvetpaws999]

Well, the right to free expression is guaranteed by the constitution. And this means, all expression of any kind of opinion. It seems, that if a crowd chants "Ho Che Min" for several hours, that was unacceptable. In Germany, where we have lived for half a century - not in but right next to - the communist block, with 1/3 of former Germany being at the time locked up behind the Iron Curtain into the communist part of the world (the Soviet Union), we are nonetheless democratic enough to allow pamphlets to be distributed about voting communist on the next major election, and this in the middle of the most catholic city, Wuerzburg, without anyone throwing as little as an insulting word at another person. Thank you, take the pamphlet, walk around the corner and throw it into the trash, if you don't care to read it. But give everybody the right to express what they believe in. That is a mature and democratic attitude. Beating the you-know-what about those who are not aligned with the majority of the day is simply not democratic. Not at all.

[@SpaceTimeManipulatorSTM]

Oh wow, fancy talk for the same exact shit were dealing with today.

[@MichaelMcCausland-pg6qs]

Well, we have a repeat

[@regalcartoon3952]

Oh politics used to be funny back then. Now when everyone argues it is just annoying.

[@just4music687]

Wow the moderator conflates Vietnamese fighting for freedom from colonialism with the Nazis. What on earth.

[@louisgonzalez8846]

Just shows you how ignorant they are.

[@roughhabit9085]

As I understood it the left sent troops to S. Vietnam to protect them and the one million refugees that fled from the North , from the communists . Is that Colonialism?

[@bucinator9879]

He was right to do so. Commies need to go.

[@annacrow9716]

@@bucinator9879 Vietnam is one of few countries in the world to use military force for the explicit purpose of stopping a genocide. America meanwhile put hundreds of Nazis in positions of power

[@oneeyeddave1964]

55 years today

[@chrisoj]

The sarcasm !

[@jonahmoore2748]

Buckley admitted years later he was wrong on the war. Makes his defense of it stupid.

[@roughhabit9085]

He admitted it was futile, there’s a difference. It was futile for two reasons. When they left the region millions of people that they had initially protected were slaughtered, and secondly the invidious ideology that they put a tourniquet on to stop its spread , is now consuming the entire western world by attrition.

[@Deebo210]

He wasn’t defending the war but rather correct forms of protest.

[@infinitejest441]

Is that a pencil that WFB sticks in his ear? This was like a wierd comedy sketch 😂

[@JohnBrownsBody]

I was hoping Vidal would pick up on Buckley’s sly turn of the argument. In his defense of the Chicago PD, he compares it to counterprotesting Pro-Nazi rallies. But the difference there is that the counterprotestors in this allegory are also private citizens choosing to express their dismay and anger at the rally. In the case of the Convention, it was the police force and local government that chose of its own volition to repress the protestors. Not the same thing at all, but I guess Vidal didn’t have the time to hit on that.

[@64yanks]

The first time Vidal told Buckley to shut up, was when Buckley decided to lose it, and he wore it well

[@rkid727]

There’s a great documentary about these two out there somewhere. Think it’s called Best of Enemies.

[@leogrogan1923]

Great tip, thanks,

[@ginnylin]

Also an award winning play now.

[@bjornbaron5940]

Wm Buckley is an irksome person.

[@Red27373]

10:53

[@ropeswingify]

Man.. Remember when from time to time 'intelligence' could be seen in the media. Sigh..

[@Kunsoo1024]

A bunch of what they are talking about was depicted well in The Trial of the Chicago 7. The movie took a lot of poetic license, but I thought the removing the badges part of the movie was fictionalized drama. That's actually pretty scary!