Why the Essence-Energies Distinction is CRUCIAL to Orthodox Theology (w/ Dr. David Bradshaw)

[@HeartGal]

All the converts are saying that they’re still learning, and here I’m a cradle Orthodox trying to learn, too. Lol. The journey never ends. ☦️

[@HeartGal]

Also, as someone with an English degree who’s very interested in the use of words and their meaning, the idea that the West doesn’t have an idea due to a translation issue is interesting and funny at the same time.

[@GospelSimplicity]

Well said!

[@ionictheist349]

Thats the best part of Orthodoxy

[@TheAncientLight]

Icon of "The Good Shepherd" looks amazing in the background ☦️💜

[@GospelSimplicity]

Thanks!

[@triscat]

Wow! Thank you, Austin. That was unexpectedly wonderful. Dr. Bradshaw is new to me and I was completely energized by his presentation of these ideas. Even as an Orthodox convert for 12 years, I still feel like a novice.

[@GospelSimplicity]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@parker7923]

He makes a compelling case. Thank you both.

[@GospelSimplicity]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@ignatiusl.7478]

It warms my heart to know there are young men and women like Austin who take Theology and their relationship with God seriously. This was a fantastic discussion! It was edifying and Grace filled. Austin you are a fantastic interviewer. Don’t stop what you are doing my friend.

[@bonniejohnstone]

Essence/Energies and mystery are common concepts to Orthodox Christians. Everything we do is a cooperation between us and God in the cycles of fasting, prayers, acts of charity, repentance. Far from vain actions they are opportunities to keep the remembrance of God ever present.

[@T_frog1]

Do the Oriental Orthodox believe in it?

[@noahjohnson2611]

@@T_frog1 yes

[@T_frog1]

@@noahjohnson2611 Are you sure? I don't think they venerate the heretic Gregory Palamas.

[@footsoldier1188]

@@T_frog1 heretic lol, what r u

[@T_frog1]

@@footsoldier1188 I'm a Roman Catholic, part of the Church founded by Jesus.

[@Theoria]

20 comments before the premiere. Bravo

[@GospelSimplicity]

Thanks!

[@alexandros0828]

167 now... lol

[@ProtectingVeil]

189 as the premiere rolls...impressive(!)

[@AlexiusY21]

@OrthodoxyChloroQuine He'll become a Dyerite soon.

[@AR-qs2ng]

@OrthodoxyChloroQuine i have seen your comments on many many orthodox videos

[@Meikyuu1024]

I've been excited for this conversation since your talk with Fr. Peter Heers. I recently led my parish [Anglican] through this topic over the course of a few weeks. It sparked such exciting reflection that I've received a number of requests to explore Orthodox theology more frequently - something that is as much of an opportunity for me to learn as the folks in our community!

[@GospelSimplicity]

That’s wonderful!

[@helovesmankind]

Glory to God, Tyler! Have you heard of Western Rite Orthodoxy?

[@Meikyuu1024]

@@helovesmankind I have! Funnily there is one here in the town I live in bearing the same patronage as my own parish (St. Nicholas).

[@helovesmankind]

@@Meikyuu1024 wonderful. I'm currently at a ROCOR Western Rite in TN. Love it.

[@Meikyuu1024]

@@helovesmankind Praise the Lord!

[@1stlast290]

It speaks volumes that Bradshaw has the scriptures open for this interview. Many philosophers would not.

[@jorge-torquato1893]

Wonderful talk. I'm an orthodox seminarian and this talk/lecture has been very useful to come up with some useful ideas to use in my studies.

[@GospelSimplicity]

Glad to hear that!

[@thestraightroad305]

With all respect to Augustine for his brilliance and his devotion to God, it seems to me that his refusal to learn Greek as a schoolboy has had stunning and tragic consequences to the Western world because of the lost understanding of how God interacts with the free creatures He made and loves. I say this as a committed Christian in the Protestant tradition, now discovering Orthodoxy. My thinking about God and how He deals with me are becoming completely transformed. This has affected how I perceive and interact with my family, my neighbors…most importantly my prayer life and how I relate to The Lord Jesus Christ. For years, reformed theology and the typical Protestant mix of doctrine have contributed to an overall sense of despair and discouragement in my life. Learning the actual history of ideas-and their disappearance-is changing my understanding and how I live. I am finding that peace and confidence in God I have longed for. Thank you for presenting yet another piece of the puzzle. It is finally beginning to fit together. This is the third or fourth of your videos I have watched and I now subscribe. I respect your kind, encouraging and gentle method of interviewing. It is an example to follow. I pay close attention to how you ask your questions. Again, heartfelt thanks.

[@amg2598]

I think if the schism hadn't have happened, the Eastern traditions would have balanced out Augustine on some of these things over time. The Latin tradition just wasn't meant to stand all by its lonesome and have too much emphasis on one dude. Even fathers who knew Greek well could be off about some things. Instead the Roman tradition cemented it through at times excess philosophizing.

[@Orthodoxi]

Glory to God!

[@jeffreykalb9752]

Then he would have parroted previous theology and would never have made the brilliant contributions he did.

[@chrisdelarrabeiti3884]

This interview has to be up there with the very best you have done. Enjoyed this and your interview with Fr Peter Heers immensely. Thank you. Just subbed

[@GospelSimplicity]

Glad you enjoyed it! Thanks for the sub!

[@a___8___h]

Thank you for asking all the questions that I myself was thinking of during the discussion. You make difficult theological concepts more accessible to non scholars 🙌

[@GospelSimplicity]

That's my goal!

[@csterett]

Having lived in KY for 59+ years before moving fo FL, the fact that he teaches at UK caught my attention. That said, I have to say he did a good job of putting things on a level everyone can understand. It would have been easy for him to talk in “academia speak”, but he didn’t. Kudos for another good interview!

[@GospelSimplicity]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@gheel]

When you find all your favorite Orthodox youtubers in the Gospel Simplicity comments ❤️😄

[@GospelSimplicity]

Great to see so many people here!

[@AlexiusY21]

The comment section is full of Dyerites 😀

[@AlexiusY21]

@JL-XrtaMayoNoCheese I like the term and I'll probably be banned again from his chat for using it.

[@LadyMaria]

@@AlexiusY21 No, but devout Orthodox yes.

[@MycoKing]

I really enjoyed this! Dr. Bradshaw was very enlightening on many issues. When he described the cooperation with the Divine Synergy, as a Roman Catholic I just kept thinking of it being cooperating with Divine Grace in the Latin tradition. I learn so much from listening to your guests, whether Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant. Thanks again for a greaat talk, Austin and Dr. Bradshaw.

[@a.p3123]

Thank you for these videos! I'm learning to finally articulate my Orthodox faith

[@GospelSimplicity]

You are so welcome!

[@GottaFly]

Please read ch 6 of" The Greek East and the Latin West" - it goes far deeper, more personal than just dovetailing with other dogma which it certainly does, as it comes down to , "can I experientially/existentially/ontologically know God in time, before eternity," or just know "about" Him , by analogy, etc - HUGE implications for how that plays out in one's life - do we just "learn about God", intellectually grow and battle these things out, or do we purify our hearts of the passions so that our knowledge is fed mystically/internally. (See Vladimir Lossky, Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church and Dumitru Staniloae, Orthodox Spirituality.) It has HUGE epistemological ramifications: how do we even come to "know" theologically? At this point Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism radically diverge. Can't wait to hear this interview. johna

[@GospelSimplicity]

Thanks for sharing these insights!

[@aaronbenjaminjacobs3231]

This goes to show you have absolutely no idea the Roman teaching and understanding of Pure actuality/Divine simplicity. Furthermore, it seems that you are one who accepts the EE distinction, so how can you explain The Holy Spirit of God being “Essence itself” and being fully God, third person of the most Holy Trinity, coming and dwelling within us and making our bodies temples of his spirit? Of course, the Third person of the Most Holy Trinity is most dreadfully impacted by the EE distinction. I suggest you read the fathers of the church, East and west on pure actuality, how we can know God, and the person of the most Holy Trinity. The EE distinction is a grave heresy that distorts our view of God, and claims that the energies of God “are uncreated energies, yet not God himself”. Something to think about, God bless you.

[@esoterico7750]

@@aaronbenjaminjacobs3231 Even Catholics don’t think the essence of the spirt dwells in you either. Trent says that grace is a created formal cause in the soul

[@franssotardugasihombing3358]

@@aaronbenjaminjacobs3231 Essence of God is God, Energy of God is God. You are clearly misinterpreting.

[@vituzui9070]

@@esoterico7750 Catholics believe in both created and uncreated grace. The uncreated grace is the Holy Spirit that dwells in us, and the created grace is an accident of the soul.

[@edwardhall2067]

What a wonderful discussion! And Bonnie's comment really put into words what I am learing as an Orthodox catechumen. Great clarity!

[@jesse77able]

I always enjoy your charitable interviews, and you have a good enough understanding of the issues to ask great questions. Thanks to both of you, well done!

[@GospelSimplicity]

Thank you so much! Glad you're enjoying them!

[@friednotsteamed7956]

David Bradshaw is a genuinely nice person and profound scholar. I remember meeting him while completing my Ba. of Theology in Sydney Australia. He joined in with the students during a Vespers service that we held daily.

[@GospelSimplicity]

That's wonderful to hear!

[@fr.davidbibeau621]

This was very good. Dr Bradshaw is wonderful. God is good!

[@GospelSimplicity]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@pontification7891]

this interview was just fantastic... I've learned a lot of things, and had to rewatch it... probably going to rewatch it somewhere in the future too, and will be sharing this!

[@GospelSimplicity]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@ggarza]

I love that you put your head down and walk right into the middle of some of the most polemical topics in Christianity, such as Quietism in Eastern Orthodoxy, and do so with respect and fairness to your guests. I appreciate that you listen to those who advocate for their position and let them characterize their own arguments.

[@GospelSimplicity]

Thanks!

[@sugarloaf10]

So many leaders could learn from Austin’s example.

[@duckeggcarbonara]

Hey Austin, loved the video. Just putting out my suggestion for whenever you might get around to your next Orthodox interview - I would absolutely LOVE to see Fr. Dcn. Ananias (also known as "TheNorwegianNous" on KZbin) talk on your channel. He's an excellent philosophical mind and a great ambassador for Orthodoxy. Cheers!

[@Afro-Capitalist]

This channel is the mister rogers of theology.

[@GospelSimplicity]

Haha, I don't know whether you meant that as a compliment, but I sure am taking it as such. What a guy

[@MrJMB122]

@@GospelSimplicity That's like the best compliment I seen you ever Received.

[@untoages]

I've actually found myself recently describing God as "beyond" our comprehension in many ways. It's interesting I came across this - what I was describing was really God's essence that is ineffable.

[@GospelSimplicity]

Glad you came across it!

[@processandbeing]

Protestant from TX here. I'm absolutely loving your ecumenism and the deep appreciation of ecclesial diversity you bring to every interview. It would be so cool to see more, like convos with Ethiopian or Syriac Orthodox Christians, particularly surrounding the role of language in the development of theology as mentioned here.

[@miodragmarinkovic5202]

Being an Orthodox, I still have an understanding for the failures of various fathers in the West. Even today, when technology has given us fast and efficient communication from one side of the world to the other, we have communication errors. Imagine the Middle Ages, illiteracy, bad correspondence from Greek and Hebrew to Latin, it is easy to make mistakes even now, especially in those days. One mistake in translating the works of the Holy Fathers leads you to heresy.

[@amg2598]

The East had some pretty crazy heresies in the early days and Rome was rock solid. That's why all the councils were held in the east because that's where things were going down. Your point on language is good but I do question whether the early Latin were any more prone to error than the early Greeks

[@mariorizkallah5383]

@@amg2598 many popes were condemned for heresies in ecumenical councils, no see is without stain

[@morpheusgreene2704]

@@amg2598 lol. "rock" solid.

[@barbaravandriel1179]

Brilliant conversation ... the best yet! Thank you so much.

[@visancristian8450]

Austin, great, really great interview and good questions. You know, Jay Dyer mentioned you in one of his streams, after your interview with Father Peter Heers, he recommended your interview and i m absolutely positive he will make an interview with you any time. He has done many interviews with protestants who are in search, like your self and he was very kind with them, so maybe you should check him out also. Your subscribers are his subscribers in most part, as orthodox or those who are in search for truth about who we are and why are we here, who God is, what is the ultimate purpose for existing and that kind of questions. Please consider that and have him on your stream. Thanks again!

[@alfredhitchcock45]

God is - enabling you - working through you - strengthening you

[@orthodoxchristian7603]

Bradshaw's book 'Aristotle East and West' is one of the best books out there for people who are looking to shift into the Orthodox worldview and leave the impoverished western worldview.

[@GospelSimplicity]

I need to read it

[@gregpavlik6474]

@@GospelSimplicity Perhaps an interesting reflection on the professor's book: theoaesthetics.ru/david-bentley-hart-the-theologian-is-a-quiet-rioter.html In any case, whatever the merits/demerits of Bradshaw's position, it is a modern philosophical position. The one takeaway I had when I read his book some time ago (at which point I was certainly programmed to be predisposed to his argument) is that it is wildly anachronistic from a historical perspective. Of course that doesn't make it wrong, but it's certainly not "what Orthodoxy teaches" in some broad sense; that said, there's a reason that RC theologians/philosophers don't take it seriously.

[@shibainu121]

Ok Austin, so when are you going to become a catechumen!?You are already doing catechumen stuff! I was protestant for 48 years and was accepted to Moody Bible Institute back in 1989. I did not go, but I was a huge Moody fan! Becoming Orthodox is the best thing that ever happened to me. It has taken my relationship with God to a whole new level!

[@visancristian8450]

Friend of everybody means friend of no one. But he looks like he is more friendly with orthodoxy with every interview he makes. I'm sure he allready wants to become orthodox. Some people need more time to convert. He is a wonderfull person and He loves God. He will come home, like the rest of us did.

[@GospelSimplicity]

Thanks for sharing some of your story! I still have quite a lot of questions. Sometimes more information makes things more complicated

[@jnorm888]

It took me 10 years and so it's most definitely different for everyone

[@BoBo0807]

I remember speaking with Archbishop Job of Chicago, of blessed memory. His "home" parish, as Bishop of Chicago, was literally right across the street from MBI, and he told tales of wonderful, friendly conversations he would have with some of the students who would visit for Divine Services.

[@SLVBULL]

@@GospelSimplicity reminds me of a man who is color blind. He can stare at the two colors which look the same to him trying to distinguish which one is which. Meanwhile his brother is showing him what the two colors are.

[@louisaccardi2268]

Dr. Bradshaw's use of the term synergy threw a new positive light on the term synergy. I always thought of synergy as the adding of ideas together in our Faith that makes it heterodox. Bradshaw uses the Biblical Greek to show what it really is. Excellent theological doctrine that changes everything in the West. The East kept this jewel alive.

[@mrwiggiewoo]

Thoroughly enjoyed this. Yes, a lot to think about.

[@hmkzosimaskrampis3185]

I love how you can like and dislike videos before they even air... Having said that, this should be good...

[@GospelSimplicity]

It is an interesting thing

[@TheRealRealOK]

Lookin forward to this one.

[@GospelSimplicity]

Hope you enjoy it!

[@AR-qs2ng]

o k

[@ayonio5723]

The way I see the western world embracing the 'energies' of God is through the Charismatic movement. It's a way of being open to God's action and glory broadly within that philosophicial system

[@issaavedra]

This was so good. Thank you!

[@Myheartwilltriumph]

Thanks for the interview Austin! From my study of the western Catholic mystical tradition, I have reached all of these same conclusions presented here while using the model of divine simplicity. I do not see how divine simplicity prevents one from accessing these concepts, since I have done so personally on my own accord without prompting from Eastern Theology and using purely Catholic sources. My readings have included the works of St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Avila. I suppose my point is to disagree that divine simplicity goes against these mystical concepts of God.

[@jaredwilliams1031]

Frankly, it’s terrifying that very well-read and intelligent people all over the place can’t seem to come to this conclusion

[@LadyMaria]

Roman Catholics believe in created grace, that makes a difference.

[@lupinthe4th400]

Oh boy, can't wait!

[@GospelSimplicity]

Hope you enjoy it!

[@rwilliams638]

Austin, I love your videos! You have such a gift at interviewing people. Thank you. From a fellow Protestant converting to Catholicism.

[@GospelSimplicity]

Glad you’re enjoying them!

[@OrthobroAustin]

Blessings. A brief exegesis of Isaiah 42:1-43:12 for you, which I believe speaks to the divine episcopal structure of the Catholic Apostolic Church, as opposed to the subservience to a supreme pontiff as in Catholicism or the variations of the branch theory/invisible church found in Anglicanism and Protestantism. I have shortened the text in places to clarify what I perceive to be the significant meaning and exchanged the words "Ruler", "Petra", and "Child", for: "Bishop", "Peter", and "Son", according to the mind of Jesus Christ, and as these would have likely been understood by our Fathers in the Faith. Please read the scripture for yourself, and see for yourself whether this is or is not appropriate exegesis. --- First we know that Jacob is a foreshadowing of Jesus being the unique covenantal son of God and the Patriarch from whom the twelve are "sent" from as the foundation of Israel (Rev. 21). So when we read Jacob, the "son", here we can understand it to be pertaining to our Great Master and God Jesus. Moving on from this, we find a foreshadowing of the Petrine identity of the new covenant: "Extol his name from the end of the earth.. you islands and those who dwell in them.. Those who inhabit Petra will be cheerful, from the mountain tops they will shout, they will announce his praises among the islands.." So this is teaching us that the gospel, the proclamation, will only rightly go out in all the corners of the earth from within the rulership of "a rock" which is the bishopric (which was given for the apostles through Peter from Christ). After this, we read that Jacob (Jesus) has become honoured and glorified, this is spiritually teaching us of the Lord's glorification and ascension to the Father, and how those who rest in the Lord (Israel) are too deified in his likeness which is theosis. The real kicker to me is what comes next, it says that because of God's love for his son, he has given his son rulers (Bishops), which is plural, for his head, which is singular, (recall Ignatius's emphasis on the bishop being Jesus Christ) who are gathered together from among ALL the nations that have been gathered together. So that there is no one supreme pontiff, in the church that Jesus himself has founded, to whom the other bishops are subservient to, but rather all of the bishops rule Christ's church on earth as fellow-servants equal in authority. And THIS church, and the apostolic episcopal structure of THIS church is his true and faithful witness. God love, bless, and keep you. Amen. ---------------------- Here is the scripture, Isaiah 42:1-43:12: “Jacob is my Son, I will help him; Israel is my chosen one my soul has accepted him. I have given my spirit upon him; and he will bring forth judgment upon the nations...He will blaze forth and will not be shattered until he brings justice upon the earth, and the nations will hope in his name...I, the Lord God, have called you in righteousness, and I will hold fast onto your hand and strengthen you and I will give you for a covenant of the nation to open the eyes of the blind, to lead those who are bound out from their chains, and those seated in darkness out of prison. Look! The things which were from the beginning have come, and I have made new things known to you, which I reveal even before they are announced. Sing a new song to the Lord. It is his reign; extol his name from the end of the earth, you who go down to the sea and sail it, you islands and you who dwell in them...Those who inhabit Peter (Petra: a rock) will be cheerful, from the topmost point of the mountains they will shout; they will give glory to God; they will announce his praises among the islands... And now this is what the Lord God who made you, Jacob, and who formed you, Israel, says: ... “Since you have become honoured before me, you have been glorified, and I have loved you, and I will give people for you, and bishops (rulers/overseers) for your head. Do not be frightened for I am with you; I will lead your seed from the east, and I will gather you from the west... All the nations have been gathered together, and bishops will be gathered from among them. Who will announce these things? Or who will announce the things to you from the beginning? Let them bring their witnesses and let them be vindicated and let them hear and speak truthfully. “Be witnesses to me, and I am a witness,” says the Lord God, “and the Son (the child), whom I have chosen, in order that you may know and believe and understand that I am; before me there is no other God, and there will be no one with me... I am God, and there is no other beside me who saves... You are my witnesses.

[@OrthobroAustin]

Furthermore beloved, the Pope has been seen in Catholic apologetics and understanding as a visible high priest figure and an Earthly head of God's people.... But look, the church of God has one high priest who is already flesh and blood and ministers in the Heavenly Jerusalem and in the Holy Temple. There is no need for another high priest figure or head of God's people besides Jesus Christ. And now, does the Pope have equals in jurisdiction and brotherhood? No, but the High priest was an equal in brotherhood among his chief priests. Jesus Christ is the High Priest, and the bishops are his chief priests and representatives of his head on this earth, who are equals among each other and in one brotherhood with Jesus Christ the Lord. But Catholicism is unable to have this image because it is a house built on sand and a lower order than the heavenly order of God's church.

[@Durnyful]

Very well stated. Explains the divergence of thinking between east & west & its implications for correct interpretation of scripture.

[@GospelSimplicity]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@thattimestampguy]

0:00 Thanks for Supporting The Channel 1:00 Thanks to the Sponsor of this video interview. 1:47 Description of Dr David Bradshaw’s Resume. 2:24 Dr David is asked to tell us a little about his personal academic background. 4:06 Connecting with Students. 4:36 Dr David Bradshaw was Protestant/Non-Denominational/Evangelical then converted to Orthodoxy when he attended college 🏫🎓 5:43 What is Essence-Energies? • Energy -> Energia, St Paul uses the term. 6:58 Apostolic Fathers 7:51 Energia -> Latin ⚠️ • It loses the meaning St Paul had meant by using the term Energia. 8:55 Synergy 9:47 10:20 Essence aka Ousia 10:54 Essence = How God Knows Himself To Be Energy = God As He Is Manifest Among Creatures 11:57 Language 12:21 Essence feels normal 12:47 Synergy 13:57 Coworking With God • He Gives • You Work • Yours Becomes His 14:56 2 Men Working Together To Build A House 🏠 16:44 What we do is made effective by God. 17:41 Now he’s really open to receive The Grace of God, enabling him to be The Person God intended him to be. 19:23 East: Essence Energies [EED] West: Absolute Divine Simplicity [ADS] 22:33 God Is …. Perfections 24:29 Naming God is actually Naming Energies of God. 24:53 Augustine, because he lacked the term (Energia?) Augustine thought we were naming God’s essence, so Augustine made a mistaken view. 27:04 Augustine’s understanding of Predestination. Augustine lacked/lost the idea of Synergy. 29:15 Bad Premise can multiply into Many Mistakes. 30:37 “Have To, Or Else.” 31:31 Augustine [Fall of Western Rome] preceded John Calvin [Protestant Reformation], when it comes to predestination. 33:00 The Sun ☀️ impact 34:33 Augustine comes with his own philosophical system, meanwhile John Chrysostom followed the text, reading the original Greek language of the text. 35:40 God works in you to help you to respond to The Good. “Work Out Your Own Salvation With Fear and Trembling.” • God Gives • Man Responds • Harden like Sun Cooked Mud Brick 🧱 • Soften and melt like wax candle 🕯️ 37:53 Can someone accept Essence Energies while saying God is simple in a sense? Yes ✅ • The Burning 🔥 Bush 47:23 The Divine Glory ☦️ + The Transfiguration of Christ. Radiance. Visible Emblem of Eternal Divine Being. 49:20 Opening The Eyes To See The Uncreated Light Which Was Always There. ☦️

[@GospelSimplicity]

Very detailed - thanks!

[@ninasaabiyeh926]

I never knew that! That was very very helpful and interesting. Thanks.

[@mayorofbasedville7680]

It seems this young man has developed quite an interest in Eastern Orthodoxy. It’s an example of a pattern I’ve observed over the years. It seems that when someone makes a decision to really study church history, they often end up developing a real interest in Eastern Orthodoxy. It’s not uncommon for them to end up converting. Glory to God!

[@thatoneguysface1]

I loved this! So good to learn from such a knowledgeable, cordial, and competent man! I will say this though, not so much as a criticism but more as a clarification: the Greek word συνεργός (sunergos, fellow worker) appears 13 times in the NT and every time it refers to being a fellow worker either with the apostles or with God in the PREACHING of the gospel, never in our justification or regeneration.

[@GospelSimplicity]

Interesting!

[@isaiahkerstetter3142]

Another excellent interview.

[@warandpeace73]

Ironically, I studied Classics in college and I had a secular humanist Prof. Loved him dearly. One day in Greek class, the greek words for same and similar homoousis and ousis struck me and the trinity made sense to me anyway. the power and the spirt, well, I think they are interchangeable in Paul in many reagards. It's been 21 years ago, so forgive me, its off the top of my head. I just remember the Greek teacher looking at me, he liked me and we spent office hours together but he thought I was hopeless as a writer or thinker, hearing my idea and stood back from the board and said, my goodness, 'good catch'. Greek is a never ending study from plato to paul.

[@eastsidefellowship2511]

Another excellent interview. Really appreciate Dr. Bradshaw's knowledge and his manner. I believe the concept of essence-energies is not foreign to most Protestants although we don't use the term. We distinguish between God's revelation or manifestations of Himself and His actual essence or full glory. We also understand the concept of God "energizing" or empowering us through the indwelling Holy Spirit. Indeed the only way to please God is through Spirit-empowered behavior (Romans 8:1-17)

[@anaarkadievna]

Thank you for this kind of interviews, Austin!

[@GospelSimplicity]

My pleasure!

[@guscostakispaoadopoulos5749]

Unfortunately l accidentally hit the response button in the middle of my explanation. Nevertheless as an Orthodox l just want to say that it must be frustrating to constantly hear " when are you converting to Orthodoxy".Though l hope you do so it doesn't change the fact that you are such a decent, humble, extremely open minded individual who has such a comforting unpretentious demeanor; It obviously shows in how well you give an interview. If ever you can invite Father Stephen Freeman, l would love to hear both of you discuss the Essence, Energies Distinction as well.

[@panokostouros7609]

You're in for a treat

[@GospelSimplicity]

Hope everyone enjoys it!

[@alfredhitchcock45]

He has a very clear and lucid mind. The Thomistic friars on your show had a hard time elucidating their thoughts. For him it was easy.

[@SDFenix]

Very good interview. I just wished that you would have asked him two additional questions: first concerning the issue of translations, whether the reformers in the 16th century, who started to read and translate the original Greek, caught any of the nuances of the energia terms and whether it had any influence on them in their theology. The second question I would have loved to see would pertain to the issue of theosis, or deification. He indirectly talked about it when he mentioned the divine glory at the end. since the west doesn’t know about the divine energies, how can there be any true deification in the west? ‘Partaking of the nature’ as it is said in peters? The Catholics certainly believe in saints, but what does that mean in the larger scheme of things? How does the path to sainthood in the west differ from the one in the East?

[@j.g.4942]

I can say that the Lutheran reformers used the Early Church Fathers' terms and distinctions to combat the denial of Christ's glorified Body and Blood in the Eucharist; (Martin Chemnitz, two natures in Christ; also the article on the same topic in the formula of Concord which is available online). Still I'm pretty sure there is a difference in it's working out

[@symphonymph3562]

I'm calling it that the whole topic about "Essence-energies distinction VS Absolute divine simplicity" is Jay Dyer's forté, regardless of his manners. He has explained how the essence-energies distinction is absolutely crucial against Islamic arguments (he himself has debated the Shabir Ally) and ultimately in helping them to understand the correct doctrine of the Trinity. You might want to listen to it directly from him explaining here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/h4a6cqiDq9SYbMU

[@George-ur8ow]

Jay Dyer is excellent. This is a very good, albeit brief overview. For someone totally unfamiliar with the subject, this is good milk to have - with the hope to then grow and partake in more solid food

[@lilwaynesworld0]

And he has converted zero Muslims with this argument. It may be crucial for winning you tube arguments but it doesn't exactly convert the heart of a Muslim so excuse me if I think his claim is a bit of puffing himself up as Jay is want to do.

[@zachlehkyi9951]

@@lilwaynesworld0 can you prove that? In his debate with shabir ally, ally literally wasnt able to answer and didnt know how to go forward with the debate. Go listen/watch it. The only people who don't like Jay Dyer are people who lean more politically correct and try to judge his speech over the actual content

[@joseonwalking8666]

@@lilwaynesworld0 i know several who have so you'd be wrong

[@Motomack1042]

While how east and west express essence and energy differ, I do not hear anything different from what I understand the western Church teaches. Aquinas put it this way. Operating grace refers to God’s gracious work in a sinner, i.e. God’s gracious “operating.” Co-operating grace is the human effect of God’s operating, namely, the human will moving the person unto meritorious works. Operating grace always comes first, for all co-operating grace is the effect of God’s operating grace. A person is justified by operating grace, and subsequently consents with this operating grace as a result of such grace. Grace can refer to God’s moving of the human to will and to act, or it can refer to God’s bestowal of a habitual gift (the gift of a new disposition which then becomes the principle of meritorious works). Each of these graces can be thought of in terms of operating grace and also co-operating grace. First, with regard to God’s moving of the human to will and to act, “the operation of an effect is not attributed to the thing moved but to the mover”. Thus, since the human is moved but does not do the moving, this kind of grace is called operating grace, since God is the only one operating. However, this operating grace causes an effect in the human whereby by the human mind, after being moved, also moves (i.e. moves the other powers-i.e. the will begins to will the good, which moves the person to act exteriorly, etc.]. Thus there is an interior act of the will (ceasing to will evil and beginning to will the good) and also an exterior act subsequently commanded by the will. In these operations of the human (both interior and exterior) God strengthens the will interiorly “so as to attain the act” and also grants the outward capability of the exterior operation. Since the human will is also operating as the effect of God’s operating, this kind of grace is called co-operating grace. Augustine says: “He operates that we may will; and when we will, He co-operates that we may be perfect.”. Second, with regard to God’s bestowal of a habitual gift, “inasmuch as this gift heals and justifies the soul, or makes it pleasing to God, is called operating grace; but inasmuch as it is the principle of meritorious works, which spring from the free-will, it is called co-operating grace.” However, such free will and such works are the effect of God’s operating grace. “God does not justify us without ourselves,” as Augustine says: “He Who created thee without thyself, will not justify thee without thyself.” “Whilst we are being justified we consent to God’s justification (justitiae) by a movement of our free-will. Nevertheless this movement is not the cause of grace, but the effect; hence the whole operation pertains to grace.” “Operating and co-operating grace are the same grace” only “they are distinguished by their different effects.” Grace is Fittingly Divided into Prevenient and Subsequent Grace Grace refers to the temporal effect of God’s eternal love. Prevenient grace refers to grace that causes a subsequent effect, subsequent grace refers to this effect inasmuch as it is an effect of the prevenient grace. “God’s grace is the outcome of His mercy”. “There are five effects of grace in us:” to heal the soul to desire good to carry into effect the good proposed to persevere in good to reach glory “Grace, inasmuch as it causes the first effect in us, is called prevenient with respect to the second, and inasmuch as it causes the second, it is called subsequent with respect to the first effect.” Likewise, from #2 on, each grace can be considered both prevenient to the next and subsequent to the previous. While God’s love is eternal, grace refers to a temporal effect of this love. From what I understand the ideal of Co-operating with grace is something protestants have difficulty with, Calvin especially.

[@tessa7413]

I thought the same, that much of it sounded so familiar to what Catholics believe, except with slightly different terminology. When he talked about "cooperating with the energies," it sounded a lot like the Catholic belief of "cooperating with God's grace."

[@Motomack1042]

@@tessa7413 When reading Aquinas on Divine Simpilcity he is being echoed by Dr Bradshaw exactly. The Church (Catholic) has not always embraced everything the Fathers wrote, early Augustine is embraced, but his later works are some what sketchy, and not fully embraced by the Church, same with Origen. Calvin and the other reformers embraced Augustine's later works and such doctrines as irresistible grace and predestination of the elect (144,000) developed.

[@tessa7413]

@@Motomack1042 ok thanks for that clarification. Does it seem then that the E. Orthodox mistake common Protestant beliefs on this for the Catholic understanding?

[@Motomack1042]

@@tessa7413 It is difficult to say, there is a different approach to theology between the East and West due mainly to cultural differences as you can see by the language being used. What many seem to forget or are not aware of is during the middle ages part of every day life were the lively theological debates on wide range of topics, this means that many issues were floating around being discussed and debated as part of the development of doctrine. So while Augustine's thoughts had heavy influence ( and still do) until a shift to scholasticism that dominated in the west from the 12th to 18th century with Thomas Aquinas, something that did not have influence in the east. From what I see and understand Eastern Orthodoxy theology is underdeveloped in comparison, has not developed much since the 8th century. This is not to say the East does not have real and important teachings, their contributions are immeasurable.

[@yavorangelov1601]

@@Motomack1042 I think the waged objection and accusation from the Orthodox is more along the lines of Thomistic-Aristotelian metaphysics being incoherent. Because Aristotelian metaphysics lead to absolute Divine Simplicity, which do not allow for any distinction in God. God is His Power, His Love, His Existence, His Justice and so on. To cite Saint Basil the Great in his letter 234: "...To the same, in answer to another question. Do you worship what you know or what you do not know? If I answer, I worship what I know, they immediately reply, What is the essence of the object of worship? Then, if I confess that I am ignorant of the essence, they turn on me again and say, So you worship you know not what. I answer that the word to know has many meanings. We say that we know the greatness of God, His power, His wisdom, His goodness, His providence over us, and the justness of His judgment; but not His very essence. The question is, therefore, only put for the sake of dispute. For he who denies that he knows the essence does not confess himself to be ignorant of God, because our idea of God is gathered from all the attributes which I have enumerated. But God, he says, is simple, and whatever attribute of Him you have reckoned as knowable is of His essence. But the absurdities involved in this sophism are innumerable. When all these high attributes have been enumerated, are they all names of one essence? And is there the same mutual force in His awfulness and His loving-kindness, His justice and His creative power, His providence and His foreknowledge, and His bestowal of rewards and punishments, His majesty and His providence? In mentioning any one of these do we declare His essence? If they say, yes, let them not ask if we know the essence of God, but let them enquire of us whether we know God to be awful, or just, or merciful. These we confess that we know. If they say that essence is something distinct, let them not put us in the wrong on the score of simplicity. For they confess themselves that there is a distinction between the essence and each one of the attributes enumerated. The operations are various, and the essence simple, but we say that we know our God from His operations, but do not undertake to approach near to His essence. His operations come down to us, but His essence remains beyond our reach..." The Fathers argued for a clear distinction between God's Essence and His Operations/Energies. If God is His Grace, or His Power, then His Operations are Himself, so to be consistent with this notion we should say when we experience His Power - say, in the Sacraments, - then we experience His Essence, for His Essence is His Power and His Power is His Essence. If God is His Power, then you experiencing the Divine Power means you experience the Essence, for the Essence is identical to all God has, so it turns out God IS all He has, thus when you experience what He has(=His Energies), you experience what He is(=His Essence). The objection we raise is that Thomistic metaphysics are incoherent and you cannot be at the same time an Aristotelian and follow the Fathers, because the very categories of "actuality and potentiality" are reduced, according to Aristotelian causation, to a logically necessary Actus Purus, which means absolute Divine Simplicity: a being that has no potential, but is an actual energy that is identical to itself. But the Fathers and the traditional dogma is that God freely chose to create: He had the potential to and He could choose to create or not to. That He has at His disposal many things to do, and He isn't at the same time everything He can be(for example, God COULD be a Creator and CHOSE TO BE a Creator). If one confess to that notion of Creation, then God's Power must be distinct from His Essence. Another objection is that Actus Purus leads to predetermined God, who is predetermined to do all He does, since "not doing X or doing X" is potential and having such a choice is a potentiality, but how can He have potentiality, since He is Actus Purus? So, yeah, Western Christian theologians do teach at points a distinction between God's Essence and Energy, yet then they also espouse the Aristotelian Actus Purus, which makes such a distinction impossible, hence we say this is incoherent and you choose to either abide by Christian doctrine and dogma as defined by the Fathers, or by Aristotelian doctrine and dogma, but not both. God cannot be Actus Purus and be the Christian God at the same time, because Actus Purus precludes what the Fathers taught. This is why

[@dreamsideout7831]

This is a really good subject. I would like to hear a discussion about essence/energies between an Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant scholar.

[@GospelSimplicity]

That would be interesting!

[@strugglingathome]

“Start reading the Greek Fathers.” Wish I’d taken his counsel 5 yrs ago. 😜

[@GospelSimplicity]

Hindsight is 20/20 as they say

[@icixie]

Never 2 late

[@VigiLogic]

Prof. Bradshaw, he loves God, he knows God...it is palpable.

[@ciaranmurphy6618]

Awesome video!

[@GospelSimplicity]

Thanks!

[@trupela]

Thanks for having this conversation. I learned a lot. The way I’ve tried to make sense of this is to ponder the phrase, ‘The Life of God’. It’s a description of what we are taken up into as we participate with/in God in each moment. For me, God must be really present in each moment, and God is truly alive. Every moment is the gift of God’s very life. I often wonder if we’re better off using ‘life of God’ language in place of ‘Kingdom of God’ language.

[@GospelSimplicity]

My pleasure!

[@erykpatrykchudy5675]

Can't wait. ❤

[@GospelSimplicity]

Hope you enjoy it!

[@otelders]

Thank you for this!

[@GospelSimplicity]

My pleasure!

[@TheDonovanMcCormick]

Dr. Bradshaw does great work. Aristotle East and West. Thanks for the upload GS.

[@kellysuggs2424]

I just watched this on Patreon and it is fascinating!!

[@GospelSimplicity]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@aeternusromanus]

This was excellent. Glory to God.

[@guscostakispaoadopoulos5749]

First l want to say again that you are truly a very humble and outstanding interviewer. It would be great if you can reach out to Father Stephen Freeman who translates the essence, energies distinction in much the same manner as Dr Bradshaw. The former really makes it clear on how Palamas showed how we can really know and feel God I'm a more personal way and o

[@englishorthodoxchants9782]

There are Orthodox christians in the comments who use some words incorrectly and they end up contradicting themselves.

[@dimitrispeiraias]

Why do you avoid addressing them?

[@arcticbalance8704]

Meanwhile making a complete empty statement yourself...why don’t you enlighten us some more with your wise words

[@zachlehkyi9951]

Good grief grow some figs man I can smell the soy from here

[@PastorScottIngram]

Where could I find a list of all the references to the Greek word for energy in the New Testament? I greatly enjoyed this discussion and appreciate you highlighting the topic. I will be looking into Dr. David Bradshaw's work further.

[@GospelSimplicity]

It is strong's concordance #1753. You could use Bible Hub, Study Light, or several other free online tools to check it out!

[@ΓραικοςΕλληνας]

Eνεργεια ενεργηματα ενεργούντος ενεργων etc some verses col 1:29 phil 3:21 ephes.1:19ephes.3:7 3:20.1 cor.12:6.phil.2:13 col.2:12 etc

[@LadderOfDescent]

As an Orthodox convert from Calvinism, I can confirm that absolute divine simplicity creates unbelievable damage. It is wild that such a small nuance makes that much of an impact.

[@dmitri1483]

I just noticed the “The Good Shepherd” icon behind you, God bless!

[@GospelSimplicity]

Good eye!

[@terrytzaneros8007]

CRUCIAL and timely! Thanks. So few of us, Orthodox, not least, know precious little re the Essence-Energies synergy distinction.

[@GospelSimplicity]

Hopefully this was helpful!

[@terrytzaneros8007]

@@GospelSimplicity : thanks for showcasing the Faith in all her diversity.

[@cuthbertsboots5733]

You should definitely have on Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick and Fr. Stephen De Young, preferably at the same time. They're a blast, and Fr. Stephen is a biblical scholar and a genius.

[@GospelSimplicity]

I'd love to! I reached out to Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick but never heard back. I'll have to try again some time

[@maryemilysmiley6146]

Another good presentation, Austin. I was somewhat confused as to Dr. Bradley's position. Was he expounding teachings of the Orthodox Church or his observations? As to the energy/synergy he spoke of in St. Paul's teaching the first thing that popped into my head was grace both sanctifying and actual. Sanctifying is the grace we experience in friendship with God, i.e. we haven't breached that friendship with mortal sin. Actual grace is what one may call industrial strength through the sacraments -7 in Catholicism. Confession heals us by putting us back in friendship with God. Faith and reason incorporate of course our ability to understand God through philosophy, especially Aristotelian and faith our understanding of God through his revelation to us through the Jewish prophets and of course His ultimate revelation through Jesus, true God and true man. As to Augustine the Catholic Church edited his position on predestination which it never accepted. Origin's position on universal salvation was rejected as was Tertullian's acceptance of Marcionism. Yes, God has no moving parts otherwise He would not be God. His omniscience does not preclude our free will otherwise we would be of the beasts and not made in the image and likeness of God, that is w an intellect of course with all the attendant limitations. Thanks again for your work. I'll give you a mystery and that is how you do all this work on interviews and your studies. I submit it has to be your youth. God bless you.

[@maryemilysmiley6146]

Can't make the edit as I can't roll the text. Correction: should read Montanism not Marcionism. Life of a Luddite. Sorry.

[@maryemilysmiley6146]

@Ioannis Grivas Thank you. Since I am basically operating out of the theology of my Baltimore Catechism of my youth of 65+ years ago I can get way over my pay grade in these presentations. So I think it's an emanated energy not a created one if I understood. Thank you so much. I have no idea of Orthodox teaching other than the schism of 1064 and the ongoing dispute over the Papacy. As Pope John Paul II said the east and west are the two lungs of the church. Again, thank you for helping me in such clear terms.

[@danglingondivineladders3994]

Looking forward to this. Thanks GS

[@GospelSimplicity]

My pleasure!

[@e.a.c.2175]

How can Christian growth occur without Synergy? How can true love conquer all without our consent? Did not Mary say, "Thy will be done"? I feel like cynicism and defeat and bitterness dwell in the soul without an foundational understanding of synergy and theosis. Indeed, what a sorrowful presupposition (predeterminism). Lord have mercy.

[@xpictos777]

Calvnists, the ultimate proponents of cosmic rape.

[@e.a.c.2175]

That's so profoundly heartbreaking to ponder...

[@vaska1999]

Did Mary act from "a foundational understanding of synergy and theosis"? Was it her understanding (of theological points the Christian church would develop centuries later) what enabled her to give her consent to God, to be a willing co-creator?

[@1stdebunker]

Fantastic Interview

[@01ombladon]

O yes, a real hard hitter! Thank you Austin

[@GospelSimplicity]

Hope you enjoy it!

[@dynamic9016]

Very insightful video.

[@alexandros0828]

Thank you for doing this interview, cant wait! Its a big and complex topic in some ways, but the practical and everyday implications of the Thomistic or Orthodox view is beyond words "...by taking away the divine energy and by fusing it with the essence by saying that the activity does not differ from that essence, they have made God an essence without activity. And not only that, but they have also completely annihilated Gods being itself and they have become atheists....For we know that God is only from His proper activities." -St Gregory Palamas

[@GospelSimplicity]

My pleasure!

[@johnnyd2383]

Well.. understanding of the distinction enables us to understand separation of the unreachable essence of God from His Energies with which He illuminates His creation, making them available to us. Via His Energies we have potential to become gods by Grace (Ps 82,6). Via His Energies He deifies us. Via His Energies we can partake in divine nature (2 Pet 1,4).

[@GospelSimplicity]

Well said!

[@e.a.c.2175]

Also, would you ever considered publishing in podcast form as well to offer more listening versatility? Thanks for all that you do! God bless you!

[@GospelSimplicity]

I have a podcast!

[@e.a.c.2175]

Fantastic! Found

[@colmwhateveryoulike3240]

That was brilliant!

[@GospelSimplicity]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@georgiosdretakis]

Hi , can you make a presentation of the "production" and the activity of the trinity according to the orthodox and the catholic doctrin , comparatively?

[@billyhw5492]

Divine Simplicity is the reason my dog died, and also why I'm constipated right now.

[@raydudo3672]

As always, fantastic interview and questions Austin! Throughout the interview, I felt like Austin was taking the questions right out of my mouth. As a Catholic I’m still struggling to see the distinction between Orthodox and Catholic theology on this point. As Dr. Bradshaw kind of concedes at 38:55 , all Christians who hold an orthodox faith (lower case o) believe in simplicity. It’s just a matter of verbalizing the philosophy of the three Persons in relation to the one God that we disagree-but it seems the theology is the same. And if we are just disagreeing about terminology, then I think this a non-issue. As Dr. Bradshaw points out, Orthodox Christians believe that some of God is “beyond knowing,” and our verbalization of the relation of the Trinity could fall into that category.

[@GospelSimplicity]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@cjgumbert]

The Council of Trent dogmatized Thomistic Absolute Divine Simplicity. This is incompatible with the Essence-Energies Distinction.

[@Motomack1042]

@@cjgumbert wrong never made dogma, The Roman Catholic Church distinguishes between doctrine, which is single and must be accepted by Roman Catholics, and theological elaborations of doctrine, about which Catholics may legitimately disagree. With respect to the Eastern and Western theological traditions, the Catholic Church recognizes that, at times, one tradition may "come nearer to a full appreciation of some aspects of a mystery of revelation than the other, or [express] it to better advantage." In these situations, the Church views the various theological expressions "often as mutually complementary rather than conflicting."[33] According to Meyendorff, from Palamas's time until the twentieth century, Roman Catholic theologians[who?] generally rejected the idea that there is in God a real essence-energies distinction. In their view, a real distinction between the essence and the energies of God contradicted the teaching of the First Council of Nicaea[34] on divine unity.[12] Catholic theologian Ludwig Ott held that an absence of real distinction between the attributes of God and God's essence is a dogma of the Catholic Church.[35][36] In contrast, Jürgen Kuhlmann argues that the Roman Catholic Church never judged Palamism to be heretical, adding that Palamas did not consider that the distinction between essence and energies in God made God composite.[30] According to Kuhlmann, "the denial of a real distinction between essence and energies is not an article of Catholic faith".[37] According to Meyendorff, the later twentieth century saw a change in the attitude of Roman Catholic theologians to Palamas, a "rehabilitation" of him that has led to increasing parts of the Western Church considering him a saint, even if uncanonized.[34] Some Western scholars maintain that there is no conflict between the teaching of Palamas and Roman Catholic thought on the distinction.[30] According to G. Philips, the essence-energies distinction of Palamas is "a typical example of a perfectly admissible theological pluralism" that is compatible with the Roman Catholic magisterium.[30] Jeffrey D. Finch claims that "the future of East-West rapprochement appears to be overcoming the modern polemics of neo-scholasticism and neo-Palamism".[30] Some Western theologians have incorporated the essence-energies distinction into their own thinking. Pretty much no difference at all today.

[@ΓραικοςΕλληνας]

@@Motomack1042 what you said about the Catholic belief as a methodology they use for the dogma is seen as heresy in the orthodox church .in catholism there can be scholls of Philosophical methodologies on theology that one that does not agree to the other. That at first of all is seen as a heresy in orthodox church theology. In orthodox church there is one belief on dogma not different schools of thoughts

[@ΓραικοςΕλληνας]

@@Motomack1042 there is no such thing in orthodox church theology such as old or new palamism. In the orthodox church the says of Gregory Palamas about the Reall idivisible distinction between essence energies is the orthodox church theology nothing different.

[@claymcdermott718]

27:20 I don't know if Dr Bradshaw makes enough of Augustine's distinctions about prevenient grace here. God is always the Lover and we the beloved, but His saving grace can be a response to His gift of prevenient grace in which we cooperate, while at the same time not be based on us considered independent from Him

[@hjc1402]

Wait. 26:30 In arguing against that Gods will is his essence, isn’t he completely undermining the capadocian fathers and others who make this exact argument- that the will is part of one’s essence- in order to argue for the doctrine of the Trinity and the incarnation, and argue against such heresies as monothelitism, nestorianism, and Apollinarianism?

[@panokostouros7609]

No, the Will is an Essential faculty, just like energy, yet it is distinct from the Essence.

[@deathwater1012]

I find it weird how people can have their Christianity completely upgraded by Orthodoxy not convert. It’s like those blind men who were healed and only one of them turned to thank Jesus.

[@DaFooling]

While I was inquiring I thought I could do this. Then my now priest gave a homily on that very passage, needless to say I became a catechumen on that day.

[@hunivan7672]

Whats the point of converting? A christian is still a christian and he still worships Christ, Orthodoxy simply improved their faith, not replaced it.

[@deathwater1012]

@@hunivan7672 Christianity is the original faith. Not the weird doctrines and ideas invented (or omitted) in the second millennium. One faith. Unchanging. There’s a reason the later sects have nothing to contribute to Orthodoxy in terms of understanding. Christianity is what Christ started, not what we want to think it is or something that developed later or altered itself.

[@George-ur8ow]

@@hunivan7672 Orthodoxy did not "improve the faith", it is the faith of the apostles. Why convert? For one, it's correct & unchanging theology, it not being swayed to and fro with every wind of doctrine. The source of the river is always cleaner.

[@joshf2218]

Often times the only Orthodox churches around are Eastern European social clubs, not churches. This is the biggest weakness of the Eastern church as it exists in the west.

[@alfredhitchcock45]

Divine Glory - Transfiguration of Christ

[@alfredhitchcock45]

Great explanatory power

[@JohnVandivier]

good job amigo. nice convo/topic.

[@GospelSimplicity]

Thanks!

[@ananonymousoyster365]

You probably won’t see this comment, but I’d love if you could have Fr. Ananias Sorem on to discuss An Orthodox Theory of knowledge.

[@mikklecash6046]

Catholics hold that predestination and free will are NOT opposed. The Catechism says (no 600): "To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of "predestination", he includes in it each person's free response to his grace: " About our cooperation in our salvation, the Catechism says (no 306): "But to carry it out he also makes use of his creatures' co-operation. This use is not a sign of weakness, but rather a token of almighty God's greatness and goodness. For God grants his creatures not only their existence, but also the dignity of acting on their own, of being causes and principles for each other, and thus of co-operating in the accomplishment of his plan." Augustine held that faith was entirely a gift from God, and I think we say the same. But we would probably think today that in some way (a mystery to us) He offers the gift to every single human being, and they have the opportunity to accept or reject it. Augustine did not believe in predestination for salvation - he thought you could have received real faith and still lose eternal life by your own free evil actions (non-cooperation).

[@GospelSimplicity]

I'm not sure if he's necessarily saying that Catholics are monergists, but rather that their views of Divine Simplicity should entail monergism for sake of consistency

[@mikklecash6046]

@@GospelSimplicity He says that the implication ….is that God’s will is fixed from his own side, without any interaction or response to what creatures do. So he believes it rules out synergy (cooperation). But I think it's adequately answered in the quote from the catechism: "To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of "predestination", he includes in it each person's free response to his grace: " So our free responses (our cooperation) matter. I will draw an implication from his implication - he may be imagining that God's act of creation involves somehow waiting to see what his creatures do so he can respond with grace, or withhold it. But on our understanding of God, he is never waiting (except metaphorically), and he "sees" the beginning, middle and end of everything simultaneously and without any interruption. Incidently, when I looked up monergism/synergism the terms seemed to be more prominent in intra-protestant debates. I found an essay by a John Hendryx which said early on: "Monergism and synergism are terms that may or may not be familiar to you but are of immense importance to evangelicals if we hope to maintain fidelity to the Scriptures." I suppose it might be related to the more common debate about "faith alone" versus "faith plus works".

[@HerotPM]

If there are any Eastern Rite Catholics in this thread, I would be interested if these things are still held by those in full communion with Rome or not. I find the concepts fascinating and would love some further research material for my personal studies. From what I'm understanding, this seems perfectly compatible with the Catholic faith, but maybe I'm missing something.

[@cjgumbert]

The Roman Catholic Church dogmatized Absolute Divine Simplicity at Trent. ADS and E/E doesn't mix very well, just as other parts of Eastern Catholicism don't mix well with Roman Catholicism. For example, Eastern Catholics for centuries had divorce/remarriage practices identical to the Orthodox while the RCC was saying that divorce is impossible (hence the annulment system). Eastern Catholics venerate post-schism saints like St. Gregory Palamas (Palamas Sunday is the 2nd Sunday in Lent on the Byzantine Catholic calendar), but St. Gregory Palamas taught that the Filioque (and other Roman Catholic teachings) were heretical and even Satanic. There are many other things that can be listed here, but suffice it to say that Eastern Catholicism sort of disproves Roman Catholicism in many ways.

[@HerotPM]

I wouldn't say it disproved it. The divorce practices are not allowed under Eastern Catholic Churches. And while Eastern Schismatic saints are allowed to be venerated in Eastern Catholic liturgies, they are not infallibly saints as those who are approved by the pope are. The Eastern Saints like that are considered much less certain. I did some research and what I'm finding is that Palamism is not condemned by the Catholic Church. There are apparently many Theologians that hold to it and there has been something if a rehabilitation of it in western thought in recent decades. It's apparently never been condemned, it just fell out of popularity.

[@cjgumbert]

@@HerotPM Divorce & remarriage was allowed by Eastern Catholics until 1917 when Roman and Eastern Catholic canon law was revised to make it no longer allowed. That being said, that means that for a few centuries there were diverging practices/theologies. In any case, divorce and remarriage was allowed under the canons of St. Basil the Great, which were accepted as canonical at the Council of Trullo and also at the 2nd Council of Nicaea (an ecumenical council). These canons still form the basis of Orthodox canon law on this issue today. Do you believe Auctorem Fidei which says that the Church cannot give defective rites? Venerating and celebrating the life and theology of a man who passionately and publicly taught that your creed is heretical and Satanic would seem defective to me. This is just one example from the Byzantine Catholics. The Chaldean Catholics actually venerate Nestorian heretics. Palamism might not be explicitly refuted by the RCC magisterium, but it's completely incompatible with the Thomistic notion of Absolute Divine Simplicity which is official RC dogma. The RCC has abandoned many of the apostolic traditions and teachings. It's not so much a case of "falling out of popularity" as much as it is a direct abandonment and change of Apostolic tradition. Your practices on baptism, the way you cross yourself, not giving communion to infants, only giving communion under one species after Trent, your loss of the notion of theosis, you abandonment of traditional fasting practices (even for monastics), the list can go on. There are many explicitly contradictory teachings that are supposedly "infallible" under the RC system, but one good example of where you've abandoned the apostolic tradition is your abandonment of Mortalium Animos. Mortalium Animos, an encylical written by Pope Pius XI in the 1920s, echos the Apostolic canons and the longstanding tradition of the Orthodox Church that to pray with heretics, schismatics, and non-Christians is tantamount to apostasy. This undoubtedly constitutes the ordinary universal magisterium of the RCC, and is therefore infallible according to Vatican I. At Vatican II, however, this was all reversed, and inter-faith prayer and worship is now "encouraged" while most post Vatican II popes even go to mosques and pray towards Mecca with Muslims.

[@HerotPM]

@Cornelius VE, you bring up some interesting points that are worthwhile for people to look into. For my own health, I try very hard not to get into debates in comment sections, so I will refrain from responding. I quit social media for that reason just because these debates can really drag you in and drain time and I unfortunately don't have the time to respond like I'd like while being responsible in my other obligations, that and I tend to become uncharitable and want to avoid the sin. I will say that I don't personally find the arguments you've made convincing. I did look heavily into both Eastern Christianity and the Catholic faith before converting from Protestantism and so I'm familiar with the reasons why someone would choose the Eastern faith instead. I say better that than Protestantism because at least you have valid sacraments, but I was more convinced by the Catholic side. But you definitely bring up interesting points that I have considered already on my own journey and I think worth considering for others on theirs as well. I'll let you have the last word if you care to respond. Don't take this as passive aggressive, I just don't have the fortitude to get into debates on comment sections without sinning and wasting way too much time, so for charity's sake and for the sake of my other commitments I try to refrain. As a final word from my part, I will repeat my original inquiry and say that I would love to hear what any Eastern Rite Catholics have to say on this matter.

[@cjgumbert]

@@HerotPM I understand that it is very difficult psychologically and spiritually to be a Roman Catholic today under Pope Francis, so I also understand not wanting to add to that stress. Lumen Gentium 25 of the Second Vatican Council teaches that Roman Catholics must give religious assent of the mind and will to even the non-infallible teachings of the Roman Pontiff, so I can't imagine the many spiritually harmful mental gymnastics involved with trying to keep that together with Francis teaching the gospel of homosexual civil unions, changing the catechism on the death penalty, encouraging inter-religious prayer with Muslims (even now building in the UAE an "Abrahamic Shrine" for joint worship between Muslims, Jews, and Roman Catholics), among many other innovations. Vatican I is historically untenable on many levels (there are a few glaring instances of popes teaching heresy and being judged by other bishops/saints and even by ecumenical councils as heretics), but I think most Roman Catholics couldn't feel that history until they actually had to viscerally live through recurrences of it today with Francis. Good luck to you and God bless you; I know it's a very difficult position you're now in.

[@protestanttoorthodox3625]

Glory to God

[@alexs8335]

Excellent interview. For those who wants to know more about the essence-energies teaching I recommend a podcast from the Ancient Faith Ministries called "Clark Carlton on the Essence and Energies of God."

[@GospelSimplicity]

Thanks!

[@alexs8335]

@@GospelSimplicity, you are welcome!

[@mikklecash6046]

Dr Bradshaw talks about how Augustine discussed what was seen at the transfiguration or in the tongues of fire at Pentecost, and he thought the things seen were created things. (because you can't see the uncreated God with human eyes). If I understood correctly, the orthodox hold that what was seen was the divine energies. But isn't this a case of Augustine asking how, and the orthodox asking what? Or if you have a sudden perception of God's glory while looking at a rose or at a sunset, does this mean that you are really no longer seeing the rose or the sunset (the created thing).

[@vaska1999]

Augustine, too, was speaking of what (and not of how). Your analogy with created things (a rose, a sunset) cannot hold for obvious reasons: the uncreated light remains uncreated light, etc. In Christ, the uncreated and the created become one. In your vision of God, the rose is the created vehicle by which, thanks to grace (God's action in your life, God's gracious willingness to reveal His glory to you) you found access to God.