Does Church History Lead to Catholicism? (Joe Heschmeyer & Dr. Gavin Ortlund)

Whose side is church history on? Can you be deep in history and remain a Protestant? In this lively discussion, Dr. Gavin Ortlund (Ph.D. in Historical Theology from Fuller Theological Seminary) and Joe Heschmeyer (author of Pope Peter) square off on this important topic. Questions ranged from, "why does church history matter?" to the nature of the church, the papacy, and the church fathers.
Dr. Gavin Ortlund:
www.gavinortlund.com
Joe Heschmeyer:
www.shamelesspopery.com
The Cordial Catholic:
podcast.thecordialcatholic.com/
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About Gospel Simplicity:
Gospel Simplicity began as a KZbin channel in a Moody Bible Institute dorm. It was born out of the central conviction that the gospel is really good news, and I wanted to share that with as many people as possible. The channel has grown and changed over time, but that central conviction has never changed. Today, we make content around biblical and theological topics, often interacting with people from across the Christian tradition with the hope of seeking greater unity and introducing people to the beautiful simplicity and transformative power of the gospel, the good news about Jesus.
About the host:
Hey! My name is Austin, and I'm a 22 year old guy who’s passionate about the beautiful simplicity and transformative power of the gospel. I believe that the gospel, the good news about Jesus, is really good news, and I’m out to explore, unpack, and share that good news with as many people as possible. I'm a full blown Bible and Church History nerd that loves getting to dialogue with others about this, learning as much as I can, and then teaching whatever I can. I grew up around Frederick, MD where I eventually ended up working my first job at a church. They made the mistake of letting me try my hand at teaching, and instantly I fell in love. That set me on a path for further education, and I'm currently a student at Moody Bible Institute in Chicago, IL, studying theology. On any given day you can find me with my nose in a book or a guitar in my hands. Want to get to know me more? Follow me and say hi on Instagram at: @austin.suggs
Send Me Books or Other Things if You’d like:
Austin Suggs
820 N. La Salle Dr.
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Video Stuff:
Camera: Canon 80d
Lens: Sigma 17-50 F2.8
Edited in FCPX
Music:
Bowmans Root - Isaac Joel

[@Dddezzz]

I think a conversation between Dr. Ortlund and Steve Ray would be fascinating since Steve Ray is a Catholic convert from the Baptist tradition

[@GospelSimplicity]

I'd love to have Steve Ray on the channel!

[@enniomojica7812]

@@GospelSimplicity can you get it done 😊

[@2555Edu]

Dr. Gavin is a breath of fresh air, usually protestants that "study history" don't study history at all, they continue with their misconceptions in history, theology and philosophy, as a catholic myself I gotta say, Dr. Gavin is different, may more protestants be like him

[@GospelSimplicity]

Dr. Ortlund is fantastic

[@Adam-ue2ig]

In my experience it's the average lay Catholic that barely studies either the bible or church history.

[@HannahClapham]

@Eduardo Rezende Most Protestants, including seminarians, don’t delve deeply into history. But the same can be said of Catholics. Even our popular apologists often have comparatively little background in history (and a lot of grounding in dogmatics and a partisan philosophy/worldview). Both sides cherry pick like crazy. Both come to wholly unsupported and unsupportable conclusions.

[@Volleyball_Chess_and_Geoguessr]

Let's be honest. Catholics don't study anything. But they do share out of context quotes of Church Fathers that they're convinced prove Catholicism but doesn't because they don't read it either. At least protestants read the bible.

[@wojo9732]

While everyone is focused on church history and who has the correct answers, i focus on Christ.

[@actsapologist1991]

The winner shall be determined by whoever has the most books in background. Bonus points if the shelves are mahogany.

[@GospelSimplicity]

Ha! I must say, I fear for Joe then...

[@agihernandez7846]

That was hilarious 👍👍😄

[@TheCordialCatholic]

Gavin wins. The rest of us are not worthy!

[@MouseCheese2010]

Michael Lofton has entered the chat... in a qualified sense. 😜

[@victoriaaltun7425]

@@MouseCheese2010 yes lol

[@saintmosesmedia9547]

As an Orthodox Christian who converted to orthodoxy from Catholicism, who converted to Catholicism from Protestantism, who now is considering coming back to Catholicism- your Chanel is a huge blessing to me right now.

[@sleepyeye4951]

Wow what a journey you are riding brother

[@masonthompson3284]

Talk about full circle! God bless.

[@GospelSimplicity]

I'm so glad that the channel is helpful to you!

[@jesseausthof9121]

@C oh man... Pope Patchamama has quite a ring to it lol

[@borrowedtruths6955]

Do you know who "they" are? kzbin.info/www/bejne/o5mmnpWKhcmEaZY

[@michaelbaumert4501]

I’m around the 1:19:00 mark and a key presupposition that is going unrecognized in this discussion is how fundamentally incarnational do you recognize Christianity to be? After 20 years raised as a Catholic and then 20 years spent thereafter as a Protestant (and now a Catholic revert), probably the most distinctive aspect between Catholic and Protestant understanding of ecclesial structure, dogmatics, liturgy, sacramental theology, worship, etc. is the level to which you accept a baseline necessity of an incarnational ontology for Christianity. Put another way, just how “physical” is Christianity created to be? I have realized a treasure trove of Church history, insight of the patristics and saints through the ages, beauty in liturgy, partaking in the Eucharist and a sense of homecoming all over the world in any Catholic parish, but the most fundamental change that I completely unexpected (but has been the most inspiring) is the physicality of all Christian worship as truly a fulfillment of OT Jewish temple worship. The spaces, smells, tastes, oils, elements, statues, icons, kneeling, crossing, prostrating, Eucharistic adoration, prayer ropes and rosary, prayer cards... I am convinced that the Incarnation was not just an event showing how salvation history came to a head, but also a profound insight into just how physical WE are as created beings. In short, I’ve come to love that Christianity is not only mystical, emotional and intellectual, it is deeply and inescapably physical. Thanks to all participants for this great discussion!

[@GospelSimplicity]

That's an interesting point!

[@ericclark2158]

So well said! I’m a Catholic convert from Presbyterianism and while my wife isn’t on the same page, after a couple years looking closely at the Catholic world, she acknowledges and appreciates precisely that physicality you’re pointing at.

[@jwright7948]

This has been on my mind a lot lately. You put it perfectly into words something that has been nagging at me in my Protestant walk.

[@isaachess19]

This is an underrated reply. Thanks for that insight.

[@j.g.4942]

Yes and Amen! It's the heart of the church, not just the intellectual, spiritual and physical, but the New Creation in Christ; to participate in the wonder of His peace and joy, forgiveness and life ... It's the treasure that sustains me in this world. The beauty of the absolution throws out my inclinations toward nilhism, and Christ's Body and Blood strengthen His Baptismal promises. The Incarnation is for me the beautiful centre and foundation of my faith. Which is why I long for the common union Christ prayed for, and mourn the schisms between our traditions. The talking past and the difference of language translation, if I dwell on the the communication breakdown, drives me insane. I just hope my synod will shake off the last remnants of the pietist dominance, stop looking to bapto-costals for advice and recover our so-called lutheran heritage, particularly the lazer focus on Christ's incarnation for us. These really are great conversations, love the 'cordiality' of all four. Thank God, Austin and Keith for the opportunity to listen.

[@Anna_Marie_Music]

Wow, Austen, I can't believe you're only in your early 20s and you're out here moderating such big convos such as these!! Every time I come back to your channel, I'm always so impressed. Keep up the good work!

[@GospelSimplicity]

Thanks Anna!

[@TheCordialCatholic]

Please don’t remind us of Austin’s vitality!

[@wessbess]

It’s clear that a lot of people who are baptized as children were never regenerated. They never followed Christ. Many of them left the church. you know this is true and all churches. True baptism is baptism of the Holy Spirit I Corinthians 12:13. This happens through faith and trust in Christ.

[@hirehammer925]

Mark 1:8; Luke 3:16; Galatians 3:2

[@danim2897]

Awesome conversation. I’m Catholic and accept and are convinced in the validity and authority of the church and accept all of its dogmas. Although I do not agree with Protestantism, the guest’s explanations of his beliefs helped me understand their stance.

[@GospelSimplicity]

Glad to hear that!

[@evavanvollenhoven1782]

May the Holy Spirit reveal the truth to all men of good will 🙂

[@GospelSimplicity]

Amen

[@DF_UniatePapist]

Amen!

[@mimi_j]

Amen!

[@amsa3245]

All Christians have rights to practice as they choose.

[@amsa3245]

Constanine's liturgy is how its sung in Orthodox Churches.

[@jwright7948]

I so appreciated this dialogue! I ordered so many of the books recommended on this channel to read myself, but with 6 children to care for and a farm to help work, reading time is extremely limited. Listening to these authors while folding the laundry and getting to learn from both faith traditions is such a blessing. Thank you to all. I hope they all come back again.

[@Volleyball_Chess_and_Geoguessr]

If you don't have much time, better cut right to the chase and read the bible

[@fellow_servant_jamesk8303]

@@Volleyball_Chess_and_Geoguessr I would second this statement Romans, while simultaneously being quite thankful for this medium of learning while I do yard work, or house chores.

[@Volleyball_Chess_and_Geoguessr]

@@fellow_servant_jamesk8303 There's definitely a time and place for lots of things.

[@mikkis668]

This was amazing. Thank you to the four of you. For me personally, this was a healing experience 🙏. And I think the polite and humble way to argument and disagree, was a hugh testimony... (Imagine if Rep. and Dem. Politicians discussed like this) More of this. God bless you all

[@GospelSimplicity]

So glad you enjoyed it Mikki!

[@James-303CO]

Quote from St Ignatius of Antioch. "Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2-7:1 [A.D. 110]).

[@davidliu7967]

Tell me you don’t know what Reformed believe about real presence without saying you don’t know. P.S. I hope you brush up on the gospel, it’s been massively distorted

[@agihernandez7846]

That was fabulous interview, thanks Austin and Keith for the time putting this together. Praise and glory to Jesus

[@GospelSimplicity]

It was our pleasure!

[@joshuabooth997]

I am so looking forward to this video! Thank you Austin for everything you do and the time you take to make these. You’re the man!! 👍👍

[@GospelSimplicity]

It's my pleasure!

[@fr.petertowsley1633]

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you men for the charity, clarity and humility to ask very difficult questions with respect and candor.

[@GospelSimplicity]

Glad you enjoyed it Fr. Peter!

[@Matt_M516]

That was brilliant! Thank you everyone. Look forward to the next one! 🙂

[@GospelSimplicity]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@shannonrouston3298]

Gosh I respect both of these men so much!! Thank y’all so much for putting this together!!

[@GospelSimplicity]

It was our pleasure!

[@CatholicReCon]

Exceptional discussion. Well done, all. What a breath of fresh air. These types of chats are so productive.

[@GospelSimplicity]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@mikepotter1291]

The content and thoughtfulness of both of these gentlemen is refreshing and very educational! Thank you so much!

[@brianback6136]

Gavin & Joe were awesome! Absolutely loved this and look forward to future dialog!!

[@GospelSimplicity]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@OstKatholik]

Just watched in on Patreon - awesome video! Really enjoyed it. Become a Patreon guys, you will not regret it! Keep up the good work, Austin.

[@GospelSimplicity]

I'm so glad you enjoyed it! Thanks for your support Yousif!

[@ColleenB10]

If you aren’t a Patreon, now is the time! This was SO good! They said they plan to do more in the future! This was SO good!

[@GospelSimplicity]

Thanks Colleen!

[@awm9290]

This is the best version of the conversation my wife and I have about once a month. If either of us were this smart I think one of us would have given in at this point. I need to hit the books. This is how ecumenical dialogue should always go.

[@GospelSimplicity]

I'm glad you enjoyed it!

[@p.doetsch6209]

The answer won't be entirely found in dialogue. Only the Holy Spirit can let the scales fall from the eyes to reveal the truth. Unless someone is asking for that revelation of the truth first, they won't be open to receive it from anyone, including the Holy Spirit.

[@JimCvit]

This was great. I’d love to see these guys back. I like this format because it’s more conversational than debate. I’ve seen some debates where one side was just do obstinate that it was like they couldn’t even bear to listen to the other. You guys do good work. To tag on to something that Gavin said, daily and not than once a day, I pray for unity again amongst the denominations. And I’m Catholic.

[@GospelSimplicity]

So glad you enjoyed it!

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

I see your comment is older, but I just want to heartily support it. I pray for unity and strive for it when engaging w/ Catholics. It can be a challenge w/ our doctrinal and ultimate authority differences, but our unity is always in Christ. He knew we would struggle w/ this, that's why there's so many reminders in scripture.

[@josephgoemans6948]

When Dr. Ortlund says that a 90/10 split will be more convincing than a 60/40. By that logic, we should all be Arian. In that case, the 10 beat the 90.

[@GospelSimplicity]

Interesting point

[@HannahClapham]

@joseph goemans I think you’ve hit the nail on the head here. Orthodoxy has never been something we put to majority vote. Athanasius is lionized by Catholics for being “contra mundum.” For taking the struggle into exile. For opposing the established, visible church hierarchy. St. Francis did so. Joan of Arc did so. Catherine of Siena helped heal the Great Schism by going to the Pope and opposing him to his face. It may have been 99/1 against Luther at first, but now it’s something closer to 65/35 (Catholic to Protestant). Truth is truth because you can show it to be so. Not because it is backed by authority or consensus. (Thomas Howard, a Catholic convert from Evangelicaism has said that as many as 9 out of 10 American Catholic parishes are not following official church teaching at all closely in many areas.)

[@jessemendoza7164]

I too enjoyed this discussion, especially the respect that was shown to one another. I also liked how Gaven was humble enough to consider Joe’s statement about Baptism, specifically that if 3rd and 4th church fathers were incorrect about Baptism, that there would have been debate about their beliefs. Keep up the good work and great content!

[@GospelSimplicity]

So glad you enjoyed it Jesse!

[@samuelflippin1890]

Another video that I will have to watch again. Both had great answers and gave me things to think about. Will need a notebook when I watch it again.

[@GospelSimplicity]

That’s a a great idea!

[@wilwelch258]

This has been fascinating! I loved the cordiality of both sides. I would have to more agree with Gavin but Joe had many great points which I agreed with. I am a confessional Lutheran so I very much believe in baptismal regeneration, it’s actually at the heart of our entire piety. Blessings in Christ!

[@GospelSimplicity]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@keepinthefaith6433]

What a great discussion! Thank you to all! ,

[@GospelSimplicity]

Our pleasure!

[@tonymorris3378]

LOVE this!! Reasoned cordial conversation that teaches and benefits all. Huge thumbs up guys!!!

[@GospelSimplicity]

So glad that you enjoyed it!

[@Ejohnd1]

Fascinating discussion! Thanks to all.

[@GospelSimplicity]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@rubenmartinez4346]

Loved this conversation! Both men were true gentleman. This cemented even more my faith as a catholic! Praying for the conversion of those non Catholics!

[@GospelSimplicity]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@PaxMundi118]

Wonderful conversation!

[@GospelSimplicity]

Thanks!

[@alexs.5107]

This conversation was great, great insights, great people. So refreshingly informative.

[@GospelSimplicity]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@duals-growthofculture2085]

I love the sudoku puzzle analogy, I'm definitely gonna use that. God bless all of you.

[@GospelSimplicity]

I thought that was a great analogy

[@Liquidforce360]

Gavin, as a lifelong Catholic, you gave me some things to think about. I always submit to the historical magisterium & will do so until the day I die, but you're right that we all make a choice of what we believe. Whether Catholic, Baptist, Angelican, or evangelical, we make a choice. That helps me understand what my protestant friends must think when I tell them that they are their own Pope. Thanks 😊

[@Liquidforce360]

The big and comforting thing for me when I don't understand or believe something the Catholic Church teaches, I just assume I'm wrong & submit. Is that humble or lazy ignorance. I don't think so b/c i almost always keep studying & reading until I seem to always understand & believe, rather than marching to the Church down the road. In fact, if I ever leave a Catholic Church for another Catholic Church in town, its b/c the priest himself has preached against a magisterial teaching.

[@GospelSimplicity]

I'm glad this gave you something to think about in future interactions!

[@Volleyball_Chess_and_Geoguessr]

Are you committed until the day you die because it's the TRUTH or because you'd stick with lies even if you knew they were lies? I had a Mormon also tell me there was no way she'd ever leave the Mormon church.

[@wojo9732]

The papacy is not taught in the early church or the book of acts. Mary died as well since she needed forgiveness of sin.

[@Catholic1391]

@@wojo9732 This is why Lucifer rebelled against God. kzbin.info/www/bejne/qGmsaXd6m8qqg7c

[@jacoblaan3707]

Very good discussion. Keep up the good work.

[@GospelSimplicity]

Thanks!

[@shawnharrington1144]

This is fantastic. Thank you all.

[@charliek2557]

This was excellent. Possibly my favorite one yet Austin. Keep up the good work and keep seeking truth brother.

[@GospelSimplicity]

Thanks!

[@feeble_stirrings]

A great discussion, highly enjoyable. As an Orthodox Christian I found myself nodding in agreement at different comments made by both Joe and Gavin. If only a 3 way debate could be an effective approach to discussing some of these things! Having an Orthodox perspective that at times is different than either Catholic or Protestant's stances on some of the things discussed here would have been cool to see.

[@GospelSimplicity]

Glad you enjoyed it! That would be fun to set that up!

[@Sonic2Chronicles]

This was so dope. Now I know why Gavin respects Joe so much and was hurt by their back and forth a few months ago. I want more conversations like this between my fellow Catholics and our Protestant brothers.

[@davidliu7967]

Problem is the gospel. That’s the issue and it always will be.

[@maryemilysmiley6146]

Informative, interesting conversation carried w full respect. Thought the question of Scripture and Tradition vs Sola Scriptura would be explicit. Both Joe and Gavin covered it in addressing the church fathers, I believe. Look forward to the next conversation.

[@GospelSimplicity]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@glorianiaga2111]

Austin!!! Way to go brother, this is so good. What breath of fresh air! It's good to know that there're very charitable people qho disagree, they really remind me of guys like Jimmy Akin, Erick Ybarra, and Bp. Robert Barron. Thabk you as always Austin.

[@GospelSimplicity]

My pleasure!

[@jess96154]

Great discussion! Let's get a second round.

[@fiveadayproductions987]

Wow wow wow! Really loved this! Hope to see more. Have you seen Erick Ybarra's review of this discussion, it really highlighted some great points about the different lenses and mindsets Catholics and Protestants use when approaching History. It was very enlightening.

[@GospelSimplicity]

Thanks! I have seen that!

[@sotem3608]

I can't find it either what is it called?

[@coondogbob]

Really solid discussion joe and gavin are gentlemen . I didn’t see this as a (who whom debate) but 2 great minds talking shop

[@GospelSimplicity]

Thanks! They’re fantastic.

[@masagolob3215]

Wow! This is going to be amazing!!😃 Can't wait!😃

[@GospelSimplicity]

It was SO much fun. Hope you enjoy it!

[@masagolob3215]

@@GospelSimplicity Thank you!🙂

[@ColleenB10]

I love these videos! So many good discussions and relevant topics. Thanks for coordinating all of these! You are the only non-Catholic I support on Patreon! ❤️

[@GospelSimplicity]

Wow! Thank you so much Colleen! I really appreciate that. God bless!

[@lordofthegeeks2320]

We need a part 2.

[@GospelSimplicity]

It’s coming!

[@shlamallama6433]

Make this a regular occurrence! Get on specific topics, and they should dedicate time to this. I would like it to focus on the Fathers as that is less accessible than the Bible and Biblical arguments. Keep the same format! God bless you and everyone who wants to see this or something like this, like it!

[@GospelSimplicity]

Hoping to do more!

[@mathematicalcoffee2750]

I'd love to see them both back on again, this was a great video

[@GospelSimplicity]

Thanks!

[@ashleygillett7520]

This is amazing! Thanks so much for doing this

[@arthurhallett-west5145]

Who apart from God is competent to judge who is "Saved"?!

[@YovanypadillaJr]

Reading Pope Peter by Joe Heschmeyer I am curious to see him in a debate setting.

[@GospelSimplicity]

I think you’ll enjoy it!

[@ryannafziger5158]

Pope Peter was instrumental in developing my understanding of the Papacy

[@YovanypadillaJr]

@@ryannafziger5158 yes it certainly rebuked a lot of the protestant objections to it.

[@stevenhazel4445]

Great book. I find its arguments very persuasive since they look at how Petrine leadership was assumed in the text itself.

[@Danaluni59]

Excellent, extremely reasonable, and completely civil debate! Bravo!!

[@GospelSimplicity]

Thanks!

[@dumbox1899]

Great civil conversation! :D

[@GospelSimplicity]

Thanks!

[@danstoian7721]

53:20 I totally understand Joe's question. Protestants may affirm that the visible Church has been protected by the Holy Spirit trough out every single generation. It's east to say that. But Joe's question is: "How does that fit in with the fact that Luther starts preaching the solas in the 15-th century?" As a protestant I struggle with that. The only answer I have is: if it's in the Bible, it's not from the15th century. But that still leaves us with the problem: Ok but what the whole Church seduced into not correctly reading the Bible?

[@Deperuse]

Gavin and Joe are gents! God bless. Very happy to watch this. Ps. random question: Austin did you make the intro/outro jams?

[@GospelSimplicity]

They’re fantastic! I did the video, but I did not make the audio (though that would be a fun project!)

[@Qwerty-jy9mj]

excellent, I'll make time for this one 👍

[@GospelSimplicity]

Hope you enjoy it! We had a blast

[@trupela]

Great conversation! I’ll be here for more! I’d like to add that if we don’t situate our discussions within the cosmic context, we risk truncated conclusions. So, how deep in history are we willing to go? As John’s gospel says, we must go all the way back to the beginning. To be that deep in history is to be in Christ!!

[@GospelSimplicity]

Fair point

[@jattebaleyos116]

This video was AWESOME!!!!!!

[@GospelSimplicity]

Thanks!

[@CristinaaaMx]

GOD BLESS HIS ONE AND ONLY CATHOLIC CHURCH 💖💖💖

[@borneandayak6725]

Amen

[@miguelinteriano125]

Amen brother..

[@tradpinoy]

Deo gratias!

[@nicolelowe3619]

kuddos Austin! your videos humble hardened hearts, you're a GREAT MAN! Just bought Joe's Book Pope Peter, was shocked when I saw him on your show bc he looks so young! you are in my prayers, Austin God bless you!

[@GospelSimplicity]

Thank you so much!

[@zekdom]

Highlights: - 41:20 and 41:43 and 42:37 What should we expect when looking into church history? Is everything going to be clear, immediately? 47:00 - Gavin Ortlund on doctrinal development 47:12 - turning the light on 48:10 - Magisterium 51:05, 51:40 - Division 53:18, 53:55 - Gavin’s point: the Reformers made it clear that the Church was alive in every generation. 55:30, 56:35 - Who decides what we should retrieve? Who decides what the church writers - after the first century - got right or wrong? 57:00, 57:32, 58:05 - Gavin’s response 59:45 - picking and choosing is possible for both sides. 1:01:10 - Augustine and Jerome 1:02:51 - Gavin’s response

[@raydudo3672]

Such a great discussion. Thanks all four of you! I loved Dr. Ortlund’s comment about the loneliness of modernity. So, so good. And I’m in the middle of reading Joe’s book *Pope Peter* (the best book on scriptural papal claims) Great job all around, and God bless

[@GospelSimplicity]

So glad you enjoyed it!

[@jwatson181]

I am going through the early church was Catholic and was honestly embarrassed for Joe. It may be the worst book I have read on Catholic claims. It made me wonder how anyone could possibly be Catholic . Joe struggles making coherent arguments.

[@raydudo3672]

@@jwatson181 Catholic* is the correct spelling (just a heads up for the future). That’s a very interesting viewpoint. Could you give some specific examples of flaws?

[@jwatson181]

@@raydudo3672 Typo. One specific example is he misrepresents Jerry Walls. He makes it seem like Jerry claims Peter was never in Rome, Jerry thinks Peter was in Rome. I would chalk it up to ignorance, but straw manning opponents happens repeatedly throughout the book. Joe may be the worst Catholic apologist.

[@jwatson181]

@@raydudo3672 Another example, the hiarchry of the early church. What was amazing, Joe's argument did not even follow from the premises. I suggest following more academic Catholic's. On a side note, imagine calling WLC a heretic?

[@Jackie.2025]

Thank you Pastor Gavin for refuting the lie of “being deep in history is to cease being Protestant.” Thank you, for being a living example, that this statement is simply not true.

[@fantasia55]

Church Fathers were all Catholic priests.

[@coloradodutch7480]

No that is historically not true. At the council of Nicaea (325 AD) they recognized that there were different regional authorities. So by definition the church fathers were not all Catholic priests as the church fathers also came from the other four regions.

[@fantasia55]

@coloradodutch7480 Church Fathers all celebrated Mass, all believed in the Real Presence and they all acknowledged the papacy - making them all Catholic priests.

[@DrChrisCoppernoll]

This is the episode that compelled my subscripting. A stimulating debate!

[@bethanyann1060]

Very enjoyable discussion!

[@GospelSimplicity]

Thanks!

[@xaviervelascosuarez]

I don't like these kinds of debates. They might help those who are on the fence, but I think they may hinder the way back of those who are very convinced about their position, like the debater. I'm firmly convinced that unity is a priority, and Gavin is right: the approach of making somebody feel like their side has to pay the price (he uses the example of mutual debts) cannot possibly be enticing. We have to stop talking of Protestants "converting" to Catholicism. Conversion is a life long task of any Christian: every time we stray from Jesus we must convert back to Him. And there are many Protestants who seem to me a lot closer to Christ than many Catholics. And that is the point. There are so many good Protestants and so many bad Catholics. I've heard and read priests and bishops teach more heresies than many Protestant preachers. So, the point is not who is right and who is wrong. Differences are not negligible, but they must take the back seat for a while. The most urgent need is unity. I know Protestants are missing out on some of the most amazing things that Christ gave to His Church, but no less true is that we Catholics are missing some really amazing people with strong faith and love for the Lord. We are in dire need to have them back. When the Church was rent by the schism, even though the fullness of the doctrine was left in the Church, as Jesus promised to Peter (and the twelve), the Reformation took away some very important gifts that are very badly needed back: knowledge and reverence for Scripture, unapologetic love for our Lord and, most of all, apostolic zeal and hunger to spread the Kingdom of Christ and the good news of the Gospel. So, no more of "you must recognize your errors and come back" and more of "we need you back home, we beg you to come home." I have great confidence that the time is ripe and that the Holy Spirit will take care of the doctrinal differences. Once they realize how much their mother the Church (because it IS their Church) needs them back, they will surely see how it's not worth arguing about whether Mary was assumed to Heaven or is buried somewhere in Turkey. I'm not talking about sacrificing truth for unity, but rather about trusting in the Spirit of Truth to do His job. None of us will do a better job. Every Protestant that I've read about coming back, has done so more moved by the Spirit than by the pestering of a Catholic. I believe our job is to invite them back, play to their better side by making them understand how much we need them... And we can always entice them with the amazing possibility of eating the Bread of Life. I know that, deep within, all good Christians hunger for the Body of Christ. For what kind of bride is she who doesn't crave for the Body of the Bridegroom! 😊

[@GospelSimplicity]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

You have a much better way of putting it than most Catholics. We already are here though, in the body of Christ where we belong and where we always want to be.

[@countryboyred]

That’s a nice gesture for you to make as a Catholic, and I really appreciate it. A Protestant response to this would be- we are already home. We already belong to the Body of Christ. We were baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We believe in Jesus Christ. How can I go “home” when I’m sitting inside my house?

[@michaeldonohue8870]

Just one correction on Dr Gavin's constant appeal to Epiphanius. Yes it is true that Epiphanius did not know whether Mary died or not, but he did know that she was assumed into Heaven. His debate is over whether she was assumed alive or dead. "If the Holy Virgin had died and was buried, her falling asleep would have been surrounded with honour, death would have found her pure, and her crown would have been a virginal one...Had she been martyred according to what is written: 'Thine own soul a sword shall pierce', then she would shine gloriously among the martyrs, and her holy body would have been declared blessed; for by her, did light come to the world." Epiphanius,Panarion,78:23 (A.D. 377) In the next section in 79 however he writes as Tim Staples quotes "Like the bodies of the saints, however, she has been held in honor for her character and understanding. And if I should say anything more in her praise, she is like Elijah, who was virgin from his mother’s womb, always remained so, and was taken up, but has not seen death." Clearly this is an explicit affirmation of the assumption. And he is confident enough to assert that she was assumed, he is simply not sure whether the parallel of being assumed alive (like Elijah) is true, and is willing to entertain that she was assumed dead as seen in the previous section before this.

[@GospelSimplicity]

Interesting. Thanks for the quotations!

[@jamesskyles896]

Also, whether she died or not has been dogmatically defined. The doctrine of the assumption proclaimed stated “When her earthly life was completed...”, and intentionally steered clear of defining whether or not she had died.

[@michaeldonohue8870]

@@jamesskyles896 absolutely, though for anyone reading this - it is most certainly the mind of the Church and taught consistently by the papal magisterium that she did die. The main theological reason is for her co-passion (compassion) with Christ which, just like Christs passion was completed with death, so too was Mary's. We have to remember that when you see someone you love suffer, "a sword pierces your soul", Mary like any mother grieved for her Son and suffered greatly in her love for Him and thus the Church speaks about the fittingness of her death in her parallel passion. (As we know Mary is in the stations of the cross).

[@TruthUnites]

Hi Michael! Thanks for supplying those. I think Ephiphanius is referencing Elijah, not Mary, in that second quotation. Otherwise he'd be contradicting himself in the space of one chapter. Blessings to you.

[@michaeldonohue8870]

@@TruthUnites Respectfully I am going to disagree, and by the way - great video, great talk - just had to mention epiphanius cause you brought him up a few times and naturally I think I have good cause to disagree, I'll just explain my case here and I'll just rest it here as well - feel free to respond, anyone else reading can decide for themselves.. So the doctrine of the assumption is clearly compatible with the fact that Mary died, not only did Pope Saint Pius XII say that she died multiple times in the encyclical with the ex-cathedra statement found here: www.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-xii_apc_19501101_munificentissimus-deus.html But he quoted another Father as well who teaches the assumption with the death of Mary. "Thus St. John Damascene, an outstanding herald of this traditional truth, spoke out with powerful eloquence when he compared the bodily Assumption of the loving Mother of God with her other prerogatives and privileges. "It was fitting that she, who had kept her virginity intact in childbirth, should keep her own body free from all corruption even after death." Paragraph 21 from the encyclical. So from my perspective, when Epiphanius is unsure of whether or not Mary dies, there is inherently no contradiction whatsoever of being unsure about her death, and being sure of her assumption, because clearly - as the Church teaches (albeit non-definitively but nevertheless consistently) Mary did die prior to her assumption. So if we read Epiphanius in section 78 he says: "If the Holy Virgin had died and was buried, her falling asleep would have been surrounded with honour, death would have found her pure, and her crown would have been a virginal one...Had she been martyred according to what is written: 'Thine own soul a sword shall pierce', then she would shine gloriously among the martyrs, and her holy body would have been declared blessed; for by her, did light come to the world." IF the Holy Virgin had died, so he is clearly UNSURE. And because both views, an assumption after death or an assumption prior to death are compatible, he is perfectly at liberty to express whether he thinks her body was assumed, dead or alive. The only question is whether he thought so, and I think we just need to read Epiphanius again, because he isn't referring to Elijah. "Like the bodies of the saints, however, she has been held in honor for her character and understanding. And if I should say anything more in her praise, she is like Elijah, who was virgin from his mother’s womb, always remained so, and was taken up, but has not seen death." So Mary (like the bodies of the saints) has been held in honor for her (Mary's) character and understanding. And if I (Epiphanius) should say anything more in her (Mary's praise) she is like (similar to, another example of, a parallel to) Elijah who was a: A) Perpetual Virgin (just like Mary) B) Taken Up/Assumed (just like Mary). You are right he speaks about Elijah, but wrong that he predicates these attributes only of Elijah, instead he is comparing Mary to Elijah precisely because she shares these attributes, perpetual virginity, and assumption. The only attribute/parallel he is doubting is whether, like Elijah, she was assumed alive as opposed to dead (which if the Church has anything to say, it seems to be she was assumed after death). So he was right to be skeptical.

[@magdalenelah8231]

Thanks Austin, another great show👍🏼👍🏼✌️✌️🙏🏼🙏🏼

[@GospelSimplicity]

My pleasure!

[@Freshnewz10]

I like the fact that Dr Gavin doesn’t come up with straw man arguments against Catholics. As a Protestant I grew up with these false accusations against Catholics so when I discovered that my misconceptions towards Catholics were not accurate I felt bombarded with facts but something in me just couldn’t seem to fully agree with Catholic doctrine. I’m not saying that Catholic doctrine was heretic but I didn’t think it was accurate but Dr Gavin actually laid out some points on stands on Protestants. Moving forward I hope that Catholics, Protestant, and orthodox can come in agreement despite their doctrinal differences as the unified body of Christ

[@brendansheehan6180]

I'll say this here as well: The Reason the Apostles and Church Father's wrote ANYTHING was to overcome heretical views about the faith. If everyone agreed that Mary is what the Church said she was, no one would write about it. If the seat of Peter was understood to be what the Church said it was, no one would write about it. Nobody was writing because it was fun. It was extreamly costly. People only wrote because they had to. If they didn't have to? Then they wouldn't. And what you see given this fact is that Mary's blessedness and Peter's Office is actually mentioned **accidently** by the authors as they addressed completely different issues. THAT should give you confidence that the Church is correct in regards to them, and everyone should decide to become Catholic. Anyways, God bless yall.

[@kevindory8869]

Gavin Ortlund : clear winner

[@GospelSimplicity]

Thanks for weighing in! I’d love to hear what you thought were his strongest points

[@thepentacostalchatholicconvert]

This was fantastic! 😍

[@MontoyaBrandy]

So important not just know and understand the church throughout history but also the way the world worked during those ages.

[@nametheunknown_]

Wow, very helpful conversation. One of the best I've seen on the RC/Protestant differences. Thank you for this.

[@schwartzkm]

I'd love to see this same dialogue with an Orthodox scholar. Seems the lion share of his objections are those doctrines that developed after the schism. Doctrines that were universally believed by early church that the majority of evangelicals reject: Baptismal regeneration Ecclesiology (Bishop, priests, and deacons...) Eucharist is the body and blood (ignore the how's) ... It seems to me that the "ethos" of Evangelicalism and those teachings that are stressed is absent in the 1st 1k+ years. My 1 cent...

[@francisdsouza176]

Thank you Austin, because of Your Channel, I am becoming a good catholic

[@Adam-ue2ig]

Great job Gavin!

[@gregvanblair9096]

Austin to reply to your reply...its not necessarily about "developments", but Authority. The Question is...Is there a voice for Jesus Christ after his ascension? Is it general providence and the Scriptures codified 400 years later...or an established Body of Believers, The Church with a Head. (Though the "Head" in a Catholic perspective is ultimately The Pastor, to pastor the flock...one of many Presbyters who govern the Children of God). Sadly we forget the family aspect of the Body of Christ and moreover the Communion of Saints. Truly the Militant and Triumphant!

[@GospelSimplicity]

Thanks for sharing these thoughts!

[@wilts43]

Austin, Your gentlemanly style hosted a cordial debate. This is wonderful. I thought Dr Ortland's comments on blind spots was highly relevant. Ultimately this conversation was about "where is the truth". We cannot see our own blind-spots (by definition) so Protestants must show me mine. But I would like to suggest that Protestants are blind to the influence of "modern individualism" posed against the Church ("Me-&-Jesus" or "Me-&-my-Bible"). Likewise the influence of "Democratic truthes". Dr Ortland said a 90/10 split is better than a 60/40......Why? (Matters of truth are not decided by a vote) Sometimes the (Catholic/Orthodox) "Truth" was a minority opinion; sometimes "middle-ground" sometimes "extreme" (well brought out in the discussion). The modern world has different categories of determining "truth" than the Church. Joe hinted at the crux with his "Ecclesial Deism". Catholics think of His Church as His literal body, in which He is continously abiding. It is His Incarnation continued.....material, visible, wounded, suffering and yet divine. As such it is incapable of teaching error, even while its exploration of its truth goes onward, deeper & deeper. And without this "protection from error" no journey into "all truth" (promised by Jesus) is possible! The Protestant narrative must, perforce, preach (or assume) a great apostasy.....or it has no reason to exist....to stand "outside".....and protest. But having deposed the Authority of the Catholic Magisterium nothing has workably replaced it as the Protestant oracle (as it were). Ultimately there is nothing to put in its place but opinion (interpretation of scripture). Sometimes this opinion is respectfully expressed as here and sometimes it is used as a brutal cudgel. But our, modern, Western sensibilities are ill-disposed to accepting a supernaturally guided truth mediated through humans in a Church that is literally The Body of Christ and His Bride as two become one flesh.

[@phoult37]

"But having deposed the Authority of the Catholic Magisterium nothing has workably replaced it as the Protestant oracle" --Well said. Even by trying to examine what Church Father's believed, the protestant is still practicing surrogate individualism. The Catholic Church had/has Church councils to rectify this problem, whereas protestants do not. Hence, the historical and continued fractionation of the protestant denominations.

[@alwayscatholicknight7920]

I Subbed to both joined the Cordial Catholic now this Moring on Resurrection Sunday april 4th 2021

[@GospelSimplicity]

Nice!

[@Rugbylacroose4life]

God Bless you all!

[@gregvanblair9096]

Absolutely the church "developed", that's a given because it was and is a Living Church imbued and lead by the Holy Spirit...but the essential aspects of the Gospel, of The Faith which was once for all delivered to the saints (Jude 1:3) was at the foundation...built upon the Apostles with Christ as the Cornerstone!

[@GospelSimplicity]

I think both of them agree with development, they just differ over the validity of certain developments

[@sleepyeye4951]

@@GospelSimplicity How to know if its valid though? Is it the authority of the church that makes it valid? or take it upon ourselves (through research and own understanding) to authorize if its valid or not?

[@goranvuksa1220]

@@sleepyeye4951 It must depend on what you mean by "developed". Church is the living body of Christ lead by the Holy Spirit, but Christ and the Holy Spirit are God and are not developing/changing. We as humans and as societies do develop/change (although in reality our fundamental nature is the same as it has been before Christ was born). So Church must "develop" to some degree in its appearance in order to be able to proclaim the Truth to its contemporaries, but any development that changes fundamental doctrines and teachings of the Apostles is equal of leaving the Church.

[@thepentacostalchatholicconvert]

@@goranvuksa1220 so true! And we need to develop our understanding as well!

[@traceyedson9652]

I listened to this on Keith’s podcast having heard of it on Austin’s. It seems hard to not think that the Holy Spirit will use such people & venues to renew & strengthen His Church in the difficult days ahead. Of course, as an Orthodox, I found myself wanting to say, “But Orthodoxy...!” What edifying fun! Cant wait for more, and for a three-way with an Orthodox of kindred spirit & ability.

[@GospelSimplicity]

Adding an orthodox host and contributor would be great fun!

[@p.doetsch6209]

Don't think Orthodoxy will contribute much as it's essentially Protestantism at it's roots. Reject the Papacy and you get Orthodoxy and eventually Protestantism.

[@traceyedson9652]

@@p.doetsch6209 Very much not so. I was Protestant.

[@p.doetsch6209]

@@traceyedson9652 It's "high Protestantism", you have the Sacraments, you have the Ecclesiology, but there's no Magisterium.

[@traceyedson9652]

@@p.doetsch6209 sorry, only from an ultra-montanist would one call it that. If it works for you, fine, but it won’t bring you any closer to understanding it. It has a magisterium, just not a Roman one. It’s a conciliar one.

[@anastassiavales7373]

42:50 joe make a quote that is inline with scripture. “For now we see in the mirror dimly but then we we see as though we are face to face.” I believe that development of theology and doctrine is possible and biblical as the generation grow. Historical theology allows the new generation to gain greater spiritual understanding of all scripture and scriptural commentary.

[@BruvaLucius]

That was such an incredible discussion to see, some really excellent points made by everyone. Curiosity got to me though and have to ask if for future iterations of these discussions would there be a chance for a representative of the Orthodox Church?

[@GospelSimplicity]

Glad you enjoyed it! I'd be open to it in the future

[@BruvaLucius]

You could almost call it an ecumenical council then 😂

[@herbertherbertic6223]

Yes!

[@GospelSimplicity]

Hope you enjoy it!

[@herbertherbertic6223]

I cannot wait!

[@housecry]

I wonder if it would be possible to have a Jewish Christian as a guest. Roy Schoeman is a Roman Catholic and he has a great interest in Jewish Saints within the Catholic church. Topic Ideas What became of Judaism after the destruction of the Temple and the entrance of Christianity? You may want to extend him and invitation. Then maybe a Jewish believer who leans more toward an evangelical tradition.

[@GospelSimplicity]

Interesting idea!

[@zacdredge3859]

I actually think the dueling reference was more profound then Joe necessarily intended it to be. We often use phrases like 'verbal jousting' or 'riposte' in terms of robust debate or discussion and I think there's some truth to saying that this is the modern duel...

[@johnsayre2038]

Up to the 37 minute mark. Does Dr. Ortlund revisit Joe's line of questioning about whether or not the church ever has the authority to dogmatize a teaching? So far definitely enjoying this conversation. Thank you for the content.

[@myronmercado]

Wow!

[@GospelSimplicity]

Indeed!

[@jonathanjacobson9725]

This dialogue is great but is sorely missing an Orthodox Christian's historically consistent and balanced perspective.

[@GospelSimplicity]

Perhaps one day in the future

[@dboan6847]

Would be interesting for them discuss ecclesiology in view of Saint Ignatius's writings around 105 AD. How does a Protestant who holds to a low view of Ecclesiology (as most Baptists) line their view of the Church up with Saint Igantius?

[@dboan6847]

@JD Apologetics Do you have some specific references in Jerome you can point me to?

[@quidam3810]

Did i miss it or did Gavin never answered the question about how to decide what's right and wrong concerning the Trinity or Christology that Jo asked him by comparison with Marian dogmas ? Great discussion, though, thanks a lot !!

[@toddthacker8258]

I think I know his answer to it--you find the foundation for the Trinity, etc. in the Scriptures (even in the OT) and very early church writings. The Marian dogmas don't start appearing until much, much later.

[@matthewtate4246]

Next episode: Joe Heschmeyer debates Pope Francis

[@GospelSimplicity]

Haha, I’m here for it

[@mikeoconnor4590]

Great discussion! The problem I have with Gavin s interpretation of the visible church is it seems at variance with both scripture and history - sort of mental gymnastics to my mind. If Christ sends believers to “hear the church - and if they won’t hear the Church let him be as the tax collector and sinner” (Matt 18:17 paraphrase) - this seems clear that 1 the church is visible in the sense that it is identifiable - by the believer not simply visible in the generic sense that Gavin seems to favor and 2 - the Church is both reliable and Authoritative (and given that this passage requires adherence to the finding of the Church that authority must have a charism of infallibility as our Lord would never command believers to adhere to the dictates of “the Church” - if that Church could teach error). Thus when the scripture describes the Church as the pillar and ground of the truth - 1 Tim 3:15 - we know that the Church teaches correctly. Many other verses (Eg: “he who hears you hears me”, behold I am with you until the end of the world” “I will send you the advocate who will lead you in all truth” etc) gives us assurance that Christ teaches through the visible church in time and that the teaching will be true. Fast forward 2000 years. How can we know which Church has that authority to teach - let’s say on central issues related to Salvation - like baptism? Which Church does Christ send us to? If I go to Gavin s church (Baptist) is there anything that I can point to that will give me assurance that the Baptist church is “the Church” Christ wants me to hear? To me this is one of the major weaknesses of the Protestant approach to knowing Christian truth. A few questions - if we lived in 110 AD - what would our “rule of faith” be? We know it couldn’t be the full Christian canon since it wasn’t codified as an accepted canon at that point and also wasn’t readily available to the common man/ believe at that point. Second question - are there any believers who held to the two Protestant foundational principals in the first 600 years of Church history - namely did anyone hold that we are saved by faith alone and did anyone hold that the Bible alone and in its entirety was the only sure guide to truth? The answer is obvious to anyone who has read the fathers and should make one have second thoughts in regards to following these Protestant principals. Finally did the early church believe in Catholic / Orthodox distinctives such as Apostolic succession, real (corporeal) presence of Christ in the Eucharist, seven sacraments etc. I could go on as there were many topics addressed that could be a separate video in and of themselves. I really do enjoy these presentations - thanks again Austin Great job!

[@GospelSimplicity]

Thanks for sharing these thoughts. For now, what I'll say is that we're hoping to do a future episode on the nature of the church, so stay tuned for that!

[@jrhemmerich]

At 34:25 Joe speaks of their being various views of Mary’s sinlessness. For him it is enough that the answer was speculative for Chrysostem, and so long as the church’s later view was possibly on the table, then the church has the power to confirm the correct view. One issue here is the epistemological basis for creating a necessary doctrine to be believed. In the Catholic view, the Church has the power to declare doctrine which is not present in scripture. While in the Protestant view, if the view is a speculative implication based in the statements of scripture (to be distinguished from the Trinity, which is not a speculative view, but directly implied by clear statements of Jesus’ divinity and oneness with the father), then the Church does not have that power. The decision to make a belief necessary based only upon church tradition and ecclesial decision rather than upon grounding in scripture is a very important distinction in how the church exercises the authority that it does have from God. To say that Jesus ‘ statement in Jn 17 about the Holy Spirit leading the Church remains true today, but the Protestant is going to insist along with the early church that later non-apostolic insights and speculations not be raised to equality with scripture, because such new doctrines are not being “remembered” by the church, especially if there is no connection to scripture, or a chain of custody reaching back to the first fathers for supposed oral teachings. To say that the prevailing of the church against the gates of hades (the grave) requires the doctrine of papal infallibility ignores the possibility that the church will prevail, not on account of her infallibility, but on account of her being led by the Spirit into humility and a willingness to be corrected and to not go beyond what is written. Protestants could see their way back to Rome much more easily if the pretenses of church authority to create dogma was given up. That way, even if Protestants did not agree with a particular doctrine, there would be the possibility to address it based upon scripture. Many difference would be would ranked with the proper attention to their content, rather than Roman infallibility as a denial that the Church need to be sanctified. Is not progressive sanctification the real story of church history. The criterion not being the past exactly but special revelation.

[@tombombadil6954]

Yes.