Did Constantine Corrupt the Church? (w/ Joe Heschmeyer)

In this episode of The Cordial Catholic, I'm joined by Catholic Answers apologist Joe Heschmeyer to talk about the Early Church - was the original, pristine Christian Church corrupted by Constantine? Did the Roman Emperor "romanize" the Christians?
Joe and I dig into this premise and look at the earliest evidence of how Christians lived, worshipped, and what they believed to see what the Early Church looked like and if it really did, indeed, change when Constantine became Christian. We look at the first 200 years of Christianity and compare it to modern day Catholicism and Evangelical Protestantism to see which looks most like the evidence. It's a fantastic conversation.
For more from Joe, check out his previous appearances on this show on the podcast version, available everywhere, and here: podcast.thecordialcatholic.com.
Check out Joe's website at www.shamelesspopery.com
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[@faithharbour]

I’m in the process of discerning a move from Protestant to Catholic. I’m currently reading Joe’s Pope Peter which is illuminating. I’ve just ordered this new book, can’t wait to read it. Thank you for this interview.

[@trusttruth6097]

The Catholic Church has been in the apostasy since 1958. The True Faith can Not change. The Catholic Faith is the True Church. Learn what has happened, a good source is Novus ordo watch online. Find the society of St. Pius V online for real traditional priests. Contact them about coming to the Faith.

[@jamessheffield4173]

Galatians 2:11: But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

[@trusttruth6097]

@@jamessheffield4173 And your point is?

[@billymays7958]

​@@jamessheffield4173papal infallibility does not make a claim for impeccable popes.

[@zeektm1762]

@@jamessheffield4173what’s the point in citing this

[@BobBoldt-sp1gr]

A note to Protestants/Evangelicals who watch this sort of video: great job. I have enormous respect for truth seekers. Even you ultimately disagree or agree, it’s great when people are willing to seek the truth. Reading original sources is the best. Read Clement, Ignatious, Iraneous, Justin Martyr and St Cyprian. All way before Constantine (another topic). Then decide for yourself.

[@jefferybeck9306]

Catholic through teenage years, Charismatic Protestant for 50+, going to reconcilliation on May 6th, coming back into full communion with the church. It is difficult to read the Church Fathers and remain Protestant.

[@elizabethking5523]

@@jefferybeck9306, Welcome back Home !!!🙏🏻❤️.

[@jefferybeck9306]

Thank you! ​@@elizabethking5523

[@jdlee1972]

A minor argument but I think valid as well. The Ethopian Church. Wasnt in the Roman Empire. But has exactly the same priests, deacons, bishops, sacraments.

[@jdlee1972]

@YAJUN YUAN and your point?

[@jdlee1972]

@YAJUN YUAN I am pretty sure you arent a history major. The Ethopian Church is an Oriental Orthodox Church. Spilt after Chalcedon. You r just biased and prejuiced against the Latin Church. Pls take ur ahistorical ideas elsewhere.

[@jdlee1972]

And for my learning pls cite your quotes pls.

[@jdlee1972]

@YAJUN YUAN If so, then, I think it would do you well to read in detail the wikipedia article in detail. With regards to your first point about the submission of Susenyos, it is stated in the same wiki that you cited that he made Roman Catholicism the official state religion but was met with heavy resistance by his subjects and by the authorities of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, and eventually had to abdicate in 1632 in favour of his son, Fasilides, who promptly restored Ethiopian Orthodox Christianity as the state religion. This means the Ethiopians rejected the Latin rite. Thus preserving their original rites. So no "tainting" there. Plus the timeline given is in the 17th century well after the reformation. this means that the Ethoipians already had a well established Orthodox faith, and from what I know a Geez Rite in their own language. Some reserach will also show that the Ethopians practice the Antiochian Rite which is distinct from the Latin rite. The "Roman" church has no influence on development of Ethopian liturgical practice. This gels with your quote "Early Christianity became the established church of the Ethiopian Axumite Kingdom under king Ezana in the 4th century when priesthood and the sacraments were brought for the first time through a Syrian Greek named Frumentius, known by the local population in Ethiopia as "Selama, Kesaté Birhan" " which indicates a Syriac Greek influence. Again... the "roman" church is not involved. So I think you overestimated the infiltration of the Roman Catholic Church. The Oriental Orthodox (of which the Ethopian Church is the largest) is an Apostolic Church that shares the same Apostolic roots as the Roman Church (Latin Rite) but is distinct. Perhaps if you read more on the Orthodox you would discover they all share the same concept of sacraments,. And the fact you pointed out about a different bible (which you didnt elaborate further) shows that the Ethopian Church was not Latinised and kept their own Canon. I hope that clarifies for you. I do not know nor understand your bias against my church, I pray you will read and understand more.

[@jdlee1972]

@YAJUN YUAN Just want to make some clarifications. The Ethopian Church uses the Alexandrian Rite. My bad. But my point stands that the conversion of the Ethopians and the rites used have nothing to do with the Latin Rite. Now back to your latest point. I think I would disagree with your point that "Episcopal structure has nothing to do with liturgy". I think you see the structure as an administrative role, but the early church saw it as both administrative and magesterial. A bishop isnt a manager to rule a diocese or a group of house churches. He has the teaching authority to ensure that the Deacons and Priests are in line with orthodox teaching. And the Pope/Patriarch is usually (this is where I am not an expert at but I gather from my understanding) a bishop who oversees other bishops. Early Christians were very concerned about heresy. The disagreement of chalcedon was over prepositions used and langauge for goodness sake. All in the name of orthodox teaching. Add to the role of a bishop and Priest the sacredotal role of a ordained inidividual. Commissioned by the Apostles via apostolic succession. That is a big deal. It isn't a job you studied for and then applied for via an advert. Lex orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi. If you believed in a divine priesthood like the Old Testament - High Priest, Priest, levites, the same structure applies to Christ, Priests and deacons. The priests offer sacrifices. And the High priest as well, though in the Christian context, Christ the High Priest offered himself as the pure sacrifice.So the titles and their roles are not quite the same.

[@gk3292]

Great interview! Joe Heschmeyer is such blessing…he was one of those who was instrumental in me reverting back to the one Holy Catholic & Apostolic Church🙏✝️

[@mitchellosmer1293]

quote--one Holy Catholic & Apostolic Church-- unquote Quote that from the HOLY BIBLE!!!

[@GumbyJumpOff]

Just so everyone knows, Joe now has a youtube channel too, called Shameless Popery like his website. And it is excellent! My favorite episode is Was Mary A Perpetual Virgin? But they're all good. He's very talented at what he does. God bless you all!

[@rosiegirl2485]

I cannot wait to listen to this! First off...I love Joe Heshmeyer. The way he explains things, just seems to connect with me. Second off...my brother who lives with me, has become a raging anti-Catholic conspiracy theorist, and truly believes that Constintine started the "Roman" Catholic Church. I still don't understand why the Roman part of that, is used like a curse word. My understanding is, that it is referencing the Latin rite of the Church.

[@hotconcrete]

The only thing that Constantine did was make Christianity legal. The Church was alive and well, but after Constantine’s decree permitted the Church to come out in public and the building of the first churches began. Your brother has been misinformed.

[@susand3668]

Dear Rosiegirl, my prayers are with you!

[@joecastillo8798]

@rosiegirl2485 Rosie, The "Roman" addition actually came from England's Henry VIII who, being excommunicated, desired to maintain the title of Catholic for his church of England. Thus he started calling the Catholic Church: "Roman". The Catholic Church has never used Roman for the Church. The only "Roman" used is for the "Roman Rite" of Mass which is only assigned to the city of Rome. That's it! God bless.

[@elizabethking5523]

@rosiegirl2485, tell your brother that by Constantine’s birth… the Catholic Church was on their 26th (I believe) pope!! Felix I. !! The Church was WELL underway!! The state of Rome killed the first 30 popes!! Constantine didn’t start or mold ANYTHING! He stopped the killing of Christians of which we are grateful. 😂 The Church began in the year 33 AD. ❤🙏🏻

[@MrJoebrooklyn1969]

I read his book and it was one of the best books I've read about Catholic apologetics since I've come back to the Catholic Church. I don't see how any Protestant can read the early Church Fathers and still remain Protestant. It's either pride or stupidity.

[@jonathanbohl]

Thanks!

[@deadalivemaniac]

As an Orthodox Christian, loved the presentation and I align much more with the RC than Protestant/Evangelicals on most topics. The one criticism I have is I think Joe equivocated a bit on the phrase “Catholic Church” in Patristics. Not to argue all the points he’d raise about the papacy or things of that nature revolving around Petrine charism, but I think it is broader than is being used.

[@ernestannapetrone7106]

I really enjoy Joe Heschmeyer’s show and these podcasts explaining the Catholic Church’s role in Christianity. I wonder if he can direct energy toward helping with efforts to unite the East and West Churches. The Schism is something we need to look into and try to remedy.

[@emmanuelsaidi2677]

I don’t think Constantine changed the fundamentals but he did influence the bureaucratic development of the church which continues to this day

[@TheCoachsCoach933]

Please explain further the “bureaucratic developments”?

[@C-ip2sq]

I would be interested in seeing a video series that analyzes and critiques the theological claims of the Christadelphians. There seems to be a lack of critical examination of their beliefs online.

[@Pax-Christi]

Love your work Joe, just ordered your book "The Early Church Was The Catholic Church", looking forward to reading it! Peace be with you!

[@mitchellosmer1293]

>>> >Apostle Peter was a Galileen Jew,so if he is the 1st Pope then he is going against jesus commandment " call no man on earth Father or teacher".- >>>>>>Although Peter recognized himself as an apostle (see, e.g., 1 Pet. 1:1; 2 Pet. 1:1), he never claimed a superior title, rank, or privilege over the other apostles. He even referred to himself as a “fellow elder” (1 Pet. 5:1) and as “a bond-servant” of Christ (2 Pet. 1:1). Far from claiming honor and homage for himself, he soberly warns his fellow elders to guard against lording it over those under their pastoral care (1 Pet. 5:3). The only glory he claimed for himself was that which is shared by all believers and which is yet “to be revealed, … when the Chief Shepherd appears” (vv. 1, 4). >>>St. Peter address himself as elder in 1 Peter 5:1 and 2 Peter 3:2 as apostle. 1 Peter 5:1 The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed: 2 Peter 3:2 I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy >>>>prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles. FACT: When did Peter die in the Bible? Peter is believed to have died as a martyr for his faith. Although his death is not described in Scripture, numerous writers of the time (or shortly thereafter) described his death as having occurred in Rome during the reign of the emperor Nero in 64 CE. So, what about this? Tradition has it that the Apostle Peter ordained Ignatius as bishop of Antioch in AD 69. Five years AFTER Peter died Ignatius was ordained by Peter??? >>>

[@wolfthequarrelsome504]

Wow, a time detective. So you never call any man "father"? Are you a bit mad, by any chance?

[@mitchellosmer1293]

@@wolfthequarrelsome504 I called my dad father a few times--BUT NOT in spritual way!!!

[@mpkropf5062]

@@mitchellosmer1293you are taking it out of context. Most Protestants do. Jesus wasn’t saying that not to call them Father ( many call Abraham Father in Protestantism!) He was telling the disciples not to be like the Pharisees and ask something of others they are not willing to do. Protestants call their leaders Pastor which means teacher and that would also be breaking that Commandment! But that was not what Jesus was saying! But it is the #1 thing a Protestant will take out of context! Many people were called Father in sacred scripture. And calling a Priest Father is showing respect for their calling which is much higher than the calling of a Protestant Pastor!

[@dynamic9016]

Really love listening to Joe Heschmeyer..

[@TheCordialCatholic]

Me too! I could talk to him all day!

[@truthangel5948]

Trying to figure out why my 68 year old sister left Catholics and joined the 7 day adventists ??? She says because of Constantine but cannot explain. What the heck ????

[@pdub69triniboy]

Have her watch answering Adventistsim, he is a ex Adventist third generation, he know their heresy very well

[@maryadame44]

My first thought is. The sabbath.. so now you can go on Saturday and or Sunday…..

[@pdub69triniboy]

Look up the Lord's day, and you will see the early church fathers from the first century, call it the day of worship Revalation 1-10

[@chapmicua1858]

I agree about the 114 years as not that long ago. I met my great grandfather who was born in 1896 in my early years and he died in my early adult years. He lived to be about a hundred years. This means that he was 18 when WW1 started 110 years ago.

[@garyball1587]

The pope will never answer that question. Cuz the question was lost many years ago. That question-and-answer City library in the Vatican and they cannot find it.

[@susand3668]

Dear Garyball, more English humor?

[@catholicbeth2371]

I believe in Unicorns as long as they are pink. They live in the same mystical land as the evidence for the early church fathers' protestant beliefs.

[@kennetheriksen1091]

There was no peotestants nor catholics in the early church.

[@catholicbeth2371]

@@kennetheriksen1091 Just as there is no mystical land where pink unicorns exist right?

[@kennetheriksen1091]

@@catholicbeth2371 There was no protestants before Luther in the year 1500. There was no catholics either. You lack the empirical evidence to prove your stance. Look up 'early christianity' on wikipedia or read recognized books on the topic. This is not devaluing the catholic tradition at all, but it's keeping the dogmatic anachronisms where they belong; in your mystical lands riding the unicorns. Edit: there were some that tried to reform the chruch before Luther that got killed by the church for heresy, but to be fair, lets draw the line with Luther.

[@catholicbeth2371]

Oh Kenneth please read what I actually wrote, perhaps you are missing my typically British sarcastic humour. Of course there were no protestants amongst the early church Fathers, just as there are NO PINK UNICORNS, my point was neither pink UNICORNS nor early church protestants have ever existed.. .

[@catholicbeth2371]

@@kennetheriksen1091 By the way I know there were no early church protestant theologians. I am doing an MA in CATHOLIC theology, if they had existed I would have found them...

[@maryadame44]

Baptist and all the other baby churches that came from the Catholic Church go on Sunday because the resurrection but what is the actual day? I think we have to go back to Genesis.❤️🕊

[@johnosumba1980]

Why go to genesis and it is there in the New Testament? If you understand that Christianity brings a new creation then you don’t have to believe in mosaic law but teachings of Jesus Christ.

[@johnchung6777]

I don’t know if anyone has noticed that Saint Paul in his epistles was reprimanding and admonishing those Christians in his time for their corruption??🤔😳🤨

[@enderwiggen3638]

Justin Martyr on the Eucharist and mass, First Apology (150 to 160 AD) CHAPTER LXVI -- OF THE EUCHARIST. And this food is called among us Eukaristia (the Eucharist), of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these, but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them, that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body," and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood," and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn. CHAPTER LXVII -- WEEKLY WORSHIP OF THE CHRISTIANS. And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy, and we always keep together, and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits, then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen, and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit, and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world, and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday), and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration. ​​⁠ Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans CHAPTER VI-UNBELIEVERS IN THE BLOOD OF CHRIST SHALL BE CONDEMNED. Let no man deceive himself. Both the things which are in heaven, and the glorious angels, and rulers, both visible and invisible, if they believe not in the blood of Christ, shall, in consequence, incur condemnation. "He that is able to receive it, let him receive it." Let not(high) place puff any one up, for that which is worth all is a faith and love, to which nothing is to be preferred. But consider those who are of a different opinion with respect to the grace of Christ which has come unto us, how opposed they are to the will of God. They have no regard for love, no care for the widow, or the orphan, or the oppressed, of the bond, or of the free, of the hungry, or of the thirsty. I feel sorry for any protestants who keep denying the truth of Christ’s Catholic church when exposed to the entire history of the church online and through videos like this where they will literally walk you through the church fathers wrote and practiced … which they can go find themselves. The Eucharist in the Catholic Church puts at a representation of Calvary. We are right there at the cross seeing how he died for our sins and partake of his new blood covenant by eating his flesh and blood in remembrance of him.

[@joshuablessed7782]

Hello I’m a recent subscriber to your channel im a believer and grew up Protestant all of my life first evangelical then dabbled into the messianic movement because I wanted to draw closer to the early roots of the faith realizing the first believers were Jews and since I have some Jewish blood in me (fathers side) though wasn’t raised in Judaism recently I’ve identified more as non denominational and recently I’ve been studying Luther and I came to the conclusion he wasn’t some Godly hero of the faith he said many things I cringe about like saying it’s ok to commit murder and fornicate 1000 times a day that we would never separate ourselves from the lamb also how he hated the book of James and wanted it burned because it contradicts being justified by faith alone .. Paul and James can’t contradict each other so I understand that true faith produces good works. James 2:24 contradicts Luther and even he knew it also weird quotes I found about him being attacked by demons and wanted to put the Devil in his Anus? I really just want to practice closer to first century Christianity if the Catholic Church is true Id happily accept it I just can’t wrap my head around praying to Mary though I know she’s a great woman of faith and should be honored more than the average Protestant I think there’s limits or venerating icons though I know art has its place in teaching the illiterate I feel uneasy of depicting God or Christ that’s what’s my stumbling block. Many Protestant Christians credit Constantine for Catholicism because there was some evidence he still worshipped the sun god since it was still on his coins and wanted to mix paganism with Christianity another thing that bothers me is Easter and Christmas since it has pagan origins in fertility and sun worship before it was adopted and transferred into the Catholic Church in the OT God tells the Israelites not to worship him as the nations worship their gods in the catholic tradition the Jewish day of Pentecost is still honored with a new Christian spin the same used to be said with Passover look up Polycarp how he went to Rome to dispute the change from Christian Passover to Easter why was the Change made ? That’s why the word for Easter in other languages is Passover because it was replaced. In Spanish it’s la pascua . I used to believe Catholics are a false church an apostate church but I no longer come to that conclusion I may not agree with all of its doctrines but that doesn’t mean it’s all wrong how were ppl saved prior to the reformation? That’s what got me thinking .. but I still have questions and wish I had the answers I also long to see unity in the body and 30,000 denominations isn’t from God Christianity is the only religion as such what’s your view on Quartodecimanism and St Polycarp saying John taught him to observe the Passover according to the Gospel? You find similar things about the sabbath (7th day, Friday sundown-Saturday sundown)being kept in the east while Christians in the west kept the Lords day on a Sunday (1st day of the week)to honor the resurrection or some kept both days I was sabbath observant for about 6 months before I relented but it’s still something I go back and forth on Polycarp bishop of Ephesus early church father while going up to Rome to dispute the change from the Christian Passover 14th day of the Jewish month of Nisan same day as Jewish Passover to the day of Easter already known to pagans (quartodeciman debate) said "All these observed the fourteenth day of the passover according to the Gospel, deviating in no respect, but following the rule of faith. And I also, Polycrates, the least of you all, do according to the tradition of my relatives, some of whom I have closely followed. For seven of my relatives were bishops; and I am the eighth. And my relatives always observed the day when the people put away the leaven. I, therefore, brethren, who have lived sixty-five years in the Lord, and have met with the brethren throughout the world, and have gone through every Holy Scripture, am not affrighted by terrifying words. For those greater than I have said 'We ought to obey God rather than man.... “For although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this. The Egyptians in the neighborhood of Alexandria, and the inhabitants of Thebais, hold their religious assemblies on the sabbath, but do not participate of the mysteries in the manner usual among Christians in general (Socrates Scholasticus. Ecclesiastical History, Book V, Chapter XXII. Excerpted from Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Second Series, Volume 2. Edited by Philip Schaff and Henry Wace. Constantine said he didn’t want anything in common with the Jews as an antisemite so he officially ended the quartodeciman debate later after his Easter Sunday &Good Friday decree my point is we still could of had a Holy Week Palm Sunday then celebrated the Christian Passover as the real Good Friday regardless of what day followed by honoring the resurrection on a Sunday or 1st day of the week on the feast of first fruits which is the actual day he rose as Paul calls Christ the first fruits which is always the first Sunday after Passover so why did we retain Pentecost but not Passover or other feasts when Polycarp and many Eastern churches observed the Christian Passover on Passover ? PLEASE give me your insights !! Thanks

[@susand3668]

Dear Joshuablessed, there are so many topics here that you have raised. I hope that you have had many (if not most) of them answered? I'm praying for you.

[@ronaldeglewski3073]

@@susand3668 Constantine allowed all religions to be practiced , and only sat on a couple of councils because there were allot of bickering between the Bishops and he sat on them , yes he did practiced the sun god but became Christian , the End .

[@tonyl3762]

Not sure why getting so caught up on the Sabbath and Easter. Does the Church have the authority to settle such things or not?

[@elizabethking5523]

@joshuablessed77, hey friend!😊 I read your comment from a year ago. How are your studies going? You had many good questions. I believe you can find these answers!🙏🏻 Have you thought of finding a knowledgeable Catholic priest to begin a dialogue with? You could attend a RCIA class at just about any Catholic Church? Seek out the best teachers in the Catholic faith, you can go to class and not join, just to learn? Going to say a prayer for you 😊🙏🏻 Blessings!

[@joshuablessed7782]

@@elizabethking5523 Hello I’m non denominational but been looking into catholicism and orthodoxy in search of an apostolic church because of my reading of the church fathers and apostolic succession etc but a few disturbing things have prevented me from converting such as the story Barlaam and Josaphat how St Josaphat(separate from the other Josaphat who died trying to unite east and west)this one supposedly lived long before became a saint but is really a christianized rebranding of buddha how can that be regardless of the beauty of the story ? is he venerated in catholicism today ? also the acceptance of nude scenes depicted by michelangelo and the fact that one of the men depicted was a priest who condemned his nude art as blasphemous so he was depicted in a hell scene where a snake is biting his genitals michelangelo also made a nude sculpture of Jesus Christ I just find it grotesque also why some wiccans and witches pray to saints and Mary does this show Christians should not partake of praying to saints since pagans do it or does it simply showing satan has a way of counterfeiting it also how in some cultures Mary is more popular than Jesus is this a form of modern Collyridianism ? Pagans acknowledge this and say Isis or other mother goddess deities reappear over time and became known in the person as Mary Why doesn’t the church do a better Job of educating people on proper veneration bahaiforums.com/t/the-buddha-is-a-catholic-saint.7569/ en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biagio_da_Cesena amp.theguardian.com/artanddesign/jonathanjonesblog/2017/feb/27/michelangelos-naked-risen-christ-national-gallery www.religiousforums.com/threads/any-mary-worshippers-here.79561/

[@nosuchthing8]

More pluses than minuses via Constantine

[@genemyersmyers6710]

Poor Joe .

[@jamessheffield4173]

The discussion should be was the Constantine settlement for the best?

[@silveriorebelo2920]

was the reformation schism for the best? - vociferating lies against the faith and practice of the Church in order to defame it has been for the best?

[@jamessheffield4173]

@@silveriorebelo2920 It brought Europe into the Modern Age. Hebrews 9:10 “Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.”

[@frekigeri4317]

@@jamessheffield4173has the “modern age” been for the good, lol

[@jamessheffield4173]

@@frekigeri4317 Reformation brought the Bible to the people. Enlightenment had some problems.

[@frekigeri4317]

⁠@@jamessheffield4173it didn’t make them better Christian’s though, it just caused a lot of confusion. Btw, the reformation did nothing to bring the Bible to the people, that was all the movable type printing press. Pretty sure the gospel is spread by preaching as well, by people competent to do so, not by making copies of scripture.

[@caman171]

for me its very simple. did the apostles build grand cathderals with gold and marble> did they wear fancy vestments? did people go to them for absolution? did they pray to "saints"? did they have statues? sorry i think Jesus and the apostles wouldve been appalled at all those things. clearly the scriptures teach that now that the curtain in the temple has been torn in two, there is no more barrier between God and men. all believers are priests now. the "early" church had errors before the new testament was even completed, look at pauls rebuke of them for being disgraceful in celebrating communion. so constantine isnt even a factor for me. the moment we stray from the simple message of free salvation not based on works, is the momenet we walk away from what Jesus accomplished for us, whether it happens in the year 40 AD or 2024 AD. i honeslty dont think the apostles could walk into a catholic church and be pleased. there is nothing "holy" about a supposed saints bones in a golden box being venerated or kissed. st peters was built on indulgences, so people paid the church for their sins. that is not the gospel

[@laudamuste8261]

Faith of the Early Fathers by Jurgens.

[@caman171]

@@laudamuste8261 not sure how that applies to anything i said

[@laudamuste8261]

Much of what you have written is how the Church has been misunderstood for many years. The book that I recommended will give you an overview of the first 700 years. Within its pages you will find the words of the men who spread the Faith during those years. Some people are very closed to hearing the truth. I only gave you the book title because I thought that if you were sincerely seeking the truth you could read the book and find it within its pages. If you go to Rome you will find that the pillars and columns in many of the churches were taken from the pagan temples and re-purposed for the glory of God, Who conquered them. Additionally, if we believe that this is the way God has asked us to worship Him, why would we not have glorious vestments and beautiful churches in which to celebrate these ceremonies? If you truly seek the Truth, then you must come at last to the conclusion that there is only one Truth and it is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. I pray you find the Truth you seek.

[@caman171]

@@laudamuste8261 i am not bashing you, i love you as a believer in Christ. however, saying "pillars" were reused from pagan temples doesnt cut it. the vast majority of cathderals were built long after the late roman period, just the national shrine in washingtod dc cost over 200 million dollars when adjusted for inflation. the great cathdrals of europe were built off the backs of the poor thinking they were gaining favor with God by giving all they had. even today u can go to mexico and see churches gilded in gold that was plundered from the maya and aztecs. i am sorry, but the apostles did not get rich from preaching the gospel, they built no fancy churches and wore the same street clothes everyone else did. just as Jesus got angry and cleansed the temple at jerusalem, so too would he cleans any cathedral. in fact the reason God allowed the destruction of the temple is because temples are no longer needed under the new covenant. keep in mind, that any organization can change DRAMATICALLY very fast, just looke at the mormon church. they arent even 200 yrs old, and 90% of the doctrines they now teach, are no original to their church. and where dod Jesus asku us to worship Him with "glorious vestments and beautiful churches in which to celebrate these ceremonies"? you say "there is only one Truth and it is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic." but i say there is only one Truth and it is Christ Jesus. he alone is holy, He alone is universal and He alone is what the apostles taught and died for

[@jacobhilderman]

I am an anabaptist. Jesus seemed to care more about how we loved people than what we believed. I don’t think people should even really identify as Christian, I think you should ask my neighbour if my life reflects Christ. The church seemed to start submitting their allegiance to the earthly rulers above God with Constantine. I honestly don’t care too much about theology but I don’t want to be a part of an institution that supports “just war” or is ok with being married to the state. In fact I think I’m more tolerant to Catholic theology over Calvinist theology.

[@tonywallens217]

Jesus cared about both. His whole life and work was a revelation of who he was. It’s our faith in him that saves us. And love is an essential part of that faith. You cannot love someone who you don’t first believe in.

[@mikelopez8564]

@jacob- absolutely true about love. “Now faith, hope and love remain, these three, and the greatest of these is love” st Paul. But how does that fit with Protestant theology? They dismiss any act, good or bad, as hateful to God. The ancient and apostolic Churches agree we have to live our faith in love for our salvation. Huge blind spot for our Protestant friends.

[@jacobhilderman]

@@mikelopez8564 I actually have become Catholic in the last year haha. I will say that anabaptists don’t really hold to sola fide. To anabaptists, works are sorta the most important part of their faith. If you read the schlightheim confession (spelled it wrong sorry), which was their statement of faith when they began, there wasn’t really any theology in it. It instead described a lifestyle.

[@mikelopez8564]

@@jacobhilderman I did not know that about anabaptists. Interesting. My apologies and welcome home.

[@jacobhilderman]

@@mikelopez8564 all the things the anabaptists saw wrong in Catholics were also present in Protestantism, like violence, abusing power, they didn’t like how Catholics and prots would be nationalists when Jesus said “my kingdom is not of this world” and so on. I’m still as anabaptist someone could be while holding to Catholic beliefs. I feel like my anabaptist background helps me understand pope Francis better.

[@kennetheriksen1091]

Joe: How do you engage with chapter 10 of Triumph of Christianity (which is called 'Constantine's very mixed blessings'? Talking about a "catholic church" from the period of which you are talking about (or a protestant church from before 1500) is very anachronistic. You are not making a good case here, I think.

[@joecastillo8798]

@kennethericksen1091 Ken, If you are willing to read the fantasy you've quoted, then you'll be unable to understand facts. Take the following clear passages: MATTHEW 16:18-19 18. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. 19. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and WHATEVER you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Infallibility involves a constant access to truth originating from God Himself, notwithstanding any level of knowledge or holiness of an individual Pope. We see in Scripture that the ONE CHURCH founded by Jesus is forever guaranteed with the truth, just as in Peter's time, through each successor to the Petrine Office: JOHN 16:13-15 13. When the Spirit of truth comes, HE WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL THE TRUTH; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14. He will glorify me, because he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15. All that the Father has is mine. For this reason I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you. . Jesus reaffirms the gift of infallibility given to His one Church: ▪︎JOHN 17:17-19 17. Sanctify them in TRUTH. Your word is TRUTH. 18. Just as you have sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19. And it is for them that I sanctify myself, so that they, too, may be sanctified in TRUTH. That is why St. Paul, with full apostolic authority, declares with confidence why the Church built by Jesus is infallible: ▪︎1TIMOTHY 3:15 15. But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is THE CHURCH of the living God, the PILLAR AND FOUNDATION OF TRUTH. What is the benefit of having infallibility? To do the will of God, not of man, through infallible truth which unites in one divine purpose, as expressed in: ▪︎JOHN 17:21-23 21. so that they MAY ALL BE ONE, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. 22. And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may BE ONE, as WE ARE ONE, 23. I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to PERFECTION AS ONE, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me. How does infallibility take place? Typically it's an affirmation of doctrine when something is being questioned or not clearly understood. This gift is given to the Church by Christ through Peter, who is given the keys to the kingdom of heaven (see Isaiah 22) and who is declared the ROCK (see also John 1:42 where the Aramaic term Cephas or Rock is given to him by Jesus). Remember when Jesus had a private meeting with Peter and gave him an important command? ▪︎LUKE 22:32 32. but I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail, and once you have recovered, you in your turn must strengthen your brothers.' Such prayer continues to be effective on each one of Peter's successors. May God bless your discernment.