Grafting Series Lesson #8, Cleft and Whip & Tongue Grafts, How to Make

How to make two very useful grafts, the Cleft and the Whip & Tongue. Commonly used In grafting fruit trees with Dormant scions.
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[@ericrosales9722]

3 years and numerous grafts later, this is by far, the best whip and tongue tutorial ive seen online. I especially like the detail about the segmentations to 1/3rds to make that maximized fit. Great work and thank you again for this video!

[@danielle2451]

You explaining the knife pressure is so useful. I had trouble with that. Helps as much as practice

[@colinhall87]

Thank you for contributing to the free accessible information on KZbin, I appreciate what you do and respect your lifestyle.

[@SkillCult]

You are very welcome. Thanks for watching :)

[@hanh9981]

Thank you, the 1/3 measurement for whip and tongue technique

[@stephenlane80]

This is an excellent demonstration, thank you

[@BlackJack-sn7yr]

Thank you so much... Very inspiring and fully of knowledge... 👍👍

[@SusanneSvensdotter]

I have never grafted in my life and was just given some grafts from a friend's apple tree. Thanks to your videos, I have now tried with several of the methods that you explained. I thank you for your informative and easy to understand explanations. I will now go on to try and shape my young trees according to your other videos.

[@SkillCult]

That's great. Good luck. It's not that hard once you get the cuts down. I still get unexplained failures, but it's not rocket science. high five :)

[@chlouis4487]

Merci beaucoup pour ces précieuses explications .

[@AliGendeel]

Thank you ... very clear ... well done

[@khetibadiwithjay]

Very clear and language is very much unterstable for me

[@michaelleidy2512]

I've really enjoyed many of your videos, but all the ones on grafting have been a great help. The one on knife safety probably saved me from at least one bad cut which is important because my grafting knife was scalpel sharp thanks to one of your knife sharpening videos. This year I had about a dozen whip and tongue, cleft grafts take. Very exciting stuff! It's helped me propagate some trees planted by my grandfather 30-40 years ago but which were growing on property that had passed out of the family (I got permission to go back and take cuttings). Thanks for putting it all out there and keep doing what you're doing.

[@SkillCult]

Thank you, I love to hear that kind of feedback. More on knives and knife safety to come! :)

[@44Jupiter44]

Such fascinating stuff. Thank you for the video series. I've learned so much, trees are a huge passion of mine and this has helped further than for me

[@mincaretreat5109]

thanks a lot for your videos, helped me !

[@gardeningwithgabriel6698]

Dude, thanks so much. Can't wait to try them out. Really worth watching. Style' good too.

[@stephenluna7932]

Thank you for this series

[@stevesoutdoorworld2248]

great info thanks for showing.

[@stevensmallwood1477]

Thank you. Learned a lot from this video!!!

[@mateoteo5348]

Greetings from Uruguay! I'm really enjoying this series, thank you!

[@SkillCult]

Hi Mateo. I hope it's useful for you :)

[@wendyburston3132]

Practice practice practice!

[@iamboredambored2966]

This is a really great video, and I'm glad I found your channel. I guarantee that I will be going on a watching spree of your videos in the coming days.

[@SkillCult]

I like binge watchers :D

[@downeastprimitiveskills7688]

Inspiring! Back from our last burn, woffed down some dinner and out to rock rake my driveway, then I get to go do a few grafts just as the sun sets. My axe cordwood pile is not growing much, :(

[@SkillCult]

Ha ha, mine isn't either. I better get out there this evening. Juggle those priorities.

[@oxbowfarm5803]

Good stuff.

[@anglerpocky]

Just found your channel, it's great! I really enjoy your videos--keep it up!

[@SkillCult]

Thanks much!

[@jonnsmusich]

Excellent: Thank you.

[@valley3621]

Excellent information, thank you for the instruction.

[@OHBuckNow]

Thank you.

[@SkillCult]

You're welcome!

[@rowgli]

Sounds and looks like you live in a beautiful part of the world

[@jonathancox9501]

nice one.

[@jalalalhasy4705]

Thanks bro

[@candyman5749]

I practiced doing whip and tongue on some twigs lying on the ground, and found out that it is much more difficult than it looks; and also more painful, after cutting my thumb open. I think I'll just stick to using my grafting tool that I bought from Amazon.

[@MrChickadee]

great tutorial, like mini scarf joints, love it.

[@SkillCult]

That would make a fun video, making timberframe joinery graft unions.

[@joshuaderstine4133]

Speaking about knife safety, one thing a person can do is make sure their knife is sharp. A dull knife requires a lot more pressure to make a cut and it's harder to control.

[@djamelsibachir1417]

Greeting from 🇩🇿 Good stuff too, I really learned a lot of , thanks.

[@SkillCult]

Hi djamel, thanks!

[@IHav2BlackCats]

Awesome, as a result of this video i just realized i made many "short" grafts. Probably 50/50 short vs long contact. I was working with small amounts of wood though. Couldnt cut off a ton of buds. I noticed while grafting too the longer contact ones felt better, i was also putting my tongue much more towards the center. I seem to have gotten away with most of it but when i can next year i will make sure its better. When i have a surplus of scion i will be making as many long grafts as possible. Great stuff.

[@SkillCult]

Well, you can get away with all those things, sometimes, but the more things you do that are ideal the more likely you are to succeed I guess is how I see it.

[@IHav2BlackCats]

I agree with that. On a seperate note i now have 200 or 300 gallons of char from less than 10 burns in a "massive" pit i dug. I am about halfway through the wood i have collected so far. I think all of it was from in my neighborhood. 2 trees came down and i got the tree companies to dump it in my yard. Just gotta cut the bigger stuff smaller. Hard to burn 12 inch plus diameter stuff and call it ideal. Trying to decide how much to incorporate in a few projects im working on. I have a blueberry bed, a mini orchard bed a raspberry bed and of course the raised beds in the garden. What im most keen on is the mini orchard bed. 20 to 25 feet by 60 feet. Thinking 12 to 24 inches down im going to till. I have junk fill dirt to start with rocks and clay. I have like 10 yards of leaves and 10 yards of compost to till in, but i cant decide how much char. Probably till in some woodchips i have lying around as well.

[@SkillCult]

It seems like a good opportunity to experiment in your mini orchard plot using different amounts and depths. What is the orchard plan? If you do trelissed trees or rows with dwarf stock, you might consider amending just strips. I think the oblique cordon (diagonal cordon) system is pretty cool for small space and ease of management. You can plant 18 to 24 inches apart and 6 feet between rows, preferably North to South. Conventional wisdom would probably shy away from putting char on blueberries and cane berries, which like acidic soil. It might be a cool experiment though. I also wonder if you could acidify biochar soil. The ash is one thing, but people have told me that it permanently raises ph. I'm skeptical of everything so of course I think it would be an interesting experiment. I think the more of all kinds of stuff you throw in the better probably. I suspect that the terra preta and african dark earth soils are just garbage dumps with charcoal, or charring the garbage and wood together in pits and leaving it, probably latrines too. It just makes sense. I have dry summers and the top foot and more of soil dries out pretty thoroughly. so, I'm about burying the stuff deep. The terra preta soils and the african dark earth are both very deep, I think up to two meters! I've been into doing stuff for trees three feet deep and the garden preferably two feet deep, but I haven't done any comparative testing yet. I need labor and a biochar crusher.

[@IHav2BlackCats]

I was thinking a style like dave wilsons just plant trees practically on top of eachother and keep them pruned back hard. Letting one or two of the clear favorites get a bit more room down the line. Its not the most ideal spot as i need to take out some branches or maybe whole trees in the creekbed right beside it. I uploaded a video about the garden yesterday you can kinda see what it looks like. The whole lot was wooded and my dad took out everything 15 years ago but left everything in the creek. Once the trees realized there was alot of light they started reaching for it and some lean a bit. Will have to talk him into cutting a few down or trimming some. Trimming will be hard as we cant climb and dont have a pole pruner thing... We'll see. I might try to experiment with some of it with depths or percent of charcoal.

[@SkillCult]

Looks like a pretty big lot, but that's a lot of trees too. There are refined systems for spacing and pruning close trees for high density production farming. The reference book for that is Intensive Orchard Management. it's out of print and very expensive. I have a copy, but haven't really read it. I'm tempted to sell it actually because it's worth so much. You can find some info online though on tall spindle and other high intensity methods. I'm sure they use dwarf stocks though.

[@billmccaffrey1977]

I watched a forestry video where they repaired tree damage with bridge grafts. These methods combined with using two scions in a cleft graft raise the question: If both grafts take would it make sense to join the two scions cutting the lesser and grafting it to the scion you want to keep? This would give you twice as much base in the branch adding strength and some food resource. Your thoughts.

[@SkillCult]

I really don't know. Seems possible though.

[@gradinaexotica356]

Hi , can i take and use a scion from 1 or 2 year old tree ( apple in my case) ? the scion have to be from a tree that was with fruit or can be use from a young tree ? Thank you very much, Greetings from Romania.

[@gardeningjournal7555]

This is very helpful. The only grafting technique I’ve used is cleft/wedge like you did here. I’m doing it on Pawpaws and I have successfully grafted 2 branches so far. One was done in Spring 2017 and the other was done in Spring 2018. I did 3 on one tree and one ended up taking in 2018. I’m wondering if it was because I didn’t make the cambium long enough. I may have also widdled the wood. I will be looking at this video again many times before I graft again this Spring. I have a bunch of scionwood I’m storing in the fridge. I ordered some sawdust so I can use that instead of the damp paper towel.

[@SkillCult]

It's an effective and easy graft. Longer is better, because there is more contact and it's more rigid when it is wrapped. Grafts fail for many reasons, so it's impossible to say what it might be. Double check the cambium layer. It really doesn't matter what the wood is like if the cambiums come together, but that usually means flat cuts. I like damp sawdust a lot better for sure.

[@gardeningjournal7555]

SkillCult thank you! I am having trouble with wanting to graft a seedling pawpaw I have. It’s over 6ft tall at its tallest point and grew a bunch of new shoots. However they say with pawpaw seedlings that the fruit can be seedy, small and the flavor and texture can be eh. I do have 6 grafted varieties that are for sure going to make good fruit, good yields etc. I guess it just sucks seeing a tree get so big and then chopping off branches to graft ya know? Especially if they all don’t take. I have so much scionwood though so I guess I should just experiment and let it go if the tree looks a little stunted from chopping off branches and grafting onto it.

[@growingyourfoodinyourownba1221]

Thank you for your video great information! Although it's best to graft to an apple tree in early spring, is it possible to do grafting in the month of June. I purchased scionwood early this year and have quite a bit left over. I hate to see them go to waste.

[@SkillCult]

Yes, do it right now, paint the whole scion to seal it and shade it until it starts to grow. Be careful that the shading doesn't disturb the graft. I think some use a paper bag, but I'm not sure. I've garfted in a heat wave in July with old scion wood and got about 50%. The last video was supposed to be about stuff like that, but I never shot it.

[@growingyourfoodinyourownba1221]

Thank you so much for your reply. It's encouraging to know that you were able to graft in July and got 50% results. I'll keep you posted on my outcome.

[@SecondNatureFarm]

Another awesome video! You made reference to a forthcoming "aftercare" video - is that still forthcoming or can I just not find it? I'd love to hear your thoughts on what type of medium to pack the benchgrafts (soil vs wood chips vs newspaper, etc), temperatures and duration for healing, and how soon I can plant out in the garden bed. Thank you!

[@SkillCult]

I never did make the last two videos in this series. After putting so much effort into these and having them perform relatively poorly, I think I've just lost any enthusiasm for finishing it. For me, they actually have performed decent, but that's not saying much. I think anything you put them in that keeps the roots damp is fine and I've used everything from sawdust, to rotten wood, to soil and potting mix. I don't usually heal them first, but it's okay as long as the grafts are wrapped well enough that you can handle them during moving and planting, which they should be. That depends more on your weather. Most temperate fruit trees can take a few degrees of frost fine and I've had them go through multiple freezes without issue. For unwrapping, as long as the wrapping is not constricting growth you can leave it on if you want. having some stretch in the material during growth is good for that reason and why I like plastic bag strips and grape budding tape. Often I can just leave mine on until they break down and fall off. Usually you can safely unwrap by late summer, but it depends on the graft and growth rate as well as any stresses like wind and animals. You can also unwrap and re-wrap them just in case.

[@SecondNatureFarm]

@@SkillCult Thank you for the quick and concise response! 14k+ views and counting sounds damn good to me especially when I figure that the people interested in grafting their own fruit trees represents a tiny fraction of the overall people interested in growing their own food. Regardless, thanks again and know that these are videos for posterity!

[@bryanessig8814]

funny; I have a red Grafting/Budding knife, but I have lost my bright yellow floral knife. I have lost enough tools at this point that I am considering painting everything fluorescent orange. When (if) I find my brown and black camp axe that bad boy will probably get painted toxic green.

[@ericrosales9722]

Excellent. On the whip and tongue, what side does the flat side of a beveled knife face when you're creating the slot ?

[@SkillCult]

flat side is usually down. You can use a regular pocket knife though if it's sharp.

[@jamesmacnee655]

Awesome video. Thanks. How long does it take for the grafts to heal, so you can take off the tape? I'm grafting apple, plum and peach.

[@SkillCult]

They can heal very fast as far as having enough of a union to start growing. As far as the mechanical strength, that depends on the weather, the graft union quality and type, wind and other mechanical stress etc. It's safest to leave them a while, at least into late summer if they aren't strangling. The main thing is to watch them for choking. If the tape is stretching it's fine to leave it, even until fall. If it is constricting the growth and making a skinny spot, unwrap it and if in doubt, you can re-wrap it to be sure. Sometimes a graft will seem pretty good, but if the wind is high and it has a lot of growth to blow around in the wind, it can break, so better safe than sorry until you get a feel for it. Constriction is the only real problem, so just go by that.

[@jamesmacnee655]

Thanks for your reply. Keep up the good work with your videos. Definitely one of my favorite channels.

[@ryanleary3588]

is there a reason(s) to perform a cleft vs a whip and tongue? when do you choose one versus the other?

[@SkillCult]

Cleft is easier to learn. I ten to use cleft when the scion and stock sizes are mismatched, but you can still use whip and tongue, and I do sometimes. If the stock and scion are matched, I'll almost always use whip and tongue. It doesn't matter all that much. Whip and tongue can be cleaner and faster healing, without the big split in the stock, so that's nice.

[@ts694]

Thanks. Video idea- I'd like to hear your philosophy on structural considerations when grafting to adult trees like Frankentree and other sizes. With targeted future architecture being the focus. Also, any clever solutions to wounds that you've figured out. I've been dreaming about grafting larger pieces of bark over wounds to help them seal up fast. Perhaps with some carving or shaping of the wood underneath to help the bark succeed. For instance on the stub end of a large cleft graft. Your video on reworking your friends tree covers some of the architectural considerations for that size tree.

[@SkillCult]

I'm hoping to shoot the frameworking video in the next day or two. Often people are working with neglected trees, so there is a lot of decisions about bringing them back under control, often requiring large cuts. Beyond that, the main issue is to keep the grafts in close to the branch structure. Think of it as replacing the fruiting wood Anything that forms useful structure and is not fruiting can usually be left, unless, again it needs to be removed to pull the tree back into a practical shape. I'll talk about that stuff if I can come up with examples.

[@rafaelramos441]

I have been successful on a number of occasions, after accidentally catching and dislodging tree trunk bark while mowing. I immediately very tightly taped the bark back in it's original location and position. If one side of the bark is still attached the success rate is very high. it's lower if the bark is completely detached.

[@johnlord8337]

It appears that the greater the surface area of the meeting cambium and bark layers is ... the greater the healing and acceptance of the graft will be.

[@SkillCult]

Good point. If well executed, a short graft will have plenty enough, but it certainly doesn't hurt any to have more and that extra surface area is going to become more useful if only part of the graft is aligned. I'll add that to my notes for a version 2.0

[@mcgeebag1]

If these grafts take and midsummer you have some shoots growing on the scion but also shoots growth from the rootstock, would you remove the rootstock shoots or leave it until the tree is dormant in the winter? Sorry if this question is answered elsewhere in your videos.

[@SkillCult]

As soon as the graft is growing strong, remove the competing shoots from the scions. The earlier the better. I never got the last vids done to finish off this series.

[@mcgeebag1]

SkillCult Thanks for the speedy reply! I'm gonna go do that now👍👍👍

[@thedr00]

how important is it to keep the equipment sterile? I mean in general it's always good practise to keep blades and tools clean, but if you're grafting multiple scions in a session do you alcohol wipe or wash the knife for each graft, or is it not that big of a deal?

[@SkillCult]

I think it's a good idea if you think there might be any disease spread. If you are grafting a lot of stuff onto the same tree, you're going to spread the disease anyway. If I'm working with sterile stock and new one year seedlings I wouldn't worry about it either. If grafting a bunch of random scions from unknown sources to individual rootstocks or miscellaneous trees, yeah, you should preferably sterilize between varieties or cuts. I usually use hydrogen peroxide 3% in spray bottle. Not that I've been told that works, I just assume it works. I'll be sure to include that if I do a revision.

[@flyazzplayboy]

Lizard going up the tree scared the... Never mind. Thanks for sharing

[@ganni025]

hi, just saw your video and have a quick question. when using a rootstock of Morus alba and grafting it with Morus nigra. If the Morus alba is without roots could it still accept the graft and root.

[@SkillCult]

maybe, but I would not bet on it. If all is dormant and you can keep it that way until you can get roots on the cutting, I don't see why it would not work, but it seems dicey.

[@growingyourfoodinyourownba1221]

Hello Skillcult, just wanted to give you an update on following up on your recommendation. Last month in my comments, I asked you is it possible to do grafting in the month of June, you said "Yes, do it right now, paint the whole scion to seal it and shade it until it starts to grow" The graft was an success! I used the whip graft and have 2 inches of new growth. Do I take the grafting tape off now or wait? Also, I still have scion wood, will it keep until next spring in the refrigerator? Thank you for your help!

[@SkillCult]

Excellent! No, don't keep it, graft it now. if you don't have the place you want, put it on another tree and grow scions there for grafting later. Don't unwrap it till the fall unless it starts to constrict, and then you can always re-wrap it to make sure. It is weak for a while and it won't probably make a lot of growth this year.

[@seandugan8628]

Awesome series! Is it totally insane to attempt a whip and tongue with only one bud on the scion? My first year grafting, and I should have ordered more scionwood due to my poor cutting skills so far - so curious if it's a bad idea to eke it out like that.

[@SkillCult]

that can be fine. You do want a little bulk to the cutting so it has enough resources. Just really protect it and seal it and good chance it will take. It is very common to do benchgrafting with one bud. I prefer two for insurance, but I've done one a lot.

[@seandugan5664]

@@SkillCult thanks! I'll try some both ways. Appreciate the feedback.

[@dirkmoolman]

At 2 mins 10 secs into the video - that is how I got stitches in my one hand. I was holding the stick with my one hand, and pushing the knife with the other hand. But the knife cut sideways, and slipped, and I pushed it right into my finger, right up to the bone inside my finger (could see the bone inside the cut). So just be careful with that move.

[@SkillCult]

Im surprised I didn't give the usual safety speach on that cut, because like you did, that is a very common mistake/injury. I'm sure I covered what goes wrong elsewhere in the series. The mistake most make is holding the end of the knife handle and just pushing. Having the hand over the blade and over the cut and stock end, provides a stop if the split should travel through faster than expected. the stock hits the hand which provides a stop and the blade can only travel less than an inch. the other option is to use a piece of thin wood or cardstock with a hole in it, but it shouldn't be neccessary if the hand is over the top like that.

[@77grundy]

I have trouble with a whip n tongue graft sometimes. If I get the two sloping cuts to match on rootstock and scion, and then cut the tongues in, when I push them together the ends of the sloping cuts go past each other at the top and bottom, so that it's touching bark. I can't quite figure out why this happens. Either I'm not starting the tongues in the same place on each, or they are different depths maybe? Any pointers?

[@SkillCult]

Yeah, that happens to me sometimes. It's not really a problem. If they aren't overhanging much, you can just leave them alone and they will eventually heal over. I just snip off the overhanging ends and wrap it. Set the knife on the scion and push lightly to snip the end off and leave a little of the cut on the scion underneath exposed like a little half moon shape. They'll heal up in the first season. Also, it's not at all necessary to use all the tongue that you cut. The unused split part will re-fuse together. So, just slide it on till one end matches up and wrap it, or push them all the way and snip it off.

[@lisawells4958]

So do you have to make your cut through a bud on both pieces? Or are you trying to avoid cutting through buds so you can cut through areas with no buds? Also I didn’t notice you putting a tongue on the scion, only the stock. Did I miss something? You only put a tongue through the stock?

[@SkillCult]

If you want a bud to grow, don't cut through it. Otherwise, it doesn't matter too much. definitely put a tongue in both.

[@newbuzzfarm2441]

Where is your homestead located?

[@SkillCult]

Northern California coastal ranges 1800 feet

[@jiggsle]

I did my first graft using the cleft method. Got cut.

[@SkillCult]

Bummer, hope the graft takes!

[@rafaelramos441]

It's important to use a very sharp knife and only light pressure when making the cuts. Strong pressure is very prone to slip and lose control. These cuts are ultimately not for everyone. Special notice to his slicing and rocking motions to lessen the force needed to make the cuts.

[@mikemccormack7056]

Thanks so much for this and all your other excellent videos. I think I lost six hours to your channel today. I'm typing this as I look out over the lights of a 20m-person city (Shanghai) with hands that are baby-soft thanks to three years away from their last contact with an axe. Any chance you'd like to trade places for a couple of weeks? There's not a lot of countryside but you will enjoy the food...

[@SkillCult]

Ha ha, I always feel like a puss when my hands get like that lol. I bet the food is good. Well, you can always re-evaluate your priorities :).

[@mikemccormack7056]

Miles ahead of you: I'll be back in the wild by the end of April 2018. And hoping to be in shape for the 2019 cordwood challenge. Please keep up great work you've offered on this channel and, if you can (or if youtube growth economics don't prevent it), don't give in to the temptation to edit out your thoughts about process and approach. You're giving a fantastic supplement/contrast to the people who are creating videos that focus more tightly on techniques and outcomes. What they do is also very valuable but the depth that you're bringing to the subjects you tackle is highly appreciated and would be missed if you really changed tack.

[@SkillCult]

I'm not sure I can help including all the whys and stuff about context. I may do some videos that are basically supplemental or quick versions, but rather to complement the in depth stuff than replace it. Skills are important, but motivation and context are really sort of key.

[@muhammadnatsir6172]

Subtitle Indonesia

[@leethurston4774]

If your scion has a terminal bud, should you take the bud off or use it as is? Very informative channel, thanks.

[@SkillCult]

You can use them. sometimes they are flowering buds, especially from trees that tend toward tip bearing. but as long as you pick off the flowers it can work fine. I don't tend to favor terminal buds though.

[@leethurston4774]

Thanks, that was quick. It is terminal bearing heartnut. So just pick the flower off to prevent it from trying to fruit. I know that all of the energy needs to go to the graft in the first year.