Great AMERICAN Pianos | Steinway B Vs. Baldwin F vs. Mason & Hamlin BB

[@amirmotahari6186]

finally not a salesman but a musician who knows classical music and knows how to test, push the piano to its limits and then comment on the! great job!

[@AtlanticMusicCtr]

Glad you liked it!

[@GrotrianSeiler]

I’ve always been puzzled why the Steinway is as popular as it is. The Baldwin is the clear winner here, the Mason being a close second. Very nice demonstration and presentation of these instruments.

[@AtlanticMusicCtr]

Thank you! Baldwin certainly made a great piano in there day.

[@jacobneal5388]

Baldwin will always be my favorite. I’ve played many Steinways that I have adored but I have always gone back to Baldwins. I played a 1947 model M in a college practice room. It was best to heck and slightly out of tune in the top octave. It even had several cracks in the sound board. It still managed to have a powerful and warm tone with an extremely rich midrange, and a bass that rivaled that of the Steinway L in the room beside it. The treble was clear singing and the sustain was absolutely gorgeous. For a 5’2” piano the mode M is the best baby grand I have played.

[@AtlanticMusicCtr]

Baldwin made a great piano! Our lead tech here at AMC was the former head of quality control at Baldwin's Arkansas factory, and our founder is a former Baldwin concert artist. We love Baldwins here.

[@MarianoPerez]

Wow, that Baldwin sounds amazing.

[@AtlanticMusicCtr]

Thanks! We do our best

[@CharlesSzczepanek]

I'm pretty sure that's a photo of my hands at 0:53 lol. Thanks for using when talking about the BB. It's a favorite piano of mine!

[@AtlanticMusicCtr]

Really!? That's so funny!

[@AtlanticMusicCtr]

Your playing is beautiful by the way! Just subbed

[@bachanabendeliani239]

All three of these instruments are true treasures, with outstanding tonal qualities; however, if I had to choose, my favorite would be the Baldwin❤

[@theUrbanJoe]

My grandmother studied at conservatory and taught for years on her beautiful 1924 M&H AA. I find the older M&H's to be far superior in build quality, beauty of tone, playability and also balance/volume control... they are only limited by the pianists ability & musicianship. Overall, they have very few equals/rivals and best the rest. (ie. comparing pianos of equal design, physical condition and voicing/regulation/tuning etc.) And today, M&H are once again incorporating leading technology to make their older, proven designs better than ever. M&H company is back in proper good hands once again and it significantly elevates the whole craft and art of modern piano playing.

[@AtlanticMusicCtr]

They are certainly great pianos. We've rebuilt many a Mason & Hamlin. They are a joy to work on and play.

[@hastensavoir7782]

What do you think of the new Mason & Hamlins? With the Wessell, Nickel & Gross actions?

[@theUrbanJoe]

I have actually not had the pleasure or privilege to actually experience the carbon fiber actions. If they improve upon the Renner actions I can’t imagine how amazing they must be!

[@zackeryhardy9504]

@@theUrbanJoe What they are is more consistent. They don't necessarily play any different. When people do feel a difference its usually the geometry and the fact that each note feels like the note next to it. The parts are more customizable easier to maintain and a lot more flexible. But they are by design meant to feel like any other piano action part. We could have made our parts stiffer than any wood part in existance, but we have chosen to emulate the best out there and take advantage of the consistancy afforded by a different manufacturing process. A process which actually turns out to be significantly more expensive and labor intensive to work with. We did make wood parts for a short period of time after we started having issues with renner, but we opted to try to go for an improvement rather than just staying with the status quo. Essentially what we did was take the ideal stiffness and weight profiles of a standard wooden shank and use newer materials to achieve more consistency. Now that isn't to say this cannot be achieved with wood parts. But you have to go through your parts and through out the bad ones. And when you actually start measuring those shanks you realize 2 things. 1 they don't make shanks as well as they did in the 1920s. The stiffest shanks we measured were a tie between an old set from the 1920s off of a Steinway and a 90s era Baldwin which unfortunately was just way too large which resulted in more mass in the action. Now that being said we essentially designed the WNG actions with rebuilders in mind so you have a greater degree of flexibility. This allows a rebuilder to have a much easier time fixing common manufacturing errors from previous eras. Most of the new york manufacturers had issues in how they assembled their actions relative to their arms so you have design inconsistencies which often result in a horrible playing action that is not to the original design spec. Being able to customize the parts allow you to redo that geometry to get a good playing piano action or even to experiment. This can allow a technician or rebuilder to reduce the overall mass in the action which in general is what is responsible for an action feeling super heavy. A lot of people look at how much weight it takes to press a key down as a determining factor of a piano feeling heavy and people will use weights to measure it. But mass and inertia work differently than most people measure. If you have a high mass action you may have the action weighed off to 50 grams which is considered to be light. But when you press the key at forte that may increase to 70 grams and up to 100 grams of force at fortissimo. Meanwhile you can have an action with a very low amount of mass and when you play the action you may even weight it off to be really heavy at 60 grams which is about the maximum that any tech would consider to be acceptable. But when you play at forte you only increase to 65 grams and fortissimo may be a max of 70 grams. And despite the action being weight off heavier, the action will be perceived as being lighter. There is a tech named Edd Mcmarrow who has done some interesting experiments where he uses a super light weight hammer and has no balancing weights in the keys. There is very little mass in the action at all and the action overall is at something like 70 grams, but when you play it, it is not tiring to play and it seems to have no upper limit as to how far you can take it. You never get to that point where hitting the keys feels like your fingers are hitting a brick wall. Which is an incredibly interesting observation and the way the geometry is done in that action is absolutely wild. It basically goes against everything taught in most piano technology circles by taking a principle of lowering the mass in the action and taking it to the absolute extreme way beyond what most would consider to be reasonable and the result is actually pretty good. Now that being said, the action is just one aspect of what has been addressed in Masons. Historically speaking in the 1920s they used a curved rib design. Overall through experimentation this has resulted in the most constant and the best potential for a soundboard to project. We have tried the various methods including compression crowning and the humidity based version Steinway used back when the current engineer was part of the falconi piano company. But the issue with the with the crowned rib design of the 1920s is that they utilized the same radius for the entire piano. This is fine for the base, but when the ribs get shorter in the treble, you don't get enough tension on the soundboard and the result was the old 1920s masons were known for having the best base in the business, but a somewhat wanting treble. But by changing the ribbing layout and some other stuff I not allowed to disclose we have been able to pretty well bring out the treble and have made gains in the base as well. Not to mention experimentation that has led to some massive improvements to the smaller pianos. I will tell you this. Its easy to engineer a really good piano at 7 foot and above. But making a good 5 foot 4 piano is incredibly challenging. If you really want to compare companies in their engineering the small pianos are really what separates the boys from the men. Right now industry wide I would say we have never had better quality in pianos that we have today at the top end or even for the price. We are of course still running the company through the engineering department, but you also have some incredibly stuff being done by Steingraber, Bechstein, Fazioli, and Kawai. I personally would say there is a multi company tie for the best piano in the world and we are all working to try to take the crown. But overall its a good friendly competition. If you have the chance come see us at NAMM or PIPA where you can have the chance to play all of the major piano brands side by side. We welcome direct comparisons and wish to see more of them. In particular with our new instruments compared to other new instruments and high end rebuilt instruments. I would say our competitive edge is that the company owner Kirk is a piano technician and started out tuning painos like the rest of us. He basicly just managed to grow his business and invested in a piano store then when Yamaha Discontinued the Marantz Pianocorder invested in a competing player piano company that wasn't exclusive to yamaha pianos. And that took off and they wound up buying Mason & Hamlin since Kirk's brother and business partner Gary were both hudge fans of Mason & Hamlin which has always been a favorite among piano technicians. Being in the technitian side of the business they knew who to hire and what was important for pianos and we have continued down the path which eventually included WNG to where we are today. The thing I like about Kirk is unlike a lot of other company owners who tend to build a shield of managers they work through he is more direct and likes to work in the shop. Considering where he comes from that makes perfect sense and I think it shows in the final product and the experiments we have been able to do. Essentially if you bring an idea to him that makes a significant improvement to the design, it generally will be tried. As such we were able to do some incredible things. We did hard bushings for the WNG composite materials and were told by dozens of material scientists that it was impossible and as it turns out its not impossible. Just really difficult. Kawai gave up on that and the hammer shanks and composite bushings for their composite parts after the same people told them it was impossible and their initial experiments failed. Many of our experiments also failed and never saw the light of day, but the nice thing is that they are done and attempted and often lead to better attempts until they finally are in a polished state and make it onto the main line of pianos, tools, parts, or player systems.

[@susank4878]

The Mason & Hamlin and the Baldwin are definitely superior to the Steinway B, but I think that the Steinway has some more to offer if the voicing is worked over. The edge on it shows up too abruptly. It needs to have a progression from light blows with some cushion in the tone very gradually moving toward the brighter edge at double forte. It's voiced for a big room, at the expense of the voicing for mezzo forte and mezzo piano. If the acoustic in a large hall is proper, that cushion to provide warmth need not reduce the projection of tone to the very back of the hall at all dynamic levels. The agility is just fine, though.

[@brianbennett2397]

Wes, we met at the GFl Hotel in May, 2024. I shared that my father was a concert pianist, and you serenaded Suzanne, et moi, with Clair de Lune! It was heavenly! Thank you. Dr. Brian R Bennett; Vero Beach PS I have my dad's Yamaha S400.

[@AtlanticMusicCtr]

The S400 is a great piano! We have one at our showroom in Melbourne. We will pass on your regards to Wes

[@josephdoran5517]

Great presentation Sir, thank you. The Baldwin sounds like a dream....Can you please tell me the name of the Bernstein piece? Dark, moody, beautiful👍

[@AtlanticMusicCtr]

"Some Other Time" :)

[@michaelcoolen8716]

I don't think that was t a piece by Bernstein. It sounded more like "Piece Peace" by Bill Evans. "

[@ENDED796]

thank you for this video. really interesting how every grandpiano is so distinguish of eachother.

[@AtlanticMusicCtr]

Our pleasure!

[@les867]

What is the name of the piece by Bernstein that you played on the Baldwin, please? Thank you.

[@AtlanticMusicCtr]

"Some Other Time" :)

[@elliot_sander]

I remember playing that Schubert Impromptu in high school! That Steinway was beautiful

[@pianophonics]

Hi Wes, Great work on this video and thanks for sharing. I love the sound - in other words how you managed to capture the recording with such a great accuracy. Would it be possible to share the method and gear you've used to record the pianos? Thanks,

[@AtlanticMusicCtr]

Hi Stan, thanks for the kind words! We used the Earthworks PM40 piano micing system. Very little post work. Slight EQ boost on the highs to breath a little more life into the mic recording, but same treatment on all pianos so as not to affect the comparison.

[@pianophonics]

@@AtlanticMusicCtrThank you Wes for sharing that. Have a good rest of the week.

[@eustachiodemarco]

Mason &Hamlin è il più bello, con suo personale carattere. Sembra un Bechstein.

[@karengustafson1855]

What is the name of the Bernstein piece played on the Baldwin? Beautiful!

[@AtlanticMusicCtr]

"Some Other Time" :)

[@MDZac2024]

That Baldwin sound wow!

[@AtlanticMusicCtr]

yes it does!

[@Jack-hy1zq]

What was the name of the first Schubert piece, please?

[@susank4878]

Lovely Baldwin. I own a 1934 Baldwin F, ready for new hammers. The parts are beautifully built, the tone and the deep even bass are the same. There's a design failing in both the Baldwin and the Mason & Hamlin -- that large solid plain music desk. It traps too much of the sound on the other side, so the player can't judge the volume correctly, compared to the audience. It would be a good idea to remove and set aside the plain panel and manufacture another with the artistically conceived jigsaw work so there is some air between the front and the back of the music desk.

[@AtlanticMusicCtr]

Ah, very nice! This Baldwin F is a 1935 with new Renner hammers. Yes, the music desk problem is unfortunate. Much better to have an open design such as on this Steinway www.amcpiano.com/inv-Steinway-ModelM-499229

[@susank4878]

@@AtlanticMusicCtr Yes, that new Steinway music desk definitely fixes this. On the other hand, that much space makes it harder to write on music, though it would be easy to put a thick piece of cardboard behind the music, leaving the openings elsewhere. I notice that in Europe the music desks have openings. Also, many concert pianists now lay an iPad on the plate struts, eliminating the music desk altogether, and enabling them to turn pages with a left foot.

[@longhaulblue]

That was a gorgeous Some Other Time.

[@AtlanticMusicCtr]

Thank you!

[@BH-2]

It's quite interesting the N Y Steinway just don't have the 'roundedness' in Hamburg Steinways. The more I have experienced New York and Hamburg Steinways, the more I think they are two totally different companies. Out of these three pianos, my personal favourite has to be the Baldwin, it has so much soul

[@AtlanticMusicCtr]

Great pick on the Baldwin. Baldwin's are a store favorite around here. Our owner Brian was a Baldwin concert artist and our Lead Tech was the head of quality control at Baldwin's Arkansas factory back in the day.

[@Nunofurdambiznez]

Good Gracious - Mason and Hamlin all the way!! Steinway 2nd, Baldwin 3rd.

[@AtlanticMusicCtr]

Good picks!

[@michaelcoolen8716]

That was not a piece by Bernstein. It was "Piece Peace" by Bill Evans. "Some Other TIme" has different chords.

[@mrw301]

That mason hamlin is so decadent!

[@AtlanticMusicCtr]

It's a great piano!

[@MarcusVinicius116]

Baldwin and M&H équivalent and slightly superior than the Steinway I find.

[@AtlanticMusicCtr]

Baldwin and Mason & Hamlin have great tones for sure. We love the old American Baldwin's here at Atlantic Music Center and are known especially for our Baldwin rebuilds. A great American made SF10 is a hard piano to beat.

[@davedave5787]

love my restored sd6 baldwin amazing wish i had one of each....🤓 I don't even know how to play.....

[@AtlanticMusicCtr]

The SD6 is a great piano! Have you considered putting a player system in the piano?

[@davedave5787]

Yes I have be neat!

[@michaelw6554]

A golden age mason & Hamlin would have been a fairer comparison with the other two. Still my favorite, however.

[@TeaTimewithDave]

A wonderful video and probably the nicest version of Bernstein’s Some Other Time - even better than Bill Evans’. All three of these brands (if you get the right year) are gorgeous heirloom pianos. We have a 1926 Steinway but I’d be happy with a Baldwin or M&H from a similar time period.

[@AtlanticMusicCtr]

They are all magnificent - comes down to personal preference what piano one chooses!

[@gregs3580]

Given the pieces played on the various pianos, the orchestral and transparent nature of the instrument both in the simple and "orchestrally" complicated scoring, I feel the Steinway does the best job. Mason and Hamlin also has a very nice balance and openness.

[@AtlanticMusicCtr]

Thanks for offering your opinion! Steinway certainly didn't gain their reputation for nothing.

[@donprior9144]

all sound great but it sounds as thought they have been recorded with some effects to enhance their sound. Better demo would be to use straight recording with no enhancements.

[@AtlanticMusicCtr]

We used the Earthworks PM40 piano micing system. Very little post work, but understand there are limitations with microphone recording - they are never going to pick up exactly what your ears hear in the room, plus all mics "color" the piano in some way, and their positioning in this case (close micing) is also going to affect the sound (you don't hear the room). We added a slight EQ boost on the highs to breath a little more life into the mic recording and also a subtle amount of reverb - but the treatment is the same on all pianos so as not to affect the comparison.

[@pianostudy4403]

Nice! Well done! (I have a Baldwin R myself.)

[@AtlanticMusicCtr]

The Baldwin R is a great piano! We have a rebuilt R from 1974 on inventory right now

[@carryfreak5059]

I bought a Baldwin R (2002) and love the crystal clear treble.

[@carryfreak5059]

Sorry, I bought a Baldwin R1 (2002) absolutely love the crystal clear treble

[@andrewanderson6121]

It is more than unfortunate that Steinway has driven all the others out. Fazioli seems to be (deservedly!)putting up some needed competition. I've enjoyed playing Pleyels, Bechsteins, Bosendorfers, Knabes (which was at one time the official piano of the Metropolitan Opera, if I'm not mistaken), Faziolis, and historic Erards. The variety of sound and touch is a joy for a discerning musician.

[@AtlanticMusicCtr]

All great pianos! Bosendorfer is holding their own, and of course there are other boutique german makers like Steingraeber and Sauter which have (thankfully) found a way to survive. Tough market these days for everyone though.

[@hastensavoir7782]

How do you find Faziolis?

[@EliasCohen881]

The great Earl Wild also favored Baldwins. I have several recordings by Santiago Rodriguez of Brahms and Rachmaninoff on an SD-10. Tremendous bass it has, and a wonderful, shimmering upper register.

[@AtlanticMusicCtr]

We love rebuilding Baldwins here! The SD10 and SF10 in particular are incredible pianos.

[@komoru]

Would be a better comparison to play the same piece on all 3 pianos as well as move the pianos to the same position in the room because in any scientific experiment, the variables have to be controlled to be valid. Otherwise it becomes very subjective. I also find that the sound and playability of rebuilt vintage pianos lies mostly in how they were rebuilt and whether or not the soundboards are new or shimmed or even what wood was used on a "rebuilt" soundboard.

[@AtlanticMusicCtr]

The soundboards are original :)

[@DavenH]

The amcpiano link lead me to a 404 page.

[@AtlanticMusicCtr]

Thanks for the FYI! We had a website update recently.

[@debbiemcnamara7059]

I had a Kimball. I could not take it to California. I have a digital. They are day and night.

[@AtlanticMusicCtr]

Nothing quite like the real thing!

[@simonbailey8814]

Ivory keys! Poor elephants.