Plato's Gorgias, What Does Gorgias Teach?

[@xNitrosisx]

Currently doing a book report on Gorgias for an introduction to rhetorical theory class and this video broke down Gorgias in so much more detail and capable understanding than anything in academia ever has for me. Top notch.

[@GreatBooksProf]

Good luck on your report!

[@thattimestampguy]

expanding a deeper meaning from the text. I like the connection, and it relates to my life.

[@GreatBooksProf]

Glad to hear you found it interesting!

[@Spyder.55]

Great at unpacking in brief

[@midwestdepressed]

Intriguing for sure! Can't wait to read my copy. It reminds me of the work of Paulo Friere.

[@norierebosa7209]

Thank you for this piece sir. Do you perhaps make a video on the connection of Gorgias to the death penalty law? If ever you find relevance to delve in this topic. 😊

[@liketheduck]

High quality, thoughtful, content. 😊

[@GreatBooksProf]

Thanks, D G. I appreciate that!

[@g.b.2095]

You hit the nail on the head, but who determines what is good and true and just?

[@scoobertdoobert6543]

Thank you for this, it helped me a lot!

[@GreatBooksProf]

You’re welcome. Excellent username!

[@mo-215]

Fantastic! very helpful.

[@GreatBooksProf]

Glad it was helpful!

[@AGMundy]

Interesting. May I suggest those who are interested to listen to a recent BBC programme called "In Our Time: Plato's Gorgias" which is an informative discussion of this Socratic dialogue.

[@GreatBooksProf]

Thank you for the recommendation!

[@hannalin6856]

thought provoking analysis!

[@GreatBooksProf]

Thanks a lot, Hanna. I appreciate that.

[@Khanvict97]

Thank you so much Sir.

[@GreatBooksProf]

You're very welcome!

[@michelleliz38]

Real teacher.

[@GreatBooksProf]

Thanks, ML!

[@DrDanLawrence]

I like to teach this dialogue in a sequence and context with Gorgias's own "Encomium of Helen", Plato's Gorgias, then Plato's Phaedrus. It helps to add a nice layer of complexity to the discussion--that perhaps Gorgias wasn't just this empty Sophist. Gorgias seems quite aware of the dangers and powers of persuasion in the "Encomium of Helen." This adds some nice complexity to the Phaedrus as well. Many students over the years have brought up critiques of Plato's Phaedrus that I never came to myself--that we generally agree with the conclusion that speech should be as true as possible (look what happens if it isn't, we have horrible examples like Hitler's Germany), but Plato's reasoning and his arrival at this conclusion seems flawed - more like a technique to promote his own theories or particular brand of truth. Williams even calls Plato more a rhetorician than a philosopher, which I find still interesting.

[@andycastro1014]

Some have accused Socrates' own rhetoric as failing with Callicles but after I read it for myself I see Callicles being rather difficult himself at the outset of his part of the dialogue. He doesn't seem to welcome his assumptions to be poked at.

[@GreatBooksProf]

You're exactly right, Andy. Callicles does not respond well to criticisms and he ultimately seems unwilling to see reason But, this also raises questions about Socrates. Are there limits to his philosophical "powers"? Are there some students or some people who are "unreachable," or who can't be reasoned with? Callicles seems to be such a person. So what are we supposed to do with people like that? This is sort of a deep political problem with which Plato's dialogue is concerned. There are people like this, and we live with them. And sometimes they are difficult to live with, and more problematically we can be tempted to deal with them by "making" them "see reason" or obey the law, but in such cases, are we just employing the same kinds of tyrannical strategies that a person like Callicles would recommend?

[@bizon1271]

Do you talk about Gorgias' "nothing exists" concept?

[@lalannej]

As you say, the moral content of the discussion is far more important than the other details. So you should focus on Socrates questions, "Is it better to correct someone or to be corrected by someone?", and further, "Is it better to cause injustice to someone else, or to be a victim of injustice yourself?" These are the important questions of this dialogue, and really, of all living.

[@carlosmcastaneda3828]

Is there an opinion about Gorgias that is not prejudiced by Plato?

[@user-cz8gi2om3n]

Liberal education, as we understand it, was more influenced by Cicero, who's conception of philosophy is closer to Gorgias, than by Plato.

[@johncarpenter4083]

@5:58 or so. why is there no definition of the word 'critical'? Here is a non-critical analysis of the word... critical (adj.) 1580s, "censorious, inclined to find fault," from critic + -al (1). Sense of "important or essential for determining" is from c. 1600, originally in medicine. Meaning "of the nature of a crisis, in a condition of extreme doubt or danger" is from 1660s; that of "involving judgment as to the truth or merit of something" is from 1640s; that of "having the knowledge, ability, or discernment to pass judgment" is from 1640s. Meaning "pertaining to criticism" is from 1741. critic (n.) formerly critick, 1580s, "one who passes judgment, person skilled in judging merit in some particular class of things," from French critique (14c.), from Latin criticus "a judge, a censor, an estimator," also "grammarian who detects spurious passages in literary work," from Greek kritikos "able to make judgments," from krinein "to separate, decide" (from PIE root *krei- "to sieve," thus "discriminate, distinguish"). The meaning "one who judges merits of books, plays, etc." is from c. 1600. The English word always has had overtones of "censurer, faultfinder, one who judges severely."

[@stevenfroehlich1490]

Gorgias claims to teach justice, but everyone knows that he is just saying this to save face. Socrates has pointed out that to teach someone how to speak persuasively (without knowing what you're talking about) can be extremely dangerous, especially in a democracy. Gorgias is aware of this, and, somewhat to his credit, is embarrassed by this. Socrates, on the other hand, never claims to know justice. Indeed, he claims not to know anything of genuine importance. The Republic is about Socrates' best attempt to give an answer to the question, "What is justice?", and it is unclear whether he comes to an acceptable approximation of an answer to this question. Rhetoric is the "art" of persuasive speaking; the liberal arts attempts to teach students to think for themselves, clearly and intelligently, allowing them to pursue the truth. It seems to me that there is a big difference between the two. If a teacher tries to teach their students what is good, they better have superior knowledge to what Socrates had, and that seems unlikely. Indeed, one interpretation of the Allegory of the Cave from the Republic is that everyone has to "see" the Good for themself. No one can teach it to someone else. The liberal arts should be the "art" of liberating students from the darkness of the Cave, and allowing them to pursue the Truth for themselves.

[@RoaringRon]

Socrates was having an intelligent and interesting conversation with Gorgias until Polus tried to butt in all of a sudden. Stupid Polus. His name sounds like Phallus. Socrates tried to shrug him off to resume the conversation with Gorgias but he didn't seem to know how to to take a hint. "Colt by name and colt by nature. Our young friend is apt to run away." (A word play by Socrates since "Polus" means "colt"). From "Gorgias", it seems that to have a meaningful conversation both sides must operate in good faith. I hate Polus.