Greek pots have 'B-sides', and The Ajax and Achilles 'B-side' is a banger |

Over the years many questions have been asked of the Ajax and Achilles playing dice amphora. Questions such as: 'What's on the back?' (@R. knudson, KZbin Comment, 2019) and 'COME ON, you ave to show us the back of the vase, too! (@Keyboard runner, KZbin comment, 2019).
In this video, curator Victoria Donnellan is going to answer those questions, and literally 0 others. Enjoy.
Also here is the front of the pot: • Killing time during th...
#CuratorsCorner #GreekPotBSides #ShowUsTheBack

[@britishmuseum]

As promised here's the other side of the Ajax and Achilles amphora, affectionately referred to as a 'B-side' by our curator Victoria Donnellan (it isn't entirely clear to us whether this is an official academic term used by scholars of Greek pottery, but if it isn't it definitely should be!). In case you missed Vicky's earlier video, here it is: kzbin.info/www/bejne/mIWtoHeahqx8bNU

[@jakubs.5966]

There is something I must know. As I watched few of your videos, browsed here and there..I must say I miss Dr Finkel on charts. Will he be coming back? :x

[@sarptopcu]

pleaseee make a video about "the tomb of the bulls" i wish the drawing was on a case which british museum stole from somewhere".

[@restlesssheep7156]

Give a praise to whoever wrote the title

[@albertzuger3178]

Oh man! I thought we were going to get to see some of the “naughty” b-sides that are regularly featured on attic ware vases. It takes a bit of craning your neck around, but many a vase in a museum display has the more exciting and titallating scene facing the wall. Shout out to Dr. Mary Edwards of Columbia and Pratt Institute art history, for showing us both sides of some very particular vases and waking up many a groggy first year in a morning 101 class!

[@moozie2z]

Came here to say the same. I've heard this from teachers but never read about it anywhere. Seems to be a sort of unspoken reality.

[@pipe2devnull]

Ancient Pottery Disc Jockey: ".. and that was Ajax and Achilles. Next by popular request let's spin over to the B side .. Heracles Ascends to Olympus ..."

[@51WCDodge]

Yeah but the B side is ofetn the more intresting.

[@josephkarl2061]

You're listening to 103.8 POMP-FM Pompeii, where the music just explodes!!

[@runninginsept]

@@josephkarl2061 And the beats will bury ya 😋

[@kateh2007]

Thankyou Ms Donnellan, I'm absolutely intrigued by these beautiful relics of the past. I appreciate the time and effort which you and your fellow curators take in presenting them to us. Your collective love and enthusiasm for your particular specialist subjects and periods in time shines through and adds so much to these precious artifacts as well as increasing our knowledge of history in general.

[@mutualbeard]

Curator's Corner is always a revelation. As a potter I have always wondered about "B" sides. Many potters will ignore it and do nothing. I have mostly endeavoured to make vase forms that are all "A" side but not always successfully. I am so glad to hear that the much lauded classical Greek pot painters faced the same challenges.

[@TheSuzberry]

Love the concept of a “b” side to ancient puts.

[@reneeugrin7037]

Maybe Ajax and Achilles are just waiting their turn to join the Olympians. Athena is there, celebrations to be had, Herekles had seniority, Mercury sending a message regarding the new arrivals? So many stories could be woven here! Delightful. Thank you.

[@pansepot1490]

Much better interpretation than the dismissive one offered by the curator. 👍

[@Molscheira]

Absolutely love the title and the description! Marvelous job, British Museum. Oh and of course thank you to Victoria Donnellan! I studied Greek and Roman Archeology and Ancient Greek - so all around loving this kind of videos :)

[@StephenGillie]

It's like having Sonic and Knuckles on one side of a lunchbox, and Tails on the back.

[@wellesradio]

Stephen Gillie Heracles ain’t no Tails!

[@nicholsjoshua15]

I like have Big Boss and Solid Snake on the front of my lunchbox and Raiden on the back of my lunchbox.

[@johnjones2nd667]

I enjoy these little treats immensly. Thank you.

[@notablegoat]

"Ajax and Achilles Pot Review" "Ajax and Achilles Pit: Before you Buy"

[@goodboybuddy1]

You can’t imagine how much I enjoy your little videos. So much wit and intelligence packed into such a small space. Love it.

[@Dwightstjohn-fo8ki]

I'm glad we have these lovely Ph,D's to 'splain this to moi, because the horses ass was the first thing I noticed on the "reverse" side. Got an Award like that once, just that back half of the horse.

[@michaelthompson342]

Love the outtake at the beginning!

[@Wavemaninawe]

Icarus didnt fly too close to the sun. He was merely binge listening to too many mix tapes.

[@seanyourhero1765]

Lmao is a "banger" whoever titled this video is a god among men

[@bombfog1]

Excellent! I loved both of your videos on this beautiful work of art. I hope to see more of you.

[@kevfquinn]

Not overly enamoured of dying young being a characteristic of perfect manhood :-D

[@Whocares.........]

Thank you again! Well done Vicky!

[@michaelwatson113]

Fascinating. Thank you for an enlightening glimpse into the past.

[@juliancoulden1753]

Fascinating! Thank you!

[@rosetownstumpcity]

Just discovered this amazing series... Merry Christmas to me!!

[@RasheedKhan-he6xx]

I think the back is beautiful. So intricate and surely took a lot more time and effort. I wonder actually which is the back?

[@TheGLpanda]

Keep the great content coming!

[@mojosbigsticks]

Thank you, I was wondering.

[@hamm6035]

I just seen your channel and I really like the presentation. Victoria, you were wonderfully pleasent and have a great voice for for videos. I do have a request. You mentioned that females were accented with white and that because of the black makes separating the figures difficult. Is it acceptable to have a colorized image showing how the scenes would have probably looked when it was new? I very much enjoy seeing the beautiful art work from all ages but the Greek and Minoan are so interesting, a very different style than modern art and they seem to always be conveying a story. I look forward to seeing more.

[@edcrichton9457]

A fine question. Perhaps the curators are aware of any studies that might suggest the original coloration of the glazes.

[@michaelexman5474]

i can not imagine the effort that was put into those ceramics....

[@agerven]

Thank you!

[@theallseeingmaster]

I never suspected that there would be a 'B' side to a vase.

[@youtubeuseral]

I would think that its obvious, how the two sides are related 'Achilles & Ajax are going to be riding that chariot to joint the God's of Olympus as is Hercules is doing! Its showing a story of transition!

[@censusgary]

Yay! We finally get to see the other sides of that jar!

[@joedavis4150]

Yes!! We bunnies are happy now and can hop away fulfilled!

[@landzender]

Not all of us. I'm now curious as to what's on the bottom.

[@joedavis4150]

@@landzender absolutely!

[@aegresen]

Aww, this was way too short :(

[@lordshittington135]

Fire whoever was responsible for lighting.

[@johnnzboy]

Very interesting. I wonder if perhaps the master painter would produce the A side while a journeyman would take care of the B side, leaving the master free to work on the next pot. Is it known if the main scenes on sides A and B of such pots were created by one artisan, or could these sides be the product of numerous hands? I'm assuming that minor decorative features were the responsibility of apprentices. Or maybe such pots generally had one "plain" but compositionally striking side, which appealed more to connoisseurs/cultured customers, and one "busy" side, which appealed to the "nouveau riche" who preferred "busier" scenes because this ostensibly shows that more time and effort had gone into this side and "By Zeus, if I'm going to shell out for a pot from this overpriced artisan I want to see the whole Olympic pantheon and horses and chariots, not just a mingy hero or two playing boardgames"? Did such a class distinction/snobbery exist in Ancient Greece?

[@sidilicious11]

I love the “B” side of this pot.

[@charlesericmartin9939]

Dang!!! She's cute!!! Hello From Charles-Eric, North East Tennessee USA!!!

[@MartinAhlman]

Sometimes the b-side is better, but that mostly happens in the recording industry. In this case the a-side won. Thank you again.

[@monkeydust100]

Oh yeah that's a banger right there

[@sinbaon2154]

Never expected to be both attracted and informed in less then 3 minutes.

[@kenc2257]

This video should have been longer! Curator, may we have more pot, please?

[@visi7754]

Thanks! Actually Facinating/Interesting Plus Intriguing and Not Normally my Cup of Tea¥ Cheers

[@larazhaloba2460]

Thanks

[@bothewolf3466]

One downvote? Someone who wore out the A-side of their cassette and never liked the B-side I guess. XD

[@DSQueenie]

The captions on this are hilarious

[@chevychase3103]

That would be a magnificent pot vessel if it were made today!

[@chadfalardeau9162]

I've always wondered about this subject but never knew if anyone actually addressed it.

[@luizsa8300]

Seeing as the B-side was put together haphazardly, would it be correct to assume that it was painted by an apprentice, rather than by the artist who signed the main side?

[@the10thman87]

Looks multi-purpose. One side for this date, and the other side for that date.

[@orderofazarath7609]

maybe together with a lot of other pots to show whole different stories just by turning all of them around

[@DonMeaker]

When the in-laws came to visit, you would have to turn the displayed side of the pots to avoid fights.

[@robertcochran7103]

I've watched both of the amphora videos. I wonder who that amphora was originally intended for -- after the artist created it? After seeing the first video, I spent the rest of my evening learning about Achilles and Ajax. I have no knowledge of Greek mythology so Victoria's discussions of what the amphora's drawing signify have whetted my interest in that area.

[@radish6691]

Did the same artist always paint both the A and B sides? For example, did the master artist paint the A side and then give the pot to a student to finish the B side? What made me wonder was the statement that B sides were often mass produced.

[@inessamaria2428]

I love this content. #ancientworld #Troy

[@lakrids-pibe]

Oh wow I didn't notice Athena there at all! Yes that side is a bit overcrowded.

[@PairOfCatEyes]

Neat

[@j.m.waterfordasxiphanex3738]

Lest we forget :D

[@Menstral]

Expertise increases anybody's hotness.

[@51WCDodge]

What about the horses? Xanthos and Balius? They were immortal, and Xanthos predicted Achillies death. By the by the tack on the Assyrian Frizes, it's easy to identiyfie the modern counterparts. Have you an Equine Curator?

[@gordonmarshall7743]

Since there is a "B" side, does this mean that these amphora were purely decorative? Was there any indication of it ever containing anything like olive oil?

[@Dwightstjohn-fo8ki]

The Los Angeles Museum has loads and loads of perfect examples of these Greek "pots" or ?? Make sure to see them if you're ever in LA.

[@AAmoroso]

cool :)

[@thisnicklldo]

I'm surprised at the reluctance of the curator to recognise any common theme on the two sides. This is a funerary urn - whoever it was bought for, we should reasonably assume that the surviving relatives who bought the pot were distraught and chose with care. All people hope for, wish for, some kind of immortality, especially for loved ones recently passed - either through a life in heaven, or some form of resurrection, or more prosaically through the memory of the living. Both Achilles and Herakles achieved immortality - of exactly what kind would depend on the faith of the believer. But it was surely an instantly recognisable theme to all those who understood even the tiniest bit of Greek culture. Surely the pot is saying that the dead relative has joined the Gods, and will also live forever? These are his companions in his afterlife - whether metaphorically or in some 'real' way.

[@trax-3987]

Except the Greeks did not believe in "joining with Gods" their view of the afterlife was rather dim.

[@thisnicklldo]

Well, they certainly didn't have a dim view of glory, nor the immortality that glory bestows, which personally I think is the main thing here. But even in a more 'religious' sense, Elysium is not dim. Yes, Homeric Hades is dim, though the dead would mix with Achilles and Herakles there. They certainly did believe in an afterlife even if it isn't a Christian or Norse afterlife. Anyway, a funerary urn seems to me a statement about what the bereaved think of the deceased, more than being about what they think of the teachings of their priests.

[@jebstuart4004]

🤣🤣🤣 heaven, resurrection, etc are Christian words.... Never the case for greeks, except for mythologic heroes who can join the Elysean field which is not Heaven too....sorry mate but you totally wrong here. The priests too 🤣🤣....and again 🤣🤣🤣. Well, you shouldn t use those words.

[@thisnicklldo]

Are you seriously telling me that the Greeks had no priests? I'm a bit wary of someone who uses emoticons as arguments, but who should be laughing at that idea? Whether Elysium is heaven depends on how narrowly you want to define these things - it is a place of afterlife for a select few, so it's some sort of 'heaven'. But here's my question to you - do you think that the family of the deceased might just as readily have bought a pot with any pretty pattern on it, that the design was independent of the use, that no thought was applied? A Simpsons mug would do?

[@CamMci]

thisnicklldo if it’s any consolation nick I agree with what you’re saying

[@pansepot1490]

How do you know which one is the B side? What if this is the A side?

[@chrisbovington9607]

What? That's the whole video? I thought that was the intro.

[@kidmohair8151]

0:25 "some of the gods are the same"...but the names have been changed to protect the innocent

[@zaugitude]

So, what was it that was making her laugh? I was expecting the B side to portray something “naughty” after that and the title 😜

[@user-sw5bq3ek8q]

1) I thing the scene of Heracles is actually the A scene, and the scene of Ajax is the b scene. 2) The common thing of Heracles with Apollo, Hermes and Dionysus is that they are all sons of Zeus.

[@Erkynar]

This is all going to pots.

[@mholm1818]

How about Ajax and Achilles as representative of living the life you can before it's gone (heroically) and Herakles as the representation of a similar apotheosis. Not in an absolute literal sense but not in a greeting card sense, either. Somewhere in between as a sentiment for the deceased?

[@timmorris8932]

Made me snort my coffee.

[@MMaRsu]

Damn where can I get a pot like that?

[@brachiator1]

Just coming across these very interesting videos. Interesting contrast. Heracles becomes a god. Ajax and Achilles are mortals who go down into Hades. Do we know what the jar once contained? Anyway, thank you so much for these videos.

[@chrisgurney2467]

It's like watching telly innit? somedays you want to watch one channel somedays the other XD

[@jonnavdpas]

Why is the video so dark?

[@h3egypt]

the dark side of vase

[@jamesianv]

Looks like Achilles when he stopped dragging Hector's body around Troy..So a loose link to what is proper and not.

[@uLise4Life]

So when you will have a giveaway for our friends in Athens?

[@tykehotep2865]

Who made you say it's a banger ? Hahahahaha Banger like a feet on the dance floor classiic party Banger

[@Catubrannos]

it's British slang like saying cracker, which has nothing to do with the word cracker in American slang. Don't know if it's used much these days - "He did a bang up job" meaning really good.

[@tykehotep2865]

@@Catubrannos hehehehehe I know I'm from Yorkshire I was just joking that's why I said "like a classic party dancefloor banger" :) . Just seems a odd choice of words. But it does say the b side of the jug so I suppose it does kind of fit. But thanks for the reply. I actually think they're using it in the that tune is a banger trying to sound a bit cool mate and not so much as you suggest a bang up job

[@guyjohnson3775]

❤️🌹

[@Desi-qw9fc]

Why is this video so grey? Is it my computer?

[@men_del12]

Hmm... interesting. What about the feet? Does it have mark & a stample like chinese pottery?

[@adamroodog1718]

My 2c. Could they not be double sided for different occasions. You could have Ajax and Achilles for less formal more social things and have Hercules for more formal or business meeting.

[@1337fraggzb00N]

I also own a certain amount of pot.

[@sictransitgloriamundi7590]

😁😁😁

[@osenseijedi]

I am just a layman, so forgive my ignorance, but how do you know this is Hercules ? What distinguishes him from other characters for instance ?

[@averyoldaccount]

herakles is recognizable through his accessories, as are most Ancient Greek characters depicted on pots like these! He has his bat and you can see part of his lion-skin cloak.

[@osenseijedi]

@@averyoldaccount Thanks

[@robertyboberty7495]

Did they figure out that the B side is usually facing a wall . Nice jugs.

[@onemercilessming1342]

So, Greek pottery is the ancient equivalent of 45 rpm records of the 1950s. Sometimes, the "B" side of those was "better"/more interesting/ than the "A" side as well.

[@raimohoft1236]

Is there a hidden track on the B-Side? 😁

[@larson0014]

I would think that since this was a funeral case, that the b side would signal passing to the afterlife perhaps for the deceased?

[@Eowyn3Pride]

Why are there Celtic spirals on the "B" side?

[@mikemiller1646]

How do we know which is the "A" side and which is the "B"? Since it a funereal offering wouldn't the side with the elevation of Heracles after death seem like the "A" side?

[@pansepot1490]

Just asked the same question and scrolling the comments I can see that others have too.

[@ptonpc]

She said, the B sides tend to be less well painted. The compositions are more crowded and they could look mass produced. So she's basing this on the quality of work and design put into each side.

[@hamm6035]

A very good question. Any time you can spark curiosity with a question is wonderful.

[@edcrichton9457]

I agree. Too many art historians are judging compositions according to contemporary critique. The "busy" side, to use a design term, is an event. Hercules is arguably the more important demi-god compared to Achilles. Being the son of Zeus, Herakles has more standing. Zeus was worshipped everywhere in Ancient Greece. It is possible the Ancient Greeks considered the apotheosis of Hercules to be more important. The complaint that it is a more rigid, mass-produced, appearance might have been the point.

[@DonnaBarrHerself]

Throw the dice all you like, your enemy still goes to heaven?

[@mlouwagie]

you turned the pots for different holidays

[@RaduB.]

Yay! Anyway...

[@davidherbst]

What if, to the maker, the Ajax and Achilles side was the B side? That sound you hear is everything we thought we knew about the Ancient Greeks turning upside down.

[@theemissary1313]

Is it me, or does Dionysus have a Pythagoras cup?

[@525Lines]

I wonder when I see these repaired ceramics if the big problem isn't now 150 years later, the repairs.

[@edgeeffect]

I've always wondered why if you pronounce it correctly it's "hair-ah-cleese" but in common usage it's "Hurk-you-lees"?

[@johnalexander2349]

I'm no photographer, but to my eye, the colour is flat. Joey said something about that here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/q4qkeHecjbWFsLc . If I'm wrong, just ignore this comment. I do love the content.

[@Awalys]

why is this video so goddamn dark

[@CanalTremocos]

It's the fog of history.

[@glipk]

Weed