Greek Pronunciation: ει (epsilon iota), the full history | Ancient Greek, Classical Greek thru Koine

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

The pronunciation of Ancient Greek is a fascinating story that stretches from the epic Homeric legends through Classical Greece and Rome to the modern era. How did the sound of Greek change from early to late antiquity to the Mediaeval period to the present? In this series of videos, I will answer those questions, and many more! 🇬🇷 🏺 Lucian Pronunciation of Ancient Greek: kzbin.info/www/bejne/eqWcq2h9q9Vmg68 📄 Ancient Greek Pronunciation Guide: bit.ly/ranierigreekpronunciationguide 🗞 My newsletter/blog discussing the importance of pronunciation in working with ancient languages like Ancient Greek: lukeranieri.com/newsletter_2021-02-11/ 🐢 Learn Ancient Greek with my Comprehensible Input video series Ancient Greek in Action! kzbin.info/aero/PLU1WuLg45SixsonRdfNNv-CPNq8xUwgam 👨‍🏫 Luke Ranieri presents (in Latin! subtitles in English) his research on Latin & Greek Pronunciation Evolution 500 BC to 500 AD "Vōcēs quae per saecula inmūtantur" (Living Latin & Ancient Greek in New York City 2020): kzbin.info/www/bejne/mZCqmqyVga10orc​ 🕰 Ranieri's Greek Pronunciation Chronology Spreadsheet: bit.ly/ranierigreekpronunciation​ 📺 Dialect VS Language (polýMATHY video): kzbin.info/www/bejne/sIbPf5upbdd9lck • Free Ancient Greek audio in Lucian Pronunciation • 👨‍🌾 Athenaze www.patreon.com/posts/36186862 🏺 Polis www.patreon.com/posts/45481663 🕵️‍♂️ Kataskopos www.patreon.com/posts/42738514 References used in this video: Vox Graeca by W. Sydney Allen: amzn.to/3qFL0IK Greek: A History of the Language and its Speakers by Horrocks: amzn.to/3qNzAmj Social Variation and the Latin Language by J.N. Adams: amzn.to/2ZC4an4 Spell It Out, history of English orthography by David Crystal: amzn.to/3pJpHVl @Paleogloss Raphael Turrigiano's channel: kzbin.info/door/_rRxsAwe9nNvI-bHcXraQw Join this channel to get access to perks: kzbin.info/door/Lbiwlm3poGNh5XSVlXBkGAjoin 🦂 Support my work on Patreon: www.patreon.com/LukeRanieri ☕️ Support my work with PayPal: paypal.me/lukeranieri 📚 Luke Ranieri Audiobooks: luke-ranieri.myshopify.com 🏛 Ancient Greek in Action · Free Greek Lessons: kzbin.info/aero/PLU1WuLg45SixsonRdfNNv-CPNq8xUwgam 👨‍🏫 My Lingua Latina Per Se Illustrata playlist · Free Latin Lessons: kzbin.info/www/bejne/oGjLlWpvbq6tpLc 🦂 ScorpioMartianus (my channel *entirely* in Latin & Ancient Greek) kzbin.info 🎙 Luke Ranieri ASMR in Latin: kzbin.info 🌍 polýMATHY website: lukeranieri.com/polymathy/ 😊 polýMATHY on Facebook: facebook.com/lukepolymath 🐦 polýMATHY on Twitter: twitter.com/LukePolymath/ 🎮 Join the Discord community: discord.gg/u4PN2u2 🌅 polýMATHY on Instagram: instagram.com/lukeranieri/ 🦁 Legio XIII Latin Language Podcast: kzbin.info 🎙 Hundreds of hours of Latin & Greek audio: lukeranieri.com/audio 👕 Merch: teespring.com/stores/scorpiomartianus 🦂 www.ScorpioMartianus.com 🦅 www.LukeRanieri.com ☕️ Supported in part by LanguageMugs.com : languagemugs.com/shop/?wpam_id=11 📖 My book Ranieri Reverse Recall on Amazon: amzn.to/2nVUfqd 00:00 Intro 00:18 How ει is pronounced in Modern Greek 01:02 Diphthong vs digraph 02:02 Erasmus: what he got right, and what he got wrong 05:15 Latin transcriptions - Ἀλεξάνδρεια: Alexandrēa vs Alexandrīa, the statistics 08:41 Lucian Pronunciation of Ancient Greek 10:15 ει confused with ῑ and η in early to mid Koine period (late 4cBC to 1cAD) 10:39 5cBC Classical Attic 12:15 The sound of ει in 5cBC Classical Attic: how we know it's *not* the diphthong /ei̯/ 13:04 Athens adopts the Ionian alphabet in 403 BC under Euclid 14:54 Did archaic Greek have the diphthong /ei̯/ for ει? 17:58 Did Homeric Greek have the diphthong /ei̯/ for ει? 20:34 Working for the Word & Aleph with Beth 20:58 The impracticability of restoring either "Homeric" pronunciation or the diphthong /ei̯/ for ει in general 23:10 Koine Greek definition 23:28 Boeotian dialect 25:43 There you go again! 28:49 Pronunciation Wars 31:58 The Great Schism ✝️ ⚡️ ☦️ 33:30 The intent of Erasmus 35:18 My problem 36:47 Use this one trick to make your Erasmian Pronunciation more historical! 38:14 I accept whatever pronunciation you wish to use! 38:44 πρὸς τοῦς τῆς Ἐλλάδος φίλους 39:50 I make fun of how I used to feel about this 40:18 This is what I'm critical of! A real howler 🐶 41:07 Ποσειδῶν ➡️ Posīdōn ➡️ Poseidon?! 41:53 Conclusion

[@MrGreenBin1]

4:20 - Serbian language is written exactly how is pronunciated. Thank you for doing this, it means a lot to me!

[@eneazano110]

Albanian language does it

[@anastasiossioulas83]

My pleasure! I am a language enthusiast and and classics lover. I was thinking many times parts of pronunciation that you remarked. I admire your passion to learn greatly and spread with ardor what you learned greatly. I even restarted my latin and I see much correlations in within Greek as well. I also talk two modern dialects. We may talk in the future, and even better in ancient Greek and Latin 😁

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Ἡσθήσομαι σφόδρα μετὰ σοῦ διαλέγεσθαι ἑλληνιστί τε καὶ ῥωμαϊστί!

[@konstantinospapadopoulos7735]

I think you missed that in early Attic, at least some EI were written as H; eg ΙΠΠΗΣ instead of ΙΠΠΕΙΣ, etc. About Poseidon, which is relevant to the history of the diphthong EI, there are earlier Greek inscriptions that read ΠΟΤΕΔΑΝ, which shows that EI was a later development from a single sound (perhaps E could represent longer or shorter (etc) forms of a sound, but it was rather a single sound; ie not E + I), where the diphthong was introduced to indicate a single phthong with nuanced differences (which also corresponds to the common understanding of Linear B); ie in a later time where "vowelization" was being advanced in warm and "chatty" places like Athens. Similarly about the AI diphthong, as in ΚΑΙΩ (etc) that was ΚΑΩ in early Attic... Also I find that you assume that what the Latins were transcribing was always based purely on phonetics and not spelling conventions of the Greeks, while the latter interplayed also with spelling conventions of the Latins themselves. In other words, you assume a "steady" ancient system to judge Greek on, while Latin was apparently not that "steady" to use it as an anchor to judge Greek pronunciation shifts, as Latin pronunciation itself should be, perhaps more so, put in test/question. Furthermore, similar to the argument about ΠΟΤΕΔΑΝ and that, in extent, Greek letters may have covered more than one [nuanced] sound each, Latins may have had a similar "nuanced multi-usage" of [some of] their letters (eg LATIN U/V was sometimes written as I; eg LACRIMA, SATIRA, etc). Similarly, the early Greek [h]eta was most likely a consonant which then was merged with the E that often followed it, resulting to H becoming an E-like sounding vowel. Nevertheless, H as a vowel was also generally represented by A in some Greek dialects, which indicated various nuanced sounds covered by Greek A. Similar merging of letters (consonants this time) may have happened with Latin FH (as in the proto-Latin[ofaliscan] Praeneste fibula) where F (digamma) was merged with H so that F eventually assumed the FH-sound (while plain F was generally vowelized to U/V at the same time, and while F was replaced by various other letters (consonants of vowels) in Greek dialects (Φ / Β / Θ /Y / Ietc). Similarly, about the early Attic ΧΣ that in some dialects (like also in Latin) that did not have "dasea" (ie Φ / Χ / Θ) letters, Χ was merged with Σ and thus Χ assmued the ΧΣ sound (ie the sound of the later Attic Ξ and Latin X). [Again, this indicates that different cities (etc) had different conventions about the use of their letters, let alone that the may have had different "phonetic pallete".] And this is what Erasmus fails most at; the sounds of "psila" (Κ / Τ / Π), mesa (Γ / Δ / Β) and dasea (Χ / Θ / Φ); Firstly, according to Erasmus's pronunciation one cannot explain the namings of psila /mesa/ dasea themselves (eg if Erasmian sounds apply then we would have "mesa" (ie "middle") to what exactly...?), also one cannot explain the Δ to Λ shift (Odysseus / Ulixes, daphne /laurel, lacrima /dacrima, which also streches to modern Italic dialects/languages with "DD/LL" etc), and one cannot explain why the daseia was lost in the beginning of words but would somehow reappear in the dasea letters (ie if Φ / Χ / Θ sounded simply as Π / Κ / T + daseia, then why was there a need for dasea letters to exist and not carry on with merely the psila, as, again, daseia (ie roughly Latin H) was anyway not written in Greek). In other words, it is apparent that the pronunciation of Π / Κ / T themselves had to change and not merely add an extra daseia (ie H) sound after them as this (ie effectively making them sound like "double" consonants) would be redundant. Therefore what Erasmus did was (what you describe in 36:00 about Germans and Italians) to pronounce Greek by using phthongs/phonetics that are more common in Germanic and some Latin (ie not Spanish or even south Italic) languages, ie in the way that Germanic peoples (etc) would pronounce MODERN Greek according to their phonetic pallete (ie delta as D and not TH, chi as KH and not strong H, etc) which is by definition "barbarism" in the historic use of the term that means "not Greek". But your "assumptions" go, as clearly stated in 37:12, as far as assuming/presupposing that "modern Greek is even further from the ancient pronunciation of ancient Greek than Erasmian is". I mean, really, it begs the question where did you find, and how did you measure, this... It sounds patronizing, as if only you know and have the pronunciation "medicine" that everyone is supposedly looking for. And what do you mean by "ancient Greek"? Is not Koine "ancient Greek", and how different is it from modern Greek according to you? More than Erasmian is? Or is it perhaps better to simply dismiss reasonable objections from Greeks by putting on a condescending smile? Do you perhaps think that Greeks are not good enough to find the pronunciation of the language that they natively speak for millenia? Sorry but, would not such a claim sound at least patronizing? About what you say regarding West and East having a "schism" and this affecting language and pronunciation, this has manifestations even to this day. For example, native English speakers do not know the percentage of the, directly OR INDIRECTLY, Greek-derived words in English... Konstantinides actually counted this percentage based on the numbers of Greek words in famous English dictionaries, without using etymologies of his own, or ones that are not nowadays commonly accepted as Greek (eg he did not include words like "select", "grass" (etc) that are to be found as Greek-derived words in [older] dictionaries like that of George William Lemon), while he did not even count half-Greek-derived words like "tele-vision" (he found a percentage of more that 25% Greek-derived words in Merriam Webster, not to mention scientific/specialized lexicons/dictionaries... www.akonstantinidis.gr/contribution_in_numbers.html ). In an interview he said that the professor who checked his methodology, in order for him to receive an award once, enquired him specifically about some etymologies of Latin words. Konstantinides then had to point out that there was a little cross next to these words that one needed a magnifying glass to see, and this little cross indicated that the etymological analysis would simply stop to Latin and not go before that. The professor then held his head with his hands and said something like "Oh my, I had never realized this to this day!!" Konstantinides explained also in this lecture (which is on KZbin) that the "Westerners" just wanted to burry the Greek elements after the fall of Constantinople in order to advance Latin, and that there are historic pieces of evidence to this direction (which tradition goes to Fallmerayer and further till present times)... Yet this is merely a quite telling example, while the ramifications of faulty pronunciation systems mirror also to the reconstruction of words and etymologies and that is quite problematic and "dangerous" especially in the "Protestant-derived" ethics/principles of their linguistic methodology where, like with their approach to religious history from Christ to 1500 AD, they feel comfortable to simply ignore all the historic accounts of the Greek pronunciation (eg that Latin is basically Aeolic Greek with altered pronunciation) and just start from Erasmian trying to link it straight with some supposed variety of Classical Attic, while taking as facts the pressupositions that suit them and their native-phonetic pallete, which pressupostitions are in fact mere [already proven wrong on many levels, even by "hard" pieces of evidence; eg Praeneste fibula] hypotheses. Of course, they at the same time not only not care about historic truth, but also about the spill over effect in the Greek education system, where ancient Greek, that is very close to modern Greek on many levels and therefore Greeks rely on both varieties to understand their language, becomes incomprehensible and detached...

[@vassman1]

As a greek, there is something oddly satisfying about hearing a non-greek pronounce greek perfectly.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Too kind

[@nef_lk9129]

I agree with you 😊

[@charlyromeo7926]

He looks like Greek Linguist to me...

[@janeza382]

@@charlyromeo7926 No he is Roman trying to speak Macedonian and he think it is "Greek".

[@cafefortuna]

@@janeza382 your Macedonian is Slavic end the story.

[@larsfrisk6658]

Me: sees 45 minute video about the pronunciation of two letters in a language I don’t speak Also me: watches the whole thing

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Hehe I’m glad you liked it! Yeah, it’s a reaaaalllly complex topic. I’ll be covering every major sound in the language.

[@georgios_5342]

At least I speak the language 😅

[@amos259]

Top comment, and good that you watched it!

[@bobthabuilda1525]

@@polyMATHY_Luke Can't wait to see you go through the sounds. GREAT content!

[@seidlag]

Just did the same hahaha

[@nickolasmarmaras]

I'm greek, also a playwright and an actor who studied Latin and ancient greek at school. So, you can guess how important your channel is to me! I'm genuinely thrilled I just discovered you, and thank you from the bottom of my heart. Keep up the good work, you just gained a new subscriber!

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Ευχαριστώ!

[@peterlongan]

All my Ancient Greek teachers need to watch this.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Thanks! Please show it to them 😊

[@ThePdeHav]

Agreed

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

That’s a nice summary of evidence, Riccardo! But it just supports the conclusion of Allen, Horrocks, Gignac and many others that this is the long vowel /e:/ in all environments. Interpreting the merger (because it was a merger, by 6cBC) as /ei/ instead of /e:/ would be possible only if we disregard what other dialects do and that nature of Greek itself, which is to monophthongize. With that in mind, /ei/ remains extremely unlikely, at any time from 6cBC forward. The Ionian system reduces ambiguity, of course, which is why it wad adopted. It only increases ambiguity if any of the ει represent a diphthong in late 5cBC (and none of them do). Thus the evidence you cite and your observation about possible ambiguity further demonstrate the necessity of this being a monophthong, even in the verbal ending βούλει.

[@RiccardoRadici]

@@polyMATHY_Luke Thanks! That's a clear answer and I understand your point. If you (and Allen, etc.) are right, that's very good, because it would be easier to study Attic pronunciation (without doing case by case analysis for ει). My only doubt is: if ει was already a merger for /e:/ in the Attic alphabet, why weren't all /e:/ merged to ει, but just some of them? Allen speaks of historical spelling, but that would make sense for all ex /e:/ which came to be written as ει. Why did some retain their older form and some did not?

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Right, so like I mentioned in the video, the long /e:/ was written Ε as the standard spelling until 403 BC. But many of those were written as EI as a frequent spelling mistake in 6cBC and 5cBC. That’s how we know the merger with earlier /ei/ was already completed.

[@panproteus]

Wow, I just spent 45 minutes listening about ει and loved it completely. I wish I had such entertaining ancient greek lessons back in the day.

[@iberius9937]

Ancient Greek has never been taught, in more recent times, that is, in the comprehensible and engaging manner in which it is taught today.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Thanks so much! Very kind of you

[@iberius9937]

@@polyMATHY_Luke Nōn sōlum quīa generōsum sum, sed quīa vērum est. 😁

[@eemmiill201]

I’ve interacted with far too many people who either claim that the Erasmian pronunciation is completely correct, and those who claim that Greek pronunciation has never changed and sounded the same 2000 years ago as it does today. Thank you for shedding some light on this often misunderstood topic!

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Thanks for your comment! Yes I’ve had similar experiences

[@klausbrinck2137]

There can be a debate if greek has or hasn´t changed in 2000 years. But Erasmus had too little evidence to even come near a correct pronunciation. How do you explain the simple fact, that one of the oldest and most developed languages ever (along with the civilisation), ought to be the single one that has the privilege to sound like slaying hell-dogs (Erasmian pronunciation), while later greek sounds as normal as any other language does...?

[@arsnova69]

@@klausbrinck2137 Exactly. Every reconstruction of ancient Greek pronunciation should start with modern Greek as reference. It's the same with a lost object. You begin the search from the last place you used it, not from a random corner in the house.

[@Okynous]

As a Greek I can (hopefully) say that I speak for most when stating that we are grateful for the efforts that foreigners make to revive/study our culture, as this is how most of us learn about it. Any Greeks being aggressive towards such efforts should be dismissed as imbeciles.

[@andrewgeary9749]

I am a Classics major right now, and before starting I visited Crete, and went to Cyprus for Late Bronze Age archaeology in 2019. Before going I started learning Modern Greek, and though I'm more experienced with Attic now, Modern Greek gives me insights and made adjusting easier. But I've found no other students who have done the same or even professors at my school, only Homer til maybe 300 AD, but mostly Attic. And frankly most don't understand the Late Bronze Age in depth, even though that's what a lot of these works are set in! I don't know why they don't encourage Classics students to do engage with other periods, it's given me perspective to what I'm learning.

[@TheFlyingGreekman]

Πάνε να κάνεις παρέα με τους Παπικούς.

[@Okynous]

@@TheFlyingGreekman Που κολλάνε οι Παπικοί;

[@FAQIvan91]

How wonderful is the word "imbecile"? ❤️

[@andrewgeary9749]

@@xunqianbaidu6917 definitely, in several of my papers this quarter, I am writing about the anachronism these works are written in. It's ironic because of our emphasis on "accuracy" and analyzing the ways the works are used/misrepresented in modern history, when they themselves are presenting history anachronistically. It's completely understandable, but still interesting.

[@orthochristos]

Finally, some based explanation of the "ει" pronunciation conundrum!! It was getting sick to my stomach with all the tongue-twisting, ridiculous accents of the Erasmian style of ancient Greek words (granted, I am a Greek and thus biased...). But still, it was as if Erasmus had become synonymous with some kind of language deity, whose findings could never be challenged!! Great work, sir.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Ευχαριστώ πολύ. Yes, if Erasmian were spoken with the intonation and accent of a Modern Greek speaker, it would sound a lot better. Often Greeks hate Erasmian because it’s spoken with a really strong German or British or American accent. In the Lucian Pronunciation I am seeking to imitate Greeks as much as I can to reduce my American accent.

[@orthochristos]

@@polyMATHY_Luke Παρακαλώ, φίλτατε. Συνέχισε ακάθεκτος!

[@hyacinthe7]

@@polyMATHY_Luke Indeed, although Erasmian is pretty much spot on regarding most of the consonants, I find that the vowel pronunciation is so Anglicized, as if the ancients spoke like your modern Englishman.

[@abrahemsamander3967]

Polymath. Thats what I thought! I wish to learn Latin and Greek. And I always thought “why don’t people pronounce Ancient Greek with the reconstructed sounds mixed with a modern accent?” This was a great video!

[@Francys5FS]

@@orthochristos forza Erasmo! La sua pronuncia è la migliore

[@iberius9937]

Historical phonology and etymology are the building blocks of linguistics and two intertwined topics that I cannot get enough of.

[@areianara86]

Greek here, I feel I want to thank you for all this wonderful effort, presentation, your strong points (επιχειρήματα). I love your job. I think that for modern Greece the absence of a smooth succession from the Greek-linked eastern Roman empire to a state that would lead to modern Greek state is a key problem. That caused a need to adopt and create a national identity that could inspire modern Greeks. That's the key I think we have some over emotional reactions facing research results that possibly aren't exactly what we believe about ourselves. It could be said that the ottoman period as was viewed after liberation functioned as trauma in psychology.

[@areianara86]

Excuse me for the use of English I try to express as precisely as I can my original thoughts!

[@stelioskatsampadimas1693]

ΦΙΛΕ Η ΟΡΘΟΔΟΞΗ ΕΚΚΛΗΣΙΑ ΧΡΗΣΙΜΟΠΟΙΕΙ ΑΝΕΚΑΘΕΝ ΤΗΝ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΣΤΙΚΗ ΚΟΙΝΗ ΜΕΧΡΙ ΣΗΜΕΡΑ. Η ΟΡΘΟΔΟΞΙΑ ΕΣΩΣΕ ΚΑΙ ΤΗΝ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΗ ΓΛΩΣΣΑ.

[@tm2bow653]

The West despised eastern roman Empire, so many members of the modern Greek elit also started despising it. But it's very easy to ''touch'' eastern roman culture again. This can start by reading Middle ages Greek litterature, going to churches etc. Modern Greeks are the children of Eastern Roman Empire / Byzantium.

[@crusaderACR]

@@tm2bow653 That's nonsense. The West never hated the ERE. Im not saying ALL Western countries were friendly ALL the time but the hostility was mostly from the side of the Greeks.

[@tm2bow653]

@@crusaderACR The West destroyed the ERE in 1204 and cut it into pieces. And there are a lot of texts showing the haste of the west against the ERE since 1054.

[@bennycarter5249]

The word ‘digraph’ has a digraph in it.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Quite so!

[@Glossologia]

@Skain While diphthong has three digraphs but no diphthongs 😞

[@silasfrisenette9226]

@@Glossologia daiphthaung 💃

[@dacodastrack7271]

@@silasfrisenette9226 🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@tonpap]

As a greek philology student, I really enjoyed your video: very accurate info and very well presented. I just have a couple of suggestions you might wish to consider: 1) literature written in ancient greek continued to exist many centuries after 600 AD (even after 1453 AD, fall of Constantinople) coexisting and overpowering (in written) the koine (vernacular) language. 2) After 1453 the majority οf greek scholars escaped to Italy and other West European countries. Among them, Georgios Charitonimos (student of Gemistus Pletho) based in Paris was mentioned among the teachers of Erasmus. So Erasmus has not necessarily learned about the ancient greek pronunciation through Latin sources only. By the way your pronunciation of both ancient and modern Greek is amazing!

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Ευχαριστώ, Τόνια! 😃 Thanks! Yes, I am very well aware of both points! I didn't mean to cut off Eastern Roman literature, as I love the works of Anna Komnene and Procopius, among others. These are simply classified as "Mediaeval Greek" by various scholars based on their time period, not necessarily their style. But all of these wonderfully complex details I will be talking about in future videos! since I love Greek literature and history. Justinian and Theodora are my heroes! True Romans, true Greeks, true Κυρῖτες! 🇬🇷 ♥️

[@BenGristUK]

FINALLY! The amount of times I've had to explain my pronunciation to those using the Erasmian pronunciation, thinking I'm wrong

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Heh thanks! What pronunciation do you like to use?

[@BenGristUK]

@@polyMATHY_Luke Great video! Haha I guess nowadays primarily Reconstructed Koine according to Ben Kantor's documentation over at koinegreek (dotcom) which I guess originates back from Buth at BLC! I enjoy your Lucian pronunciation and feels very similar (enough) to communicate in

[@anastasiossioulas83]

Great video. I was thinking that there are some remnants inside the Greek language. As ύψιλον exist today v must have been existed like in λευκός. Also as vowels and consonants some utility structure the pronunciation and the logic of the language like in tonicity and synairesis.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

@@BenGristUK Thanks! Ah that's great. One of the goals of Lucian Pronunciation is that it be intelligible to users both of Buth Koine as well as Erasmsian and 5cBC Classical Attic. So far, it seems to be succeeding!

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

@@anastasiossioulas83 I'm very flattered to hear that! Thanks

[@apmoy70]

38:47 Dear Luke, we do have a knee-jerk reaction concerning the pronunciation of Classical/Koine Greek mostly because of the criticism we have received, and the debasing some of us have experienced, by Erasmian "purists", who consider the modern pronunciation of the ancient language a sacrilege. The thing is we have so much inherited vocabulary from the ancient language, and so many identical words, so the convention at our schools is "use the modern pronunciation for all". I mean, why should a 15 year old middle schooler pronounce θάλασσα as /θálasa/ today, but when reading some ancient writer must change it to /tʰálasːaː/? Extra burden and doesn't offer anything. Sure, our teachers should have invested more on teaching or explaining the linguistic development and the gradual sound shift our language underwent, but they don't do it. Perhaps for them it's not material for middle schoolers. There are of course those ultranationalists (always!) who consider Greek the most sublime, empowering, divine language ever conceived (if you're interested there are a few hilarious videos on YT) eager to always begin a vigorous polemic against anyone who ever suggested that this "divine language" underwent a soundshift! It's impossible for them the language of the gods and Zeus to change (true story!). Just to remind you, you've chosen to deal with a language spoken in the geographic area that is now Greece, with a history of polemics over the usage of language that began with Aristotle who debases his contemporary writers for using the "new vernacular language" as the older language is always better (τιμιώτατον μὲν γὰρ τὸ πρεσβύτατον), and ended in...1982, just 39 years ago! PS: Great video as always!

[@andrewgeary9749]

I've yet to watch this video, but as a Classics student (both Latin and Attic) and having heard the "academic" pronunciation at least as it stands in U.S. schools, I can tell you I greatly prefer recordings I've heard from Greeks reading with Attic pronunciation. When we read aloud in class, there is absolutely no attempt at accent even if we get sounds roughly right, and so ἐγώ sounds like "egg-o," and as though Socrates was born in California. A Greek person has understood the inherent subtleties of the language, either active or vestigial, their whole life and can adjust to the necessary differences quicker. So at the international academic level, I'd say there is a consensus on an essentially "neutered" form of pronunciation for the language. Technically correct, and makes it so people from different areas can speak/understand the same text at conferences or in lectures, but not how it would have sounded. While truly recreating accents is impossible, the recordings I've heard of native Greek speakers are much closer.

[@darthmath1071]

@@andrewgeary9749 were you thinking about Podium-Arts by any chance ? The guy is amazing

[@andrewgeary9749]

@@darthmath1071 The recordings I've heard are just audiobook recordings and I'm not sure who in particular. I'll check that out though thank you! It's pretty documented people who hear the language they're trying to learn have faster attainment in comprehension/memory than people only reading internally and aloud, so when I can I try to listen to at least part of it in Attic Greek. And because it is so similar I take in Modern Greek when I'm not exhausted, it's pretty rare to go a whole sentence without finding something insightful to Attic Greek, and Classics not using this is a shortfall.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Great points, ὦ φίλτατε Ἀποστόλη! I feel what you're saying. And like I say in the video, I think the only really important part of the ancient sound system worth teaching is phonemic syllable length, since it gives intuitive access to the poetry. I might make a few recordings like that, as I have with Ecclesiastical Latin, to demonstrate the pros and cons of such an approach.

[@FAQIvan91]

Oh well... At least it ended 😅

[@Robert89349]

I wish our Ancient Greek teachers in schools in Greece would spend some time to explain to us how the sound shifts happened in our language all the way to modern Greek pronunciation. It would at least give us the reason why we had to constantly struggle during primary school with the complex orthography of modern Greek, because of all the letters that ended up being homophones. I understand though that the reason of teaching ancient Greek in Greek schools is mostly for the students to actually better understand the roots of the modern language and using the modern pronunciation when reading ancient texts brings familiarity and helps a lot in showing the continuation of the language. But I wish there would be some chapters in their teaching where we could really learn about the approximate sound that each letter was used for during different periods of the language. Great video, ευχαριστούμε πολύ!

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

I agree with you! Ευχαριστώ, Αλέξανδρε!

[@stefanosanagnostou6797]

Τα βιβλία του γυμνασίου εξηγούν ορισμένες πτυχές της προφοράς, ωστόσο, πράγματι, οι καθηγητές τα παραλείπουν.

[@arsnova69]

Δεν φταινε οι καθηγητές, φταιει το εκπαιδευτικό συστημα που σκόπιμα απαξιώνει τα αρχαια ελληνικα. Τα βιβλια ειχαν αρκετές λεπτομέρεις για την πιθανη προφορά καθε φθογγου. Αλλα οι καθηγητές οταν κυνηγανε να βγαλουν την υλη σαν τρελοι, σπανια θα αφιερώσουν χρόνο. Τα ελληνικά, ως ολότητα, θα επρεπε να διδάσκονται από το δημοτικό ακομα, συστηματικά, με αντίστροφη ιστορική πορεία ξεκινώντας απο τα νέα, μεσαιωνικά, ελληνιστικά, κλασικά και τελος τα ομηρικα. Ετσι η δυσκολία θα ήταν κλιμκούμενη και θα ειχαμε και πληρέστερη γνωση της γλωσσας μας.

[@manny9639]

Amazing pronunciation, amazing work, and great representation of the Greek language. Thank you truly Luke! I dedicate this quote to you, from Plato: "Γηράσκω ἀεὶ διδασκόμενος" a.k.a "I still learn even as I get older". Thank you once again!!!

[@PotDylan]

Greek viewer here. I am intrested in and attracted by languages but for some reason Ancient Greek never stuck with me, although it was taught in school. You for some reason sparked an interest to the evolution of my native language and its pronounciation. For that you've earned yourself a new subscriber :)

[@androsdiamond]

Me: talking with my mother about the ancient greek pronunciation, two days ago (we're greek and she's an archaeologist and philologist) My phone out of nowhere: heard that, bitch I've got u covered

[@FAQIvan91]

Philologist 🤩 I wish to get there sooner or later

[@Adriana.Gabriela]

What's your mum's name? I might have listened to some of her guest lectures in college if she ever gave any outside Greece. (I have a Masters' in Aegean bronze age and we've had a lot of guest lecturers from Greece at my college)

[@nineteenfortyeight]

😬

[@ntscribe]

Fantastic presentation, Luke! I wanted to extend my gratitude for encouraging us to use the pronunciation convensions we have learned without shame. I've been dabbling with Erasmian Greek for 40 years, and it has been a valuable me, despite its deviation from historical accuracy. I now read with both a modern and Erasminan pronunciation. Wish I had a mentor like you decades ago! Your passion for language is truly a treasure. for Greek and Latin students everywhere.

[@panayiotisgiannikos6337]

Thank you, Luke. I find this to be the most appropriate approach to the ongoing dilemma and controversy on the pronunciation of Greek.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Ευχαριστώ!

[@anastasios9064]

Dear Luke congratulations συγχαρητήρια! Last month my 7 year old son was taught at school that despite the fact that he sees written in his first grade book the dipthong ει he must pronounce it ι in modern greek (the same a with οι, η). I explained to him that we still keep in writing the orthography of ancient greeks that pronounced letters in a different way but our language evolved in what today is called modern greek. He didn't have any problem in accepting my explanation as it sounded very logical to him. So it is strange to me how some people cannot accept the fact that our ancestors sounded diffentent than us today! Your videos are very educative and interesting. Συνέχισε!

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Γεια σου, Αναστάσιε! Ευχαριστώ πολύ

[@misselle1885]

I'm Greek and I always used to wonder why scholars from other countries pronounce the letters in diphthongs separately or why they don't pronounce some letters like θ, δ, β, υ etc the way we do in Greece. For the longest time I though that it was only a matter of accent, kind of like when we, Greeks end up sounding a bit funny when we speak English, because of our r's and things like that🤣.Only one or two years ago did I find out that in ancient times diphthongs and some letters as well weren't pronounced the way we pronounce them in modern Greek and that the way you learn to pronounce them in foreign universities is basically correct. I was surprised, because when we learn ancient Greek in middle and high school, or when we quote ancient Greek in our daily lives, we always pronounce the words the same way we pronounce them in modern Greek. Great video! You're awesome!

[@62peppe62]

It happens something similar in Italy where we learn latin with the ecclesiastical pronounciation more similar to modern italian pronounciation.

[@misselle1885]

@@62peppe62 Yeah, exactly, I've noticed that too. I sometimes like listening to catholic hymns and psalms and the words there are pronounced a bit differently from what we learn in Latin class at school here. But it still sounds great cause I love Italian, too.

[@62peppe62]

@Jordan Rodrigues :D

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Ναι! Είναι αλήθεια. Ευχαριστώ πολύ!

[@Lara__]

Unfortunately in Greece we try to speak English with a good pronunciation but we don't show the same respect for our own ancient language and we butcher it with modern Greek pronunciation. This channel gives me hope

[@Arissef]

Fun fact (15:52): the word "if" is "jei" in modern Lithuanian, and the "ei" is a true diphthong, which is pronounced something like "ay" in the English word "say" (the "j" is pronounced as "y" in "yes").

[@ChrysovalandesSophocleous]

learned more from this guy than i learned in 12 years in Greek school about that :>

[@pierreabbat6157]

From what I've read, the /s/ between vowels in Greek disappeared by turning into /h/, not /z/. An example is the genitive of "genus". Greek: genesos -> genehos -> geneos -> genous (γένους) Latin: genesis -> genezis -> generis The 'r' in "genera", by the way, is cognate with the 'r' in some German plural endings, in particular that in "Lämmer", which in Proto-Germanic belonged to the same neuter s-declension (called z-stem when talking about PGmc because, by the reconstructed stage, it had already turned to /z/), which was rhotacized just like Latin.

[@aryyancarman705]

This s to r transition thingy is seen by me in Latin and Germannic languages boþ, dont know why? r and s sound nothing alike

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

You are correct! h, not r. (Some have proposed r, but h makes more sense)

@@aryyancarman705 The middle point between s and r is z, at least for some kind of r's

Exactly, that s > h evolution is a very common phonetic phenomenon, as is the total drop of h later. You can hear it even in some dialectal forms of Spanish, at the end of syllables, or even at the beginning in especially careless pronunciation. That this mutation happened in Greek at least in certain environments is proved graphically by the rough breathing at the beginning of many words that have cognates starting with s in other languages, like the word seven, and the later disappearance of the rough breathing.

[@tiagorodrigues3730]

@@aryyancarman705 It is actually quite common; in both cases (Latin and North Germanic) it passed through an intermediate stage of s > z > r, and I suspect that between z and r there is a voiced apical alveolar fricative interstage (it is not a common sound cross-linguistically, so even IPA doesn't really have a sound for it, but it is the voiced version of Basque s).

[@HeWhoComments]

Luke’s voice = soooo smooth Keep up the good work!

[@alexandernorris8189]

Wonderful, thanks so much for this video! This was one of my biggest issues with your pronunciation of Ancient Greek, and it's fascinating to have that cleared up

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Ah thanks! Yeah it needed to be discussed for this very reason. I’ve spent years thinking about this, as you can see 😃

[@GeorgiosMichalopoulos]

Excellent! Was looking for a clear explanation for a long time.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Ευχαριστώ πολύ! I’m really glad you liked it!

[@go-alexandra]

I am so grateful for your efforts concerning the details of ancient Greek pronunciation. I really enjoyed all the details and I look forward to watch your other videos. Thank you!

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Thanks for the nice comment, Alexandra

[@lefcant]

Great video, Luke! You recapitulated about a semester of historical linguistics worth (as I was taught it at the University of Athens at least) in 45 minutes and I dare say you went into more detail. The term used for the distinction is νόθη vs γνήσια δίφθογγος by the way and is applicable in the same way for (γνήσια from IE *ou̯ and νόθη from contraction of ο + ε or ο + ο) but it's less important for your purposes as no one seems inclined to pronounce as [ow] in the classical texts.

[@BulletTheEnforcer]

Take my upvote! The quality of your videos reminds me of some of the excellent, well-produced educational content that I used to watch on PBS as a kid. It wasn’t “kid media”; I used to watch a lot of history and science documentaries as a child. I hope that my comment doesn’t offend you. It was meant as a complement. It’s refreshing to find a KZbinr who delves into and explains competently the subject matter of the video.

[@christosmpourazanis9284]

Χαιρετίσματα από Αθήνα φίλε Λουκά! Your work on ancient greek and latin pronunciation is the best as far as i know, I've studied many books for both languages even from Cambridge and other universities and scholars but none has ever succeeded at this level of accuracy. I've only a question about primary sources for i my self am working also on the classical languages as a graduate student of history and archaeology. So here's the thing, ok we know all these things comparing the sounds that Latin speakers tried to imitate for greek et cetera but what about the "philologists" of that period that actually wrote down in detail grammars and tried to analyze the spoken language of their time for example Dionysius the Thracian and other grammarians. I'd like to know more about those kind of source it would be extremely useful. Again excellent video, keep up the good work! Υγιαινε!

[@mitsaroni1]

Είσαι ψαγμένος και μετράς! Συνέχισε και μην πτοείσαι. Πολλοί ΝΕΟ - Έλληνες δεν διαθέτουν το κατάλληλο γνωσιακό υπόβαθρο, ώστε να κατανοήσουν αυτά που λες. Είναι κρίμα, βρισκόμαστε σε περίοδο παρακμής, όσον αφορά τις γνώσεις μας για την ιστορία μας. Great job! Thank you! Keep on!

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Ευχαριστώ πολύ, φίλε μου!

[@thekoalacat4246]

16:34 Correction: esi > ehi > εἶ In Proto-Greek /s/ was debuccalized to /h/ intervocalically 27:15 Attic corresponds to Boeotian and not

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

The latter is indeed generally agreed upon, yes; the rhotic hypothesis also exists. The latter is not. Read Horrocks for more on this.

[@weirdlanguageguy]

Very interesting! Watching this was an excellent use of my time.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Thanks for watching, Linguist!

[@weirdlanguageguy]

@@polyMATHY_Luke You're welcome

[@marcmalki734]

I WOULD LOVE TO LEARN MORE ANCIENT Greek from such a wonderful teacher! What a charming and precise languagge teacher.

[@craighughes536]

I’m learn modern Greek and it’s very interesting to hear pronunciation in Ancient Greek...I’m polymathy ‘learning lots’

[@ANT-ck5wq]

As far as i am concerned you are GreeK.Therefore family.Your knowledge work and ήθος is exceptional.Thank you brother.

[@dionysiapanagou6035]

Some of my fellow countrymen have to reconsider the meaning of the word "barbarian". It is really sad when it is used to confront people who really love the Greek civilization. Thanks a lot for putting so much effort on this. I really get inspired by these videos every time. 👏👏👏

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Ευχαριστώ πολύ, Διονύσια! ♥️ 🇬🇷

[@greekancientjustice]

Διονυσία η λέξη βάρβαροι δεν αναφέρεται στους φιλέλληνες φυσικά, οι οποίοι και αποτελούν την εξαίρεση, που επιβεβαιώνει τον κανόνα...

[@dionysiapanagou6035]

@@greekancientjustice Αναφέρομαι σε εκείνους που ενώ δεν έχουν ιδέα κατακρίνουν οποιονδήποτε εκφράζει μια γνώμη διαφορετική από αυτήν που έχουν συνηθίσει ή μάθει να ακουν, ακόμη και εάν ο άλλος έχει "φάει" τη ζωή του να μελετάει αυτά τα θέματα, μονο και μόνο επειδή δεν θεωρείται Έλληνας. Καταλαβαίνω ότι την ευαισθησία από μέρους μας γι'αυτα που νιώθουμε δικά μας, αλλά ας ακούμε και τους άλλους που έχουν κάτι σοβαρό να μας πουν. Αυτό ήταν το νόημα του σχολίου μου εν γένει. Ευχαριστώ για την επισήμανση.

[@greekancientjustice]

@ΕΛΛΑΣ Ή ΤΕΦΡΑ Εσύ τι θες να πεις;

[@henrylansing9734]

Graecia delende est

[@Jon-mh9lk]

16:00 This reminded me of Plutarchs explanation of the "E" at Delphi.

[@georgios_5342]

0:39 my god do I love how you nail those slight pronunciation changes. Many foreign people learning Greek, and even Greeks learning English, cannot even distinguish the s from the Greek σ sound. It's like one third of the way from s to sh (that's how I feel) but because Greek only has one s related sound, most Greeks don't recognize the difference and most foreigners have a very hard time adapting. It's stuff like that that makes you seem almost like a native speaker. Σ'ευχαριστούμε πολύ Λουκά, συνέχισε δυναμικά! 👍👍👍

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

That’s terribly kind of you, φίλε μου! 😃 I am doing an intense study of more advanced Ancient Greek at the moment, and then it’ll be Modern Greek! I want to be able to converse, and also, to make my AG sound more like MG with the σ and other details like you mention. Thanks again!

[@mikedaniel1771]

After playing through Assassins Creed Odyssey with Kassandra I finally got to hear the right Geek pronunciation 😉 including the soft S

[@hyacinthe7]

What are you talking about? The English s is identical in sound to the Greek σ. It just so happens that, depending on the word, s in English can be pronounced like σ or ζ. As for sh, it's pretty much always written as two letters.

[@Glossologia]

@@hyacinthe7 It's not identical, no. The English /s/ is laminal, or alternatively fronted /s̻/. The Greek /s/ is apical, or alternatively retracted /s̺ ~ s̠/. This retracted s is also used in languages like Icelandic, Dutch, European Spanish, and Finnish, while the English s is used in Italian, Mexican Spanish, German, etc. It's not a matter of voicing (s vs z) but rather of tongue position, and the position of the tongue for Greek /s/ is basically halfway in between the position of the tongue for English 's' and English 'sh' [ʃ]. In fact, all of those languages I listed that have a fronted or laminal s like English have a [ʃ] sound, while the ones that have the retracted or apical s like Greek do not have a [ʃ] sound. That said, there are some, very rare languages, that have all three sounds. Basque, a language isolate spoken in the Iberian peninsula, distinguishes /s̻/, /s̺ /and /ʃ/ as three different phonemes. Old Spanish also used to have the same distinction, but now it only retains the retracted s. There is also one romance language, Mirandés, that has all three of these tongue positions as well, and unlike Basque it also has the voiced equivalents /z̻/, /z̺/, /ʒ/. So, the upshot is that our Greek friend is totally correct, and Luke has actually made a very explicit effort to learn to properly pronounce the retracted/apical s.

[@georgios_5342]

@@hyacinthe7 that's what I'm talking about lol. The fact that many Greeks can't figure out that the English s is different in pronunciation (though ever so slightly) to Greek σ. Actually this one, together with the rolling r, is one of the key features of the heavy Greek accent in English.

[@vassilikikaye6261]

Χαιρετισμούς από την Ελλάδα! Greetings from Hellas (Greece )

[@bridgerbond]

Great video. I am still working on my Greek and this helps a ton. I was taught Erasmian pronunciation and used it the last few years. However, I want to sound more Greek and not 'American' when I read Greek. I do like Modern pronunciation for the practical use for communicating today.

[@patrickohooliganpl]

@@scintillam_dei Do you know about the strange coincidences of Basque and Japanese: otsuma.repo.nii.ac.jp/?action=repository_action_common_download&item_id=5795&item_no=1&attribute_id=18&file_no=1

[@georgethanos7700]

I think that abandoning what you are doing would be a crime. Keep going. Excellent work. ΑΡΙΣΤΟΣ.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Thanks!

[@Dorian_ball]

4:56 - 5:01 in Android 11, are available the International Phonetic Alphabet and Eclesiastical Slavic keyboards.

[@Eumanel12]

Dude you seem to be the reincarnation of the Roman Empire itself

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Haha that's terribly kind!

[@DieFlabbergast]

If you ask me, he's been around since at least 1,000 B.C. He's definitely older than he looks :)

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Haha what a life that would be! I’m just a guy. Really, I think most people can do what I’ve been able to do, and I hope my videos inspire folks to try it if they want.

[@Cranb]

@@polyMATHY_Luke They have done exactly that

[@gypsyguy40]

@@polyMATHY_Luke shut up.

[@distheone9120]

Hey ! I just want to let you know that your videos made me want to learn Ancient Greek, even though most people want me to learn a "modern" language such as italian or spanish, but I've always been fascinated by the history of Grece but way too afraid to even consider learning it. I'm 16 years old, I speak french, english and arabic and I hope to add Ancient Greek (+ maybe Latin) to this list. I also hope I could manage to study for school AND learn Ancient Greek at the same time 😭

[@citricdemon]

I identify deeply with who you are and can't help but feel a kinship with you. I hope you are doing well and that you find it undifficult to find joys in life, and that you are not plagued with the insecurities I am. I admire you and the personality you show yourself to have.

[@troubauk]

Φοβερό βίντεο, ευχαριστούμε!

[@robinlutjohann6408]

Appreciate your irenic attitude and broad, welcoming spirit! Eucharisto!

[@TrueSonOfSkyrim]

This video and by extension your channel has been a true gem, your presentation of your knowledge and research, explaining the content in an easy way to comprehend is really enjoyable. I could be biased because of love for Rome and Greece however!!

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Thanks so much!

[@ramsesnagib]

SUBSCRIBED. You are a great teacher Luke! Also thanks for using the Νειλος word example, it gave me a pleasant feeling because I am Egyptian. And thanks for using Αλεξάνδρεια example, it is my home city, LOL.

[@rodrigodepierola]

Great video. Always nice to see the different dialects of ancient Greek and their different pronunciations. You mention "theta" being pronounced as "teta" in Italian. In Spanish, the same thing happens, and, of course, it makes Trigonometry classes more fun. When the teacher says "Find the sine of Theta" in Spanish it's be "Halla el seno de Teta" but since "seno" means bossom (or, mor comonly but incorrectly, breast) and teta means "tit" and if you add that Trigonometry comes just and the cusp of adolesence, it makes your day.

[@wordart_guian]

that must make that late gravity falls sound different in spanish

[@pierreabbat6157]

Leftpondian or Rightpondian Spanish? How do they pronounce "zeta"?

[@rodrigodepierola]

@@wordart_guian I don't get the reference, sorry. I know the exists, but little else.

[@rodrigodepierola]

@@pierreabbat6157 Left. We pronounce it "seh-ta".

[@aryyancarman705]

Hah

[@riadrossos-usa4415]

I’m Greek speaking a little ancient Greek language. You are amazing. Thank you . Χάριν σοι ἔχω…

[@skatobetho]

Love the channel, I am from Cyprus and I think the Cypriot dialect with the mixture of Venitian, Latin, Greek of many time periods, Arabic, Persian, Armenian and im sure others. In my grandma's village they use to call a cup "Cantila" but wasn't used by my grandma she mentioned it was used by her grandparents. She would call a cup "Potiri" while in Greek it can be "koupa" (which is bowl in Cypriot) or even "Kypellaki" which can be considered a cup in Greece.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Φυσικά! Beautiful variety.

[@DomingosCJM]

Correlation in portuguese, cantila -> cantil (an object used by military to drink water) Potiri -> Pote (an object in form of a small jar that can hold food or sand) Koupa -> Copo (a cup).

[@Rosx1000]

É necessário fazer justiça, pedi por legendas (SUBTITLES) e gentilmente o professor atendeu... Sei que não precisa sair comentando em tudo quanto é video, no entanto, fiquei tão contente com esse detalhe que vim agradecer !!

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

😊

[@yianniskatsos7012]

As a Greek, I have to admit that when non-Greek people pronounced Ancient Greek words so differently to the sound of Modern Greek, I assumed they were doing it wrong. I vaguely knew that the ancient language sounded different but couldn’t imagine it would sound that foreign to me. I had no idea that there was actually such controversy over this, with some Greek teachers believing the pronunciation has actually stayed exactly the same (I didn’t do high school in Greece). Now I appreciate that when people saying Ancient Greek words sounds strange to me, for all I know they’re saying it more accurately than I would - ευχαριστώ πολύ για το βίντεο!

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Ευχαριστώ πολύ, Γιάννη! Here is an example of my reading in Lucian Pronunciation; does it sound more acceptable to you? www.patreon.com/posts/42731636

[@yianniskatsos7012]

@@polyMATHY_Luke Yes, from the words I can understand. If it wasn’t for words like ‘άγγελος’, ‘κατάσκοπος’ and ‘επιστολή’, I probably wouldn’t have been to tell this was Greek! But I don’t have a problem with it sounding different; it’s interesting to see how the language has been evolving over 2,500 years and it just would be impossible for the pronunciation not to have changed.

[@kashakroger1692]

4:21 Do you hear that pregnant silence? That's is Finnish quietly sulking about being forgotten. ;) Finnish has a nearly 1:1 correlation between spelling and pronunciation, each letter corresponding to one sound. It's glorious! (and fortunate, considering the 15ish noun cases we get to deal with)

[@zaladatv]

I enjoyed the passion with which you tackle the subject. There are a number of points you make that could be discussed further about or given perspective, especially regarding the relationship between the Greek world and the west. Regardless, thank you for the great videos and the effort you put in your research.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Thanks! Yes, I was a bit glib on a few points.

[@ellinanir4154]

Well done is not enough, congratulations on your excellent work. Keep feeding us knowledge. Thank you.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Thanks for the comment!

[@vasilioshatciliamis2067]

The rhythm in the Homeric poems is also broken if you do not reintroduce the letter digamma (w-sound) into the poems. Greek lost the letter early but that broke the hexameter in many places in Iliad and Odyssey.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

That's right! Isn't it interesting that the digamma isn't preserved in many texts?

[@henrydicarlo8472]

@@polyMATHY_Luke It should be reintroduceḍ in to the textṣ

[@FAQIvan91]

Wait... Hmmmm... W as it is pronounced in English or...?

[@henrydicarlo8472]

When I was an undergrad I did see a copy of The Iliad with the diagamma in place.

[@iuiu8831]

Interesting . None says that HOMER wrote in ALBANIAN LANGUAGE THAT his work starts with albanian word MENIA that's even Albanians today can understand easy. Greeks just pretend it is old greek and don't say it is ALBANIAN because greek didn't exist but was created after a technical language was formed and given to scholars, the so called modern Greek

[@iberius9937]

A video on the historical pronunciations of αι and οι would be most welcome!!

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Great suggestion, my friend!

[@naqviddinkhwaja2142]

I really like your explanation on this particular matter and I believe that that you correct in regards to the archaic pronouncitation of 'ei' in ancient greek because you see it matches with the 'ai' sound in sanskrit for example in ancient greek 'kheīmos' (snow) is equivalent to the sanskrit word 'haima-' (snowy) and if I am correct it matches the Latin word 'hiems' (winter).

[@joeknowsmusic81]

Great video! I'm trying to learn Ancient Greek and look forward to your other videos, particularly the one on eta! More Greek stuff please! :)

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

More Greek stuff on the way!

[@iberius9937]

Excellent video, brother. One of your best.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Very kind, sir!

[@dimitrapl.9615]

I enjoyed every moment of this video! Χαιρετώ απ'την Ελλάδα!

[@Cyclonus2377]

Wow... What a busy history the Greek language has had! Never thought there could even be such a backstory surrounding one diphthong! Really great vid, Luke! Thank you for sharing 😎😎

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Thanks so much! haha, this has been my research for the past two years, so just wait till we get to the other letters in Greek in future episodes!

[@lillycastitatis6807]

Fascinating. Please keep doing what you do Luke and make education accessible to everyone. Your content is so good, I doubt that one can learn this information at such a depth in a Greek Philology degree.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Very kind!

[@GreenNastyRabbit]

Luke, I subscribed to all your channels, your personality reminds me a lot of the teachers I had when I was a kid. Specially when you speak latin. My teachers used to chat with us on free time introducing us to latin explaining the origins of words and terms in chemistry or history and mythology. 🥰

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

That’s awesome! Thanks so much for subscribing!

[@PedroMachadoPT]

Why did the Ionian alphabet use two characters, ει, for a single vowel? Maybe that digraph is a relic from when that sequence of letters represented a diphthong?

[@Cachoeira1986]

Facts are facts and I'm not to proud to adopt them. Cicero is for sure a big evidence for greek spelling. Please continue doing your extraordinary job, my friend.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Thanks very much!

[@jerometurner8759]

I have to watch this multiple times to catch everything.

[@slsove]

I just found this channel and I really like this video, will definitely check out others. I currently teach Ancient Greek and we use the Erasmian pronunciation because it's close to how in our mother tongue words are pronounced as they are written, but as I've been taught in university and try to pass to my students as well it's indeed just one of many conventions and it's also interesting to explore this part of ancient languages. Thank you for this interesting video, indeed!

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Thanks!

[@GreekOrthodox7]

Then you are not teaching Greek. Erasmian is NOT Greek, it is an insult. Don’t use it.

[@MyronidesVideo]

Γειά σου Λούκιε Θεόφιλε! Your videos are very interesting. Keep up the good work!

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Γεια σου, Θεόλογέ μου! Ευχαριστώ!

[@michaelschiller7871]

Glad to hear your views have softened on this matter. I fully support trying to be historical to whatever period you wish, but I think the "your use of the language is wrong and offends me" mentality is harmful. And I agree that textbooks should be clear about their chosen pronunciation. If they choose to use Erasmian that is fine, but the history of it should be explained.

[@mingshey]

Thanks for all the clarifications. I had been reading ει as just eh-ee simply not to be confused about the spelling.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

It’s natural! Thanks for watching 😊

[@zeldaoot23]

Nice video! I’ve never made any concerted effort to study Greek but I always assumed epsilon-iota was pronounced as a diphthong of the two letters, at least in Ancient Greek. This video taught me a lot 👍

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

I’m glad you enjoyed it! Yes, the diphthong pronunciation is often taught but it’s a serious mistake in many textbooks

[@ezzovonachalm9815]

Why would ancient Greeks use the letters η - οι -ει .. if they had to be pronouced as /ι/ ? We consider the generalised IOTISATION as an IDIOTISATION of the once melodious greek language. ( pronounce längwidj).

[@ΕλένηΡοντήρη]

Είστε πραγματικά πολυμαθής και δίκαια ονομάσατε το κανάλι σας "πολυμάθεια". Τα συγχαρητήριά μου κύριε! Μιας όμως και ασχοληθήκατε με το "ει" θα ήθελα να προσθέσω ότι στα νέα ελληνικά έχουμε και το εϊ στο οποίο προφέρουμε ξεχωριστά τα δύο φωνήεντα.

[@CedricAyres]

Thank you for the video, Luke. I was thinking about this point recently because I have seen people pronounce it either as ei or as i. As for myself, I have always felt more comfortable pronouncing as 'ei', specially since the beginning it seemed easier for me to associate the word's spelling to the sound. Initially I felt a bit overwhelmed with the amount of phonetical peculiarities in Greek and trying to pronounce things as written felt that helped me memorize it better. I guess that nowadays I feel more comfortable in making the switch after watching your interesting arguments.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Great! I'm glad. Thanks for the comment!

[@panagiotislygouriotis7684]

Ευχαριστώ που ανεβάσατε αυτό το βίντεο επειδή ΛΑΤΡΕΥΩ τα ΑΡΧΑΙΑ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΑ!! Translation Thank you for uploading this video because I ADORE ANCIENT GREEK!! GREETINGS FROM ATHENS!

[@talkcommonsense]

Brilliant Luke! Thank you...

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Thanks so much for watching!

[@liviaplauta]

As an Italian who studied ancient Greek at school and then recently moved to Greece I have to say that once one has learned the modern Greek pronunciation there's no going back. For me using the modern Greek pronunciation as a convention for ancient Greek would make sense for everyone, because this way you basically learn two languages for the price of one and you would be able to communicate in modern Greece.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Ciao Livia. Infatti, ci sono convenzioni di vari tipi, e utilizzare la pronuncia del greco moderno, anche detto reuchliniano, è giusto dal punto di vista convenzionale. Il motivo per esplorare le pronunce antiche, è che con loro impariamo molto molto più profondamente i fatti importantissimi della lingua, della letteratura, della poesia. La pronuncia del greco moderno non è in grado a dare questa conoscenza, tanto quanto una traduzione di Euripide o Menonando in italiano ci da solo le informazione, ma non la vera lingua. kzbin.info/www/bejne/bWHHY5WfmqeemNU

[@htb_g]

It's impressive how some erasmian features sometimes sneak into reconstructed attic. Despite trying my best with reconstructed attic, I had no idea that I was not supposed to be saying ει as a true diphthong ._. Anyways, great info and video, as usual!

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Thanks so much for the comment! I'm glad you found this informative. Yes, it's interesting how "correct" pronunciation systems are taught, like in that book I cited at the end.

[@ahavatar425]

Very interesting! Hearing you speak about these features is a beautiful time travel experience... Ευχαριστώ

[@manorueda]

I could watch this the whole day 👍

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Thanks so much! 😃

[@ΣταμάτηςΒούρος-ψ2τ]

Your videos are gold!!! A treasure for the lovers of classical studies. Just subscribed!!! God Bless you!!!

[@seeyouchump]

He is a linguist,a geologist, astronomer and pilot. He is dr. almighty! But seriously how did your interests changed so dramatically within one and a half decade (I assume you're in your mid 30ties)? Did you actually study linguistics in a university?

[@Michail_Chatziasemidis]

Is that what they used to call a homo universalis?

[@davidkasquare]

It’s called a Renaissance Person. 😊

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Yup! I'm 36. Haha yeah I've always been interested in all these things. I'm lucky to have been able to explore them as I have! And no, I'm self-taught with most of my language experience.

[@nonmetuam1813]

@@polyMATHY_Luke you would know if the earth is flat given your credentials, right? ;)

[@talitek]

I've never studied Classics deeply, but my germanicist self is incredibly jealous of your actual contemporary literature and visible sound changes. Norwegian doesn't have that until maybe the 12th century, then it dies down again in the 16th century with the complete dominance of written Danish... Imagine having an actual continuous written literature stretching back to ~5th century BC! Nevertheless, fantastic video that I really enjoyed. Thank you Luke!

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Thanks for watching!

[@LancetFencing]

As a Greek I found this video extremely respectful and informative. Many times Modern Greek and Greeks are disrespected out of simple belligerent pride shaming. Pride shaming is a thing and modern Greeks are subject to this all the time.

[@tovarischkrasnyjeshi]

There's debate in Egyptian and Coptic studies about the qualities or lengths of the vowels. Coptic borrowed the Greek alphabet for a number of reasons, and the development of Coptic spelling and writing practices actually predates Christianity, going back to the Ptolemaic period. But it displays sequences like oo, aa, hh, ee, eei, etc. It seems though that ei and ou were consistently /j/ and /w/ respectively though. might have been /ej/ or /ii/, depending on interpretation. The controversy in Coptic is whether sequences like oo reflect long vowels or some placement of a glottal stop, given that they usually correspond to a lost consonant in the hieroglyphic spellings. On top of that there's controversies over whether epsilon and heta spelled qualitatively different vowels (e.g. /e/ and /E/ in X Sampa) or if the difference were quantitative, which is affected by what one thinks of the glottal stop interpretation. (Omicron and Omega are also in the argument). The qualitative argument also isn't sure which set - epsilon and omicron and eta and omega - was higher. On top of that, it seems different dialects of Coptic did different things, and there's motivated reasons to think the /o?/ and /o:/ reconstructions existed synchronously in different regions. being ambiguously /ej/ or /ii/ and being ambiguously /ow/ or /uu/ just complicate things a bit further. But they also tended to spell Greek like Greek, which might be a point against the long vowel interpretation of sequences. Among many other things. This video helped me appreciate some aspects of this argument better given how more motivated by *Greek* they are.Thanks.

[@nathanbinns6345]

Honestly the most interesting thing about this video for me is to hear that Cicero talked about Alexandria so much. Did he ever visit Egypt?

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Great question! You can find all the references to Alexandria here: Occurrences of “Alexandrēa” in Roman Latin literature: latin.packhum.org/search?q=alexandrea Occurrences of “Alexandrīa” in Roman Latin literature: latin.packhum.org/search?q=alexandria And by Cicero: latin.packhum.org/search?q=%5Bcic%5D+alexandrea latin.packhum.org/search?q=%5Bcic%5D+alexandria

[@robertocarrera4549]

Hmmm, I think you convinced me. Was not expecting that. Thank you. I enjoyed every minute.

[@LaureanoLuna]

I had always thought that etymologcal "ei", as in "eimi" meaning "I go", was pronounced a diphthong in classical Attic while those "ei" coming from contractions or from an epsilon turned long through the loss of a neighboring sound, as in "eimi" meaning "I am", expressed a long closed "e". It seems the difference was lost much earlier than I thought. Thank you very much.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Thanks for the comment! Yes rather early

[@udyandas]

Actually, think the Language, Culture , Originality and Pride of the poor Greeks and the people of Other Balkan Areas were deliberately but, partially destroyed by the Romans - Italians. So that, no rebellion may take place against the Romans.

[@gvsat3]

Great work 👍 thank you from Greece🇬🇷

[@AraboNormand]

Again excellent erudition and delivery. Thank you. Reacting to 4:25 (& seeing some Serbian-Finnish enthusiasts in the comments) i’d like linguists, or at least philologists, to do away with that notion of phonetic writing at some point. It's an alphabetic mirage (it is, in general, centered on the alphabet anyway.. or Greek, or Cyrillic), and ‘phonetic spelling’ is not some badge of honour (neither is French’s overly complicated orthography). Phonetic precision is not what writing is about generally.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Thanks for the comment! I concur with you

[@Adhjie]

Orthographic depth has been all the meme fad in linguistics even to the famous Kant imperative in every dept. Doors branch- the door one is from leddit

[@billbardakos2753]

First things first, the video was amazing. Also, I would like to add a couple of things. 1. The proposal of spelling ει as a single vowel is also practical, because it doesn't take away the ability to understand modern or Koine (used in chanting prayers) Greek. 2. I assume the reason behind Greeks believing that the pronunciation didn't change at all, comes from the fact that we start learning Ancient Greek at the age of 13 and continue until we graduate school. The course primarily focuses on translation, grammar and syntactical analysis and the curriculum completely ignores the history of the language (which leads to pronunciation, dialects, shifts, grammatical changes etc).

[@Alaedious]

Very interesting and clearly presented! 😎👍🤜🤛

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Thanks so much!

[@ShapingFaces]

Fascinating and excellently done. This said from a Greek

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Ευχαριστώ

[@chrysanthemo96]

As a Greek, born and raised in Athens, I wish I'd known such details about the evolution of the ancient Greek language and its pronunciation when I was studying for a short time ancient Greek in a German University and my professor told me I was reading with the wrong pronunciation, because I was pronouncing ancient Greek like modern (that's the only way I've learnt in Greek school). Thanks for the enlightening video! A new Greek subscriber ❤

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Ευχαριστω!

[@billy-the-butcher]

To be honest, if, me, a Greek, were to be told by a German that I don't pronounce ancient greek correctly, I'd just feel pissed, either if he was right or not :p

[@chrysanthemo96]

@@billy-the-butcher μα κι εγώ εκνευρίστηκα και ξενέρωσα τόσο που παράτησα τις σπουδές μια ώρα αρχύτερα, ήταν για μένα μια προσωρινή λύση ούτως ή άλλως, αλλά και παλι. Υπήρχαν καθηγητές πολύ καλοί, οι οποίοι χαίρονται κάθε φορά που διάβασα με νέα ελληνική προφορά, αλλά αυτή η μια με την παρατήρησή της μου την έσπασε άσχημα 😂

[@adnsd6051]

@@chrysanthemo96 Δυστυχώς, Τα περισσότερα πανεπιστήμια στο εξωτερικό ακολουθούν την Ερασμιακή προφορά, ως τη "σωστή" προφορά των αρχαίων ελληνικών αγνοώντας επιδεικτικά την κανονική Ελληνική προφορά που προέρχεται από την κοινή Ελληνική δηλαδή τη γλώσσα των Ευαγγελίων. Προφανώς, δεν έχουν ιδέα τι διδάσκουν θα πω εγώ αφού Ελληνικά (τα νέα Ελληνικά εννοώ) δεν ξέρουν. Η Ερασμιακή προφορά είναι σαφώς ένα κατασκεύασμα που βασίζεται σε κάποιες λογικές υποθέσεις με κύρια αυτή των διφθόγγων (ότι εφόσον τα ει, αι , οι προφέρονται όλα σαν ι, μάλλον αρχικά προφέρονταν όπως γράφονταν δηλαδή ει οχι ι αλλα εεειιι και πάει λέγοντας) που ωστόσο δεν μπορούν να αποδειχθούν. Ακριβώς, επειδή η συγκεκριμένη προφορά δημιουργήθηκε από ανθρώπους που δεν ήταν Έλληνες αλλά ξένοι, σε εμάς ακούγεται πραγματικά γελοία ... Σαν να ακούς έναν Γερμανό να προσπαθεί να πει Ελληνικές λέξεις χωρίς όμως την απαιτούμενη φυσική ροή αλλά και τη βασική γνώση της προφοράς των Ελληνικών γραμμάτων. Δεν υπάρχει αμφιβολία ότι η προφορά των αρχαίων Ελληνικών ήταν διαφορετική σε σχέση με την προφορά που έχουμε εμείς σήμερα αλλά προφανώς κανείς δεν μπορεί να πει με βεβαιότητα πόσο έχει αλλάξει και σε ποια σημεία ακριβώς. Ωστόσο, θα στοιχημάτιζα ότι η σύγχρονη Ελληνική προφορά είναι μίλια πιο κοντά στα Αρχαία σε σχέση με τη λεγόμενη Ερασμιακή προφορά. Τέλος, εάν κάποιος θέλει να φανταστεί πως μιλούσαν οι Αρχαίοι καλύτερα να ερευνήσει πρώτα τις Ελληνικές διαλέκτους όπως την Ποντιακή, την Κριτική, τα τσακώνικα και τα Κυπριακά. Εκεί θα βρει αρκετές φωνητικές διαφορές σε σχέση με τα νέα Ελληνικά που έχουν την καταγωγή τους κατευθείαν από τα αρχαία.