Green Mace - AA Design & Development

[@airbornecigar537]

The Green Mace prototype was for many years on display at the IWM site at Duxford, but unfortunately was reclaimed by the Artillery Museum at the Woolwich Rotunda a few years before that closed. Hence the project that the Gunners apparently handed over to the RAF is out of sight in a reserve collection at least until the Gunners get a new museum.

[@TheWanderingObserverr]

I saw this exact green mace last week, the RA museum is currently awaiting funding to build a new building, all of the equipment and vehicles are locked away in a couple of warehouses. I walked in and the first thing I saw was this huge cannon that looked like a transformer. The RA museum have kept it in great condition and hopefully it will be back on display soon.

[@scroggins100]

Love your work. You would have loved to meet my Dad. Joined Chilwell as an apprentice in 1930, Workshop Foreman in 1940, worked on every A series in the war and then on to Germany in the 40s and 60s, MoD, Chobham, Woolwich by then Technical Officer and so on. Centurion, Chieftain and a his views on some of them was "interesting". The muddle of the war years. He ended as head of Scales Branch in the 70s. He was told off by one General for doing wading experiments in Chieftain at 60 years of age. He did it because no one else could be found who would do it. A bit of a vandal was Dad and a very good advert for meritocracy. He rose from nothing and even at 80 plus to watch him work on a car engine was something. His favo tank was the scorpion. Claim to fame. He was nearly arrested for being drunk in charge of a DUKW on the river seven, along with some senior REME officers. I love to watch your videos, simply because I get to see what he worked on thanks.

[@stevenhoman2253]

What a beaut story. He sounds great, and he has a terrific son to be proud of.

[@paulreip8073]

Excellent work, well done. Just FYI, I joined the Guns Department at RARDE in ‘82. Stories about Green Mace still circulated as a couple of the guys were old enough to have been in the design branch at the end of the design, and there were always annoyed comments about how Bloodhound had finished it off. But I also distinctly remember being told that Green Mace was the small version of something they were thinking about that would use the same basic reload concept but be much bigger calibre. Knowing the guys involved, wouldn’t be at all surprised as a last ditch “let’s beat missiles at any cost” option.

[@williamzk9083]

Guns are likely to make a come back because of guided rounds. The Italians (Otto Malera) have been using a guided 76.2mm shell called DART since 15 years. It's beam riding. The Germans and Italians together built Vulcano 155mm GPS APDS with a 70km range and a Naval 5 inch version with a range of 80km. The Italians even ported it to their 76.2mm gun so now can hit a target 40km away with a 76.2mm gun. The proximity fuse can be replaced by a laser seeker or an infrared seeker (for naval targets). The US has a guided 57mm shell called MAD FIRES with its own seeker. So a 100mm gun might be quite effective, especially if a duel feed weapon able to choose between guided and conventional air burst (to deal with drones)

[@gotanon9659]

Highly unlikely

[@tisFrancesfault]

Being anywhere close to a battery of these firing would have been insane, and quite daunting to attack from the ground (assuming they got it to work reliably).

[@simongee8928]

The late Ian V Hogg, weapons expert extrordiaire, described Green Mace as 'the last of the dinosaurs'.

[@bigblue6917]

I did come across Green Mace some years ago but the book only had a couple of photographs and a drawing with little information. So as so often I finally get to learn more. The 5.25 inch turreted twin gun was used on HMS Vanguard which was launched in 1946. Some sixteen in total. They also tried the rockets on warships but they did not last very long there either. I think the feeling was that it was bad enough that the enemy was trying to sink you without it being self inflicted.

[@Wick9876]

The Vanguard's 5.25" battery was a direct repeat of the battery used on the King George V class battleships, whose lead ship launched on 21 Feb 39.

[@ssanneru]

@@Wick9876 Late reply here... The 5.25" turret was also used as main armament in the Dido class light cruisers. In a naval context the rocket launchers were known as "Unrotated projectile" or UP launchers, and never did harm so much as a fly as far as I know. Utterly useless for any purpose, a waste of space, tonnage and manpower. It beggars belief, but the Japanese actually stole the idea and installed similar things on their ships towards the end of the war.

[@Hemimike426]

Thank you for shedding light on this, was always curious about these guns but never found much with my limited research skills as a kid, kinda forgot about them until now!

[@alankohn6709]

It seems everything old is new again with AA gun systems making a bit of a return to deal with drones although a 5 inch shell may be a bit of an over kill for drones.

[@abzzeus]

The bursting and fragments might stand more chance of hitting a small target? Like a snot gun with birdshot vs a rifle

[@pluemas]

Interestingly, the bigger flak might actually be more useful for swarms of drones. Large blasts don't have to be as precise and fragments would fairly easily take out a drone. Whereas, systems like starstreak show that smaller finned projectiles are good for larger air assets. How the turn tables.

[@alankohn6709]

@@pluemas True and the Bofors's new 40mm anti air system does use bursting proximity rounds but 5 inch is a hell of a big round and may just be too one use but a smaller 3 inch might be a nice middle ground smaller lighter but still plenty of bang for your buck plus you're probably not trying to loft a shell halfway to the moon like the 5 inch was intended

[@simongee8928]

The V1 was the interceptor fighter pilots ideal target, one that flew straight and level at a constant speed.

[@obsidianjane4413]

Except for its unpleasant tendency to explode when hit.

[@williamzk9083]

The big problem for the V1 was that with Europe in allied hands the flight paths were highly restricted and the allies could concentrate their defenses. The other problems was that when launched the missile had a speed of 420mph at sea level (thios was beyond even the Tempest with 150 octane fuel) this deteriorated to about 360-370 in most due to the valves deteriorating. Nevertheless there were version with speed of as high as 515mph expected and reliable engines as wells as a turbojet version with double the range and a guidance system called Ewald-II. Willy Messerschmitt and Rober Lusser designed the Me 109. Lusser moved to Fieseler and designed the Fi 103. Messerschmitt loved his ex designers creations and wrote dozens of pages analyzing and proving how a production rate of 100,000 was possible.

[@JlMB0]

Imagine these used as artillery with stand HE shells, that would be devastating

[@russellnixon9981]

I saw this porotype at Woolrich Museum but didn't know what I was looking at the time and now I know, thanks for that.

[@michaeldenesyk3195]

Brilliant video. Until now, I knew absolutely nothing about the efforts to equip the British Army with a gun system beyond the Bofors L70.

[@CthulhuInc]

nice one, ed! the first i heard of green mace was in ian hogg's book, back in the 70's, the guns 1939-1945

[@neiloflongbeck5705]

That was a subtle mention of the Bethnal Green Tube Station disaster, unless you were meaning the 1957 Defense White paper by Dunczn Sandy's who had been in command IIRC of Z Battery. 173 people including 62 children were killed at Bethnal Green when the local Z Battery fired off their rockets. The nousevof the battery firing caused a panic in those entering the tube station, with a sadly all too predictable result.

[@WildBillCox13]

Speaking of large caliber AA prototypes . . . The 1944/45 era 15cm gerat 56(?) was a German 150mm bore AA cannon with a two chambered autoloader. It was part of a late war project given to a few armaments manufacturers (G55,56, etc), resulting in some prodigal prototypes, but no series production. FlaK towers were armed with single or dual 12.8cm sFlaK40, plus a ring of small bore (2cm/3.7cm) autocannon.

[@startingbark0356]

the thing they call the flak 15cm right ?, also appears in the game WoT on the Waffentrager E-100 which is a fake tank btw

[@williamzk9083]

The 12.8cm FLAK 39 and 40 were the most powerful AAA guns to see service in WW2 by anyone (everything else was experimental). The Germans did have a Proximity Fuse in development but they suspended work in 1940 to concentrate resources on the Battle of France and didn't get it restarted till 1942/43. By then its was too late to fire anything but experimental rounds but it would have been deadly. It used a cold cathode valve and electrostatic detection. It's code name was kuhglochen (little cow bell). Completely unjamable. Britain actually also succeeded in test firing proximity fuses in 1942. In the British fuse the shell was tracked using a corner reflector and when the echo from the shell and target merged a coded double pulse detonated the shell. By then the US fuse was nearing mass production. -Guns like the 150mm were banned by the Germans due to the excessive resources required. The Standard 8,8cm FLAK 37 had a muzzle velocity of 800 meters second and was not very effective above 20,000ft (reasonable to 25,000ft but engagement time at 30,000ft was about 11 seconds). The replacement was the 8.8cm FLAK 41 with a muzzle velocity of 1000m/sec. It had all sorts of issues such as blockages caused by changing from brass to steal cartirdges, vibraion at the high firing rates demanded. It worked in small numbers and the problems were solved by the end of 1944 (too late)

[@kernalkraig]

I saw this at Duxford in 1983. Would be interested to see it again.

[@daviddb2528]

This is the first of your offerings I've sat down to watch. Liked it a lot. Especially the quality of most of the photographs. Hopefully someone somewhere has some fillum of the beast in action.

[@vandelayofficial492]

The Brits really were the best at coming up with cool names. Green Mace, X-4 Longhand, like perfect saturday cartoon stuff.

[@moencopihopi5332]

Red Indian and Red Savage...smh

[@jehoiakimelidoronila5450]

YES!!! About time you discuss this! There's even a proposal that, if it worked & had the problems ironed out (spoiler, it didn't), could be mounted on destroyers and cruisers. I'm not even shitting, but I took this from Wikipedia and here's what it says: "Some sources suggest that a naval version of Green Mace was planned as a new dual purpose gun for the Royal Navy's destroyers, and a twin version of the same gun intended for cruisers reached the design stage, but neither went any further, and they were cancelled outright in 1957"

[@randyhavard6084]

I bet the sight of these guns firing was incredible

[@glynluff2595]

Is this the amazing AA gun with rotary magazines at Duxford. I remember looking at this with both military engineering and production engineering and thinking as a system it was probably doomed to failure. Reason being the rotary magazines. The likelihood of mis syncopation with such masses trying to engage high rates of fire is large and one in twelve rounds failure sounds quite good. For the systems of monitoring and adjustment available at that time I suggest it was beyond the bar. I think a straight feed system would have been better as long as the feed line was kept short because of the round plus case weight. I would not expect an industrial machine to perform well in such a capacity with a a rotating motion and the technology of the day and have experience of maintaining pre war machines up to a few years ago.

[@mountainman0]

a video on longhand the 3.7" version would be great too!

[@MrOhdead]

Really interesting, I was about to comment how come the admiraly did not get more closely invold, then you covered it !. What sort of interests me is how the navy had the Mark 6 mountings for the 4.5, with a supposed AA role but no seeming cross over ?.

[@BlueMoonday19]

Where have you been all my KZbin life? Love it!

[@mycroft1905]

Excellent presentation. Fascinating subject. TFP

[@walkerig1]

Green Mace would make a great AT/tank gun

[@chrispig7748]

Another brilliant video, thanks

[@billballbuster7186]

Interesting video, I had not heard of the Green Mace before your talk. Keep up the good work!

[@jehoiakimelidoronila5450]

Also, imagine modernized versions firing 105mm rounds for ammunition compatibility (as used by m101 howitzers) as it'll be also used as long-range ground-pounding howitzers, but with drastically simplified loading system And the gun seems to be gas operated judging from the small-diameter tube running the length of the barrel

[@forcea1454]

I was under the assumption that the 3-inch N1 Gun predated Green Mace, given that this gun starts appearing on designs as early as 1947?

[@pablodegui]

Thank you for this fascinating channel , Interesting how things evolve and to see what made and didn't off the drawing board, Wonder if you have come across anything to do with the 1936 Armstrong Siddeley 6x4 armoured car developed for the RAF in the archives , Looks well ahead of its time for the era , the books i have that do mention it have very little info on it , might be something interesting to look up.

[@kevkfz5226]

Thanks Ed

[@michaelguerin56]

Good video. I knew that some British WW2 heavy cruisers had 5.25 inch anti-aircraft/dual purpose guns but this is something else again.

[@joewalker2152]

The 5.25in dual-purpose guns were originally designed for the Dido class Anti Aircraft Cruisers in about 1935 which are technically light Cruisers (6in and below = light Cruisers, 8in = heavy cruisers, as a rule of thumb in RN service) I believe by 1943, three RN turrets and guns were acquired by Anti-Aircraft Command and located in various positions around London, the one in the picture, I think, is the one located at Primrose Hill.

[@michaelguerin56]

@@joewalker2152 Cheers.

[@joewalker2152]

@@michaelguerin56 You're more than welcome, sir. I hope you don't think I was trying to correct you. I'm just spreading some information from many, many years as an amateur military historian.

[@michaelguerin56]

@@joewalker2152 Somewhat outside my specialties. I knew that they were used on British WW2 cruisers and decided that if I specified the type of cruiser, someone would react and pin it down accurately. The common perception has always been that RN WW2 dual purpose guns topped out at 4.5”. I tend to have more fun pointing out nonsense about military rifle/ammunition history that has been perpetuated by idle (typically U.S.) gunwriters for over a century. Same for firearm safety instruction, live firing range management and correct nomenclature for firearm and other weapon parts. Keep having fun with your interests and have a good weekend.

[@joewalker2152]

@@michaelguerin56 Have a great weekend too, sir.

[@bassplayersayer]

Very interesting. Good job.

[@stuartburton1167]

27.5 tons stretches the definition of mobile

[@davidyendoll5903]

I like your channel , maybe you could inform us about particular 'artillery' batteries histories ? One I can think of is the battery system protecting Bristol in WW2 which is now open to the public and is sited above the M32 near the telecoms tower . I think locals referred to it as Big Bertha' , but there were multiple guns there and I think the site evolved . Even the locals , my father in law being one , were kept in the dark about the place of course . Then you might consider the ammunition production side ... Dinham , or Caerwent factory , has gone out of use , so could probably be off the secret list for example . What about the warning systems , like Rotor , too ? Why do we love big noisy things , lol . ATVB

[@terik3312]

Actually, I do believe the battery was more locally known as Purdown Percy from the booms I've read on it

[@GARDENER42]

I'm honestly surprised to see an example still exists, as much better known stuff has long gone to the scrapyard.

[@DivineDawn]

Big Green Shooty Machine lol love it! Although I don’t think you want bits falling offYour shooty machine. But what do I know :) great vid.

[@ivanjelec8029]

Im curious what if they use this thing as tank turret or as artillery, i believe they could probably decrease its weight with new and modern materials since it was designed in 1956

[@tedarcher9120]

VT fuzes are not variable time, but instead non-comtact radar fuzes

[@janwitts2688]

If fully developped would have been useful vs later soviet bomber regiment cruise missile salvoes against key ports..

[@wor53lg50]

Ive got a photo of me and my sister sitting on the wheel of that when i was 8 years old when it was kept outside at Duxford, im now 45...

[@gleggett3817]

40-80 rounds per minute. Not brrrt but that's a lot of shells in an aircraft's vicinity

[@HanoiHustler]

Good lord!

[@impguardwarhamer]

god that is incredibly cool looking

[@danielallen839]

Dam imagine green mace as a spaa for td would be deadly

[@ptonpc]

Not quite a belt fed WOMBat but I wouldn't fancy being on the wrong end of that!

[@simonallen6427]

More Please!

[@nooblangpoo]

Could've been developed into a modern Naval Gun system like the OTO Melara Super Rapid

[@stevenhoman2253]

What I always think about with AA, and is never mentioned, is what happens with the fragments which fall from the sky? Not just the shrapnel, but also aircraft parts? If they were firing rods, my god, what a mess, more of a terror for your own population.

[@LN37275]

Yes. Correct. The shrapnel falls down. It's rarely mentioned, but it's something people had to deal with. Usually you would be under some sort of cover anyways during an air attack, so it was rarely an issue. not like dumb fire anti air rockets landing back to earth. The shrapnel is just metal, any roof will probably stop it.

[@solreaver83]

So if I understand none of these were ever self propelled (including fired from a mobile platform)?

[@armouredarchives8867]

the wheeled one could move, but it was slow, more to help position in or move it short distances, its not mobile in the pure sense

[@solreaver83]

@@armouredarchives8867 awesome, thanks

[@websitesthatneedanem]

1:16 = Any more info on the AA Rocket batteries? - not heard of these before! ⁉⁉⁉⁉

[@armouredarchives8867]

OH there is loads, i need to get a vid done at some point. but google 'Z BATTERY WW2 rockets' for a quick glance

[@olegadodasguerras3795]

Amazing video

[@ianbell5611]

Thanks great video.

[@CarlTheTacticalHoser]

Looks like something WH40K would roll out 😅😅😅

[@spiderwolf7525]

Does anyone have some info on the German round mentioned at 05:13 ? The only info I have is from a spreadsheet where a 15cm gun mentions a muzzle velocity that seemed out of place for WW2

[@FairladyS130]

Interesting stuff. Given the confirmation of artillery as a most important battlefield requirement in the Ukraine conflict it would not be surprising if some of this research was revived again. Higher fire rates would be one characteristic being looked at I guess but barrel durability seems to be a problem there. Perhaps a liquid cooled barrel would help there.

[@LN37275]

If you want extremely high burst rate of fire, just use rocket artillery

[@kungfuwitcher7621]

Interesting topic, I hadn’t actually heard of this weapon. One thing though, does the author of this video think that only chaps watch this channel lol. A tad behind the times there.

[@KTo288]

Need to find an embarassed emoji. I edited the first draft of the Wikipedia article on this system. But, I don't go into archives and the best I could find on line for the different calibres was that the smaller was a proof of concept prototype for the larger. Would you mind me doing a link here from the article?

[@armouredarchives8867]

sure :) feel free

[@KTo288]

@@armouredarchives8867 thanks.

[@MrCantStopTheRobot]

They look rather like a science fiction fancy of their time, don't they?

[@jasonscarborough94]

And in 2240, the Terran Alliance will reverse engineer the Green Mace project to arm Drop ships and eventually Battlemechs

[@mitchverr9330]

Gaijin.... Please... (we now have articulated vehicles in the game, its possible!)

[@warhawk4494]

Cool beans Could have made a interesting Anti Tank gun with the kinks work out. Lol

[@mattbowden4996]

No mate, I saw it when it was on display at Woolwich arsenal - it's absolutely massive. Monster Anti-tank guns like the Pak 44 were too big to be effective and Green Mace was three times bigger and heavier...

[@warhawk4494]

@@mattbowden4996 damn. I guess the pictures didn't convey the true size of the gun and mount on my phone.

[@davidorf3921]

@@mattbowden4996 well I suppose it could have been used as an improvised AT gun if any tank had been foolish enough to show itself to the gunner though I suspect the sighting system would have been mk 1 eyeball combined with spray and pray given that it was meant as a radar controlled system

[@pluemas]

Wasn't much point, anti tank missiles were already showing themselves to be a more efficient method. Smaller, typically more accurate, lighter and cheaper.

[@chriskortan1530]

@@pluemas I believe that's incorrect. While missiles showed great promise at the time, they were not ready. They were exceedingly expensive, not necessarily accurate and definitely not reliable. A gun system was proven.

[@todorviktorov6714]

a story about some guys trying to replicate german 15cm Flugabwehrkanone 50 and failing.

[@FinsburyPhil]

So many bonkers programmes in the 50s and 60s. There's stuff on Green Mace in the book 'Battle Flight - RAF Air Defence Projects and Weapons Since 1945' by Chris Gibson. Vulcan armed with Phoenix anyone...not radical enough, how about rearming a Tornado F.3 in flight in the 70s. All makes Contentious look very conservative.

[@theonlymann1485]

they seem to have drank lotta beer before designing what is essentially real life version of the WT auf E-100's gun system designed for AA purposes only. lmao imagine that thing firing dead accruate on a spot with 76mm sized HE shells devastating whatever it was struck with. yikes

[@TheDieselbutterfly]

I will take 27 units. If I can pay on time.

[@timsweet3224]

you sure that wasnt on the banana splits ?

[@marcusvalerius7663]

ukraine need guns like that around there citys and power plants.

[@harmdallmeyer6449]

Why?

[@marcusvalerius7663]

@@harmdallmeyer6449 To shoot down the drones..

[@alan-sk7ky]

It's a bit German, if you see what I mean 😉

[@conradnelson5283]

Where are they also didn’t work very well, but that was somebody else’s problem😂😂😂

[@iangreenhalgh9280]

Heavy AA guns were next to useless - it is estimated that during the Blitz, 35,000 heavy rounds were fired to bring down a single aircraft. The most effective British AA weapon of WW2? The humble and ancient Lewis gun....

[@armouredarchives8867]

yup bout right, tho the number of AA rounds in storage was far in excess of this, they counted for about 20% in total. not much but 20% is 20%

[@stuartburton1167]

The main point of heavy AA isn't too shoot down aircraft though it's a bonus but to force the bomber to fly higher and faster. This reduces range and accuracy, it's a lot easier to hit a factory from 10,000 feet than it is from 20,000 feet plus.

[@mitchverr9330]

Well yes and no, to add on top of the thing of AAA being for forcing planes to be less accurate, like most things it depends. Radar fuse rounds turned out to be really useful, the problem is that heavy AA was a dead end technology for the most part by the time those rounds came into heavy use and the SAM was the future for the most part. But you do still see "big" gun spaa designs, like the Otomatic (aka Otomagic to its fans) if you consider 76mm to be big gun I guess and navies still make good use of dual purpose guns.

[@iangreenhalgh9280]

@@stuartburton1167 Good point. Also, in the old classic World at War documentary series, on the Blitz episode, some Londoners who lived through the Blitz pointed out that the morale of the people was greatly boosted by the sound of the heavy AA guns firing - it gave them hope.

[@iangreenhalgh9280]

@@mitchverr9330 Yes, the advent of the VT fuse changed things a great deal. 3"/76mm is held to be the smallest calibre for which the VT fuse is suited to make an effective weapon.