Green Philosophy

Writer and philosopher Roger Scruton argues that conservatism is far better suited to tackle environmental problems than either liberalism or socialism.
Chaired by Matthew Taylor, chief executive, the RSA.
Listen to a podcast of the full event including the audience Q&A: www.thersa.org/events/audio-an...

[@AdversusHaereses]

I like Chesterton's analogy of the environment. Not as our mother, but as a sister. We should respect the environment, but not worship it.

[@chrisweidner2617]

I see Roger, I listen.

[@Lisarata]

Okay I've finally heard an idea that is both related to my own conservative thinking and reconciles between knowing I don't want to obey someone else's dictates as to what's best for us all, and the idea that sustaining our lives in a way that enriches the earth is something we need to do. I'll listen to this guy.

[@LifesColourful]

@Russlem I care to disagree, I am both a Classics and Philosophy student. As it is understood today, Socrates did exist, he was however used in fictional dialogue (namely Plato's Republic). But he was historically documented in non-fictional works of other Classic Philosophers. Confusion about his existence stems mainly due to the fact that he did not write any of his works down. If this was his preference or disability is unknown. However his existence is acknowledged in the fields i mentioned.

[@tomandkatherinewilliams7784]

Love Sir Scruton!

[@2leet2cheet]

@2leet2cheet While understanding morality from state to state may differ. I don't see how allowing states to decide for themselves is a bad thing. If anything, by allowing the states to make many of these decisions you remove a level of government and gain a better perspective of what the people of given state actually want. If you don't like it, you have the option of moving to a state that agrees with your set of moral standards.

[@2leet2cheet]

@Russlem I quote a fictional character? Please enlighten me.

[@matsa2620]

This is truly insightful.

[@2leet2cheet]

@Russlem "I'm wiser then he is to this small extent, that I do not think that I know what I do not know."

[@2leet2cheet]

@Russlem Please enlighten us, what legislation has he passed to destroy our civil liberties?

[@2leet2cheet]

@omegavalerius I'm talking from within the United STATES, not world wide. Please read.

[@Russlem]

@LifesColourful His existence is debated in the fields you've mentioned. That's where I first learned of this debate. You most likely have a convicted professor who has swayed your opinion, but the historicity of Socrates is at least as questionable as Tacitus' "Annals" passage regarding Jesus. Some professors are more convinced than others, and it comes across in their argumentation. The general consensus is that his historicity is irrelevant because Socratic logic works.

[@TickleMeElmo55]

If not local then who? The government? If so, the last time I checked the government is dreadfully horrible at feeding the billions. In fact, even the US government never fed billions.

[@ppwalk05]

highly efficiently large scale power plants (e.g. we could have one 50% efficiency power plant that provides power to 1 million people, or 1000 small plants of 30% efficiency that provide power locally to same million people). There are countless examples like this, we have large scale economies because local economies are often inefficient. Yes there are plenty of issues with our globalized economy, but turning back to local economies is not a solution, it's a path to poverty.

[@AdversusHaereses]

That presupposes that there truly is not such thing as a divine providence, but thats another issue.

[@2leet2cheet]

@Russlem Nice theory. While there is evidence Plato wrote in Socrates name, there is no evidence saying Socrates did not exist. Plato is not the only person to speak of Socrates. Regardless, once again you have successfully mentioned another fun fact to divert from the main argument.

[@ppwalk05]

local economies, but they must be analyzed rationally using evidence. The environmental damage that would be caused by shift to local economies with the current population of the earth would be tremendous, not to mention the loss of wealth. Think how much more land would have to be converted to farmland because now people would have to utilize sub optimal crops and lands for food production. How much more energy would have to be used because now we must have local energy production instead of

[@2leet2cheet]

@2leet2cheet I'm sure you could get a work permit in North Korea, maybe you can see how some of the alternatives to democracy are working.

[@2leet2cheet]

@2leet2cheet Having a singular power making decisions on issues you may not agree on is far worse. It leaves you without options and may not represent the opinions, or morals of the people of your state. Remember, this is the year 2012 where mobility is no longer a problem. If a state begins to come at odds with your morality, you have the option of leaving. Freedom from government, imagine that.

[@Russlem]

@2leet2cheet A state is still a singular power. Your argument could simply be pushed to "you have the option of moving to other countries!". Some people don't like being forced to be uprooted to avoid the tyranny of the majority being visited upon their rights just because some cultural relativist argued "who's to say limiting gay rights is wrong?" Mobility is a problem. Mobility only isn't a problem for rich, spoiled people that don't know how much it costs to move.

[@Russlem]

@2leet2cheet "I don't see how allowing states to decide for themselves is a bad thing" Oh so you're saying Jim Crow wasn't bad? Because those were state and local. Sodomy laws are still on the books, the only thing preventing their enforcement is federal legislation and supreme court rulings.

[@2leet2cheet]

@2leet2cheet We obviously have a core philisophical difference in opinion. I believe people should have freedom. The freedom to vote for a local representative and have that representative deal with issues common to those represented people. I do NOT believe top down government works(How's North Korea doing?). I do not beleive one glove fits all(How's Obama care?).

[@Russlem]

@2leet2cheet All contemporary evidence for Socrates points to him being a fictional entity created by Plato to give Plato's ideas credibility.

[@Russlem]

@2leet2cheet Lol wow that's some fail. You quote a fictional character saying the same thing I've been saying to you, most likely ignorant to the fact that you're quoting a fictional character.

[@Russlem]

@2leet2cheet Nothing. If you read what I said, I said he wants to refuse federal legislation and leave it up to the states because he knows states will deny civil liberties. That way he can be politically for civil liberties while being legislatively against them. Its great political theater.

[@Russlem]

@2leet2cheet "there is no evidence saying Socrated did not exist" Out of curiosity what sort of evidence proves something does not exist? Something that isn't there? You stopped arguing so there's no diversion, you just started quoting fictional characters stating positions that agree with me for reasons beyond me. Oh and evidence he didn't exist: Plato's last words were "Socrates wasn't even in the picture". The burden of proof is on you though, not me.

[@Russlem]

@2leet2cheet I don't "believe" I'm smarter than you. I know I'm smarter than you. You've demonstrated that by relying on high minded rhetoric instead of evidence and have accused me of straw-manning you when I bring up evidence to what your position ACTUALLY entails. So not only do I clearly know more about history, I'm better equipped to support my position and know how to debate properly whereas you don't.

[@NoEcologyNoEconomy]

What any given person wants, and what's best for the entire world, tend to be on collision courses. The typical attitude of "I got mine, let the rest rot" doesn't cut it on a finite planet with 7 billion people, and growing. That's exactly why there are so many environmental problems to begin with! Everyone's looking out for number one, but few have an eye on the big picture. And you accuse those few of merely wanting to "control" you, missing the whole point. See: "The Tragedy of The Commons"

[@Lisarata]

What you've just done here is appointed yourself overseer, knowing what I want and what I don't pay attention to. Are you sure?

[@ThAt-ZeTeTiC]

There may be a point here... The Liberal approach, means bigger govt, more bureaucrats exploiting a system that is ineffective. Obama does not equal a greener eco-friendly planet. Ron Paul 2012.

[@2leet2cheet]

@Russlem Please, lets try not to draw ridiculous conclusions this early into the argument. Trying to attack my character by saying outlandish nonsense is childish. I'm somehow pro-slavery?Rich snob? Against Education? Give me a break.

[@2leet2cheet]

@Russlem "He's a great politician, he can act like he supports civil liberties while passing legislation that destroys them." Actually, I'm pretty sure I read what you said very clearly. I understand where you are coming from, but that is the beauty of his methodology. He supports civil liberties while understanding that "one glove does not fit all". The morals of one state may be drastically different from the morals of another.

[@Russlem]

@2leet2cheet "the fact that states can better represent their people" Just because you say things are facts doesn't make it so. "Stop bringing your morality into this arguement" No, I don't think I will stop bringing my morality into this argument just because some pro-slave, anti-rights libertarian doesn't mind if his tyrannical majority steals the rights of minorities like is -currently- happening.

[@ThAt-ZeTeTiC]

@harrisric128 No one said he is the only one. But if you want the country to move from borderline fascist to a sovereign republic there is a hugely immediate opportunity that has blessed us and we should not just let the opportunity of liberty pass by. Yes there are other libertarians, sure Napolitano, Rand paul, Lee Rockwell, Demint. Amash the list goes on but Paul is running w a huge support group NOW. Or you can vote Santorum, But I will vote for freedom now that know the truth, so should u

[@SkLLzDaTkLLs]

rabble rabble rabble, rabble

[@Russlem]

@lUnArEcLipsZe1788 Ron Paul doesn't support civil liberties. Ron Paul supports pushing civil liberties down to the state level because he know states will not allow civil liberties at large. He's a great politician, he can act like he supports civil liberties while passing legislation that destroys them.

[@buzzhawk]

It's not something I was raised with, it's something which anyone with a realistic attitude would notice. You can rant on about controlling greed, the magic government which should save the world and all that, but the paradox is that an idealistic stance like that has contributed to some of the greatest disasters, both ecological and concerning mankind. Behind your vague rhetoric there's a disgust for humanity.

[@sebastianmelmoth685]

How does Roger, no matter how smartly he dresses, always mange to look scruffy?

[@2leet2cheet]

@2leet2cheet The problem here is, you beleive a singular power can make better choices then the combined voting power of hundreds, thousands or millions. You're absolutely right, people can make unrational decsions as you have rightly shown. However, I would rather live in my ideal world, where I can voice my opinion and vote on it. Rather then your world, where you have no say and the government tells you when to eat and shit.

[@2leet2cheet]

@Russlem @Russlem Again, please keep your incorrectly perceived notions relating to my character and opinions to yourself. They are far from realistic and sidetrack the main argument. "Democracy doesn't work" Famous last words of those who were killed by the dictator they thought smarter than themselves. I won't go any further into arguing against your arogance. You can continue believing you are more educated and intellegent than everyone else.

[@omegavalerius]

@2leet2cheet Thats only true to a minority of people living on our planet. Most are pretty much stuck where they are without means to transport themselves let alone their family to a distant location. I can buy a ticket and fly anywhere. I'll get a permit to stay because I'm a citizen of a wealthy country with a degree and money in my pocket.

[@Russlem]

@lUnArEcLipsZe1788 "The establishment wrote your poli-sci books that is what you must understand" Tin foil hat anyone? So where do you educate yourself? An underground bunker?

[@Lisarata]

People who think they know what's best for everyone will create something gray to live in. You talk about greedy Republicans... what is greed if you are a greedy person on welfare? I'm talking about making environmentalism a part of one's own personal interests. Meanwhile, rude and egocentric people who think they know everything will only alienate others and start fights. What about an emotional ecology first?

[@harrisric128]

@lUnArEcLipsZe1788 Borderline fascist!? Please look up the definition of fascism and explain how you jumped to that conclusion. Is our Govn. fat and inifitiant? Yes. Does the corruption need to be stopped? Yes. but the fact that you can even suggest this country is borderline fascist disproves your point. And on that note I hope one day you will understand that it is not the President that has the power it is congress and that is where the big changes need to happen Vote Wise

[@ThAt-ZeTeTiC]

@harrisric128 my friend, My vote is for Ron Paul I hope yours is too bc I may exaggerate w the term fascism, it is not so far off as we can sit comfortably w/out mention. Mussolini said fascism was the merger of corporation and state. We have corporate welfare in from of bailouts. We have war w/out congress' approval and starting 2mr the Ndaa goes into effect. I wish it were not true but our country has lost its sovereignty at the hands of our zionist imperial leaders. Cut 1 trillion, end wars

[@kaisertreu6276]

Actually the Mussolini quote is fake, it was brought up by American left-wingers during the Bush era to use as propaganda against him.

[@Russlem]

@2leet2cheet Our philosophical difference is simple: mine is based in reality tempered by a lifetime of education and academic study based on real history, yours is based in a fantasy land where you think majorities respect the freedoms of minorities because a crazy old man tells you so. You compare a representative democracy to a theocratic dictatorship and think this is a serious conversation still? You bring up Obamacare which protects the rights of "free market" health companies?

[@2leet2cheet]

@2leet2cheet "pro-slavery because you're arguing that states are better equipped to make decisions" My arguement is based in the fact that states can better represent their people. Stop bringing your morality into this arguement, no one cares about your fears. If the states democraticly decides to relive slavery, than it truely will be a sad day. I have more faith in the collective decision makes power of a democractic system.

[@2leet2cheet]

@Russlem You need humility when you saying things like; "half of voters are ignorant, functionally retarded." I have acknowledged your points; "slavery is bad","minorities need help", "women need rights". Obviously, those are admirable and agreeable things. However, when you say things like "democracy doesn't work" it just tells me you have some very selective knowledge. This is about democracy being the single best option in our society.

[@harrisric128]

@lUnArEcLipsZe1788 You are missing the point once again. I like what Dr. Paul has to say I just don't like him as a candidate. The one thing that most Paul supporters like yourself have in common is the idea that he is the only one. Broaden your vision just a little bit. The Stats are an illustration of his inability to get anything done. Ron Paul is a bucket with a hole in the bottom. It may be pretty but it is still useless, put it in the garage and go get a new one.

[@harrisric128]

@lUnArEcLipsZe1788 He says all of the right things, but he is still a career politician that will change NOTHING if he is elected. If you really want to admire someone with libertarian values look at Jim Demint or even Rand Paul. At least those two might be able to get something done. Ron Paul has let the US become what it is today, He should've been trying to get things done in congress rather than running for President. Funny that I'm a troll but you resort to name calling..

[@thehuddler]

Matthew is spot-on when he questions whether Roger's rather romantic views on localised activism are consistent with his world views. I fear he has a rather limited understanding of the scale and diversity of the problems that environmental systems face globally (beyond High Wycombe that is).

[@Russlem]

@lUnArEcLipsZe1788 The fed controls our money supply. The fed doesn't determine what rights we have. A basic PolSci course could teach you these things, but I know Libertarians are anti-establishment and that includes the last 6000 years of academic review. States rights are the key to civil liberties? Tell that to Alabama in the 1960s. Your position is laughable, and a cursory examination of history will show you states are almost always behind the federal gov't in recognizing rights.

[@ppwalk05]

Government, corporations, and public institutions are the future. Solar panels, energy storage, advanced building materials, nuclear reactors, high yield crops, advanced medicince, ect, ect are all products of a globalized economy. Governments, corporations, and institutions are great providing various types of capital (equable distribution is a different issue). Local economies are often very inefficient from both an energy standpoint and human capital. This is not to say there is no value in

[@NoEcologyNoEconomy]

Poor analogy. Mothers make your existence possible, not sisters. Nature is not optional, like having a sister. If people are going to worship invisible, nonexistent gods, there's nothing radical about worshiping the only thing that actually keeps you ALIVE.

[@ppwalk05]

Oh yes Roger local economies, they will surely feed the billions, provide the materials necessary for civilization, and the energy for our quality of life. Roger is dinosaur unwilling to acknowledge that theory can no longer be the creation of a brilliant mind, that theory must be grounded in reality by evidence to solve our problems.

[@stueyapstuey4235]

1:11 - First lie - 'We in England have a better record than most in resisting this destruction of the human habitat...' Yeah - if you exclude enclosures, the Industrial Revolution, enforced land purchase of green-belt (ie. agricultural land) for the building of motorways... Beautiful - Scruton is a star! Trump should get him as press secretary, or UN ambassador. He's pretty cheap, too for speaking gigs, so I'm told...

[@AbeldeBetancourt]

13 minutes wasted and no Philosophical Approach whatsoever. I don't mind if he is not a scholar but, Philosopher? Where?

[@androstar555]

This man needs to work on his public speaking skills before he is to portray his opinions to a large crowd and expect them to be enticed by it.