Greg Souders on NOT drilling in BJJ, Corbe brothers, coaching (ecological approach)

[@bradanselment]

I didn't know Michael Rapaport was this passionate about jiu-jitsu 😂

[@johnnyvegas3979]

Ecological psychology is very useful in understanding how organisms read and interact with information in the environment. It happens faster than conscious thought. As a coach, I have immersed myself in discussions and literature, in order to apply the understandings to my own students in the form of CLA with features of differential learning. At the end of the day, it takes a pretty large amount of effort to begin learning this stuff but it is worth it. It truly fascinating stuff that applies beyond grappling.

[@jclarkecoach]

Some of you are commenting as if your sole goal is to feature in the follow up video 😂 Greg’s stuff is solid and if you doubt it go to his gym or have him come to yours and experience it. That’s what I did and now I’m fully invested 👍

[@MartialRoller-jd2hp]

constraints led approach is basically learning to be very playful and explore like scientists or little kids ❤ you are not mindlessly repeating a single movement over and over again. its like going to the gym and hitting a wide variety of moves rather than just the single bicep curl. if you mindlessly do just the bicep curl or any exercise then you will face injury and a rapidly diminished progress

[@michaelswann9849]

The more i hear from him the more i like him. I love ecological training.

[@ohno837]

Drilling is only good for demonstrating a version of it. Eco is for actually learning how it’s applied and understanding it

[@WolfCubMMA]

I like their way of teaching jiu jitsu. I think it’s great.

[@emilyhops2566]

I'm dyslexic and dyspraxic. Drills scare the life out of me. Having said that, for me, i'm in a way drilling about 5 moves with my coach, because we go over and over , hopefully till i get to the point where i can do it without spending 5hrs trying to remember what side my knee goes...

[@RageNg]

As a fellow dyslexic, I’m with you. It often takes us many more repetitions to learn specifics, yet we often “get the gist” very early on.

[@mulkosilma]

This underlines perfectly what is wrong with traditional method of teaching spesific moves. I think that good cla practice would benefit you tremendously.

[@rolandfisher]

He's loud, cocky, and awesome. Greg brings it.

[@qwasqwasqwasqwas1]

I had 2 buddies I grew up wrestling with say Greg is the best in the area. Don’t understand why people are so upset when he is so heavily invested in his students.

[@ryankauanui]

“All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.”

[@duenasramon]

Greg is genuine! He has an open invitation for anyone to come by his gym! Eco/CLA Standard vs The World.

[@simeonmartin3514]

After watching the original video I used this method to have my 7 and 9 year old children practice armbar/armbar escapes. And the next class my 7 year old was able to escape an armbar from a boy who is almost twice his weight. He didn’t know how to escape armbars before that. He has had about twelve classes.

[@KodiakCombat]

Hey! Glad you're sharing your story around. Let people know you were able to utilize this without being a BJJ practitioner. Games can be created by any observant coach.

[@sergiodefreitas6597]

Im part of sbg international. Under matt thornton never met greg saùnders ...but i think his onto something good...been doing jits for 26 years .

[@froggy3496]

wiazowski1 comment about transforming jiu jitsu into commercial rubbish is hilarious. What is more commercial than having students drill armbar triangle omoplata to make them feel good about themselves

[@shrimuyopa8117]

Your last video was amazing. I have been trying to use it a little more, still teaching drilling. Just adding something a little different for sparring.

[@lhh6627]

You're only getting a single digit % of the possible benefits

[@joshbeambjj]

Thanks for watching! Glad you enjoyed it

[@mattmax8599]

Super curious what Greg's opinion is about the relationship between frequency, specificty and skill acquisition. It is my opinion that frequency is most important and specificity is second volume third. Curious what others think.

[@gregsouders9648]

I agree with this order but only as an assumption

[@KodiakCombat]

Frequency and volume overlap but yes, more exposures over time are better. With sleep in between.

[@rolandfisher]

learning science has us understanding that it is volume at the highest, but with breaks... which is frequency. So, is it frequency or volume? Yes. And specificity is, to me, not in the discussion since it is the point anyway. Like your frequency and volume of effort has specificity built into it.

[@rolandfisher]

@@KodiakCombat exactly, volume with breaks is frequency

[@carlos_carvalho_5ejiujitsu1983]

The amount of ignorance in those comments that were presented is amazing. If they could only, at least, study a bit... Keep the good work, Greg. And you too, Josh.

[@RageNg]

Making Ad hominem attacks on everyone who comments… interesting choice. The point I made in my previous comment was valid. It’s obvious from the content of my comment, that I’m educated on the subject of CLA. Additionally, my personal fight career and Coaching careers are rather substantial. I personally believe there is a great deal to be learned from CLA & the Ecological approach to skill acquisition. Just don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. Final note: first name Rage, last name Ng

[@gregsouders9648]

There really was only one choice. I mean how serious are we if we aren’t net-banging in the comment section? Your question was a gripe against “semantics”. Then you go on and give us your opinion on what things “should” be called. Can you not see the irony? And I didn’t attack your character. I attacked your comment. But I did attack the mentally capacity of most of the dumb-dumbs in the comment section. You got me there.

[@KodiakCombat]

Don't pull a muscle trying to pat yourself on the back.

[@brannybrapz]

I honestly like this spicy version of Greg

[@MrBeenReadyy]

we love a spicy boy

[@AyrionOfficial]

@@MrBeenReadyy Spice boi

[@kungfupanda431]

I've incorporated some CLA concepts into classes and it does create an interesting learning experience (people are generally more talkative and more engaged as they experiment with how to navigate through a scenario, plus they're spending a lot of time actually moving around and trying stuff). One major downside is that it does require a fair bit more work to fine tune the scenarios to get the reactions you're looking for vs just showing a technique, having people drill it out, then starting people in the position for the technique. I think a lot of the push back for Greg comes from the same place as John Danaher and his championing of a systems approach. If you want to be the guy heralding and promoting something, in people's minds you're gonna be inexorably linked to the approach. Also the clickbait youtube titles don't exactly help, lol.

[@kylep.4503]

Based off what you said it sounds like you are trying to design the games around causing specific movement patterns (techniques) to emerge. I think the goal is to design games around what function their movements are supposed to serve in achieving an outcome in different situations.

[@lhh6627]

You shouldn't aiming for people to do things specific ways, you're aiming for them to accomplish goals, whether they do that by turning themselves inside out, purple, or to the left.

[@KodiakCombat]

The downside is the coach actually has to coach!?

[@TomMack6466]

How do I learn this system of teaching, does it apply to striking as well ?

[@joshbeambjj]

I made a video about game design with Greg here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/iquUYqSVnb9ngLcsi=M715QIVeF3mRwciz I’d also recommend reading Constraints-Led Approach by Ian Renshaw, and then Rob Gray’s two books (How We Learn to Move, and Learning to Optimize Movement). Kyvann Gonzalez (@Kyvannbjj on Instagram) runs striking classes as well at Bodega Jiu Jitsu in New Jersey with CLA.

[@TomMack6466]

@@joshbeambjj thanks I'll check it out

[@combatlearning]

Greg's argument about the permanence and transfer of drilling flew over everyone's head. Not because it's wrong, but because everyone does not know--or care to know--how anything works. It should murder that argument...but it won't, because jiu jitsu people think no different than karate people.

[@MartialRoller-jd2hp]

that is whats sad

[@blackbeardtx371]

If you listen to Greg, then listen to Dr Gray, his approach and method makes perfect sense, it strips bjj down to its essentials and is very freeing to the training in a way.

[@dannyray180]

i want to just train and roll drills make me feel 😴 all the time

[@joshbeambjj]

Same...

[@FBAMaroon]

People won't believe him until he produces a dude from scratch on the ecological approach Keep up the good work Greg I am learning a lot 🎉 My students due like it can't lie

[@GrapplingAutist]

Even then it'll be "oh that person was gonna make it anyway".

[@FBAMaroon]

@@GrapplingAutist naw he's got some killer guys coming up 🔥🔥

[@KodiakCombat]

A dude? So that talented girl he has done that with isn't worth noting?

[@lisanelson5559]

Hey Josh! Are you still in Rockville? I’m on my way there now from Bali, Indonesia - super excited to try out this approach to learning BJJ.

[@joshbeambjj]

I'm 2 weeks late to replying, but no I was only there for a few days. Hope you enjoyed the training!

[@richardpanini971]

6:25 Hey thats me! #OSS

[@joshbeambjj]

Ayyy haha thanks for commenting/watching

[@Bjjbgk]

He’s mad. Danaher goated

[@gregsouders9648]

I’m mad that you breath with your mouth open

[@darmiliosalado3641]

Souders frequently praises Danaher, so I’m not sure your comment is valid.

[@Bjjbgk]

@@darmiliosalado3641 it’s fully valid. He’s objectively mad the entire video. And Danaher is in fact goated. Don’t see the issue with the comment

[@darmiliosalado3641]

@@Bjjbgk not arguing Danaher is the best or one of the best of all time - I think that’s indisputable at this point. I’m saying that Souders likely ins’t angry about Danaher, but instead just an angry guy :-), but even that assessment is probably inaccurate. I’ve been following the guy for just over a year and during that time I went from he’s a loon using all manner of odd language to describe how people learn to instead appreciate what he is attempting to communicate. After digging into a few studies and books a bit to debunk him. i.e. I studied the underlying science of motor learning and over time, unintentionally became convinced he was correct, but maybe not the most friendly advocate for the concepts he promotes. The slide slowly began after reading a book from Rob Gray and continued from that point to today. But for sure Souders does often comes across as angry and many might view that as defensive, but I suspect he probably doesn’t care much about the challenges to his approach - at least that’s the impression I’ve developed after some time watching him. Anyway, he agrees Danaher is the best and seems to be friendly with the GOAT.

[@AaronXu70]

I‘m just tired of all these new invented words, I don't see anything new from so called ecological approach. Kano already did this centuries ago, it's called randori in judo. Static drilling including breakdown drill, speed drill, fluid drill, moving drill, positional drill, combination drill, light sparring, hard sparring. All those different training methods have their own aims. The only thing matters is that you know what are you doing and why are you ding this.

[@darmiliosalado3641]

They’re not invented, at least not recently. James J. Gibson published on the topic in the first half of the 20th century. It’s not just positional sparring, but it shares the benefits of positional sparring. Lately, I’ve been thinking the most intuitive way to position it is to say it’s less constrained than drilling against a resisting opponent, but more constrained than positional sparring. That’s not a perfect description, but for most people, it’ll get you in the ballpark. In a bit more detail, the idea is that anything learned out of context has to be relearned in context - and drilling against a non-resisting opponent isn’t in context, so you’ll have yo re-learn everything once you come up against resistance. Or maybe this instead: you will always learn faster by doing an activity than you will by just approximating that activity - I think that’s how Souders positions it. The vocabulary can seem confusing and may not be necessary for most people, but if you’re deep into studying this stuff (and I believe Greg is very deep into the study) of this topic or any topic really, you need to use the vocabulary specific to the science - at least when discussing with other egg heads / nerds. If you want a quick read on the subject and to learn how it differs from Randori or other methods, I’d recommend you pick up a book titled: How We Learn to Move: A Revolution in the Way We Coach & Practice Sports Skills. It’s an easy read, enjoyable and very well written by a PhD at ASU who studies this stuff a lot. Or check out the combat learning podcast, it’s not specific to grappling, but he does grapple and he’s also getting credentialed in the science.

[@AaronXu70]

@@darmiliosalado3641 Definitely will check the book, thanks for the recommendation. Maybe the reason I’m against with not drilling is because my judo background. In judo, uchi komi (static non-resistant drill) plays very important role in the learning process. Beginners use it to get familiar with move patterns and uke’s weight shift. Advanced players use it to develop speed and power. I do believe the training should be similar to the real situation but sometimes it would be way too complicated for the beginners. The main point is all those training methods are just tools, understanding why we do these is more important than just copying other people’s training patterns.

[@jonhand2197]

​@@AaronXu70check out Cal Jones. He is a judoka from the UK who uses this approach. He has a fantastic 50 min lesson filmed on KZbin. I loved it.

[@darmiliosalado3641]

@@AaronXu70 Hey Aaron, while I’m not a traditional Judo guy, motor learning seems to be the same for all physical endeavors - so it’s probably how you’re learning today, even with drills. What I mean by that is your learning occurs via the process described by Ecological Dynamics. Really, Eco is just a description of the underlying science and psychology of motor learning. The “coaching” method Souders is using is probably more accurately referred to as a “constraints led approach” (CLA). It’s not that a kind of repetition isn’t occurring with CLA, it’s that you aren’t practicing “the perfect technique” 1,000 times - instead, you are spending time exploring movement within certain constraints with the goal of pinning someone, breaking something, compressing something. The argument the EcoNerds make is that static drilling seems to be a far less efficient way to develop skill, which is why many CLA proponents believe the success experienced by traditionally trained grapplers is really attributable to their live training (they roll A LOT) rather than the time those athletes spent “static-drilling”. Most CLA advocates believe the same skill level could have been reached in much less time if those athletes would’ve swapped all their static drilling for a Constraints Led Approach to skill acquisition. It seems to make a lot of sense because a constraints led approach allows you to explore (Greg would probably say this is where things “EMERGE”) and that exploration allows you to learn much faster than trying to execute “the perfect technique” against a non-resisting opponent. In your case, it sounds like you’re describing the way a certain alignment between your body and your opponents body gets you where you want to go, which is really not against the idea of a constraints led approach. I just found this video of Souders showing (not the move, but the) idea I think you described - he’s basically starting in the armlock: m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/pGPOl4GafZuipZY And while searching for a good example, I also see this new video which is a full on clinic Souders ran very recently: m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/d3XIqpyNqcSeqdk&pp=ygUsRWNvbG9naWNhbCBkeW5hbWljcyBmb3Igc3VibWlzc2lvbiBncmFwcGxpbmc%3D He’s way less abrasive in those two videos and explains a ton about the science without being as science jargon filled as many of his other videos.

[@AaronXu70]

@@darmiliosalado3641 Thanks man, will check the source you mentioned, seems I’m kind biased based on my own experiences

[@mygi43543]

What he's teaching is nothing new it already exists in any sport, it's not the be all and end all. In one of your earlier videos a Judoka said he seen a lot of guys with the "new thing" but they dont last.

[@lhh6627]

LMAO

[@darmiliosalado3641]

So you agree with Souders; right? Pick up How we learn to move from Rob Gray. It’s a well written book on the underlying science of motor learning - you’ll see that what Souders is doing hasn’t been used in submission grappling and only recently has it been used in other sports.

[@mygi43543]

@@darmiliosalado3641 To a degree but I dont think a solely eco approach works and I am weary of people who are doing the latest "breakthrough" but with a new name. . Alas it has been grappling since the first olympics centuries ago.

[@darmiliosalado3641]

@@mygi43543 that’s the thing about Ecological Dynamics, it’s the underlying description of motor learning, not the method used to teach - Unfortunately, everyone calls it Eco, but what it should probably be called is a or the Constraints Led Approach. That means whether you train against a non-resisting opponent or your training is only live rolling, you’re learning whatever it is you learn, because of the underlying science of Ecological Dynamics. If you view traditional training as a continuum as opposed to discreet segments - a Constraints Led approach fit’s between “dead-drilling” and “all out rolling” it’s a bit more constrained than situational sparring, but as you advance, more and more constraints are removed until you reach situational sparring and finally the all out roll with very few constraints. So it’s not that Ecological Dynamics is something new - it has been here as long as people have been here - it’s that our understanding of motor learning is getting better, and that understanding is what everyone is calling the Ecological approach. It was first described by James J Gibson in the first half of the 20th century, so it has been around for a long time, but only recently has it become more popular. But if you look at guys like Kit Dale, who’ve been doing it for many years, but didn’t know how to describe what was going on under the hood, they just know they’re winning in competition and doing it at a high level much faster than anyone else. If I had to encapsulate the argument from EcoNerds, down to a more digestible description, I think they’d agree (mostly anyway) that “if you learn against a non-resisting opponent, you’ll have to re-learn when you hit resistance, so you’d be better off cutting out the non-resistance portions of training and re-allocate that time to something much closer to rolling”. I suspect the reason it is blowing up very recently and seems like a novel way to train (even though it’s been around for a very long time) is because: 1) Souders uses the scientific jargon to describe everything and that jargon sounds entirely foreign to 99.999% of the public 2) Souders can, at times (but only when he’s awake :-)) come across as a bit abrasive. Both points above are like big red capes to a bull which draws a very combative response to what he is saying. In defense of number one above, he’s been on a journey for I think the past decade studying this stuff, so when he is not training, he is reading the literature and the trials etc. this will inevitably lead him or really anyone who does the same, to communicate using the terms as they are defined in the literature. In defense of number two above, If the science is correct, and he is able to build a bunch of Gordon-like competitors, Souders may someday look like Danaher, so I’m holding my fire :-)

[@cannonstrength]

The cardiovascular workout analogy is full of holes. Cardio reapiratory adaptations will occur with proper training. These are physiological adaptations. Not skill acuasition.

[@KodiakCombat]

Ok. So the skills used to develop the cardio then. Do them then don't do them until ten years later. Gonna be effective?

[@cannonstrength]

@KodiakCombat be more articulate, please.

[@KodiakCombat]

@@cannonstrength sounds like a you issue.

[@BillyJohnsonize]

Why is Greg so insecure?

[@gregsouders9648]

It’s because your mom held me too much. Without her warm embrace it’s difficult to know who I am.

[@BillyJohnsonize]

@@gregsouders9648 Oh snap!

[@BillyJohnsonize]

@@gregsouders9648 Oh snap!

[@BladeofLight1996]

Greg comes across as very defensive here. The obvious answer is that drills, ecological, and situational training all have their place in jiujitsu just like they do in skill-based sports (take football / soccer / boxing even as an example that incorporates all of these). Saying one is better than another misses the point - you have to use different tools for different things you're trying to improve

[@gregsouders9648]

“The obvious answer”!? You literally have no idea what you’re talking about. But I love the confidence.

[@BladeofLight1996]

@@gregsouders9648 case in point

[@logman5357]

How do two things based on opposite levels of evidence for their functionality have a place? Why make someone a beef sandwich but insist on smearing shit inside it so people get ‘both sides’ 🤔

[@gregsouders9648]

@@BladeofLight1996 me commenting on and taking issue with your ignorance is an example of defensive behavior?

[@BladeofLight1996]

Yes. Here's where I felt you were defensive, and also where I agreed with you: Q1 - I agreed with you here.
 Q2 - I felt that your response here came across as defensive because you didn't address the core premise of the OP. The OP is basically saying that "they'll believe it when they see it”: the premise being that traditional / existing pedagogical methods in jiujitsu are superior to the ecological approach because they've produced blackbelt world champions from scratch, whereas the ecological approach has not. The problem is that instead of addressing the premise, you started rambling about Danaher not having brought up a white-to-black belt world champion, world class athletes having multiple coaches. This wasn't really the point, and hence you came across as defensive. Q3 to Q5 - I agreed with you here. Q6 - The OP’s premise was similar to the one in Q2. “Are you saying that effects of drilling are permanent?” isn’t what the original comment was saying at all - it felt like you were deflecting and you failed to address the premise head-on. Your additional counterexample “If I had you do a cardiovascular program for 6 weeks, have you not do it for 10 years, then come try it again” was false equivalence. Q7 to Q9 - I agreed with you here.

 I sincerely hope this helps you understand where detractors of the ecological approach are coming from, and where you can improve your responses to get your message across more accurately.

[@rickfinsta2951]

Your discomfort in this video is palpable. My unsolicited advice is to stick with the real high level coaches with whom you've been training and stay away form blowhards and cult leaders.

[@gregsouders9648]

He’s already wearing the Nikes

[@joshbeambjj]

I'm bought in on eco tbh that's the only way I train now after learning so much about it