England's Catholic Reformation

England’s Catholic Reformation is the reformation that sixteenth-century England nearly had: a reformed and renewed English Catholic Church, its new schools and revived parishes matched with a firm smack of discipline.
It almost happened; its leading prophets - Cardinals Thomas Wolsey and Reginald Pole - both came close to being elected pope.
Instead, as these possibilities evaporated, they left behind them a toxic residue which has poisoned England’s relations with its neighbours down to the present.
A lecture by Alec Ryrie
The transcript and downloadable versions of the lecture are available from the Gresham College website:
www.gresham.ac.uk/lectures-and...
Gresham College has been giving free public lectures since 1597. This tradition continues today with all of our five or so public lectures a week being made available for free download from our website. There are currently over 2,000 lectures free to access or download from the website.
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[@Qrtuop]

I'm binge-watching all of his lectures. He is fantastic. Thank you for sharing

[@Johnnycdrums]

When the Professor speaks of Augustine , he is talking about Augustine Of Canterbury , just to be clear.

[@threglanzaldor7763]

Professor Ryrie is a brilliant speaker who makes a fascinating subject even more intriguing. Thank you!

[@silva29]

Thank you for making this freely available.

[@rkgrant]

Thanks to Gresham for making these interesting lectures available. I learned so much from Mr. Ryrie about my protestant heritage. Randall Grant- Montreal, Canada.

[@guramile]

As an American historian of Tudor and Stuart England, I am still...at 73 years old...learning; thank you, Professor Ryrie, for these brilliant insights into a complicated slice of British history. And I'm glad we agree on ANNE OF THE THOUSAND DAYS!

[@emmcee662]

Absolutely riveting - such a brilliant engaging man - I love these lectures

[@johncharleson8733]

In an historical sense only, this was a very well presented lecture--including both the following Q&A and the erudition of the responses--top shelf stuff.

[@EyeLean5280]

One of the best lecturers I've ever seen. 🤩

[@fritula6200]

Mick Cain.....in reply. St Jerome translated the Old Testament Bible from Hebrew Tanakh into Latin. Roman Empire spoke Latin. Once translated it was called the VULGATE. His translated Bible appeared 383AD. He was commissioned by Pope Damasus to do the translation.

[@SuperIliad]

In fact, the common man in the Roman Empire spoke more Greek than Latin, which was its official language. St. Jerome translated the Vulgate from Greek to Latin.

[@SandyRiverBlue]

I think that the only reason that the Vatican intervened so much in British politics is because of the distance (both by sea and over land). If they were a bit closer, they would have had every reason to expect an attack the likes of what they had when the Holy Roman Emperor Frederick Barbarossa marched from Germany to Italy and "forced" the Pope to crown him, or when Napoleon Bonaparte marched on Italy, made the Pope crown him and eventually, seeing the machinations of the 'holy see' placed the Pope under arrest, extraditing him to France to be imprisoned.

[@v.g.r.l.4072]

What a brilliant conference. My total admiration for the speaker.

[@mercelloveras7453]

Very interesting conference. I'm looking forward the next one. Thank you very much.

[@suzannetevlin8439]

Very interesting. This is a subject that fascinates me. Thank you.

[@DwRockett]

Wow, fascinating to consider how powerful English Catholicism actually was. Puts some new light on the old question of “was William Shakespeare a secret catholic?” for one thing

[@genevieveis2838]

Everyone was Catholic ...who chose to be ... However fake greedy men...will be fake greedy men...and, it's the vulnerable that pay the price.

[@mark621000]

@@genevieveis2838 the sin curse is on you Romans 5 . The roman c church cant save a dog

[@chrisfitzmaurice7484]

@mark Says who?

[@leehallam9365]

I'm not sure that it does, this lecture refers to events before Shakespeare's birth in the sixth year of Elizabeth's reign. In one of his other lectures on here Prof Ryrie notes how little religion featured in his plays, that might have been him covering for secret beliefs, or secret atheism, or I think more likely a desire not to be involved in any controversy.

[@laineymckenzie660]

English catholism..was powerful?noooo

[@TheModernHermeticist]

Great lecture, loved Alec's book Being Protestant.

[@KempSimon]

Time for another lecture .... this time on the Anglican Counter-Reformation (1603-49) which did so much to shape the Church of England that its adherents know and love today? Whilst wishing that they could ditch the 1662 Book of Common Prayer in favour of the 1549 version?

[@adrianthomas1473]

Well said - I love the 1549. I use the 1903 De La More Press edition of 1903 as edited by Vernon Staley.

[@voyello]

Thank you Sir !

[@arnavjd]

Brilliant! Love the depth he brings to a period I would've otherwise viewed in archetypical terms

[@dianesicgala4310]

Great Video.

[@marclynch314]

Outstanding

[@herminengasse6]

Fascinating!

[@kenmoretoast]

I like these series, but it's hard to find the videos and the order months after the fact. Maybe consider links in the description to the rest of the vids?

[@girlgirl4548]

Click on "playlists".

[@jmccallion2394]

Dr. Ryrie makes a convincing argument that history, especially ecclesial history, is not boring!!!

[@philipdurling1964]

The actions of Henry VIII were possibly the most traumatic since 1066, and would not be settled until William & Mary.

[@rhythmandblues_alibi]

Coming back to hear the first in the series after listening to five out of order 😅😭 Pleeeease put the number in the video title 🙏

[@GreshamCollege]

The series order for England's Reformations and their Legacies can be found at www.gresham.ac.uk/watch-now/series/englands-reformations

[@ianbeddowes5362]

The Anglican Church has never been able to decide whether it is a breakaway Catholic Church or a Protestant Church.

[@PInk77W1]

It’s way worse than that

[@sklenars]

I think it was a case of they realising later down the line that they had dropped a clanger during the so called "reformation" or some would say destruction. So the term "we merely washed our face" in the reformation emerged, although some would say they actually severed their head and later keeping a foot in each camp (A little bit Catholic and a little bit protestant) while identifying as protestant.

[@PInk77W1]

@@sklenars they ain’t a little bit Catholic. That’s like being a little bit pregnant. 1896 Leo Xlll said Anglican orders are Null and Void.

[@sklenars]

@@PInk77W1 Absolutely. As for their clerical garb......To dress up as a cowboy, doesn't make you a cowboy. I read a newspaper report on the demise of the CofE recently which ended with the comment....would the last one to leave please turn out the lights.

[@PInk77W1]

@@sklenars it was illegal to be Catholic in UK from 1535-1835. Now more Catholics go to Sunday mass than C of E

[@funDAYsmiling]

That’s cool that they recycled the headstones! In my own family, nobody’s visiting our dead’s graves and resulting headstones (I was surprised at how expensive those damn things are). Life goes on for the living.

[@maudegonne3740]

Brillinant!

[@AlbertSchram]

I hope Amazon's Jeff Bezos can follow Gresham's example, leaving a legacy by funding a free and accessible high-quality academic college or global university. It is sadly the only way to address the global learning crisis.

[@Johnnycdrums]

Love it; “They might be dead, but it doesn’t mean they have to dance to our tune”.

[@drrepair]

My absolute favorite historical analyzes of the "English reformation" comes from E. Micheal Jones. Now a much-suppressed voice of reason in the United States. To sum up his view: At the start, it was not a theological difference that compelled Henry the 8th to start the process. The English aristocracy followed up by the "biggest looting operation in English history" also no theology behind that, and subsequently, it went from bad to worse ever since when the "real protestants" took on the scene with bad theology. And that had consequences for the United States that still haunts them. Even our much-praised English scientists and philosophers are denuded of their splendor. He is an absolute MUST read in these troubled times. Logos Rising is his latest book. After reading E. Micheal Jones public intellectuals really must shape up to face his critique.

[@c.norbertneumann4986]

Same in Germany: The German dukes, barons and rich merchants in the cities wanted to become independent from the emperor and the pope. They didn't want to pay for the Catholic church any more, but instead cash the tithes themselves their subjects had paid to the church before. Like in England, monasteries and their estates were expropriated. For the aristocracy, reformation had no theological reasons.

[@del5582]

John Calvin set up the most accurate and systematic biblical theology. The Swiss "radicals" (who are termed as such despite that Luther believed in predestination and radical corruption too) had it right. Catholicism is a pretty but manmade religion; little wonder they do not encourage their flock to read the Bible.

[@2Uahoj]

@@del5582 The Catholic Church "produced" the Bible.

[@del5582]

@@2Uahoj The Patristics produced the Bible, and they had no "infallible pope" or purgatory or Mary participating in redemption and salvation. Read the Bible: there is hardly any word on Mary in the New Testament. This worship and deification of Mary was an invention of man.

[@2Uahoj]

@@del5582 Not really, the Bible was the product of a council of the Catholic Church, and includes passages on the pope as head of the Church, Mary, and purgatory. Read it more and you will understand that.

[@markrichter2053]

Strangely, to me at least, his account of the arrival of Christianity to these shores completely ignores the, so called, Celtic Saints, the pre-Augustinian missionaries, Columba, Aiden, Patric, etc., all those recorded by Bede.

[@mtpanchal]

All things apart, this guy got a really beautiful manly voice

[@funDAYsmiling]

Our current era will be thought of as the true renaissance, because of a combination of things not available to the masses in those times due to illiteracy.

[@hazzardalsohazzard2624]

I can see that happening. But I could also see it being seen as a time of great ignorance. It depends on if the future thinks we are doing the right thing or making serious mistakes.

[@angelicakyang3999]

Rupert spiro

[@vincentswift7]

Henry VIII hated Luther He simply wanted a brood mare and the Pope said no Marriage is for life which he knew very well

[@williamfrancis5367]

Except the Pope had little problem issuing dispensations for this kind of thing (Leo X had no issue doing it to let Henry VIII marry his brothers widow). The real issue was Catherine's nephew Charles was the most powerful man in Christendom. Not someone to annoy.

[@shunoinori]

@@williamfrancis5367 A person remarrying after the death of his/her spouse is perfectly lawful according to the Bible (although it does proclaim that not remarrying is the superior option). However, remarrying whilst your spouse is still alive is absolutely forbidden. Christ says that anyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery. So no, there is a theological reason behind not allowing Henry VIII to divorce.

[@nathanc5778]

@@shunoinori Not the point. Papal dispensations were common at the time.

[@mikecain6947]

Are you sure there were not translations of the bible into English before Henry the 8th? and into other languages ?

[@kevinlove4356]

Yes, there was. The most famous was St. Jerome's translation of the Bible into Latin. There were 14th century English translations associated with John Wycliffe.

[@mikecain6947]

@@kevinlove4356 Check the others, especially in German.

[@kevinlove4356]

@@mikecain6947 Yes, which is why I used the words "most famous." Other significant early translations of the Bible were into Slavic languages by missionaries from the Eastern Roman Empire.

[@mikecain6947]

@@kevinlove4356 Time and again people say Henry the 8th wanted a divorce and not an annulment. It is stated that Luther had the first translation of the bible into the vernacular.

[@kevinlove4356]

@@mikecain6947 Yes, people do say all kinds of things. To state that Luther had the first translation of the Bible into the vernacular is spectacularly ignorant, as the Latin translation by St. Jerome was widely used in Western Europe, including by Martin Luther himself. Luthor's was not even the first translation into German. That would be the German Bible printed by Johann Mentelin in 1466. Which was a really lousy translation.

[@theemptyatom]

Reformation or hostile take over?

[@saatee100]

Can anyone see a parallel with the current "green story "....

[@pixielowman2748]

still cant wrap my mind around how a religion made by man is so cherished and acient beleifs r frowned on

[@conlaiarla]

Its called heresy .

[@harpsichordkid]

This was the cry of the Protestants, who saw that the Roman Church had forgotten the ancient, Apostolic teachings of the church and had instead adopted corrupt doctrines & practices. To be truly Catholic, the Protestants understood one must start with being Apostolic. I encourage you to read the New Testament and the Ante-Nicene Fathers (those writings we have from the time of the Apostles up to AD 325) if you want the truly ancient Christian teachings. As the English Reformers wrote: “As the Church of Jerusalem, Alexandria, and Antioch, have erred, so also the Church of Rome hath erred, not only in their living and manner of Ceremonies, but also in matters of Faith.”

[@2Uahoj]

@@harpsichordkid Yes, but as we well know the reformers were equally in error about many aspects of the nature and teaching of the Church. So it was truly a case of "throwing the baby out with the bathwater".

[@conlaiarla]

Thank you for your input but I never take lessons in theology from heretics. If we did that would also render us in the same sad situation as you and your friends are in.

[@388Caroline]

AdventuresInADD It was as you know Henry the VIII who wanted the change because of the marriage. He still practiced Catholicism. It’s interesting about the the ancient writings. I’ll look into them.

[@johnholmes912]

elizabeth and her prayerbook was catholic

[@harpsichordkid]

You haven’t read the Elizabethan Injunctions have you?

[@SuperIliad]

In fact. King Henry VIII's prayer book was Catholic. Henry intended to leave intact all things Catholic except for the supremacy of Peter's see.

[@giovannaiamele8782]

Do yoy think the religion you have now is better than the Catolic religion? A religion your king invented so he could marry his mistress?

[@mattt.4395]

he clearly doesn't think that...

[@crustyoldfart]

There's very little emphasis here on how money was being circulated in all of this supposedly faith driven system. [ There is one reference to Swiss priests paying money to their bishop so that he would condone their marriages to women. ]. Surely a case can be made that that no fabric of organized religion could function without money. Money comes as a consequence of commercial activity. The churches were engines of commercial activity but also, at least as important, organizers of how the money circulated and in doing so promoted further commercial activity. The stability of the system depended on Rome establishing strict controls, and in doing so demanded and received monetary tributes from the system large. It is my belief that Henry VIII finally called a halt to the flow of money to Rome. He appropriated the accumulated wealth held by the organized church. Using this economic power the rest of the XVI century allowed England in particular to flourish and, starting with a population of an estimated 2 million, in 100 years became a dominating power in Europe. To achieve this end, there was a long period of stealing Spanish gold which itself had been stolen from the people of the New World.

[@zeddez1005]

Certain people took action. That's the story.

[@vincentswift7]

Too much guesswork and maybes and dismissal of the fact that the belief matters Yhe Catholic Church is the only church that possibly goes back to Christ and only one that claims it Every Priesr today has delegated ordination from Christ

[@vawor4471]

Actually, there's the Orthodox Church too; it goes back to Christ.

[@nomadpurple6154]

@@vawor4471 Plus the original African Christianity made official religion by Ethiopian King Ezana at the same time as the Romans. Descended from Mark's arrival in Egypt in 60AD

[@miamenseentokyo2396]

😭 such a sad story. May Catholic England be reborn

[@MrJm323]

Wasn't it reborn in the 19th century? (The Church re-established its dioceses and parishes, built new cathedrals; Catholics are free to worship openly and establish their own schools, etc.) Otherwise, what do you mean?

[@miamenseentokyo2396]

MrJm323 I mean something more along the lines of Fr Aidan Nichols O.P.’s “the realm”. Surely dioceses came were established etc, but I mean something different.

[@nathanc5778]

Papist.

[@Joe-sw9nk]

Catholics get freedom and still complain and whine.

[@ozzyjames87]

Catholicism is steadily fading into irrelevance along with religion in general.

[@388Caroline]

Sorry, Genevieve! Dorothy Tuttle was my favorite.

[@christopherseton-smith7404]

Tuttle or Tutin?

[@moraesneto9508]

The statement contains some historical misconceptions. Let's clarify: The Catholic Reformation does not refer to an attempt to reform the Catholic Church in England in the 16th century. In fact, the Catholic Reformation is a term used to describe the measures taken by the Roman Catholic Church in response to the Protestant Reformation that took place in Europe in the 16th century. The Protestant Reformation was led by figures such as Martin Luther, John Calvin and other reformers, who questioned and opposed certain practices and doctrines of the Catholic Church. As for Cardinals Thomas Wolsey and Reginald Pole, they were not advocates of a "Catholic Reformation" in England, but rather important figures during the period of the Protestant Reformation in England. Thomas Wolsey was an influential cardinal and chancellor to King Henry VIII. He enjoyed great power and influence at court, but he did not seek to reform the Catholic Church. He fell out of favor for failing to obtain a divorce from Henry VIII, which led to England's break with papal authority and the creation of the Church of England. Reginald Pole, in turn, was an English theologian and cardinal who opposed the Protestant Reformation and supported the Roman Catholic Church. He was made a cardinal after the death of Henry VIII, but he never came close to being elected pope. Therefore, the statement is not correct in relation to the Catholic Reformation of England. The Protestant Reformation was the main event that shaped the religious and political history of England in the 16th century, and the emergence of the Anglican Church had a significant impact on relations with other countries and religious institutions.

[@docastrov9013]

I don't like the way he always refers to Mary I reign pejoratively as "the regime" as if it was somehow illegitimate.

[@avatarofenlightenment386]

A very pro-Catholic interpretation of Queen Mary's burning of Protestants. The means employed by Thomas More and Cardinal Pole destroyed the achievement of the goal, which was the restoration of Catholicism. But a beautiful speaker makes this speculation seem as if Catholic restoration had been a realistic proposition. I doubt it.

[@wolfthequarrelsome504]

Thomas More is on record as admitting to presence at two people being submitted to torture. Your version of Thomas More's activities are part of the Protestant narrative that you chose to accept.

[@colinlavelle7806]

Thomas More was executed in 1535 during the reign of HenryVIII....he had nothing to do with the burnings under Queen Mary and besides the term protestant was unknown in that period of history. And Henry VIII considered himself a catholic when he died in 1547. So I'm not sure what your point is?

[@itsjudystube7439]

One of my ancestors was burned at the stake for heresy under Mary.

[@colinlavelle7806]

And one of my ancestors a Jesuit priest (named Hartley) was hanged, drawn and quartered under Elizabeth I.

[@tinjustusmartin3520]

England will become Catholic again...faithful like in the living years of King Alfred the Great. A true anglo-saxon english man with a catholic heart. He has made England great, and evrey catholic english King after him. Not this protestant imports, who make England to a rose without fragrance.

[@nathanc5778]

Trash.

[@mattt.4395]

really? so how and when do you think the Industrial System (and all its machines) will be conquered? i like this lecturer, but he focuses on politics and religious conflict without addressing the role of Industrialism and the (properly titled) Industrial Revolution. no way to go back now, unless somehow the whole system (including the electrical grid and computer systems) somehow fail or get destroyed.

[@moraesneto9508]

@@mattt.4395 I did’t understand you, what do mean?