Grievance Politics | Glenn Loury & Amy Wax [The Glenn Show]

[@mrptah33]

Brother I can’t get enough of your channel! It is awesome to hear African American leadership and counter narratives on all the issues that matter most in our society. The fact that you come from academia makes each of your conversations that much more informative. Critical thinking at its best! From a younger African American I thank you for having the courage to put yourself on the line by asking the hard questions that have to be felt with if we are going to able to thrive in an ever competitive world with limited resources. 🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾

[@outofbluepills]

Even a smart, clear, free-thinking economist can be taken down by a smart, clear, free-thinking attorney. I never saw Glenn so defensive and flustered, even when talking about embarrassing facts about the black IQ distribution, as when Amy made her case that too many resources go into much of higher-education, the tribe with which Glenn truly identifies. I always know that I'm in for a treat when Amy Wax is the Glenn Show's guest. Always a pleasure to hear two such brilliant, honest intellectuals agree and disagree. Well done, both of you.

[@outofbluepills]

I think that Glenn is right that his Real University could succeed, but Amy is right that it likely would have little material effect on the American college environment as a whole. I, myself, would love to attend it, though. I guess that Hillsdale is trying to do something along these lines. Glenn, perhaps you could do an episode with somebody from that school.

[@marshallkamph9789]

10k subs? This channel should have over a million. Love what you're doing Glenn. Keep it up.

[@outofbluepills]

Amen

[@fainitesbarley2245]

I don’t know why he doesn’t have more subs

[@skoto8219]

I think the major people like Glenn should have their own separate channels for their interviews. And while it would be nice to continue uploading all of Glenn's content here as well, this runs the risk splitting the view count in half for all future videos, between the new and old channels. So yeah, Glenn should just upload exclusively to his own channel - which would still be considered a Blogging Heads channel.

[@Randall_Kildare]

Glenn needs his own channel... and, he needs to dump the boomer equipment & get a real mic/camera ;)

[@mmille10]

Re. blaming the test - I was hearing stuff like this in the '90s when feminists were arguing for changing entrance requirements for jobs like firefighters, to try to get more women into those professions. They were saying that the tests were sexist, because they were "designed by men, for men," and that they were testing for things that were unnecessary. One complaint they had was that firefighters had to be able to climb over a 4 or 5 ft. wall with their full kit on, in a certain amount of time, and that women had a very tough time with that, because they didn't have the upper body strength. Another was that they required applicants to be able to carry something like a 200 lb. adult on their back. Feminists argued these requirements were just put there for men to prove how tough and strong they were to each other, and that they weren't necessary for doing the job. This argument sounded idiotic to me then. Still does. It's not that hard to imagine scenarios where doing these things is necessary.

[@golpherguy6388]

Love your takedown of Krugman, spot on.

[@thegoldendoor1930]

Great conversation! Love your show Dr. Loury.

[@maryharrington5826]

Loved the conversation, the disagreements, the absence of solutions.

[@hejla4524]

26:31 Has Glenn done a podcast on the economics of identity politics? I have never understood why companies like Starbucks or Nike support this stuff thus creating a seemingly bizarre alliance between big business and the radical left. Is it just the 'bottom line'? Has this policy been profitable or is it because the CEOs are imbued with these ideas? Glenn's thoughts as an economist would be interesting.

[@aaronkindsvatter9470]

Enjoyed this, hope to see you both at the heterodox academy conference

[@TheEpikak]

20:00 her characterization of NEJM is spot on. I eventually cancelled my subscription it was so bad. That journal has sadly been ruined by progressive thought:(

[@meri5187]

Loved this, so grateful smart people still exist, there might be some hope after all

[@timffoster]

NEED MORE THIS!!

[@khemingw]

The studies and books of Thomas Sowell, who's research and knowledge imho and his assessments of that research is not only unparalleled but says that it is not as much a matter of inferiority as it is that the schools do not demand and maintain a standard of performance but they enable and support the bad behavior and refusal of students and their parents to support the demands of a standard or standards of performance for the benefit and interest of the future of those students. However without strong families and the means to which strong families are achieved which will be rejected by educational leadership because of ideological bias, a higher standard has no chance. Amy Wax is the bomb. Glenn your perspective is most valuable and thank God for it but Amy is the bomb.

[@sarahg2653]

i love listening to these two.

[@dverchere]

These are the last two sensible people in academia.

[@thebobsagetguy]

the glenn show is the gift that keeps on giving

[@paulalaflamme3207]

I have a love of truth. It's been a great annoyance to many, occassionally myself.

[@blindtrace7220]

You better keep us up to date on that collaboration with Josh. It sounds GREAT.

[@alberteisenberg]

Smartest lady around!

[@markmoretti9122]

Brilliant conversation as always. It would be my dream to study along side Glenn Loury. You go “Josh".

[@thecognitiverambler8911]

I can't afford Glenn's proposed school. But if he devised it, I'd try my damnedest to make it work and enroll anyway. *That's* the education I would want.

[@DavidJ-iz8wl]

Of all the people I listen to, Glenn might have the best way with words. There have been so many times where he has summed up and argument in such a fantastic way lol

[@micksc1]

TREAT PEOPLE AS INDIVIDUALS SIMPLE

[@marciefinney6066]

I so want to be the "Josh" in this scenario. When I sought education in the early '90's, it was what I thought was the basis of all education. Love of learning. Love of truth. Love of academic rigor. I found the beginnings of grievance and identity politics instead. I was dismayed. I was a poor kid with no resources. My state University was nothing more than a diploma mill.

[@marciefinney6066]

We need more trade schools and better public education k -12 for the majority of people in our society. This is what I think that this lady is arguing for - not that society doesn't need higher education.

[@iayanarael2315]

This is great! Use this as example of how to converse with someone. Just play this video blow up on walls in public places continuously.

[@mmille10]

I'm inclined to agree with Wax re. "Real U", because what she said matches my own experience in talking with people not just about social issues, but scientific issues, and especially about my own area of expertise, computer science. What I see, as I've talked to thousands of people over the last 15 years about this stuff is that (doing a back of the envelope calculation) about 0.3% of the population is curious, interested in learning of their own accord, and maybe changing their minds about some things. The rest don't give a damn about any of that. I wish it was different, but this has been very consistent in what I've seen. Wax and I are also completely on the same page that our society is sending way too many kids to college, and that it's having a deleterious effect on the academic enterprise. We have had students in college for many years now who don't belong there, who can't handle the work, and it's been dragging down academic standards. This is partly because, as I've come to understand, this push for "college for all" has promoted a kind of "segregation" on campus, where the students who can handle the work get a rigorous college education in a real field of some sort, and the students who can't get non-academic slop in a department that's not worth a damn on campus, with a degree at the end of it that's not worth the paper it's written on, but the university thanks them for the tuition they've turned in... It's a crying shame, and ironically, the faculty that's teaching the slop is trying very hard to tell the rest of academia through university administrative offices how to do its job, and it's very effective at it.

[@rnicole846]

I think she is right about putting more resources into supporting “average” folks in going into trades or other professions that don’t need a college degree. I know there is a desperate need for water and wastewater operators right now. I work in this field and a huge number of employees are retiring. Working for utilities are very good paying and secure jobs. I’m sure other fields like contracting, power distribution, etc are in the same boat with so many baby boomers retiring. This is especially important because so much of the nation’s infrastructure is reaching the end of it’s useful life and needs to be replaced.

[@zxyatiywariii8]

Well said! I'm glad I didn't go to college, it would have just saddled me with a ton of debt and would've eaten up four years of my life without a good return of value. There are so many better options for many people -- like trade schools which not only cost less, but provide people with real-world job opportunities, the ability to secure a good career and income.

[@RobLanderos]

Yes, climate science is not quite a hard science, and no, not all data is in, but there is a ton of data. And what the hell is Amy Wax, a professor of law, going to do once she gets all the data that she wants to see?

[@diranshouse7061]

Dude, she can get an unbiased climatologist to read it for her. It's not that hard to find one. And I'm sure she is smart enough to tease out the facts

[@psychnstatstutor]

I'd be happy to join the Real University as a remote tertiary teacher/tutor

[@heatherchapman1984]

I would be so interested in what you two might have to say about Andrew Yang's pointing out that perhaps it would be better to focus more on getting people into vocational education, trades, etc., rather than promoting University education for everyone. He's the first politician I've heard of expressing such a thing - possibly because being a politician isn't something he's been doing up till now.

[@ishanloomba788]

I love Amy so much.

[@supitschillbro]

Thanks for the Madison shout out, Glenn!

[@burleybater]

The "Josh" story makes me salivate. Main reason is just this - if you live your life out here in the real world but still with the soul of a scholar, you can still be that 5 year-old curious kid with insatiable desire to want to know and understand until your eyes get so old they can't focus on the printed page anymore. Amy's response: I get it, I think. The democratization of education. The 5 trillion ton elephant trampling through the academy these days represents a thing that many probably suspect but that nobody talks about anymore. In another time, at least half of all these kids would have built cars at GM, assembled products at General Electric, and in ten thousand other places.......done the blue collar dance, learned trades, and worked in a robust economic spread that doesn't exist anymore. Now that's all traded for polymorphous employment prospects seen in countless movies and on TV......occupying a cubicle in front of a screen........doing what, exactly? The big hush and the big shrug and the tiny whisper that there ain't enough to go around.....hence the lower middle class struggle based on 3 part time jobs. The precariat that is supposed to hold up the boulder that is now a consumer economy running on fumes. So if a percentage (10%? 25%? 50%?) of those in universities don't belong there, in any real sense of true belonging....then where do they belong? And if that is the case, then why did we never become smart enough to figure that out and save a whole lot of wasted money and time? They think they belong there because they've been told they should. Yet a dine store degree and 7 figures of debt are all the get? We de-industrialized the real economy and industrialized education. That 1.6 trillion dollar educational debt didn't come out of nowhere. And that debt serves somebody.

[@nihilistmarmot]

Listened to/watched this back in April and was bothered by the global warming section -- it's an example of the way so many Republicans lined up against what had previously been a non-partisan issue because they began to see it through a party lens. "Chardonnay-sipping progressives believe it, so I have to disbelieve it." OK, an occasional blip in Loury's overall commentary. But reading today's Isaac Chotiner interview with Wax is making me reconsider Loury's judge of character and perspective. Giving a platform to and associating with the likes of Wax is not about heterodoxy; it's cutting off one's intellectual nose to spite PC's face.

[@Ehole_84]

Does anyone have a link for that Steve Hayward article that she references about the black motorist?

[@hejla4524]

She refers not to an article, but a KZbin video. I'm still searching.

[@hodge_feather]

Interesting and uhh passionate conversation, would love to see a follow-up. Below are just some thoughts. There are so many problems with education. I agree with Amy that vocational schools/professional training should have higher accessibility and priority. In part, many students have no clue what they want to do nor how to get there but lock themselves into a (sometimes expensive) system that they're trying to get through with minimal effort. It's not like they don't find the topics of their classes interesting, but they simply can't/won't put in the time and effort. It's much easier to cheat/bullshit your way through. The institution doesn't value your time it just wants you to finish, so why bother? I'm willing to bet around 50% of students have this mindset to varying degrees, so its no wonder universities have declined (though maybe I'm just projecting). But when you give these aimless students something to believe in like social justice and a purpose worth being passionate about (at least to them), its no wonder they are seduced.

[@carlosotero1087]

Glenn's loyalty lie with his group plain and simple. He concedes a great deal but evades and maneuvers far too much. He simply lacks the ability of removing himself emotionally when speaking about black affairs. Feelings will always play too great a role in his style of argumentation.

[@TheVietnameseDevil]

the Huynh household does not read Krugman either 🫢

[@robw1945]

I remember back in college in 2010 my econ professors complaining that the education dept had the highest GPAs and yet the lowest ACT scores (midwestern college SAT, essentially), and having to tow the line and say majoring in gender studies was a good idea to parents on tours.

[@lairdgarvin1170]

I think Glenn did a poor job on this video since the SHSAT is ridiculously easy. The math, especially, is basic algebra peaking at simplistic train problems. Furthermore, the perfect score is 800 and historically the cutoffs for admission offers have been as low as 500+-. Enterprising black students should be able to access Kahn Academy and MIT lectures to be able to completely leapfrog the content of the tests. We should be talking about how many black kids get into Stanford at 15 y/o.

[@carlosotero1087]

Glenn's loyalty lie with his group plain and simple. He concedes a great deal but evades and maneuvers far too much. He simply lacks the ability of removing himself emotionally when speaking about the state of black affairs. Feelings will always play too great a role in his style of argumentation.

[@jayhall4214]

Thomas Sowell? Can we talk about slavery and what effect it had on black America. For those who deny any affect from slavery I put in the same box with climate change deniers.

[@Jazzyluvsyou100]

The argument is weaker than you may think, modern society tends to rapidly push people up and down social hierarchies. Slavery probably has a smaller affect than you think after all these generations. Individuals regardless of race or creed, that started at the top 20 percent have an 8 percent chance to be in the bottom quintile. Modern societies rapidly pushed out old money. The cultural shifts that happened in the 1940-1970's with with increased social mobility, and then the next 50 years of the slowing of the economic mobility sort of demonstrate the sorting that partook in the country at the time. Slavery while it indeed had an affect, it's affect would be weaker and weaker with each passing generation. But the last 50 years(the time with the most socially free black population) had a decline in the social mobility that the enjoyed from the 1940s to the 1970s. Simply put, slavery is probably a statistically weaker affect than people give it credit for the modern position of blacks SES.

[@jayhall4214]

@@Jazzyluvsyou100 disagree seriously because I see too many traits from slavery in today's black culture. The upward Mobility which you speak of was prohibited by Jim Crow and slavery. That's just less than 100 years ago. I agree with your assertion regarding the movement of peoples throughout time, however, 100 or even 400 years is such a short amount of time that the affects from slavery are still prevalent. Thomas Sowell, Glenn Lowry and other conservatives make the argument that blacks are fully capable genetically of competing and they are right about themselves. But for the vast majority of black Americans, it will probably take an additional 500 years for the slave culture to work its way out of the black community and by that time it will probably be too late. That is why I don't take any of their arguments very seriously. What other explanation can you give for a culture that would laud a former gang member as being a savior of the community.

[@Jazzyluvsyou100]

@@jayhall4214 100 years is 5 generations, Jews who were commonly in the bottom quintile rapidly Rose to the top quintile. Culture again is also cross generational, my point was simply put, ses has increased during this time. Now I disagree with sowell about IQ, simply because I have done the research myself by looking at the NLYS. Simply controlling for iq accounts for 75 percent of SES between blacks and whites, and if you do the thing for say Latinos, it accounts for 100 percent. About lauding a former gang member... I personally, think that the connection to slavery is tenniouse at best here, the macismo culture also exists in poor whites, at least at my local meth addled fast restaurants. Also fatherlessness, that I believe IQ only accounts for around a quarter to a third of the differential between blacks and whites, is a major contributing factor, as well as decreased social mobility, gini for example accounts for around 50 percent of violent crime. And if you do gini analysis of parts of cities, say Chicago, parts of those cities have 40 percent unemployment... Leading for very few options for lots of those men to climb the hierarchy. Statistically slavery after all these years is probably less than 5 percent of the differential... And I say this after doing the research. Also fatherlessness after counting for iq is around 13 percent of difference in SES between blacks and whites

[@jayhall4214]

I still disagree and I think it was a lot easier to catchup in the past. Also I don't think you are looking at the problem correctly because many of the social ills that beset Black America are actually culturally derived from Africa. For example, polygamy produces an entirely different culture amongst men in a given community as opposed to monogamy. The fact is that had there been no slavery the culture of both blacks and whites would be almost the same an Amalgamated version of America. But with slavery what we have are two distinctly different cultures, how do you explain this if your position is that slavery and Jim Crow has little effect on today's conditions? I hope you can see how your argument nearly evaporates under this analysis.

[@Jazzyluvsyou100]

@@jayhall4214 Considering you brought zero data to this analysis. I wouldn't say it is nearly evaporated. Since you... provided zero statistics or data to this discussion. So let's break down why your argument is completely unfounded line by line. "I still disagree and I think it was a lot easier to catchup in the past" Not really, there is no indication in the data that after accounting for appropriate variables that social mobility for blacks should be any different for whites. Again, i litterally mapped out that fatherlessness+IQ accounts for nearly 90 percent of the variance in differences in outcomes.... 90 fucking percent... Seriously, look at the NLYS data... It Destroys this concept. "lso I don't think you are looking at the problem correctly because many of the social ills that beset Black America are actually culturally derived from Africa." What the does this mean, social ills derived from africa? I don't understand what the fuck this means, you don't have a magical undetectable ghost force where people were forced 10-16 generation ago still have "social ills" derived from africa. By that SAME logic, my Irish heritage would STILL have those social ills... it makes no sense, and has no data behind to back it up. So i can discount it. " For example, polygamy produces an entirely different culture amongst men in a given community as opposed to monogamy." Human relationships are hypergamous in nature, every society is polygomous, and they then create social technologies(such as church/religions/conventions) to control hypergamous females. Every single modern society created these technologies, from the arabs, and yes, african tribes created religious technologies too. If you interested in why africa didn't develop major cities and large population density, thus didn't have an industrial revolution, you can watch this. kzbin.info/www/bejne/gHa8mWiNdqike80 "The fact is that had there been no slavery the culture of both blacks and whites would be almost the same an Amalgamated version of America." This is retarded, first off there is no distinct white culture, or distinct black culture. And as i have demonstrated, the vast majority of SES differences between blacks and whites can be predicted in the modern era from just 2 variables. Did you know that Indians also have there own culture, did you know, that blacks in Arabic cultures also do worse than the more mediterranean population. The blacks underperforming is NOT just a problem in america, but every single fucking country with a large enough black population so that it's not skewed by a small sample size. Seriously, blacks have the same problem in britian, in sweden, in germany, ive looked at the data, EVERYWHERE, that blacks go, regardless of if there was a history of slavery or not they underperform in the country and are grossly over represented in the bottom 20 percent... It's not slavery putting blacks in bottom 20 percent in Britain... "how do you explain this if your position is that slavery and Jim Crow has little effect on today's conditions? " Because EVERY SINGLE COUNTRY, with a large black population(around 5 percent or higher) has blacks under performing the local population, Even in majority black countries, other ethnic groups outperform blacks in SES. You can't get around it. You are overselling the slavery angle for blacks current SES positions in America. "hope you can see how your argument nearly evaporates under this analysis." What analysis? you said the blacks and whites had different outcomes in america... and you are hap hazardly attributing it for slavery despite these trends being present in other first world countries.... and those not having a slave trade for blacks.. Quite simply put... this argument is weak at best... Btw, there are other casual factors that i have not even mentioned that hurt blacks.... Take for example that blacks predominantly live in highly populated areas, if you factor int he number of exposure due to leaded gasoline for example, it can decrease IQ dramatically, of no fault of thier own, people in large cities, due to the number of vehicles cognitive abilities were greatly hampered. today.duke.edu/2017/03/lead-exposure-childhood-linked-lower-iq-lower-status So if you see this. Imagine you are in a highly populated city, with lots of toxic leaded gasoline fumes, this could hurt your IQ and thus SES later on. In addition www.forbes.com/sites/travisbradberry/2015/02/10/new-study-shows-smoking-pot-permanently-lowers-iq/#226aad2c2f5b You think.... hey didn't i read a study that weed use was equal amonst blacks and whites? www.researchgate.net/figure/Prevalence-of-current-marijuana-use-among-white-black-and-Hispanic-high-school_fig2_282873068 It's not, and this can further lead to the cognitive declines that affect the abilities for blacks to move up SES. So i do agree that there WAS impedance to blacks... just not from the sources you think, and not the way you think they happened. Anyway, the point still stands... Slavery is far weaker a force than you want to admit, and you have yet to bring a single piece of data to the table... If you want to disagree, disagree because you have some facts on your side.... don't just say X horrible thing happened, so then Y happened.... That's not how you get to the truth...

[@TheVietnameseDevil]

🔺those 7 kids should be celebrated….🔺

[@jjroseknows777]

expressing a strong personal opinion, attitude, or intention that other people are likely to argue with. the definition of tendentious. She is this... and this is why she IS considered controversial. She seems to love controversy. She says stuff that has too many down-sides that you HAVE to argue with her it cannot go by without an argument..

[@RobLanderos]

It is just silly for Amy Wax to map the vagaries of medical science or other softer fields of scientific inquiry onto that of climatology. That is a weak approach for debunking the overwhelming consensus of climate scientists. Reserve belief by all means, but don’t be foolish trying to discredit that which is far out of your lane.

[@melindabar]

Agree. It's hard to watch intelligent people make excuses for dismissing the consensus. It's always done in service of the belief that the outlook probably isn't as dire as they're estimating, but if you really believe that models just can't be trusted you'd have to allow for the possibility that the models are failing to predict an even more dire outcome, yet they don't go there.

[@TheLeesto]

amy should just stay out of the climate change debate because at least in this discussion her opinion of it makes her look like an edge-lord/troll. the idea that upon review of the data, with her law background, she'll find something that consensus of experts missed seems incredible in the literal sense of the word. its also published so what's stopping her? it seems like a bad faith argument. BUT on other topics im interested in hearing what she has to say and of course glenn is provocative as usual. keep up the good work im still glad there's a discussion of these topics at all. you certainly wont hear this kind of stuff on pod save any time soon.

[@diranshouse7061]

You made an error in your assumption there buddy. She is not questioning what the experts have found, , rather she is not trusting what those who are reporting on what the experts found are saying. These are 2 different things.

[@TheLeesto]

​@@diranshouse7061 no. "i would like to study the data on climate change" - amy in this video