Griffons {Lore - Spoilers All}

[@emosarah7]

DA4 you get a griffon to ride but realize it's just a angrier mako. Thanks for the video :)

[@flamesofchaos13]

Does it come in Black?

[@emosarah7]

@@flamesofchaos13 it'll be a microtransaction

[@flamesofchaos13]

@@emosarah7 You've FAILED this city!

[@maxrander0101]

hell i would not care i have over 9000 hrs in mass effect 1 just from messing around with the mako and doing insane stunts if i can do that in the next dragon age then my friends online will not see me for a yr as i will be doing that

[@NehnBellanaris]

There's another time in history that an animal breed was low in numbers, but was brought back from almost being wiped out. The Friesian horse breed was almost wiped out during World Was 1. There was only three left on earth, but with careful breeding, they've been brought back.

[@darylmcmexican539]

Actually! There's a crash course biology video where they explained a similar occurence. I might get some small details wrong, but you see, a couple of mix breed finch studied by peter and rosemary grant on the galapagos islands were the last of their kind after a natural disaster (or drought or something). Their offsprings interbred with each other since their mating ritual is too different from other finches, but as it turns out they're okay. What I'm saying is this thing is possible so I hope bioware doesn't try to retcon it.

[@SalahDAd]

I'd say it just takes longer for the population to become diverse enough for malformations to be avoided, but with careful breeding and proper care, it is very possible.

[@casseroledragon3277]

Isn't this an incredibly rare occurrence though? Usually inbreeding, especially amongst siblings, leads to malformation and other issues? It would make more sense if the eggs aren't all related like the dogs from the story they based it on.

[@Chris_Meade]

I imagine they're gonna retcon a small thing or two. After all, its quite possible there were other clutches of eggs that Isseya saved - maybe they'll just say instead of 13 there were 2 clutches of 13 each on the cave

[@sagrawolf]

That could be possible they could just slap in a couple more clutches and just say they found several more nests around the country

[@SMsneakyninja]

Some of your episodes I just never want to end.

[@pavan5able]

the thing about genetics is, a huge part of it is chance-based. The biggest worry in incest is "what if a bad trait that was recessive suddenly shows up?" Because ideally, when you're reproducing with someone whose genes are different from yours, any "bad" trait that is recessive will hopefully be overridden by some dominant "good" trait that the person has. There's no absolute guarantee that this will happen but the chances of happening are more if your genetics aren't a perfect match. Of course if the bad trait is dominant, that's just really bad luck for you. Anyway, the point is, the chance of two recessive bad traits coming together and suddenly waking up is much higher in incest because the genes are similar if not the same. But if (and that is a BIG if) by chance, all the traits in these griffons are good and they don't have a single bad trait in them, incest won't impact them at all. I think magic might help there. But who in Thedas has that kind of knowledge about genes and traits? We haven't seen anyone with that kind of knowledge so far... the only people with that level of knowledge we've seen are the Evanuris. I'm not saying they know about it but I'm saying IF anyone were to have this kind of knowledge, it would have to be them.

[@danicauraskovic3437]

that's why I freaking love you! thanks for including the kilogram / meter measurements! :) it was a nice touch. Keep up the awesome work.

[@sokumotanaka9271]

Well personally I doubt the entirity of griffins were wiped out, I remember when aksed where the warden commander (you CAC) was they went to an area where apparently "has not been touched by the blight" who knows what creatures florish there, plus girffins seem rather intelligent compared to most animals I'm sure those that weren't sick prbably thought to protect their species and mate somewhere safe. And even if that's not the case we do this all the time with genetics it's definetly not impossible, maybe it's because I watch alot of cats and dogs 101 but humans had did crazier things with livestock, I mean look at the mabari in general. I really don't see how people can see saving the species as impossible, difficult yes but impossible? How many times has someone in this series said taht only to meet the impossible moments later?

[@flamesofchaos13]

Did the Orth people even give the Grey Wardens ALL of their Griffons? I thought they only acquired the ones they've through a few Orth recruits they got? Meaning they didn't get all Griffons of the country only some from the Hunterhorns they acquired then others through breeding. What about the ones from Seheron? How would they even get ahold of them last I checked the Qunari lands aren't Warden patrolled. Then if back then it was a piece of Tevinter, Well what was the relationship between the Imperium and Wardens back in the past? When the cut ties between them were fresh and the Tevinter Imperium outright refused to help the Grey Wardens in the First, Second and Fourth Blights! (Did they even help in the Third? We know they were detrimental/useless in the Fifth.) Would the Grey Wardens even trek through the entire Tevinter Imperium then through the wartorn seas then through the entire Seheron Island in constant warfare to aquire every last single Griffon in Thedas? How big was the population of these two separate groups of Griffons? Did the Grey Wardens have to monopolize the entire species? Did the two groups of Griffons even get along now having to live side by side...One lived on a tropical island the other in a dry mountain range then as we know the creatures are naturally territorial. You'd think they were separated for a reason? That possibly the two groups of Griffons are natural enemies or require different needs. There's a LOT of unanswered questions regarding these beasts. In all honesty with what we do in fact know (very little) it seems almost illogical to believe that the Grey Wardens gathered every last Griffon to exist on Thedas then Tainted them all to death in the Fourth Blight. In fact wouldn't the culturally distinct traditional Orth of the Anderfels get extremely pissed even outright hostile at the Grey Wardens if they had wiped out their praised pets/mounts entirely? Wouldn't we have heard about said tension or conflict?

[@petejudson5057]

I'm really in to the theories about the Evanuris being tied in to most of the plots in Dragon age. The Griffin's seem like strange creatures compared to others in Thedas. We know from old Elven writing that Ghillan'nain was meant to have created strange creatures which she culled over 3 days prior to her ascension to the pantheon. The only creatures she left were the Halla, a few beasts from the sea and of the air. I think there is some connection between them and I think in Dragon age 4 we will learn a lot more of Ghillan'nain and Elgar'nan respectively. I'm starting to lean towards there being some kind of link between Ghillan'nain/Razikale and Elgar'nan/Lusacan, despite what Solas says. I need more Lore ! 😀

[@flamesofchaos13]

@@petejudson5057 You're the ONLY Dragon Age fan I've seen that is excited about the Elvhen "God's" major involvement and perhaps ties to everything. Literally everyone else is all like 'Please no to much Elvhen-centric content already!' Or simply put 'No that's dumb fuck Elves.' Now I'm somewhere in the middle. I believe well duh they were the First Magical and Social Society to rise in Thedas so it's no wonder they're important. BUT nope people are being stupid all around because neither did DA:O or 2 focus on Elves at all in it's main campaign at least not anymore then the other races. One game doesn't mean everything is Elvhen it just means they focused on that plotline in it.

[@OrpheusMC]

Maybe getting around this problem will be a quest/storyline in DA4 and whether or not you're able to accomplish it will have an impact on the world state.

[@pieniaurinko]

As far as I know it might be possible to go on and breed those griffons, tough the Wardens would have to keep exact records for generations to come... Would be far easier with less chance of complications if you could find another clutch of eggs, or try to find a wild animal that's close enough to griffons to interbreed with. If griffons do become a feature (which I think would be pretty awesome! 8D), they could even make a quest or two out of that. And if not... maybe it's possible to use magic to cure an individual griffon baby that's affected by inbreeding in any way? Or maybe there's something crazy involving spirits that yould be tried, though I'm not sure that's advisable or weather magic healing or spirits even have an effect on genetic diversity...

[@petejudson5057]

Last Flight has HUGE implications for DA4. We know something is happening behind closed doors at Weisshaupt, I think the Wardens are splintering in to different factions after all that Corypheus drama, whilst some would be against what he did I can see others agreeing to it. The ends justify the means to the Wardens and from the tambourine looking mural there is obviously some theme linked to the 2 remaining old god's. I bet a fair few want to accomplish what Clarel started, add in to the mix the possible resurgence of the Griffin's as well and I think we have a decent side story to go along with Solas, the Evanuris and the Titans too 😀

[@taintofcartman8064]

Ghil, I love you DA lore. Please keep doing Codexes

[@johnkisir1456]

For an extinct (endangered) as of last flight species this video is long and really informative.

[@VolfKami]

8:48 LOL I'm a therapist I didn't learn real science

[@purplespeckledappleeater8738]

Two clutches of griffon eggs would have been better. Why couldn't the author just have added a second clutch of eggs so there would be around two dozen. Curing the eggs didn't seem to put that blood mage warden on the brink of death. It would have made more sense to procure another sample or two since she already had access to at least one griffon roost/stable.

[@Elisabeht-Swan]

I would love to see the griffins in a future game of dragon age and even more so if we would be able to ride one ❤️

[@jacobsedlack1173]

I want the black one if we get to choose. Btw, will Valya be our sullen but determined Grey Warden romance option in DA4? I'm getting that vibe

[@kiamaria331]

I'm pretty sure Valya has a thing with Caronel. It seemed to be implied that they would go in that direction.

[@jacobsedlack1173]

@@kiamaria331 Well Casandra had a relationship that was scrapped so she could become a romance option in Inquisition. Thinking on it now, we don't have a clue what Valya looks like. To me she just feels like the obvious continuation of the Warden romance after Alistair, Anders, and Blackwall(though Thom needs some help with the "Warden" part, but I guess we'll see.

[@millerjames908]

The questions are: do Griffins dragon age creatures/people have chromosomes in the first place? (Apparently Elves at least come from spirits.) Second are wild Griffins no longer a thing on Seyharon? (We haven't met a Qunari zoologist yet)

[@SalahDAd]

Yes and yes. Also Seheron*

[@maxrander0101]

so we do know they are coming back first dragons then griffins so when they become common again the age will end and become the griffon age

[@sagrawolf]

According to a recent leak it looks like we can play a warden and the grey wardens will be playing a major role in the game as the leak shows a bunch of them fighting what looks like 2 dragons attacking their stronghold so griffins could be very useful in fighting the arch demons in Ariel battle. Also it appears even the dark spawn aren’t safe from red lyrium

[@LingeringFlower]

Man griffons would've been awesome

[@karlmoore9422]

*Gasp* the answer is so simple....HIPPOGRIFFS!!!!!!!!!!

[@NehnBellanaris]

Only one problem with that, horses and griffons are natural enemies. Hippogriffs are a rare occurrence.

[@Jumikana]

In theory IF there is a creature that is a close enough relative to the griffins if thedas it could be used to help with the breading

[@Mila-Rosa]

We get 50% of both our parents DNA, but not the same 50% - it's random. I suppose it could be possible that at least one Griffon could have a blend of DNA that none of the others have, thus rendering it genetically diverse enough to procreate? Maybe? I'm pretty sure chromosomal mutations are the biggest issue with any offspring from related parents, maybe Griffons have the ability to avoid that and heal damaged cells? I don't know, but maybe it's pointless speculation and wild Griffons are still out there? The Warden might find them while out West..

[@XPokeSonicX]

Therapy is real science, most therapeutic approaches are evidence-based and a lot of the tools used (CBT for example) have undergone intensive testing!

[@GhilDirthalen]

Haha- see it is, and then you also have the therapists who look to pinterest for therapy techniques, who recommend oils and rock salt over doctors, who don't try to look up multiple sources for wacky treatments they heard by word of mouth. I think I'm just salty about where I've worked, honestly. There's just a real problem with pseudoscience in the therapy community.

[@Lady_Eleven]

There's a lot of ways Bioware could get around the breeding thing, but the way I think of it is, incest is problematic because it greatly increases the risk for genetic diseases because if both parents possess a faulty gene, there's a much greater likelihood of it being passed to their offspring, right? But magic can help with this without needing to involve "artificial" assistance - Griffons are at least semi-magical by themselves. Admittedly, the Dragon Age version of them is relatively mundane, but there are still heavy hints that Griffons innately have a bit of magic. If this is the case, it's possible they have "magic genes" that don't possess genetic abnormalities in the first place, or at least not very many. I have a feeling they're just going to press on and provide not much more explanation than, "maybe they were born with it, maybe it's Baby Griffon Magic." Which I'm fine with. We got what they were going for with the clutch of 13 eggs, it was poignant and significant in the story who the parents of the babies were, as long as they don't make me live through long discussions about Griffon incest I'll be happy.

[@jediguardiankyle]

8:49 I think that animals doing that kind of stuff is not as bad as humans doing it for some reason. But I have never actually looked into it just what I have heard being discussed by others that ppl do that to get pure bred animals. Or that’s what the ppl who do that say and there are actually health effects and they just ignore that part to make more money.

[@catrianheir]

Them being full siblings wouldn't be as insurmountable of a problem as you seem to think. Just be very very careful with how you breed them and you can minimize the potential for problems

[@currwhibble3565]

I would rather we not get Griffons than we get them and Merrill doesn't get a baby one.

[@allmytoonsareblue]

vaporized and contaminated blood flying at a fraction the speed of sound? how did they die, gosh i dont know i just dont know

[@Ciran87]

Well, I mean, it's not like normal breeding/genetics rules necessarily apply in Thedas, if the half-dwarf/elf/human rules are anything to go by.

[@TheMagicalPinata]

Molecular geneticist here; yeah 13 is not enough to sustain a viable population without crazy intervention. The thing with the dogs you mentioned is that they are a breed, not a species, and are being crossbred with other breeds to maintain their population. For the record, the difference between breed and species is breeds are a made up term for subsets of a species (basically inbreeding) that can mate with other members of the same species. Species cannot breed with other species. So if there are 13 members of a breed left, you can just mate them with other breeds of the same species and survive. If there is 13 members of a species left, well the genetic bottleneck will take them out. So no, that Griffon population is doomed, unless there are other factors involved (like long life spans, heightened fertility, etc).

[@eefsw4g]

Imagine the Grey wardens flying into battle with Griffons in the finale of Dragon Age 4

[@Werumo]

I don't know if this has been brought up but is it as much of a problem with animals that can reproduce through parthenogenisis (Unfertilised eggs can develop into an embryo and eventually hatch). Some lizards can reproduce asexually and then eventually reproduce sexually if the conditions are right. Komodo dragon females can lay unfertilized eggs which will produce exclusively male offspring that she can mate with to have the chance to produce female offspring. The eggs are haploid and will through some process become diploid so that means there is some genetic diversity even among the males as the haploid cells can be different so it isn't a complete clone of the mother. There will still be a genetic bottleneck but some real world species have survived like this. Also genetic diversity aside they could just continue existing as an asexually reproducing species but all griffons would be clones though.

[@maxrander0101]

they will use the magic plant that saved my loyal Barkspawn prove me wrong he is still alive and with my warden

[@marchewkaaron9951]

So Grey Wardens did play with blood magic in the past. That's a 1:0 for Dragon Age Inquisition (With all the people whining about how much grey wardens aren't perfect heroes anymore)

[@abandonmentissues1887]

Yeah they never were in wardens keep it tells you they played with blood magic and summoned demons, they were always anti heroes doing whatever it took to stop the blight

[@marchewkaaron9951]

@@abandonmentissues1887 I'll reply for that sweet satisfaction

[@anasxcm]

Yy.

[@Pink_Sinthetic]

Inbreeding isn't actually a problem in and of itself. Now, don't get me wrong, there is a massive potential for issues, but there's a specific reason for that, and that, in the simplest terms, is bad genes. In most cases, if you have one copy of a bad gene, you're a carrier, but nothing is wrong with you because the gene that goes with that one from your other parent is fine. With inbreeding, say you have a dog that has 2 copies of a bad gene that caused something to go wrong with bones. If she had 10 puppies, all of them would carry this bad gene, but none would have it. If 2 of those puppies grew up and had their own litter only 25% of them would have the problem. 25% of those would have the bad gene gone from their genetics, and 50% would continue to carry it. If you bred the puppy to the mother there is a 25% of a carrier and 75% of the problem. If you breed the puppy back to the father, there is a 50% chance of carrier and a 50% the gene no longer exists in the offspring. So, if you had two griffons, with literally no genetic problems, you could inbreed their lines forever and there would be no issues. Not unless there were mutations that crept up. And the chances of that happening while a population that had 13 eggs a clutch was still so small it was a problem is very unlikely. Considering the fact Isabela seems to be pretty solid on the idea that mages can prevent you from getting pregnant and curing STIs, methinks there's a good chance there are going to be mages that can figure out where the problems might lie. Maybe this would be a thing that elves would be naturally good at. Depending on their lifespan, sexual maturity, etc there are a couple things they could do, but if possible, it would likely be best to breed all the females to all the males in separate batches. If the average number of eggs is around 13 then that's a decent sample for each pair. And then after that you would want to breed the female offspring back to a different male from the 1st generation. And same with the males. And you keep taking the best offspring and keep breeding until you have a wide enough gene pool. Breeding offspring to parents is ridiculously common in animal husbandry. So, honestly? It's really not that big of a problem as one would think. Inbreeding is taboo as heck within people, but we do it literally all the time with animals. Especially fish. They might not have genetic testing, but a combination of mage insight and simple observation and breeding programs would have that all figured out pretty darn fast. Yes, if the griffin all carry a few things wrong with them then there is a chance those will manifest. But when it's a 75% of a healthy griffin, and only 25% chance of a griffin that has something wrong with it, for each thing, it's a pretty safe bet. Like, never breed a griffin with an obvious issue, removing it from the gene pool, and on and on ya go. Like... if I could choose a thing to do in Dragon Age for _myself_? It would be the griffin rehabilitation project. I love genetics.

[@maxrander0101]

not to mention in real life if you take the bible stories as fully true then our entire race (all humans) are related yet we are so far removed from that first line that we are not considered to be anymore

[@Ssetheea]

FIRST

[@monksters1]

They are all from the batch?! She wants to save the species but she couldn’t get another batch or two for some healthy genetic diversity? XD Still not impossible. Even in the real world. And Thedas is a world of magic so I can see them making a comeback. I’m just pissed that our Warden will probably never gets Griffon. If anyone Grey Warden deserves one it is definitely our Warden.