Grin's Ebike Motor Simulator Tutoral: --PART 1-- Basic Overview

[@trazos_d]

man this is so incredibly useful you deserve the lead on ebike quality parts selling just for how good your products and your business are 👍👍 really appreciate, defly gonna swap my 250w (500w) rad motor for a true 750w grin one to suit all my needs in the future

[@neptronix]

Been using it for 12 years and still love it. Cheers :)

[@GrinTechnologies]

Sounds like you should be doing the tutorial!

[@neptronix]

@@GrinTechnologies I'm for hire!

[@archer9056]

I recently discovered your content while searching on such topics since long ago. I found only your channel on KZbin,the one , which covered the ebike topic in such depth.people like you are the real "content creators"!! Sir please also discuss about bldc motor design aspects such as number of stator poles, magnets and winding schemes.. Thanks in advance

[@davidmckee2090]

Nice, I'm going to share this on my Facebook page. The only watch the first minute and I love

[@maxthaysen5399]

look at that bedhead... what a god. that's all natural.

[@blise518B]

What should I set the simulator if I have a QS205 V3 3,5T hub? Can you recommend a somewhat equivalent motor on your list?

[@GrinTechnologies]

If it's a 27mm stator width use the 9C+ motors, if it's a 35mm stator use the Crytsalyte 'H' motors, and if it's a 45mm stator use the MXUS motors. Then use the "KV adjust" in advanced options to match to your unloaded RPM.

[@grantadamson3478]

Excellent. Very useful for real world analysis.

[@bronicaetrs]

Love the secret agent music ending😊

[@budisantoso2890]

Incredibly usefull!! Thanks so much But i dont really understand the meaning of climbing percentage?

[@GrinTechnologies]

% grade is the standard way of defining a hill, which is the elevation rise divided by the length. EG climbing up 100m over a 1km (1000m) distance would be a 100/1000 = 10% grade hill

[@LolliPop_Farm_VT]

Trying to figure out the modeling tool now. I’m climbing Mt. Washington, NH next July, on an adaptive recumbent SteinTrike with a Grin motor ❤ 7.4 miles gaining 4,712’ at 12.1% average grade. 9:21

[@GrinTechnologies]

That is a big climb with a steep average grade, is it a model with a 20" wheel or 26" ? For this kind of application the smaller wheel diameter definitely shows its advantage.

[@LolliPop_Farm_VT]

@@GrinTechnologies it’s a 20” wheel on the back, yes it’s a brutal climb, unrelenting, and it only gets worse towards the end. The “best” simulator I ran said I’ll overheat it 47 minutes … After I tried calling, I emailed in a inquiry, yesterday

[@kiwiwombatman]

FANTASTIC TOOL !! THANK YOU FOR THIS !!

[@charlesballiet7074]

wait so your not made in the states?

[@EBikeBuilder_]

When using your “Y Cable for Dual Controllers from Single CA3-WP” , do both systems need to be running the same voltage? I have a dual motor bike one system is 52v and one is 72v, I’m Wondering if i can use the ca-wp3 splitter, Thanks!! 🙏

[@GrinTechnologies]

Good question but quite unrelated to this video! Out of the box no, with some minor wiring modifications yes, but even then the CA can only report and display a single voltage. Though the amps will get combined, no matter what the displayed wattage would be incorrect, and all associated stats (wh/km etc)

[@SamuelVella1995]

Thanks for the video!

[@DOCWHOK9]

Genius.

[@kamenkrustev]

just wow

[@Clever_Motel]

Thanks for the tutorial!

[@b.griffin317]

Is there any difference between simulating a journey with an average 1% climb and one which is 3% one third the time but otherwise flat?

[@GrinTechnologies]

Yup, but the difference is pretty minor. Check out our trip simular web app instead of you want to delve into that minutiae

[@StruwelPeter-n2f]

What is more efficiant? One motor with 20Nm, or two motors with 10Nm each?

[@GrinTechnologies]

That depends on the motors you are comparing. If they are powerful motors, than a single motor doing 20Nm will be more efficient than two large motors only doing 10Nm each as the core loss component will dominate over the copper loss. If they are small motors where copper loss at 20 Nm is significant, then two of those sharing the load will be more efficient than one.

[@StruwelPeter-n2f]

@@GrinTechnologies Thank you! Exactly what I wanted to know!

[@SmilingDevil]

How about multi motor systems mixing different motor types?

[@GrinTechnologies]

That's covered in detail in Part 3, which we should be ready to release on Friday. But you can get there on your own by just clicking the "open system b" and then choose the "add" option.

[@cohengal1584]

good video , what abut f.w. ? how i but it on the semolator?

[@GrinTechnologies]

By f.w. you mean freewheel? If so then yes, it is on the simulator, compare the curve of a geared motor with a freewheel vs a direct drive motor and you can see the difference above the unloaded speed. Freewheeling motors show 0 torque, while non-freewheeling motors have a negative torque and power associated with overcoming the core losses.

[@chuyskywlk]

@@GrinTechnologies I think (and would love to see) that they mean Field Weakening

[@cohengal1584]

@@GrinTechnologies mean field wikininig

[@PixelPainta]

Where’s the QS motors ?

[@GrinTechnologies]

There are a number of 27mm, 35mm, and 45mm stator width DD motors already on there, so not much value in testing and putting up more of the same. The 3rd video actually goes into how to use an existing motor model (like the MXUS if you want to compare with a 45mm stator QS) and use the KV adjustment slider to make it a decent match.

[@dylandesmond]

Add the 273 40h and me1616 motor to the list....

[@GrinTechnologies]

We could do if you are offering to donate some units for the required dyno testing and characterization.

[@falenone11]

For a first ebike what should I go with? Hub or mid drive? Having regen would be super nice as I wouldn't have to use the breaks all that often though but a bunch of videos say mid drive is snappier. Then again I want an ebike for just casual riding where I have almost no hills

[@GrinTechnologies]

Well our opinions on this front are pretty well known and laid out in some detail here: ebikes.ca/learn/why-hub-motors-are-awesome.html Honestly for a first ebike you'll be happy with either, but there's a greater maintenance overhead with mid-drive and for many people once they've experienced regen it's hard to go back. Mid-drives do have a great snap off the line if you remembered to gear down before stopping, that is true.

[@sammiller6631]

Mid drives are more complicated, requiring a higher learning curve (like a manual transmission on a car) to avoid stressing the bike. That leads to higher maintenance even when you learn to shift well as the entire drivetrain is exposed to added wear and tear from the motor. People who enjoy shifting gears in a car can feel a middrive is snappier or "more natural" because the middrive requires that extra step of shifting input that they crave. The simplest option is a direct drive hub motor, which have no moving parts other than bearings, so they last longer with little to no maintenance, covering longer distances at higher speeds. If you add regenerative braking, then your brakes last longer too.

[@bronicaetrs]

More valid opinions you get the better. It you want a plug and play easy peasy build it in an hour or so then hub motor is for you. They heavier and painful when you flat cause there ain’t no easy way to remove the rear hub. When you throttle ride a hub motor, theres off and on and you’re not really using the gears as much. Mid drives make more sense; especially if you had a hub motor before then changed. The balance of the bike feels more natural and the freewheel feels validated again. There’s a learning curve to preserving your investment, like you dont want to keep breaking your chain, then there’s small routines that become second nature that you learn to enjoy this type of drive and the cost of getting it and all the upgrades that you swear you cant afford but bought anyhow seem trivial.

[@00kingi]

Can you use the system to change any controller settings? How do you connect? Or do I need a grins controller?

[@geemy9675]

mid drives are great for climbing very steep hills in lower gears, efficiently and without overheating. also dthey dont add weight to the rear wheel. serious eMTB are mid drives, road bikes too. its also a must have for cargo ebikes in hillly terrain, unless you have a very powerful and torquey hub motor. they usually also have torque sensors, which is great too. but hub motor is also great especially if you take the time to make sure it's correctly sized and configured for the kind of hills you're going to tackle, which the simulator makes much easier. yyou can also have torque sensor on hub motors buts its not common especially on prebuilt ebikes

[@hambernat6444]

Do you live on the moon? 200W means for you "really putting out" ? Really putting out on hill is like 500W, if you sprinting it's mostly 600-1200W, if you training heavy weightlifting very hard you could hit 2000W mark. And Robert Quadzilla is able to put out about 2300W max. 1h World record on track is estimated for 460W. Most of normal men would be able to sustain 220W for 1 hour.

[@GrinTechnologies]

Take a random person off the street, put them on an exercise bike, and ask them to maintain 200 watts for 10 minutes straight. Most people would be sweating buckets by the end of that. Yes for a fit athlete it would be a walk in the park but that's not a representative sample of the population which this video is addressing.

[@zwoopsies]

This suspense is terrible. I hope it will last.

[@hambernat6444]

Incredibly useless, set 0W human power, got 30km/h, set 200W human power, got 33km/h. Results are insanely stupid... 200W in it's own would be enough to ride at least 25 km/h.

[@GrinTechnologies]

Spend some time to look at the actual numeric data to understand what is going on and it hopefully will all make sense to you. In this case you are modeling a system near the unloaded speed where the motor power is back-emf limited. As your human power increases the speed of the bike, the motor power goes down significantly. So most of that 200 watts of human power is negated by a similar reduction of the motor power. If you want to see what it looks like to additively put 200 watts of human power without the motor power going down at all, then change the controllers throttle type to torque based, selected a motor + voltage combo with a higher speed, and then adjust the throttle down to get 30 kph with no human power. Like this: ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?batt=B5220_GA&cont=BRZ9&throt=25&hp=0 The motor output power is 285 watts generating 11.2 Nm of torque. Now if you add 200 watts of human power, you can see that the speed increases to 39 kph, with the motor still producing 11.1 Nm. ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?batt=B5220_GA&cont=BRZ9&throt=25&hp=200