Grip Gains Ep. 01 - Climbing Grip Muscles with a Specialist Hand Surgeon

A new series on the channel devoted to training for strong hands and related topics. On the first episode, I'm joined by a world class expert in function hand anatomy. We discuss functional climbing anatomy and the go through each grip type and recommend training tips.
#bouldering #climbing #novascotia #rockclimbing #halifax

[@ThePianistOS]

Some notes that I took throughout: * Extrinsic muscles (in forearm) I. Wrist flexors Flexes the palm of the hand toward the wrist Two flexors -- start in the forearm and attach via tendons to the wrist. II. Finger Flexors i. FDS tendon + muscle belly Bends middle joint of finger ii. FDP tendon + muscle belly Bends distal joint of finger (closest to finger tip), as well as middle joint. III. Thumb flexors FPL Bends middle joint of thumb * Intrinsic muscles (in hand itself) I. Thumb adductor Muscle between thumb and index finger. Responsible for bringing thumb toward index finger. II. Thenar muscles Meaty part at base of thumb, brings thumb toward pinky finger. III. Intrinsic finger flexors Flex the proximal finger joint (furthest away from fingertips). * Grip types: I. Open hand crimp (incl. Nova Scoctia slopers): FDP One muscle belly for all fingers -- this is why pockets require all the fingers to curl at once for maximum strength. To train, you should therefore engage all 4 at the same time. Can separately train pockets for skill. II. Close handed crimp: FDP + FDS + Hand intrinsics III. "True" Slopers i. Smooth open hand slopers Wrist flexors and hand intrinsics. Finger flexors are still engaged ii. Wrapped grip slopers Finger flexors become weak -- hand intrinsics + wrist flexors dominate IV. Pinches i. Wide pinch Thumb adductor + Hand intrinsics ii. Narrow pinch Increasing thenar contribution as pinch narrows.

[@Mobeta]

Amazing - pinned!

[@paulbissonnette7056]

Phenomenal content! Would love more like this for functional and anatomic considerations to hand injury from climbing

[@Mobeta]

Thanks for the feedback! I tried to make the video I wanted 10 years ago when I started my training journey. I can cover injuries, but it would be helpful if you put together some specific questions.

[@telkmx]

@@Mobeta Would love more educational video like that. Straight up training stuff

[@NoahGrandry]

@@Mobeta hi, something rather interesting topic is on how to overcome tendonosis on the medial epicondyle(golfers elbow). I am already struggling with this for 2 years and i can't get on top of it :/

[@qotsa1234]

Your content deserves so much more attention

[@Mobeta]

I'm glad you liked it enough to say so. That's good enough for me.

[@KrisCantClimb]

Thank you so much for sharing this knowledge. This video was both educational and easy to understand!

[@Mobeta]

Thanks, glad it was helpful. I spent countless hours discussing with Dr. Wheelock off camera to try and make it clear and understandable

[@jackvermaak9800]

What an interesting and insightful video!! Loving the more scientific approach to climbing you've been showing in your QnA videos!!

[@Mobeta]

Thanks! I've spent more brain power than I care to admit thinking about gripping boulders 😅

[@felixhermes1223]

Incredible that such content is out there for free! Very grateful and shoutout to the channel owner!

[@Mobeta]

Glad you found value! I haven't monetized this channel, I do this as a hobby, so it truly is free content

[@felixhermes1223]

@ incredible!

[@leon-do]

I'm so glad I came across this.

[@giotto4321]

Very interesting and informative, thanks.

[@pierremilot8117]

You should definitely show us the 7 exercises!

[@Mobeta]

Thanks for the suggestion. I plan on showing you my selection, and providing some options. There is lots of room for customization when designing your own program.

[@pierremilot8117]

@@Mobeta Awesome, thanks!

[@sightreader2507]

Looking forward to the next video! This was incredibly informative and interesting. Thanks :)

[@Mobeta]

Appreciate the support! I wasn't sure how much interest there would be, I'm glad you enjoyed it.

[@sightreader2507]

@@Mobeta Are you kidding !? In 20 minutes I know exactly why I'm weaker on large pinches and slopers, after years of speculations and uncertainties about how to tackle this weakness. Hand intrinsics, I'm coming for you! To be honest, this is unique and precious content among the massive pile of climbing training media, and I'm sure it would attract a ton of attention if the video received some advertisement.

[@Mobeta]

Awesome! That's exactly how I hoped it would help. I spent years working though these concepts and tried to give the info I wish I had when setting up my training program.

[@MacroMan.0]

Thank you so much for sharing this knowledge! I can't wait for the next episodes and to improving my training methods. 😊

[@Mobeta]

You're so welcome!

[@sqealerr]

8:25 that form does make you slightly stronger but can cause your lumbricals to tear. Instead, keeping the proximal phalanges (bottom segment of your fingers) in line with one another while climbing on pockets is the safer form because you limit the quadriga effect and reduce the risk of injury.

[@Mobeta]

Yes, we were alluding to the quadriga effect but purposely limiting jargon. Valid point for those interested, thanks. The specifics of pocket grip safety is beyond the scope here.

[@illan5505]

Awesome content ! Looking forward for the follow up video with the differents exercises for each muscle group 😁

[@Mobeta]

Thanks! That's the plan!

[@Simikins]

Fantastic video, learning so much. Looking forward to the next part in the series!

[@Mobeta]

Thanks for the support! I enjoyed making this video, and am looking forward to keep working on it

[@danielsigursson6215]

Highly interesting material and very informative. I love seeing expert insight on topics and this was excellent! Thank you for bringing this to us. Looking forward to more content.

[@Mobeta]

Glad it was helpful! Personally, understanding principles is key to program adherence long term!

[@danielsigursson6215]

@@Mobeta I wholly agree!

[@noah.komorowski]

so well explained!!! Wow! Loved it

[@arthurkock881]

amazing video, looking forward to the next

[@Mobeta]

Appreciate the support! This series is a trial, if people are psyched, I'm happy to continue

[@jonzo802]

amazing stuff, thanks!

[@gabrielegiganti9544]

This is the best video I ever watched on youtube

[@Mobeta]

That's awesome! I've screenshotted this and passed it on to Dr. Wheelock!

[@seb6302]

I'm chomping at the bit to see the exercises we should do to target these muscle groups effectively and separately

[@Mobeta]

Working on it - stay tuned!

[@couscousineau9162]

Dave, was great meeting you at Kong. This is amazing content.

[@Mobeta]

Thanks! Had a great time, thanks for the event. I caught the bug and I'm planning to add some grip sport to my climbing training and to train this winter for a grip event with seb in spring

[@ratchanonsupakit4375]

Golden content, keep it up

[@louis6004]

This is gold! Thanks 🙏

[@Mobeta]

You're welcome! Glad it was helpful!

[@birdboulders1233]

Fantastic content! Very educational. Also, I at first tought you guys are doing this in front of a green screen, since you look so professional, until you grap the hold in the boulder :D

[@Mobeta]

Thanks! That's funny, a good friend just told me the same thing 😁 Dr. Wheelock really elevated the professionalism of the channel, all credit goes to her.

[@wetl2628]

Intersting. My climbing buddy is naturally super strong in open hand stuf (we both climb about a year). He can do pull ups on his two middle fingers in open hand grip and does weigted hangs without propper training on the smaller edge on a beastmaker. He avoids half crimps and full crimps, he doesn't even try, because he doesn't feel comfortable with them. I on the other hand lack the strenght in the open position and gravirate to half crimps and full crimps. I have a background in maual Labour (welder) so i imagine the intrinsic muscles are more devellopped but the FDP is lacking. Thx fot the info!

[@Mobeta]

I think your theory is spot on. Labourers have impressively strong closed handed grip. Ever see the forearms on a dairy farmer? They are never balancing things on their finger tips. They pick up heavy loads, hold it and stabilise it as they work. This leads to strong FDS, intrinsics and wrist flexors. The carnival guys will tell you - they lose the most money on their rolling dead hang handle to farmers, NOT climbers. This is because the name of the game there is wrist flexion and close handed grip.

[@manseau7214]

Amazing stuff, thank you. I still wonder about tendon strength and stiffness. Do they play a role in some climbing grips? Always tought that high angle crimps (agressive full crimps) were involving more the tendon than the muscle. And that bigger edges and lower angle crimps were involving more the muscle. What do you think? Can't wait to have your opinion on this, feels like the information is nowhere to be found! Peace :)

[@D4NKN4]

thank you so much for sharing so much and for inviting an important and qualified guest. would you know any treatments possible for tenosynovitis of the extensors?

[@Mobeta]

The best treatment is a careful program of eccentric strenghthing. This takes care and experience. Guidance from an experienced physio is best.

[@idkwhattouseforname]

Very insightful! Would love to hear your thoughts on the muscles involved in jamming. Hand jams sound like hand intrinsics and thenar?

[@Mobeta]

I have no experience in hand jamming, that said, I think you are correct from what little I know about jamming techniques.

[@1012rwang]

Some thoughts. This video is a great source of information for the flexors. However, extensors which balance out the flexors are not touched on at all. It would be great to have another video talking about how the extensors complement the flexors, and what sort of training would be ideal for them. Overall I love the content and can't wait to see more!

[@Mobeta]

THanks for the suggeston, I'll talk with Dr. Wheelock to guage interest.

[@digitalsmear]

Really interesting! So, does this suggest that when holding a very large flat edge, it might be better to hang with the bend of the PIP joint on the edge, instead of the MCP on the edge? I've been working a project with a rest on a large flat hold and I've been struggling to figure out how to get anything back in this position and, if I'm right about hanging from the PIP joint, that would explain it!

[@Mobeta]

@digitalsmear It depends on the edge, but definitely likely will be easier to hang at PIP with forearm extrinsics than MCP hand intrinsics. You can alternate grips as a strategy for more recovery if hold allows for it.

[@digitalsmear]

@@Mobeta Great! Thanks so much for the videos.

[@brenenriggs4678]

I wonder if there is any use in training extensors? Any thoughts on this, even if just for injury prevention?

[@Mobeta]

Muscle antagonism doesn't work the way it's commonly explained for injury prevention. I train flexors, not extensors, for flexor injury prevention. By far, the number one injury prevention strategy is training the muscle of interest with proper technique, volume, intensity, ergonomics, and recovery. These training fundamentals more the issue - they are poorly understood in the climbing fitness community because training isometrics isn't well understood.

[@yarharyar]

Cool setting for an anatomy class, fuckin' a!

[@Mobeta]

I'm lucky to have such a nice recording studio 😊 I'll have to pause the series for winter though...

[@bradlymathisen8759]

Great video but what about wrist extension especially for stabilizing the wrist during slopers as well as pulling the hand back when you go into that full crimp position?

[@Mobeta]

We intentionally didn't cover extensors. Their role is support as you identified. Brachioradialis, pronator quadratus, supinator, etc. all play supporting roles. They aren't performance limiting and require no additional training for the majority of athletes. Their role in full crimp is different than you describe.

[@bradlymathisen8759]

@@Mobeta Thanks for the response. I'm not a hand expert, I ask as a gym owner who sees a fair amount of injuries that seem to come from those "gym style slopers" you described. Not being an expert all I can say is the pain from injury 'seems' to be located around the wrist extensors or retinaculum. If no additional training is needed why does it seem to be an injury of increasing frequency?

[@Mobeta]

@@bradlymathisen8759 Thanks for clarifying. I have a better handle on what you are asking. My comment around no need for training was from a performance perspective. Rehabilitation is it's own complex topic. I checked with Dr. Wheelock. Dorsal extensor pain is a very uncommon presentation so a more specific diagnosis isn't possible without physical examination. Generalised wrist pain from ligamentous laxity and strain is common in younger people, women, and untrained individuals in general. Sorry I can't be more helpful in this specific case.

[@billy44talent]

Can you please cover shoulders at some point. This was amazing

[@Mobeta]

I was planning to limit scope here to hand training. I'll think about it. Maybe rehab / prehab.

[@samjasper541]

Can you clarify what you mean by "open hand crimp" versus "sloper" grip? Is it that in "open hand crimp" you are primarily/exclusively loading at the finger tip and not distributed across the whole hand? I normally differentiate grip types based on the relative positions of the IMR DIP and PIP joints, so open/drag has DIPs above PIPs, halfcrimp has them about equal, and full crimp elevates PIPs higher than DIPs.

[@Mobeta]

You are using a slightly different conceptual framework for the same concept. Grip starts FDP dominant with progressively more FDS and Intrinsics as you close the hand. I think my point about crystal slopers being an FDP dominant grip and thus essentially a open hand crimp is confusing the matter.

[@samjasper541]

​@@Mobeta I'm definitely following your FDP to FDS spectrum but I had also wondered if you had systematized definitions for other grip jargon, e.g. the word "crimp" itself. I have trouble communicating some grip terms because of how loosely or ambiguously they are used. For example what I (and I think you in this video) call a closed crimp (with thumb wrapped) I hear many people refer to as a full crimp. I think of the open/closed hand dichotomy as one of the clearest, if your hand is open you can pick up an object like a cup, if it's closed, you can't.

[@Mobeta]

I agree, I like open and closed. There will be endless intermediate variations, but people functionally specialize in one form or the other. I see thumb as an assist and doesn't define grip type. We get thumb involved on granite on absolutely all hold types. The opposite is also true, some "full crimps" block the thumb, but this doesn't change their functional finger anatomy. Thumb uses completely different anatomy.

[@andreagavazzi8276]

Is there any difference between what you call "four fingers open hand crimp" and a "four finger drag"? Aka a four finger version of the three finger drag. Or are they the same thing from an anatomical point of view?

[@Mobeta]

Correct, synonyms.

[@gastonmaffei]

Even though the shape of a wide pinch looks like a flexing of the fingers by the intrinsic muscles, why can't it be the case that much of the force actually comes from an isometric contraction of the flexor tendons (that just happen to be pretty elongated in that position)? When I think of pinching hard, I don't think of keeping my fingers straight, but rather squeeze like trying to crush a soda can, flexing every muscle that can contribute to generating gripping force

[@Mobeta]

We said in the beginning, these grip types are a combination of all muscles working together. Our discussion focused on limiting factors to diagnosis weakness and structure training. Ofcourse extrinsics contribute in pinch but are not the limiting factor and are not the dominant flexor at MCP

[@chriswitz3949]

Is it fair to say for training efficiency, you dont need to do open crimp since full crimp includes the same anatomy? Assuming enough volume of course.

[@Mobeta]

In multi muscle movement, the muscles that gets the highest training stimulus will be the performance limiting contribution. This will vary by individual. The analogy is bench press. Triceps or pectorals could be limiting. Close handed crimp is FDS + FDP + Intrinsics. In this combination, it's unlikely FDP be performance limiting factor and thus won't recieve adequate training stimulus. We can see this empirically because there are many strong closed crimp specialists with relatively weaker open hand crimp strenght. Considering that FDP is the single most important muscle in climbing, I would target it specifically.

[@chriswitz3949]

Awesome. I'm actually an open grip specialist trying to improve my closed grip. After your video everything is starting to make sense. Thanks!

[@Mobeta]

That is super common here. A good friend of mine has done granite V13 FAs but struggled on V6 repeats on bishop micro crimps. Inspirational on one hand, a cautionary tale on the other - a discrepancy that large would take years to even out.

[@hobgoblin7336]

thanks for the insight! what would training for the intrinsic finger flexors look like? This is hard to conceive of for me.

[@Mobeta]

Thanks for the support, motivating to continue the series. And thank you for the question, I will answer it in a follow-up video.

[@williamlowry8809]

is being an orthopedic hand surgeon aid???

[@Mobeta]

😂 we live in Canada, so no, being an orthopedic surgeon doesn't help (they don't do hand here)

[@climbingnewfie]

I hate those "gym" slopers as they thrash my wrists in a way I have never experienced outside, now I know why hahaha

[@Mobeta]

Athletetic tape on the wrist is a common sight in climbing gyms

[@climbingnewfie]

@Mobeta I just stopped going lol

[@Mobeta]

Yeah, me too. Outdoors is so good. You're on a tear these days. Your psych on outdoors reminds me of early mobeta.

[@gdalmuti]

Apparently you're not a crack climber. I never thought about the similarities between and a hand jam and narrow pinch before.

[@Mobeta]

Correct, jams are rare here. Anatomy for jams is beyond my experience, but that's an interesting observation. I can see how you'd use thenar bulk to modulate hand width.

[@aninalabudda9423]

Please make a good training program and show in a video, this format wasn't too useful from a practical standpoint

[@Mobeta]

I'm sorry this isn't what you are looking for. My goal is to educate. There are thousands of videos already on KZbin that may suit your requirements better - you may have better luck with a different channel. Good luck in your training journey!

[@aninalabudda9423]

@Mobeta sorry but if I would create a video. I would try to do the best job possible, you don't! Why not do theory AND practice? You claim having special education for you and your guest. All the other dudes are just climbers not medical practicioners. I hoped for a science based approach, you delivered nothing useful. People want to know how to best build finger strength not all the different muscles involved without any practical insight. I thought I might get something else than just the standard 20mm edge half crimp 10sec hangs, instead you wasted 20min of my time.

[@Mobeta]

@aninalabudda9423 I'm putting out free content that I enjoy at my own expense. If you don't like it, don't watch. My video style just may not be for you. It's a series. We are building towards recommendations. I want to discuss the foundation so my audience understands the foundation before I jump into recommendations. I just released another video in the series. You'll probably dislike the next one too.