Do Golems RUIN Fantasy Economies?

[@Grungeon_Master]

Just to clarify, for the first part of the video I am discussing clay golems (I.e. those created from clay, prayers, scrolls and magic), which is where my expectation of the golem being a cheap enough labour substitute comes from. Certainly, if we start making clockwork or magically reinforced iron golems, this notion is right out of the window, which I kind of address in the second part.

[@ChasePhifer-hj3wl]

Just gonna say it, but if a world has a lot of magic users, there shouldn't even be economics as we know it. It should be a moneyless post-scarcity society. You mean to tell me that wizards are abundant and can cast fireballs and resurrection, but can't make a simple cheeseburger 🍔😂 Magic users should be the replicators (star trek analog) or create replicators for the world.

[@starburst98]

For comparison in dnd, the most basic food making spell is "goodberry", it makes 10 magical berries that can satiate a normal human for 1 day, they also lose their power after 24 hours. It is a 1st level spell, but only druids and rangers can learn it, the classes that need more harmony with nature to gain. You can't force a druid to sit inside all day and repeatesly cast the spell, that would probably damage their nature harmony mojo and they would lose the ability to cast it. Also, despite being first level it takes long rest to restore uses of it, so it is practically a once per day spell. The kind of spellcasters that get high level and have a lot of spell slots are ether ancient and have studied for decades, or adventurers who need the explody spells to fight the monsters to get exp to get those level. All said and done, it is extremely difficult to make mass amounts for food for many people.

[@douglasphillips5870]

Adventures will crash an economy long before even cheep golems become an issue

[@KevinWarburton-tv2iy]

Yes, Elementalist Magic of Water, Fire, Earth & even Air/Wind would help food growth ...never mind you could also just have some growth magic. Also you could use Magic for sowing instead of needing ploughs.

[@gamecavalier3230]

​@@starburst98Just because it's only on the Druid and Ranger Spell list doesn't mean that only Druids and Rangers can learn it. For example, a lore bard could learn it at lvl6 with magical secrets.

[@petersmythe6462]

"a golem given orders too general finds itself betraying its master in pursuit of its noble goal." TIL we've been working on AI alignment problem for thousands of years.

[@СергейМакеев-ж2н]

Read the short story "The Last Christmas" by Alexander Wales. It's sort of similar in how it depicts "Christmas elves".

[@Shadow1The]

​@@СергейМакеев-ж2нAlexander Wales is an amazing Author

[@lostbutfreesoul]

I always loved that Terry Pratchett had a 'Golem Revolution' that was 'work harder!' When you see the damage a Golem following orders can do....

[@marceloantunes998]

My dude just went full Terry Pratchett on the implications of a golem workforce

[@marceloantunes998]

@@hanzzel6086 That is what he wrote Golems got so recycled so many times with different orders that they gained sentience and emancipated themselves by writting their own papers

[@SymbioteMullet]

​@marceloantunes998 you ever read Making Money, by sir Terry? Golem backed currency is an important point in that one.

[@marceloantunes998]

@@SymbioteMullet That's the one with were the con man takes over the bank right? I've read them all but they're so many that they're all just kind of jumbled together

[@SymbioteMullet]

@@marceloantunes998 yes it is, the later ones blur together for me too (just because I've read them less than the early ones!)

[@lostbutfreesoul]

I love how Terry made Golems useless as war-machines, in the same way mentioned here. Teach everyone the programing secret and Tyrants are just marching over a free workforce....

[@MJS-lk2ej]

2:44 fun bit of trivia, during the medieval age, they imagined the future of transport would be horses made out of metal. sounds an awful lot like an animatronic.

[@NecromancyForKids]

It happened in Vampire Hunter D

[@DrLongWang]

I think what most people don’t understand about labor saving devices is how hard they are to make. Back when steam engines were invented they were a novelty. Same with robot. Same with gunpowder. Golems in worlds like dnd probably serve the same role as humanoid robots do in our world. Pretty uncommon, some countries have a few doing service jobs because they look cool. But that’s about it. It just isn’t economical to mass produce them.

[@endymionselene165]

Key word would be, "Yet".

[@theprinceofawesomeness]

the thing with Golems is that they are strong and can be used to carry stuff, but then also golems are expensive and can't do as much work at the time as any other human but they don't need to rest, futher more it cost more to create a golem then it cost to keep a labure force on the payroll for the rest of thair lifes. it would ether be something a stupidly rich persion commisioned or/and they would see more use in societies with less strong races

[@thekaxmax]

depends entirely on cost, and that's setting-dependant. Also, note that a golem will last forever unless deliberately damaged, so long-lived species will take that into account. Also note that a golem can do work that mortals can't, like standing in lava.

[@manuelferrari6685]

@@thekaxmax However, golems are incapable of performing complex tasks and fill the same role as a very large and strong humanoid, nothing to justify the insane cost. Unless very specific situations, such as a mine with unbreathable air, they are never worth it as a workforce. As soldiers or guards on the other hand...

[@thekaxmax]

@@manuelferrari6685 of course. As I noted, 'standing in lava'. They will never be common, but there are things that can't be done by living beings. But note the origin of Warforged, where hugely expensive magic items were used to make thousands of not enormously expensive combat golems that happened to wake up.

[@albertcapley6894]

The nobles with their golem workforce would either form a separate society from the poors (as they don't need them, and they don't really need to extract wealth from their labor, unless they are personally greedy/cruel) and the most compelling question at that point is if the nobles try to maintain exclusive control over resources and the means of production. If they do, the revolt becomes necessary for survival, if they don't then you might just see that fan theory about the Flintstones where the Jetsons live on the same world, just up in the sky. Or maybe the nobles create a "Rapture" like in bio-shock and just leave the world to its own devices, meanwhile creating a libertarian hell for themselves in the process.

[@verkhvo]

they sure did ruin iron's place in the minecraft economy

[@petersmythe6462]

I swear to gods they could improve their game so much but changing a couple recipes, making iron golems tougher to kill, and making them only drop iron when killed by a player. They'd actually be worthwhile as base defenders since they'd have so much armor and probably absorption hearts for DR.

[@badideagenerator2315]

​@@petersmythe6462mojang patched it and a bunch of people got really mad that they couldn't exploit the game for free resources anymore, so mojang changed it back.

[@1gengabe]

Due to the amount of iron that is needed for massive red stone machines the economy needs golems, but player built golems are a 36 -> 5 iron trade off, the only reason iron golems are good is because villagers can summon them when scared, making an iron farm no different from any farm in Minecraft, which Minecraft just has a bad economy but it is a building game so the economy isn’t important

[@badideagenerator2315]

@@1gengabe i think the issue here is that these farms work in the first place. Mojang probably hasn't patched all these farms because they would then have to make combat vs monsters more engaging and rewarding to compensate, which would be even more work for them.

[@frostyelkk]

​@badideagenerator2315 Also building huge farms to produce obscene amounts of resources is just fun; they shouldn't be 'patched'. If you don't like them, don't use them.

[@gabrielespindola4461]

I can see two factors stoping stoping golens from overtaking the market. 1: cost. If the creation and maintenace of a golem requires expensive materials or advanced knologe It may be umprofitable to employ golens in fields where their strengh or endless endurance cannot be exploited. 2: comands. If the comands cannot be expanded in complexity or safety golens can become a powerfull tool restricted to niche uses, similar to early computers.

[@theprinceofawesomeness]

we see it in real life (be it Amarican Slaves), it was cheaper to keep and expand labour than it was to invest in more efficient machines

[@thekaxmax]

expanding on item 2 is how they got Warforged. :P

[@sidecharacter7165]

It was only cheaper short-term@@theprinceofawesomeness . It lost out to long-term investment, but like today, spending more money now for more later sounds bad for quarterly returns.

[@matthiuskoenig3378]

@theprinceofawesomeness actually machinery was cheaper than slaves in america. The arguments for slaves in america was not economical.

[@Pyre]

Tom: "I like to take an optimistic view of industrialization, but..." Proceeds to describe the screaming nightmare/desperate wet dream of capitalism, where all labor is done by dutiful machines controlled by one or two people through the input of a couple commands, who then reap *all* of the profit. Then proceeds to describe the fantasy equivalent of the one meaningful hypothesis we have about making true AI: you get a network that learns until it can think, reason, and make decisions like a person. Because at that point it IS a person, thank you Masamune Shirow. Or Diane Duane, and "store enough magical energy in one place for long enough, and it will become self-aware." And what happens next could be anything. D&D and Starfinder have both explored this, with Warforged and Androids respectively. Or maybe golems really *do* just stay rare, incredibly dangerous tools of powerful arcanists. Shoutout to the guy on the last video who responded to this exact observation in those comments: "Congratulations, you've discovered tanks."

[@etherealceleste]

What you describe has nothing to do with capitalism. Capitalism is ONLY the free exchange of value between willing participants. Everything else is baggage added by swindlers and manipulators.

[@llamatronian101]

"Kill everyone on the other side of that ridge." That order was given over a hundred years ago. Today those golems arrived in your village. What do you do?

[@NotreDanish]

6:54 You almost immediately made me wonder about the result of two different types of Golems, Divine and Arcane. Divine Golems would be driven by their divine origin more than specific instruction, and Arcane Golems would have to be given exact instructions but have no connection to divinity, and are thus completely under their creator’s control.

[@llamatronian101]

As a software developer myself, those arcane golems aren't completely under anyone's control.

[@theprotagonists2019]

Very interesting parallels between your golem workforce enlightenment and the story of the warforged in the Ebberon setting for 3.5 D&D. Both starting as a 'non-human' solution (even competing against undead in the same roles) and eventually being told or forced to become something more. On a side note, have you ever looked into the Tippyverse of D&D? It's a very interesting experiment where the rules of the game are taken at face value and that leads to some very interesting developments.

[@gmanbo]

Some thoughts...... This timeline supposition is bound to the idea of the scripts becoming complex enough that weirdness begins to happen. Other golem concepts have other but similar issues. The golem with the cores of precious gems or other things that requires magical glyphs. This would likely end up in the same vein. But would be limited by the availability of gems. Untill someone figures out how to manufacturer the needed gem in a lab. I ran across a story somewhere that described an ancient villain that bound the flesh of dwarves with that of stone. Making golems with the soul+ flesh of a sentent being. Some I think broke from his control and learned to communicate again. With this a society that before death encouraged the elders to transform into golem form to fight long with them. ( A step up from the undead in my opinion) A thought about the script based golems. Ink, paper, and the material that makes up the golem are all things that need to be accessed to maintain a continuous flow of golums. Everything breaks down eventually. + War inevitably causes casualties. A monarch that is totally dependent on a single type of golem is going to have a supply bottle neck somewhere. That if this point is pinched off. The whole support base for his military and economy would dissolve. A likely reason golem based nations don't appear to often. The parts that are needed to create always have an expensive magical and likely rare component. That either can run out or be lost in conflict. There are also golems that are more robotic in nature. The way they move is through wires in a medium or plant like veins flowing through the medium they are created from. Such as the DND warforged. Great example of consequences of messing with weaponizing life.

[@ernestlam5632]

I feel like I'm hearing the history of the Warforged here.

[@marcogenovesi8570]

I think it would be worth looking into limitations of modern automation. In most cases the biggest issue is startup cost. I.e. most jobs can be automated already but the automation that could replace them is vastly more expensive than having someone do that. A classic example is final assembly of smartphones. Yes it can be automated. But it's a complex task and preparing the lines to do that would be more expensive than hiring some low-pay third world country workers. Another one is for small production runs. Real automation makes sense over manpower only if you are making big enough production batches to justify the investment to set up the production lines. And even then, the cost of a production line does not increase linearly with the amount of production capacity, the price increases more slowly. So for example you can get a line that produces 10x but is less than 5x more expensive. For Golems I'd say they are a decent analog to modern automation. They are very expensive to make (in both materials and skill/time of a highly trained wizard), their programming when doing complex tasks is also complex and testing it to make sure they don't do bad things is also expensive. A very important point is the material cost. Yes in the books it's said 10k 50k or whatever gold coin monetary amount. But that does not automatically those materials are available in an infinite amount to anybody that has the coin to buy. A middle-age-ish society has A LOT LESS access to materials, because there is less people and less trade and less technology and less everything. Iron was not commonplace or "cheap". So can you theoretically make a golem farm worker? yes. Can you make enough to replace the peons in any reasonable time scale? Probably not. Is it cheap and reliable as just having a peon in indentured servitude? Usually not. Now if there is a farmer shortage because they flee, get eaten, are too depressed to make kids so their numbers drop, then it might make more sense to start Golem-izing the farming, but even then it will be slow. In a way, Golems follow the same logic as magic users. Why aren't all jobs done by wizards? Because they are relatively rare and expensive to train, so their time is too valuable to have one dude run around spamming Prestidigitation to clean the castle. Yes you can have a process start where slowly over decades there is a change and then eventually you end up where everybody is a wizard and golems do every menial task and the janitor is spamming Prestidigitation to clean the school's toilets. But that's something that will happen on a longer time scale like in the real world with automation. For undead the main limitation afaik was the control limit per necromancer, as undead don't really take programming and if they are not under necrodaddy's control they revert to feral.

[@hanzzel6086]

It could still happen. You just need the right place and conditions. Ex: A kingdom of stoneminers and masons magical ruler discovers a way to make stone golems without any gems/other rare materials and decides to make as many as he (and his apprentices) can.

[@mikewaterfield3599]

Given how difficult they are to make and their inability to handle more than rudimentary orders? No. Basic undead could ruin the need for base labor in things like mines though.

[@zahylon5993]

Zombies / Skeletons won't die due poison gas in mines. Liches are lord in mining business

[@anvos658]

@@zahylon5993 I'd say the geomancer is the lord, since they can have the valuable metals, minerals, crystals, and what not come to them.

[@badMATTER14]

So, my main question in your workplace replacement videos is how are these rulers getting the funds to pay necro and golem-mancers if there is no lower class to tax? If they don't have jobs, how are they passing taxes and rent to live on noble land?

[@heitorpedrodegodoi5646]

I think the use of golems and undead is a self defeating question, majority of people woulndt want their families being bound to a necromancer working until their carcass is unusable, the golem is just expensive with correct materials, being made cheap and dumb it cant do much work other humans can do.

[@marcogenovesi8570]

Taxes are needed if you don't directly own it already. Rulers would just get direct income. Lower classes would not exist (nor need to exist) if all the menial labor is done by skeletons or golems or automatons. Everybody is a land owner or a businness owner or some form of craftsman

[@jasonfurumetarualkemisto5917]

​@@marcogenovesi8570 For a world with magic that still seems like a rather fairy-tale ending.

[@Derkosson]

@@jasonfurumetarualkemisto5917 It's not that everyone becomes a land owner or a businness owner or some form of craftsman, it's that everyone who isn't starves and dies out.

[@Cosmic_K13]

​@@jasonfurumetarualkemisto5917The way I see it, you would have kings that hire Necromancer and artificers to buy and manage old battlefields and mines respectively. All the materials they need to have functionally infinite labor is built into their land.

[@thactotum]

This applies to Skeletons, zombies, homonculi, etc. In some cases what the differences between a bone golum, and skeletons, or flesh gollum and zombie, frankenstiens monster, homonculi (either in the style of real world alchemist stoires, or pop culture version), automatons, robots, androids and things like war forged... it's all a bit fuzzy. There are lots of constructed entites in my home world. from the flesh golem type creations of the Andlang Fey empire, the stone and crystal constructs of the Dvergr factions, and altered animals (uplifted in a way similar to the fictional Doctor Moreau) of the Gnisse commonwealth. And there are some questions about where the animating life forces of each of them comes from, and whether they share overlap with the human tribes spirit bound objects, or the A'lohmon mongeli (familiars), and whatever secrets the lost Mer empires once had.

[@carsonm7292]

Folks interested in this should definitely take an afternoon to read Rossum's Universal Robots, the play that coined the term "robot", if they haven't already. It explores a lot of these very same themes.

[@fern1009]

I think golems are a great investment for rich fantasy civilizations that feel the need to maintain an armed force at all times. A regiment of regular soldiers takes time to muster, but a squad of golems can be activated and sent into battle with a mage handler in a fraction of the time. And since golems last darn near forever with little maintenance, it is a long-term investment that will outlast any peaceful age. Obviously you still need foot soldiers, but golems can be readily deployed in peace time and form an armored core during war time.

[@KevinWarburton-tv2iy]

Golems will be heavy infantry shock troops in vanguard to soak up enemy fire and smash into lines with humans/humanoids coming behind the protective moving wall of the Golems. Golems would the ones carrying the Rams to the Gates. No threat from boiling water or oil or fire or arrows. Once the gate or wall is breached then come the hummans/humanoids.

[@zahylon5993]

Fact is that you can simply make a tetrapod golem and use it as a living wagon for supplies. Their immense utility in supply lines makes them far more valuable than using them for CQC. You just shaved the implied logistics of keeping horses healthy and feed. Just use golems for equipment transportation and you'll wage a medieval blitzkrieg. just picture this, a large spider-like golem carrying all the heavy equipment and food means your army can keep moving 24/7. Other armies might need to rest down their horses, but your golems keep pulling the wagons.

[@Immopimmo]

I like the golems of Discworld. Feet of clay is a good read! :)

[@hanzzel6086]

It really is.

[@josephperez2004]

I mostly got my info from Going Postal. A Clay Golem could manage labor in all manner of ways that would be impossible for living humans. Slow yes, but consistent and with little need for anything such as food, rest, or even air.

[@GoranXII]

@@josephperez2004 And almost immortal. Anghammarad was almost 19,000 years old.

[@josephperez2004]

I assume the reason the Manual of Golems is a one use item similar to the reasoning behind scrolls being consumable. That apparently some degree of magic is invested in the item and that magic is expended in the golem creation process.

[@ethanhunstiger4868]

Someone working in a warehouse can use a forklift, maybe even fix one, but not make one. Golems would likely be a kind of heavy equipment, expensive but very useful.

[@CallMeTess]

if golems begin to replace þe basic workforce needed to produce necessities to survival, said necessities become entirely free to obtain, so it wouldn't actually do as much harm as you say-- unemployment wouldn't be an issue if employment isn't required for survival.

[@sirgideonofnir6840]

When it comes to warfare, I think of Eberon and the Warforged, but despite the similarities, they are very different.

[@marcusaaronliaogo9158]

Yeah warforged are more like synthetic lifeforms while golems are standard robots

[@Telleryn]

It would be nice if, in a scenario where a city state or kingdom had a bunch of non-living servants able to carry out all the hard work and provide a surplus of food, a wise leader could just share out enough of the results of that work to their people to keep them happy and let them pursue personal projects, and make the place one of art and innovation (basically Star Trek)

[@torva360]

Then maybe we'd get the Rat Utopia, where many people are either listless or completely insane because they have no real work to accomplish.

[@jonathanfenton8695]

I think people forget that money in a medieval world is far more finite. Creating a single golem would bankrupt kingdoms.

[@williamjanak2013]

I can see them working on ways to make them easier and cheaper to make. Great video as always.

[@thekaxmax]

that gets you Warforged. :P

[@llamatronian101]

Straw golems. Cheap, expendable, surprisingly scary. Edit: hay golems. They don't do anything except walk, but by being self-mobile horse fodder they extend an army's range considerably.

[@styxriverr5237]

We found a lovely 3rd party Golem called Tin Soldiers. They where well exactly what it says on the Tin, but they had two features which greatly boosted how dangerous they where. Formation fighting and 1d10 magic gun. Well we had to sacrfice them to get away from a superior foe, however me and the other Artifcer (we made these for another party member at their request.) Smashed our brains together and I came up with Woodmen essentially upsized Wooden versions of the Tiny Tin boiz. Cost a bit more due to needing more materials to arm and armor them, but once done they looked like any other person in scale mail with a full veiled helmet. Armed with bayonetted Magelocks (magic firearm (reskinned easier to use wand)) and a few others with sabers and we had effective if rather stupid goons. Helped with our lack of tanky people in the party. Forgot to mention the armor's primary purpose was not to protect them but to hide the fact they where just made of wood.

[@justsomejerseydevilwithint4606]

In my setting, to not spoil it, all magic item creation is expensive and time-consuming. As such, no one really bothers to make a Golem very often, powerful wizards making them for basic tasks, or guilds commissioning them when they are prosperous to perform a task for the guild indefinitely, like opening or closing large gates or guarding specific locations, but they are rare.

[@michaelsandy2869]

Golems are certainly powerful, but they are limited by requiring the extended employment of high level casters, which are quite rare. Low level spells like Shape Water are likely to be ubiquitous, and useless you have ALL magic greatly restricted it is potentially a very powerful energy source. Get 30 level 1 casters with Mold Earth and they could build a wide road almost at walking speed. Or dig a canal or any other significant pure earth moving structure. Unseen Servant cast as a ritual allows a level 1 caster to do the work of 6 quite readily. Mold Earth can nearly instantly shaped pots that can be then fired to permanently hold their shape. If players which to merely restrict themselves to dungeon delving, such minutiae of magic in industry and economy do not really matter. But if they become artificer or otherwise wish to shape the world by using magic the GM has to seriously think about what spells are widely known and what the effects would be.

[@bitterzombie]

Sometimes I run single player campaigns, and I like to provide those characters with a golem sidekick early on. Usually stick a room in the first dungeon that is a failed golem laboratory, with all the components available and the previous researcher laying dead at his desk next to his notes. I like to provide this early in game to help lone characters have a simple but loyal companion, and play it out in a number of ways. Often the golem only lives long enough for the player to get attached, making their death more meaningful. If that doesnt happen, it allows me to play the golem in a variety of ways, either becoming overzealous in its protective duties, or alternatively, gaining too much individuality, & becoming confused about the nature of its existence. Essentually making the golem a reliable early game "assistant", that becomes increasingly unreliable the more that the player relies on them.

[@helixxharpell]

In Khor the first golems was crafted from titanium by the sons of Loygrin to guard the great forge of his name. 14 in number they were. Such automatons stood 22 feet tall and each wielding the Axes, hammers & spears that were left at the start of the 1st migration. It is said that they understood well over 100 words & sounds. Such a sight it was to see their greatness in those days.

[@mllhild]

One point that is often overlooked is how the golem is fueled. If it goes via ambient magic, then its pretty easy to shut it down. Magic core base ones are a bit harder there. Best way to deal with a golem is usually just to dig a deep it and bait it to fall into the trap. Then collapse the pit on it, sealing all its movement.

[@AlexFoobar104]

The nature of labor is a very underdeveloped aspect of DnD. Great to see somebody putting so much thought into it. (Same with the undead video) :)

[@larstollefsen1236]

This is likely one of your best videos! Pretty much sums up most of what could make golems interesting.

[@erikvale3194]

This kinda relies entirely on Hebrew golems, bot dnd options. It becomes clear early on but makes it less applicable to dnd. It's also worth considering things holistically, how they could interact with other things (Imagine a Golem with orders to obey the magic mouth computer on its back), and consider that magic items don't suffer mechanical breakdowns.

[@davidgab4448]

How exactly did you manage to discuss usage of golems in fantasy setting without referencing "Feet of clay" by Sir Terry Pratchett?

[@justsomejerseydevilwithint4606]

14:20 If golems are made of clay, a clay cutting wire hung between two buildings before one patrols would be effective sabotage indeed.

[@dangerbeans9639]

Fun idea: put skeletons in clay masks and armor and you have the illusion of golems. In a world where necromancy exists, animated human skeletons would most likely dominate the market by sheer scale of economy. However, I imagine that Golem technology would improve and subpar, more economical golems would eventually come into wider use in some of the more wealthy areas.

[@xzardas541]

I see golems as a symbol of status, like a swiss guards of vatican or royal guards of british king, sure they can fight, and are powerfull military force but are far to precious and expensive do be used for such things. Glorious examples of magical and/or mechanical engineering that are far too expesive and extravagant to risk thier destruction so in the end they end up serving as glorified coat rack im mages study. As for "standard" clay golems that are cheap to make, have you ever hired programer to make literaly any kind of job for you no matter how simple? Cause this is what mages/priests capable of making golems are, programers and those guys are expensive. And since golems programing is stored on scrolls(or any other storage medium like Hardwood Disk) they need to be repaired and updated, and once you need to update kingdom worth of golems? Then you either need tons of mages who are expensive as hell or tons of interns who are incompetent as hell, and no matter with one you choose there is bound to be at least single typo in the program eventualy as you do not have luxury of taking months to check everything over and over for bugs as there is 100 models of golems that need updates and deadline is tomorow morning, And then we end up with neighbouring kingdoms making fun of you when you golems start walking into walls, and bards singing mockingly: "It just works, it just works!" At this point it would be easier and cheaper to just use underpaid workers like during industrial revolution.

[@baconboi4482]

That would be a reason for why they usually serve as wizard tower guards and royal guards. The royals and wizards are just flexing with really powerful guards

[@thekaxmax]

GURPS Technomancer has armour steel and titanium golems for war. Pretty well immune to smallarms and grenades, v scary.

[@tuckerkaup]

Im making a world that is about golems, and to counteract the drain they could do is maintenance is costly and there is a single organization that has the whole monopoly on the creation and maintenance of Golems, I also have it where Golems need break days (harkeming back to the sabbath) because if they work during their break day they could break their programing and go nuts

[@zhcultivator]

why aren't there more archaeological explorations done in fantasy worlds and stories?

[@Kligor2]

Now I really wanna see a world where Golems were the near extinction of sapient people or maybe they WERE the destruction of civilization. The remnants of their bodies long without the magic that sustained them dotting the land as mysterious constructs of the ancient past that pushed people back to the stone age. Long enough to forget what they knew beforehand. So players see these large humanoid figures and maybe find a cult dedicated to reviving them or even finding a pristine one that needs to be activated. Just some sorta ancient apocalypse kinda deal

[@Anyone00TZ]

You focus on the serfs revolting but medieval guilds are very protective of their turf; so much so they are willing to hire thugs and mercenaries.

[@erikvale3194]

Because the golems threaten 'unskilled' labour more. Sure, there's no such thing as actually unskilled labour, just ones with various difficulties to automate, but it's easier to replace a group of farmers with some corpses, a necromancer, and one farmer, than it is to replace expert craftsmen.

[@tatarchan5212]

Oh boy!!! Guess what, in my work golems​ are mass produced in industrial grade kiln. Come in mostly vaguely humanoid size made from hardened clay and controlled by witches and magic user who learn kabbalah. Let's say that they do every hard labour under the sun from wood cutting, stone mining, hunting, fishing, farming and the best of all, terrorising the witch's enemies. Usually by using shotgun and bomb.

[@michaelsandy2869]

Golem labor has to compete with other labor. They represent a huge amount of capital investment, compared to, say, ritual cast Unseen Servant. A golem would likely do the same task very powerfully for years at a time. But Unseen Servants would be a much more agile magical labor force. The individual Unseen Servants would be much weaker, and would do tasks for an hour at a time. A 1st level wizard ritually casting Unseen Servant would be the labor equivalent of lower management. And as such they would have very different interests from the more capital intensive golem industry. I imagine that the Unseen Servant summoning guilds would compete with the necromancers who would compete with the elemental summoners, the golem crafters and other exotic methods. And each group would propagandize on behalf of their method of serving a society and slandering the others.

[@tuomasronnberg5244]

Golems and Unseen Servants need also to compete with human labor. While humans need pesky things like food and shelter, they are very, very cheap, and what's best is that they produce more humans on their own. If you replace the humans with a rapidly procreating species like kobolds, then you have a very cost effective competitor to magical labor. And, if you are an evil empire that doesn't mind working its slaves to death then you can always raid your weaker neighbors for more. Let them shoulder the costs of raising children while you reap the rewards! That also has the added benefit of keeping your neighbors in economic disadvantage and unable to fight you off effectively, thus perpetuating the system.

[@michaelsandy2869]

@@tuomasronnberg5244 In my campaign, one of the underlying conflicts is between "Old Guilds" which exclusively rely on mundane craftsmanship, and "New Guilds" which include magic to make it cheaper and faster. Theoretically, the craftsmen have more skill and can produce a higher quality product, but if they are directly competing with magic they make take shortcuts to make things faster and therefore produce lower quality themselves. And a finely tuned magic assisted crafting line can, as it make a large number of things consistently, develop consistent quality, at least. And there are status things involved too. A noble may employ a large number of humanoid servants, even though Unseen Servants would be cheaper, because those employed retainers also double as guards, militia etc... When magic is rare, doing things may be a status thing of its own, but as it becomes plentiful, well, lobster was once a food exclusively for servants because it was so cheap. An available campaign theme is can the party help guide the fantasy world to a magical industrialized one while avoiding at least some of the pitfalls experienced in our own, or just exploit it to become rich and powerful and influential.

[@marcogenovesi8570]

I personally don't think it's "realistic" or "beliavable" to have rulers just crank out thousands of highly expensive and complicated Golems at such a pace where they can just replace everyone else and then punch them in the face if they revolt. What made them so cheap and simple all of a sudden. I mean sure you can do what you want but that's kind of like saying "and then a meteorite crashes and everyone dies". It's a deus ex machina moment where everything happens because you said so.

[@theprinceofawesomeness]

i mean in Pathfinder, you basically need to be a level 7 (or earliest level 5) spellcaster, to make a Junk Golem who is the cheapest of the Golems, it takes normally 6 days to create and cost 5,200 gp. the next Golem which would be a more typical, would be the Wood Golem cost 8.800 gp and take 9 days to create, both are kind of use full and useless but they have several requirements to create so there needs to be a guy in such society that knows how to create them. be the needed level with the needed requirements which is hard.

[@Draconic_Mantis]

@@theprinceofawesomeness yeah I mean using 2e prices you could make like 170 or so sets of full plate armor for the cost of a single junk golem or just under 300 suits for a wood golem. For warfare they're just kinda too expensive to be economical. For production I don't think they'd honestly be much more effective at most work than just having like ten normal guys with tools and putting them to work in most jobs could also just result in their destruction pretty easily. Like if you have a cave-in in your mines that golem is probably going to be destroyed. They'd also make for very obvious targets in a war, since their extremely high cost would make them very tempting targets. Like assuming they can replace 10 unskilled laborers who are paid 1sp per day that's still going to take a little more than 14 years to pay itself off, for what is a literal walking pile of trash. Meanwhile a wood golem would take about 24 years to pay itself off and is extremly vulnerable to just having torches, fire arrows or basic fire spells lobbed at it. Just seems like most would get destroyed pretty easily if an enemy force focused on trying to do so.

[@theprinceofawesomeness]

@@Draconic_Mantis i was using 1e prices and logic. I wanted to use it because prices are more fair than dnd5e prices and i just know 1e better than 2e Edit: should have added that my point is that Golems are expencive and ineffective. Even then you know how to reduce the cost in 1e, in a battle, a Golem is a support or symbol in the army, i been looking in to using Golems with Mass Combat and can only justify using a single ok golem (like iron)

[@Draconic_Mantis]

There is also the further point that in a serf / peasant economy you wouldn't generally even be paying your subjects anything anyway, they'd be paying taxes to you. Why replace your taxpayers / emergency levy pool with super costly automatons when it'd take years to pay itself off and probably be under the control of your court mages?

[@tuomasronnberg5244]

​@@Draconic_MantisWell, one benefit I could see is that if you can use golems to free up labor from food production, then you could funnel that excess labor into your military. Former peasants becoming full time soldiers would let you field an impressive standing army, one that doesn't need to return home for harvest.

[@jonasholm-mw5bn]

If I ever made some kind of fantasy setting, I would basically make golems motors. If you can make a bunch of clay walk around and do stuff with a human body, you could make it spin an axel in a box form. But it’s also a bit boring when a world with magic or something just turn into our current world and they don’t really make something special with their special thing. So maybe golems just change shape and replace horses and such. Why would you need a tractor if you have a golem ox. The machine parts might be build into the golem, but it would still have that animalistic shape.

[@Yoshi-Wise]

Most people don't even understand how real economies work so concerns about fantasy economies have long amused me.

[@baconboi4482]

Yeah, there’s a reason we have so many socialists

[@sidecharacter7165]

To be fair, if cheap enough Clay golems could make good trucks(delivery or supply)

[@lostbutfreesoul]

Feet of Clay is a wonderful book because of this. For any Storyteller, read some Terry Pratchett.

[@Nyrufa]

Why not inscribe them with the command prompt of: "Learn, Adapt, Evolve" - thus creating a golem with the intention that it continues to improve upon its original design?

[@expectcringe5795]

For that, though, it might think it can do something that its material just can not do.

[@baconboi4482]

Well it can do that. Unrelated, I heard you like terminator

[@tuomasronnberg5244]

This was explored in Terry Pratchett's book Feet of Clay. The golem eventually went insane because it was unable to do what it was commanded to do, unable to surpass its programming.

[@yuin3320]

That's so open ended that they would likely end up seeing organic beings as just spare parts for self edification and evolution. Definitely a _great_ origin story for rampant golems blighting the lands. I'm definitely logging that in my notes as "Plague Golems" Thanks for the inspiration, lol

[@Nyrufa]

@@yuin3320 Both the Flesh Golem and even the Brain Golem are things which exist in D&D. In the case of Flesh Golems, they're basically Frankenstein's monster. Brain Golems are an experiment devised by the Mind Flayers, and are sculpted entirely out of brain matter.

[@petersmythe6462]

As soon as a golem is able to *create* prompts, things are gonna happen very, very quickly and almost entirely outside demihuman control.

[@petersmythe6462]

And of course, most likely, a golem that gas any kind of artificial mind has natural literacy in golem script.

[@BeastGuyver]

I never understood why the awaken spell meant for animals couldn't be used on Golems. Also in a lot of my games I add Golem variants like cloth and mini golems, cloth golems would predominately used as lab assistants or house servants while mini's could be used as everything from spys to companions for noble children, Imagine a golem teddy bear.

[@tristang8929]

i implemented a system in my world with limitations on constructs that make them more unstable the more focused they are on 1 task or function because a mind needs variety and stimulation to function for prolonged periods. my party just encountered a construct that enjoys erotic baking in its free time

[@Zelda_Thorn]

me coming into this thinking, if this mfer doesn't mention iron council by china mieville EDIT: he didn't. for those curious, iron council is the third book in the bas-lag cycle and concerns golems, labor unions, and communism, broadly.

[@sidecharacter7165]

I mean a creatures’ hoards ruin economies too. That much gold introduced into a small area destroys it. My solution is to use a (very)Progressive tax system for that. Clay golems would work well for building things in ones and underwater like a deep sea welder would. Not needing to breathe and immune to non-magical damage is very helpful.

[@mrbushi1062]

I love the Golem take in Warmachine. Take a magic Golem and give it guns and hydraulics

[@TheDuelManiacs]

A lot of these themes are explored in Terry Pratchett's Feet of Clay. It's a very good book, I highly recommend it.

[@zeugenberg]

HOW did I have to scroll THAT far for this?!?!

[@TheDuelManiacs]

@@zeugenberg I am but a little man in a sea of giants

[@SymbioteMullet]

He goes further into it in Making Money.

[@L_______]

i think a way to make golems mostly balanced is that they need constant magic and a good amount so that even mages with good amount of magic couldnt control/power more than a few at ones so to make one that wouldnt need that you would need like a good amount of magic crystals making them pretty expensive so you wouldnt have them in most jobs also due to their simple natures there could be ways to make golems not attack you or comand them depending on how they target like if its voice then you could make the golems attack others by mimicing the voice making golems exploitable aka they are strong but exploitable and expensive

[@andrewlentner]

How do you calculate gold to USD?

[@Kanjejou]

It is also a question of squale most golem shown are large creations, wont medium and small golem be more squale efficient? if golem are tool, made to achieve a task they could be made more efficient than a basic laborer of the same quality, be more durable, not need rest and not need any essources (food water) to be maintained...(do they even need maintenance?) also they resist extreme conditions like freezing cold and burning heats, so for extreme biomes or condition of work like forges, magic factories, it could be super interesting. But I admit that as long as "internship" are a possibility why make golem when you can burn down laborer and get new "interns" from neighboor and poor populations to do task? also necromancoie give cheaper result, does it not?

[@alias0612]

Golem Heart is one of the few series focuses on that.

[@forteanmobius3272]

Don't overlook the weight of the golem. If you try to use them as farm equipment they will compress the soil until even their great strength could not push a plow through it.

[@KevinWarburton-tv2iy]

First golems might be a bit hefty but as technique/means of creation improves then they would become more "sporty". A man-sized creature shaped from clay & a few rocks/crystals won't be that much heavier than a big man.

[@forteanmobius3272]

OK. But then why not build them out of wood or straw? And why stick to the humanoid shape? Some sort of flying thing would not tread on the plowed land at all.

[@Kanjejou]

@@forteanmobius3272 Mostly because of the legends around golems, and cheaper simpler golem break the suspension of disbelief in a med fantasy world, but indeed you supposedly can make golem out of anything... even polenta...but back to more normal cheap golem they did exist in some other media and previous editions. usually the easy to get material for golem are: -straw, agrarian society may have a lot of it. -wood, easy to find and cut/carve -tallow close to flesh and bone but its a part that you dont always want to eat and have quite a lot of extra if oyu hunt/do husbandry. they have the pro: -of being easy to made and cheap by golem standard, only the core is really expensiv (around 5000gold), still way less expensiv than the 50k gold of high end flesh golem for other heavier golem but still not a small amount of money if you need more of them -have "normal" speed compared to their size and can even be made faster than same size humanoid, L size straw golem can reach 60ft per turn if made for speed -they are easier/faster to carve weave or craft, a bit like golemancer first golem, and failing isnt as costly, also the DD isnt as high -easy to craft mean easy to give them strange specialised design -they are light by golem standard. Usually the problem given to those golem are: -they are fragile by golem standard not being immune to non magic weapons only resilient, and all are weak to fire. -they arent as strong as other golem, straw golem start at STR 8 for M size and only go up to STR 12 for L size...Tallow str10 st14 and wood str12 str16, so why not just take a strong humanoid totdo the job? - because they arent immune to physical damage (like clay stone and iron, or high quality golem) they do get some wear and tear and they require physical maintenance and be given new "parts" which can be super easy for tallow golem (just slap some extra magic tallow) or require carving for wood or weaving for straw. I also require a golemancer to work on that maintenance, if you have enough golem it could be a full time job to maintain them... Those golem are almost closer to homonculy that cna do work for their maker than classical golem. those golem I just pit there ar old editions "utility" golem and thus arent made as strudy or costly as "war/protection/gardian" golem and also they require a "master" to guide them Also see that most golem in 5ed dnd are high quality "WAR" stuff that cost around 75k gold (for wood ) and are stronger STR19 slower (20ft/turn) and have the same immunity as all golem (immune to non magic poisona nd stuff) except fire weakness. Dnd5 decided to ignore all low quality/cheap golem to avoid breakignt heir univers. because if "cheap" inexhaustible labor exist why have farmer that toil and die int he field...? another reason why i try to not think too much about it because even cantrip level of magic item could help entire villages in economising time and labor and have better life...thus would not look like a "normal" medieval era at all... "control/mold water "could allow to make a washing machine, "Mold Earth" allow people to dig big stuff easily, and "mage hand" allow to not break you back or legs moving stuff around all day long, and mending would remove most work formt eh balcksmith/weaver/craftsmans sicne everythign would be easy to repair.

[@angrytheclown801]

The only two golems suited for factory work would be the Clay and Flesh golems. I don't see something breathing Cloudkill working in a factory. But with the clay and flesh golems comes a nasty tendency to go berzerk. Even the least Osha minded evil wizard wants to avoid their equipment and stock destroyed regularly. You want to destroy a local economy, Unseen Servant is your go to.

[@alpacaofthemountain8760]

Absolutely amazing work! Also consider this: What happens when golems start making other golems?

[@markusbarten455]

The idea of Golems being limited by how expensiv they are and how hard they are to make is good, which leaves the question of when a single expensiv superhumanly strong worker with limitless endurance is better than several normal ones. Which leaves tasks that that need to be performed 24/7 and require enourmus effort like operating pump and pushing minecarts.

[@endymionselene165]

What about the Warforged?

[@thekaxmax]

that's a well-scripted golem mass-manufactured on a golem forge (hugely expensive, but each item it makes is pretty cheap), that collectively woke up.

[@qinop]

I like how a cabal/coven/cotorie of level 1 warlocks/sorcerers/wizards with firebolt/EB can rush down a golem Range 120 feet Speed 20 No immunity to fire

[@XX-sp3tt]

18:31 I find it nonsensical from the fact D&D is a SIMULATION fantasy, meaning options for PCs and NPCs should be IDENTICAL.

[@bendowling522]

Also see Terry Pratchett’s book feet of clay.

[@PvtSchlock]

In past editions of D&D you are talking like 15th level creators. These clerics and magicians needed a specific manual and were like 0.1% of the population.

[@Psydw1nder]

Imagine an army of golems turning a collection of huge electric generators. Golems are better than nuclear, solar, or any kind of energy generator. Imagine incorporating golems into space-faring vehicles as an inexhaustible energy source.

[@karlgrimm3027]

In the later disk world books golems became the bases for money

[@brandon8667]

Only if the means of golem production is held by a marginal few. The people need to size that means and become liberated through automation

[@asahearts1]

The Japanese light novel (and manga) Lazy Dungeon Master makes heavy use of this. A guy from our world sees the potential of golems and really abuses the heck out of it. Everyone else thinks golems are dumb because they do exactly what you tell them to. 😂

[@sharksam8583]

And as soon as he figures out the golems don't have to be humanoid That's when the floodgates open I remember 1 time In the manga they're In the manga they're fighting A different dungeon And they're kind of confused on why they've only been seen golems And what makes it funny is that they don't know that most of the traps In the dungeon Are also golems

[@asahearts1]

@@sharksam8583 My favorite was the maze of walls which rearrange themselves 😂

[@sharksam8583]

And when they were dealing with it They were like this has to cost 50,000 dp at least Well unknown to them the entire maze is basically free

[@asahearts1]

@@sharksam8583 That's great stuff. Keima has one of my favorite power sets of all time. He might not be the most powerful in fiction, especially straight out of the box, but the stuff he can do is all the kinds of stuff I would want to do, and he has decent power potential. I honestly think about LDM almost daily for the past 6-7 years, especially in the context of isekai into other settings. If you can get the DP catalog, that would be an amazing choice for isekai cheat, imo. Maybe a little behind Noir's abilities in The Hidden Dungeon Only I Can Enter.

[@sharksam8583]

@@asahearts1 My personal hunch is that the dp catalog is the best kind of power for Smarter people Because your only really constrained by your creativity and your resources. keima Is pretty much the epitome of the phrase, work smarter, not harder. Primarily Because he is a lazy Son of a gun A good chunk of the stuff he makes with the create golem spell can basically be summarized as I am not from this world. Therefore, I will ignore what you think of As common sense One example I could think of is making a quadcopter drone using this spell.

[@michaelzautner4848]

I feel like you're vastly underestimating how much companies and governments would be very happy to pay that $5 mil price tag for golems. Actual tanks cost a couple times that much and the US has something like 5k of them or more (Very rough numbers). That could be 10,000 soldiers which are immune to gunfire and explosives (non-magical attacks) and don't have to put human lives at risk. Not a direct replacement or anything, but the possibilities a general or commander could create with something like that are myriad. In the civilian sector, yeah, they might be a bad replacement for fork lifts at a price of about 100 of them, but there is a lot of very expensive equipment that could potentially be replaced by golems, with the golems being much more versatile. Suddenly don't need massive machine X any more? Guess you'll have to sell it for next to nothing and buy a new machine Y. But with a Golem? You just give it a new set of instructions and it is 100% transferable. And if you need to liquidate, golems would retain their value very well because of how interchangeable they are, and usable in a large range of applications. It isn't a large point of your video or anything though, so not a big deal, but given the massive investments being made in autonomous robots that would be very similar to a golem...

[@UnswimmingFishYT]

My answer to golems and their potentially problematic nature is just to nerf them a few ways and make them more accessible. I'd prefer the golem function this way: First the maker needs materials, whatever type is appropriate for the golem being made, then they need to construct it and prepare it for animation. To animate the golem, one needs some kind of special magic item comparable to soul gems in TES. Make this item accessible enough for typical wizards to get it, but costly enough to make it less affordable than just buying a suit of armor, meaning the golem's total components are somewhat expensive but still a good investment. Then once animated by a magic ritual, the golem is fully ready to do it's job. It's durability should depend mainly on it's body's material, iron golems being far tougher than ones made from mud, clay, or flesh, or even bone, which I think should be an option. Let golemancers use the collected bones of some animals to build a servant, combining pieces to get the desired shape and separate it from just being necromancy. Once completed, it's other attributes also should vary by material, with metal or stone golems being slower than clay or bone golems. In order to prevent the golems being a threat to economies or anything, have them limited to only simple commands from their makers. If the golemancer dies, the golem remains bound to it's last orders until complete, no matter how long that might take. If a golemancer specifies, others can order it as well, but this must be told to the golem in advance, and it always defers to it's maker. If the golem has no remaining masters and no orders left, it becomes dormant and doesn't move unless destroyed or animated again by another person who must use the magic component to restart the golem. This set of basic rules makes golems more useable for characters who aren't just rich, prevents their most problematic issues, and limits them enough not to be overpowered while still being very useful if given the right job and constructed properly to handle it. They also remain a dangerous enemy in the case of more durable ones, but if someone knows the golem's exact orders, they can find loopholes where it won't stop them. Example: a golemancer tells his minion "don't let any intruders into this area, and kill them if they enter." Someone knowing this could still attack that area from a distance and the golem's orders wouldn't allow it to stop them as they aren't trying to enter. Dumb golems are better, don't make them overly expensive, and the body material should almost entirely dictate how it works. A golem made from flesh is far more believable if axes can damage it, but iron golems would take heavy stonefalls or a good hit from tougher metals to hurt it. One made from stone also gets a lot less dexterity and flexibility than one made with bones strapped together, which naturally has joints.

[@ubcroel4022]

What about flesh golems?

[@baconboi4482]

I can see flesh and clay golems being the most common

[@josephperez2004]

The Flesh Golem is roughly the idea behind Frankenstein's monster.

[@etherealceleste]

Since when do golems have infinite energy?

[@RockOfLions]

I prefer to deal with golems as religious creatures powered by the deity. The golem of Prague had the name of the deity written on the scroll in his head and the word of truth on its forehead. The rabbi needed to remove it so the three golem would not work on shabbat and break the law. This is not a creature that can be conjured from a spell book but one that is conjured by faith and holy ritual. If it breaks the law, the penalty comes on its creator because the creator had his servant break shabbat, not upon the golem. It was created as a projector of the people not as a common soldier. It was destroyed when the word of truth was effaced becoming death.

[@frantisekvrana3902]

Eh, if you want cheap labor, skeletons are the go-to creature. They are cheaper than golems per unit and are less prone to Second Law Rebellion (following orders too literaly), and are easier to destroy if needed. And in either case, you only get unskilled labor. I only see a reason to use Golems instead in dangerous circumstances. For combat or for stuff that would destroy beings of bone. 11:20 Fire is basically the only option a regular person would have. However, Golems in D&D are expensive. 65 000 gp for a clay golem, and no RaW way to repair them should they somehow get damaged. Plus, they still have a tendency to go berserk if under half HP.

[@lightwings9042]

Bro i love ur philophy aproach tô fantasy.

[@maxwellhorne5965]

Haven't watched the whole video yet but if he doesn't mention the "golem reserve" of Discworlds signature metropolis Imma be sad. What bloody book was that...

[@zahylon5993]

Golems wouls, "realisitcally" be the combustion engines of a fantasy world, kicking industralization into orbit. Picture an engine, just a cilinder with a gear/pivot sticking out, now...make an Iron Golem in such shape, it only needs to follow ONE directive; "spin the gear as fast as this lever tells you to do" ...now you have a pseudo-engine. Fueled by Mana instead of Gas. Such Golem-Engine will become the Car, the Mill, the Tractor and many other machines. Soon you'll have tanks, planes, battleships. The transmission won't need to be magical, but mechanical, only the Golem-Engine is magical, simply refueled by pouring a mana potion into the "fuel" compartment. So simple even your average soldier can do it. The Future of Warfare

[@nojaodoggo2896]

Only cast the right spell and golem is done, in a world full of magic, posibilities are almost unlimited

[@stephenlucas8836]

18:31 and that is if you steal someone else hard work making that Manual of Golem Craft. Imagine who much work it took to make the book in the first place

[@Nanitefox]

Pathfinder has some of this stuff and u didn't talk about the warforged

[@fleetcenturion]

Not just golems, but the abundance of magic in general ruins fantasy economics. Bringing "life" to something lifeless should require a phenomenal feat of magical prowess. Magical items, services, and literal miracles cannot simply be treated as commonplace. The average person in a fantasy world (even in "high fantasy") would likely never encounter such a feat of magic within their lifetime. This is why magical items shouldn't be sold openly, as if they were household appliances!

[@geophrie8272]

Id see them more as system like FPGAs rather then cpus or general computers

[@gothicshark]

So I suppose you have read "Feet of Clay" by Terry Pratchett.

[@tomfoolery-4444]

Are angels just... fancy golems?

[@ProjectEchoshadow]

Can a golem be programmed to create golems, does this lead inevitably into a sentient race comparable to any other rather than mere automatons?

[@wagz781]

On a positive note: Those kinds of tyranical rulerships tend to collapse. Without a lower class to tax or spend money, there's not really any profits to be made. It's why our current economic trajectory is untenable. It'll definitely get worse before it gets better, though.

[@rynowatcher]

Historically, the steam engine was around in hellenistic Greece and the light bulb was around in the Middle Kingdom period in Egypt. They never caught on because they were costly to produce and all economies were agricultural based and you always had surfs, slaves, or peasants working your land that you can press into doing whatever you wanted. I think golems would not be seen as practical as you would be paying 5 million dollars to give your workers time off. You could only plant so much of the land and peasants kept that going for you in a long running, tried, and stable system. It also kept the peasants busy, which cuts down on uprisings. A lot of historians have written a lot of books about why an industrial revolution did not happen under Greek, Roman, and Chisese imperial rule because they had the technology, but only used it for amusements. Golems in d&d are a very poorly defined topic because that was meant to be a topper event you did at 20+ level or at high level play. BECMI d&d had a lot more rules for making golems and had more types of constructs, but they were all stand ins for tanks, the same way a fireball is a grenade and a lightning bolt is a ballista just called something different. I say that to say there are some kind of life span for a golem and some sort of power source; they are just not brought up in the rules because it is a mini fighting game. The same reason they do not talk about how they treat athletes foot or indigestion, even though these are probably real problems to people living in the world, but they make pointless factors in your mini game. Last, I will throw it out there that magic would probably not develop along all paths equally, as d&d does. By that, I mean the presence of a golem in common use would probably change how magic was developed; they may not see a point to working out a magic missile spell if they can make arrow golems that change their shape to hit a target, shield may not exist if you have a golem shield arm that follows you around. Fireball might not exist if you have an artillery golem that can chuck rocks and such.

[@thekaxmax]

Heron's engine had no possible power takeoff, it was a toy. Although the concept could be extended it would take work--in a culture of the educated avoiding any actual work. No light bulb in egypt, no way to power it. It's an artistic depiction, not a picture of a device. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dendera_light

[@rynowatcher]

@@thekaxmax they had several steam engines, just not practical. You are referring to the toy that was common, but they have recovered artifacts and drawing of actual, working modles; mostly from toys or fascination. There are historica instances of seige engines from mideval europe, china, and india also used combustion, steam, and even gun powder to break barriers. They were thought impractical. The light bulb in ancient Egypt was a turn crank; people figured out spinning magnets enduced a voltage fir quire a while but it was a party trick. This was scientists throwing sparks at filament to make a light without an idea of what was possible; I am not saying they had 1,000,000 hour bulbs mass produced by ge and hooked to a power grid. My point is they had the technology, just did not see a point in paying a guy a year's salary to figure how how to make something they had no idea could work. You also have hundreds if instances of wind or water wheels that were used for nothing but milling flour or salt when you can have a factory whenever you have that level of technology. You did not have industrialization till you had a consumer based economy with capital to buy your produced goods and secure enough mass trasit of freight to reliably deliver it, though. Like I said, hundreds of professional scholarships have written about this topic, if you want to read on the topic.

[@thekaxmax]

@@rynowatcher Nope. The toy is the only version. Got references saying otherwise? also, got references for the siege engines? Got references for the existence of an electric generator? I've read on the topic, and I haven't seen anything of what you mention outside conspiracy theorist ramblings with no documentation or evidence.

[@rynowatcher]

@@thekaxmax I am not doing research for you; based on the fact that you are citing Wikipedia as a source, I am going to say that you probably have not looked as deeply into the topic as you think. If you are happy you know all there is to know, let us agree to disagree. I will say it a third time: the subject of why an industrial revolution did not happen earlier and historical development of technology is a topic that has hundreds of scholar written papers and books. You will find no shortage of information on the topic if you look. It is a dense topic and a lot of things were developed, not disclosed, and abandoned because no one saw a practical use for it. It is a quite common story.

[@thekaxmax]

@@rynowatcher I just told you I've done the research, and I haven't found what you mention, not in 50+ years of interest in such things. So, it's your job to point me in the right direction. Go to it.

[@xtsdagger6956]

Not sure that Zombies would be much different, given your thesis

[@anvos658]

You pretty much answered why golems don't replace economies, they have such a high upfront cost, requiring highly skilled and usually rare labor that they won't be buildable in such a high umbers to have the same end result as industrialization, and at best tend end up merely replacing simple manual labor. Not to mention without specific D&D rules their general still destroyable or vulnerable to their handler being killed.

[@arcticpossi_schw1siantuntija42]

Minecraft iron golems are protectors of their communities and creators. They're textbook golems, but they are made of iron rather than clay

[@ninjabreadman22]

Economics in a universe where people can consistently create infinite energy is a complete farce. The reason the books burn is the same reason wizards live in towers away from society. It preserves the sense of wonder about magic. When you reign it in and involve it in systems that are attempting to make sense of everything, you not only dispense of the original point in storytelling, you also have to bring into question your own biases about how societies function. Profit is not necessary for societies or campaigns in D&D. Gold, diamonds, and gems are valuable for the purposes of staving off dragons, crafting golems, and reviving the dead. It's not a labor economy at all, it's a monster economy, so you have to approach the idea of economics entirely differently than thinking about an industrial economy. Scarcity is simply not a thing when you have even the slightest amount of magic if it's open source. If magic isn't open source, then the manual of golems burns away as the knowledge within is seared upon the mind of the reader. In the scenario where magic IS open source however, there is no need to even speculate on some sort of labor economy as people are not wanting for food, shelter, or even simple creature comforts. Everyone would be living like the shire. If you don't want this, then magic has to be wondrous and mysterious. Well kept secrets by powerful and inscrutable people who cloister themselves away in far reaches as not to be bothered by the simple folk. In the shire scenario, it's easy to create conflict through an outside threat, and the lack of weapons. A single rogue golem would pose a grave threat to civilization as the citizens know it. With a lack of combat spells and weaponry, and golems being largely immune to magic, you wouldn't need the political quandaries as the threat would be imminent, and the conflict twofold if the golem has nascent sentience. In a more mysterious world, it would probably serve its purpose as a laborer for an elderly wizard whose last apprentice ventured off decades ago. Either way, the economics of the situation are a nonissue. Not because that isn't interesting, but simply because it isn't logical when you look into it further.