Fantasy Cults Are Pathetic

Nearly every fantasy cult is headed by a sinister leader, obsessed with blood, or death, or returning some ancient, long-forgotten evil. Why must this be the case? Surely we can do better? After all, it's not like there's a shortage of strange religious movements in our world, right?
#dnd #fantasy #worldbuilding #cults #religion
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[@Dominator150395]

I think there's an important distinction between fantasy and real life, which explains why fantasy cults usually lack a charismatic leader: the gods themselves. IRL, the existence of gods is... still a mater of conjecture, to put it diplomatically. The charismatic leader is the central figure of the cult as a stand-in for the deity, and they can only derive their power by acting or speaking on their behalf. If the deity could act directly, the leader's position would be that much weaker. Instead, the cultists are kept in line with the promise of an eternal reward in the next life, or at the prophesized end of days. Meanwhile, fantasy gods are demonstrably real, their influence regularly manifests as bolts of 1d10+CHA Force damage, and the end of days will come in 3-5 business days if the cult completes its dark ritual.

[@ivancaravaca6680]

Problem is that this deities might be tied to their influence, as in, their power and even their existance might dwindle if they aren't worshipped. So, that would not only cause problems between gods, since there might be complots among the gods to try to destroy the faith of another god to usurp their place. So, I think it would be in this fantasy gods' best interest to have this charismatic people that spread their word in order to avoid such fate.

[@Dominator150395]

@@ivancaravaca6680 That makes perfect sense, but there's still a vital difference: In your example, the charismatic person's main goal is to increase the influence and reach of their own deity. While IRL, the charismatic leader only aims to increase his own power and influence. These are still two fundamentally different approaches. For example, in your scenario the missionaries would benefit from there being more of them, since they're all serving the same deity, while an IRL cult leader would not appreciate the competition.

[@rich63113]

​@@Dominator150395"fantasy gods are demonstrably real" In most fantasy settings, *Magic* is demonstrably real - gods are not. The vast majority of the population in, say Forgotten Realms - has no way to differentiate between the source of a cleric's magic and a sorceror's. They've never seen a god directly acting - and don't really have any way to distinguish between gods and say, a high level wizard, except that the wizard is more present. I think a lot of it is just companies like WoTC actively trying to avoid real world religious parallels because they bother a chunk of the community and that hurts sales. You'll notice that there are a lot more published adventures about demons and devils trying to destroy the prime material plane - and very few about celestials - when celestials are just as much a threat in the dnd cosmology. Absolute order is bad for life.

[@SirRebrl]

@@Dominator150395 If the gods are prone to favoritism, then their charismatic leaders could still be motivated against each other - but in a more interesting, subtle fashion. ie, to maintain and grow _their own_ power as granted by their god and followers, they have to be their god's favorite. Competing leaders may pull the god's favor away, which they don't want because they have competing interest between their god's power and their own. But if they openly undermine each other they may anger their god, so they have to be cunning in their infighting. People are not unknown to work against a better world in favor of having a more superior position for themselves just relative to others, because how people assess their own best interest is not optimally rational.

[@Puzzles-Pins]

​@rich63113 In a setting like DnD they are demonstrably real to their worshipers though. While a sorcerer could run a cult of personality as a charlatan pretending divine power, anyone in a real cult that rises to the level of cleric will get magic by praying to their God. Which would make 'realistic' cults harder to pull off, as any smart devoted follower would be asking 'when am I getting my own powers?' and perhaps leave for a more generous patron because the cult 2 towns over their cousin joined is apparently producing actual results already.

[@ggdynfytugfy6892]

There’s an argument to be made that abandoning society to worship any god(but especially an evil one) would be enough of a break from social norms to count as a cult(in a fantasy context anyway) (There’s also a second argument to be made that worshiping an evil god *at all* would count as enough of a break from social norms to count as a cult, but I think that one’s less solid)

[@malcolmdarke5299]

I think that, at least in the context of D&D, some of the evil gods on offer might attract worship through fear. Hextor, for instance, is the god of tyranny, and attempting to survive the attention of a marauding warlord from an area by pledging allegiance to a god who probably operates a whole slew of Legions of Terror and might deploy them to hold onto his assets seems understandable to me.

[@michaelpettersson4919]

Some of D&D'd evil deities are puzzling to me. If they appear to be forces of nature they really should be neutral. Auril is such a deity for instance. She try to freeze the world essentially but could have been of the cycles of nature. Winter isn't evil, it just is. But she was sesigned as evil. Another evil deity, Umberlee probably have plenty of non evil worshippers that just want to avoid her wrath. That is important for costal community getting their livelihood from the sea. I have this idea about a fishing village that will not sell their catch until the local priestess have come to take her pick. If she doesn't show up then that is an adventure hook.

[@raymondharnack4160]

Also where are these people deriving their morals from, we shouldn’t be projecting ours onto a fantasy setting (most still do but it’s a cool excercise to consider exactly what is morally acceptable in a fantasy setting with things like undead and such walking the land)

[@katherinespezia4609]

@@michaelpettersson4919 IMO Umberlee is pretty much the ideal example of an evil god in fantasy, specifically because her church isn't evil even though she herself is. People don't worship her because they want to bring about the apocalypse, they just want to keep her appeased so she leaves them alone. The church itself acknowledges that she's an asshole. It's very much in line with the way real life polytheistic religions deal with evil or dangerous gods.

[@Liliputian07]

christianity worships a pretty openly evil god. so does islam. and hinduism

[@thecreepoid901]

One thing I do want to say about the traditional Cthulhu cults, the idea is that they are actively trying to awaken Cthulhu and bring the end is because they want to die first, fearing that if they don't wake up the Elder Gods, somebody else will, and they will have to suffer the nightmare that's to come and would rather have a quick death opposed to prolonged torment.

[@krinkrin5982]

And then there are other cults that want to summon their deity because they believe they will be on top in the new order that emerges after the apocalypse. Then there are those who hope to attain magical powers from their worship (and frequently do), wish to get closer to the divine (the cult of Dagon, various cults that bring about their god's offspring), or are straight up nihilists, driven mad by the revelations about the true nature of the universe.

[@Xebelan]

​@@krinkrin5982Then you have the followers of Hastur, whom -once you peel away the idiots who want power and are obsessed with the iconography of the Yellow King- are a bunch of simple people who want the Star Shepherd to judge and cast off their oppression. it's why the folk cults of Hastur do charity work and fight the Cthulhu cultists when they can. They want the Living God's dreams, not the Dead God Dreaming's nightmares.

[@asahearts1]

Sounds like shoe aside with extra steps.

[@asahearts1]

​​​@@krinkrin5982I always thought most of them were just that last one. Not really shoe aside all, just finding things too horrifying and it makes them want to show the world what exists right in front of their eyes.

[@Patches2212]

One cult in recent fantasy media that is actually a great example to look at as proper "cult" writing is the Leaden Key from the Pillars of Eternity universe. They are an entity that is closely linked to a goddess, but she is a goddess worshipped by regular folks as well, with their ideals mainly focusing on specific interpretations and messages from their goddess. However, the group is primarily run by one extremely intelligent and charismatic leader. He is the glue that binds his cult, and indoctrinates any willing to follow his message. And the thing is- they (especially their cult leader) think they are right and the only ones who know how to protect/preserve culture and civilisation. They also do not have a "generic" goal to raise their goddess into the world, or bring about the apocalypse, etc. Instead, their goal is to ensure that kith (aka "mortal races") do not dig "too deep" into knowledge that might change the way life and history are perceived. They are not just traditionalists- they believe they are the only people in the world who can keep tradition safe. And when you meet their leader, he actually makes compelling cases to justify his deeds. The evil acts he's committed? Calculated and 100% believed by him to have saved people for the "greater good" as his goddess has professed it to him. And when he is removed? The games show how difficult it is to undo the cult's actions/beliefs, but also how difficult it is for the cult to remain unified in a single goal without their leader. Overall, I would really recommend taking a look at the Pillars of Eternity fantasy universe. It has some of the most compelling and well thought-out lores that I have experienced in recent fantasy IP.

[@andrewjacks2716]

YES! I love to see PoE referenced as an example, the worldbuilding, story, and characters are such a terrific example, and serve as a huge inspiration to my games.

[@thekaxmax]

And there's the distinction: when the leader is 'right' and makes the dogma--rather than the existing teachings and godly statements--it's a cult. Of course, in many fantasy worlds the religion's god-powered clerics and paladins will turn up at the cult's door and 'solve' it being a cult. And if it manages to maintain itself there's a reason; either the god's complicit and it's not truly a cult, or it's a rival god faking it and there's about to be a proxy conflict the heroes can get embroiled in. Ie., anything that looks like a cult in a fantasy world that has gods isn't one. So look for the perpetrators.

[@VSPhotfries]

PoE is a WILDLY underappreciated game! Absolutely great writing, and same with the sequel, which also leaned heavily into the moral quandaries surrounding godhood and whether or not it's a smart idea to deify what are essentially "just another creature type" born from.... Nah, not going to spoil that part. I also love how one of the main recruitable characters was directly involved with the cult, and by extension has a personal stake in the very idea it represents and thus has mixed feelings, too.

[@thekaxmax]

@@VSPhotfries tell your friends it's on GoG on 75% off for the next 2 days, as of 3 jan 2024

[@user-ym7ev3xc5y]

There’s also SECOND great cult in this game. The cult of Skaven, god of slaves and silent, cunning rebellion, where that make many bloody sacrifices, but ones you dig deeper they do so in order to summon an incarnate od their god to punish all thos nobles that screw them constantly. The new member of their cult, the woman you are hired to find by noble in the village, is his niece that he violated, and after the trauma she joined the cult to become "The Effigy" and kill her uncle. The cults justification is debatable, but totally understandable

[@darklordofsword]

Why do we like cults? Because regardless of the actual meaning of the term, the popular view of cults is as secretive, authoritarian, and "up to something", with fingers in lots of pies as part of their efforts to do whatever it is they're doing. They make easy, relatively unambiguous villains that can be tied into a bunch of mysteries for a party to unravel and tie together, are more intelligent than just having a bunch of near-mindless monsters throwing themselves at the party and therefore more challenging to fight both in combat and for roleplay. A cult can mess with players who're onto them by subverting the local law enforcement; going to the guards with evidence of a conspiracy doesn't help when the guards are secretly part of the cult.

[@Dominator150395]

Same reason conspiracies make for great villains.

[@ast3077]

because most ppl are micro serfs imho

[@BlertaPupu]

Also, if we don't make cults with actual mindcontrol it can be a very important statement especially if many "normalos" or even more important: people from the state, join the group. The character will then have to ask the question, why are these people joining the cult, especially if they see them actually be possessed later on. It's not a good deal unless they really want to stand for or against something m

[@andrecarpenter2432]

Also it avoids the whole evil races thing by having the villains choose to be evil

[@Bluecho4]

Cults are fanatical, so their members will throw themselves into danger or into heinous acts out of devotion. You don't need to justify their extreme actions, or why they will fight to the death. Cults are hierarchical, built around one or more cult leaders, who delegate the running of the cult to a succession of enforcers and administrators. This fits naturally into a game where players tackle the cult in ascending order of importance (and, therefore, in power). Even if the charismatic leader isn't the strongest guy in the cult, their position merits them the most elite protection by cult guardians or by summoned monsters, or being outfitted with the most potent magic items. Cults are insidious, worming their way into polite society or institutions of power. Their agents can be anywhere, and anyone. Their bases of power can be situated right under everyone's noses. They are a threat that breeds intrigue, mystery, even paranoia. They're a different kind of enemy than raiders, monsters, invaders, or dark lords. Cults are idiosyncratic, taking myriad forms and employing bizarrely singular practices. They can worship anything, so their flavor can vary wildly. From demonic (or devilish) cults, to corrupt offshoots of mainstream religion, to eldritch cults worshiping things from beyond the stars, to cults of the elements (or elementals), to cthonic worshipers of bygone deities of the earth, to personality cults built around a wizard or warrior or bard, to ones devoted to a random monster they found underground that they venerate as holy. Even widespread cults might have each individual cell interpreting their doctrine differently. So worshipers of the same being might look and act in ways that set them apart from their nominal allies in another location. Cults are extreme, going against the rules and norms of mainstream society (which are, often enough, moderating forces). While a cult might be benign and even laudable (if the norms or systems of society are wicked, for instance), when they get the attention of party of adventurers, it's because they're doing some nasty. As stated above, cults are fanatical enough to justify things like human(oid) sacrifice, kidnapping, mob violence, blackmail, and consorting with evil (or at least dangerous) beings. While any Evil organization can engage in such things for pragmatic reasons, being a cult can justify all manner of horrors. Even actions that, all told, are detrimental to the cultists (like trying to summon a monster to destroy the land). They're fanatics, so their suicidal actions make perfect sense to them.

[@AustinPrice184]

Counterpoint, the reason that cults in real life all gather around the single charismatic leader who claims to have more knowledge than everyone else is because we live in a world where gods don't actually speak to us. And don't have a physical presence that is observable by any random person. In a world like dungeons and dragons God's litterly give people magic powers and sometimes make themselves manifest. So In a fantasy world where the existence of a God isn't up in the air but a fact of life it makes sense that cults in that world would be devoted to the God or entity claiming to be a God or whatever the case may be rather than the "high priest themselves

[@ved2360]

Nearly every world religion claims special esoteric knowledge that persist without any charismatic living leaders. Sure, they'll have prophets or founders, but they still think there is some essential truth or god that transcends Jesus, Buddha, Muhammad or whatever. Because it's the ideology that binds them, more or less. And things I would call cult behavior doesn't need either gods nor religion, since it's really just toxic groupthink revolving around possessing an esoteric truth, that normies refuse to acknowledge, and which elevates the in-crowd. (Healing crystals or flat Earth.) As I've adopted Absurdist philosophy, I've long long held the view that this cope is essentially a near-universal human impulse and addresses one of the fundamental problems in philosophy. Life kind of sucks. Nobody likes that life sucks. So they develop coping mechanisms by over-intellectualizing life and trying to reduce its complexities down to simple but understandable problems. They don't even have to be particularly grand truths. This can be as simple as believing that you can defend yourself with ki attacks thrown out of your fists or believing that essential oils or homeopathy can cure cancer. It can honestly just be a fanatical devotion to NFT's and other MLM's. Or you can blame the Illuminati for everything wrong in the world, because at least it's comforting to know somebody is to blame for life's grand problems. (The economy sucks? Well that's just a rational plan from a cabal of supervillains.) Buddhism is wild to people not familiar with it. It's not just a religion about being self help -- the supernatural and cosmological origins of it make sense internally, but inform completely different moral goals from Christianity or the other Abrahamic religions. Buddhism fundamentally asserts that the human condition _sucks,_ as do most major religions, it just thinks it sucks because you're trapped in a cycle of reincarnation which it views as inherently bad because it means suffering is unavoidable. The simple existence of desire is viewed as fundamentally problematic. And it just isn't a human emotion, it's what metaphysically chains you to existence and the cycle of reincarnation. In this sense, Buddhism doesn't view freedom as fulfillment of desire, or even as simply being able to grow around or manage your toxic traits, it views _emotion_ itself as burdensome. Freedom is escape from being yourself, essentially. There _is_ a way out, but it's largely an individualistic salvation only attainable by personal enlightenment. But pursuing and nudging others along this path is both good for people looking to check out of existence _and_ for others in the whole in that it reduces total suffering in the world. A compassionate Buddha, even if they're in the process of leaving existence, is still better for the world than not, on the whole. If you adopt the cosmology, the ethical calculation makes sense. It just hinges on pretty big founding assumptions you have to adopt. Christianity sounds no less insane once you lay it out. Sin is an intrinsic moral crime against God, the author of the cosmos. So he sent a Messiah to loop hole is own moral laws. Which is pretty stupid once you realize that an omnipotent and omniscient god really did this in the most unnecessarily complicated way possible -- and then propagated his message in the most inefficient way possible. But in any case, you can forgive your moral crimes against God through a personal relationship to Jesus. Both religions claim they have it right and its adherents rarely ever comprehend the worldview of the other. And I guarantee that there are adherents in both who claim that I'm doing them a disservice by summarizing their religions this way. But you can ignore them, they're emotionally invested and believe their doctrines have more sophistication that it deserves.

[@malaizze]

I remember in one story I read there _were_ real gods, but the charismatic leadership simply monopolized the way to commune with them directly and claimed they were working on their behalf. The later twist was that the leadership had _actually_ cut contact with the gods centuries ago, and were using the idea of “talking to the gods” as a way to prop up their faith-backed human trafficking operation. Their primary goal was to hide the actual way to contact the gods and keep the status quo going, as “the gods say so” was a pretty successful way to perpetuate their slave trade.

[@krinkrin5982]

@@malaizze There is also the book Small Gods by Terry Pratchett, that has a similar situation. In the book the church stopped actually worshiping the god, and has began to worship their own worship instead by proxy of the Quisition. This has manifested in increasingly more draconian rules and creative punishments in breaking said rules.

[@Uriel238]

Never underestimate the power of lawyers to twist laws or holy decrees to mean what best serves them and not the people. If gods are active, then the ones most proactive with their thunderbolts will get the best results. Real religions have to strike a balance between the mores they want to uphold and the doctrine that brings followers to the pews, often with somn negotiation with kings and plutocrats on the way. Does your god whisper to a few acolytes in the shadows, or is glad to pox the corrupt and curse their families? Divine intervention is a scale of influence setby the author or referee.

[@buboniccraig896]

Yeah but there's multiple gods And you'd need a pretty damn charismatic leader to get you to worship Tiamat of all things. And if it's just about power, I doubt they'd be as devoted as they're presented as.

[@rateeightx]

I believe historically the term "Cult" has actually been used fairly neutrally to refer to members of a polytheistic faith who are primarily devoted to a certain god, Upkeeping the temples of said god and carrying out their rituals et cetera. And this can become even more interesting when you add in mystery cults, With special rituals and practices requires to take care of some god, That are kept secret to those not initiated (Perhaps at the specific request of said god).

[@evelynthepelican]

Cults are very interesting in their role in fantasy because they often replace "evil races" as swarms of people who protags can morally slaughter, which makes me wonder how those kinds of things can be done better as to not weaken immersion

[@saveriocarro9399]

I guess an interesting distinction between evil cultists and individuals from evil races would be the conscious decision to do evil. The cultists choose to do so in like 99% of cases, where evil races just have it in themselves as naturally as breathing

[@jgr7487]

Then there were ancient Cults, mostly seen in the Greek city states, which proposed a closer relationship with a deity, such as the Cult of Hades. There could easily be a cult of the god that judges souls after death (which name I forgot), that promises that taking part in its Mysteries would help people to go to a better afterlife. Whe could also see a cult of Zuggtmoy, the Cult of Fermentation, that is pretty much the religion of a meta-guild of brewers, vine makers, cheese makes, & bakers. My favourite is the cult of Baphomet, which members are farmers that live in the edge of society, so they pray for good hunting, good wields, & that wild beasts prosper in the wild, so farm animals aren't attacked. Their cult leaders would be Druids.

[@AedanTheGrey]

Its interesting that the word cult has been shaped this way, probably because of Abrahamism and modern society enabling NRMs. But yeah, older and polytheist faiths had cults as a common factor of life. Mystery cults and local variations, individual sects of larger belief systems devoted to one god of the myriad collection. Even Christianity has its particular cults and denominations.

[@paulcruz168]

⁠@@AedanTheGreythe world only really appeared in English a few hundred years ago, and only really got any meanings besides “worship” in more modern times.

[@elephantman2854]

​@@paulcruz168 Its also interesting to look at the latin origin of it, which is basically "cultivate", indicating that you are cultivating the attention of some being, atleast to me

[@yogsothoth7594]

In the context of a polytheist setting arguably you could say that the weird thing about the cult is an obsessive devotion with just one deity, where most people wish to keep on the good side of many deities. The cult offers a closer, more personal relationship with a single deity who offers them perhaps more aid than a layman of another faith. The inclusion of a NRM style charismatic leader is certainly a great addition to it though. But consider that NRMs in the modern US are in a place heavily dominated by monotheistic ways of thinking, and primarily abhramaic religious thinking at that. Such that introducing a new deity who is not related to Yahweh in some way is automatically very much outside of the common cultural experience. But for an organisation where its accepted that you worship many gods and perhaps in a location where occassionally taking on the worship of a foreign deity isn't an uncommon thing, then introducing a new deity to someone is perhaps less radical. So you might have an outer layer of those who occassionally ask for the odd boon from this darker deity in addition to their normal religious activities but the cult then tries to draw them into more exclusivity with the promise of a stronger more personal relationship with the divine. Unless magic which lets you verify exactly where a specific individual goes after death is very common I think perhaps its also quite plausible that the cult would make out that the person is likely to gain some rewards as a master of the realm of the cult's deity in death if they do enough to serve this deity, and its only those who give their lives to the cult but fail to commit who will be punished.

[@no-np8dw]

That would work to include cults into a setting but it's really just more similar to the mystery cults and the like of the classical era with them just being organisations dedicated to one specific deity over all the others in a polytheistic culture while also being somewhat secretive and seperated from the normal structures of society except for from what you seemed to describe in your comment a slightly darker bent but that really doesn't seem like it fully captures what people think of when they talk about Dnd cults with them usually thinking of the sort of insular and forbidden religions described for the most part in the video and also the commitment and devotion shown by its followers as the mystery cults though lying outside of ordinary society were still largely accepted or at least somewhat tolerated by the powers that be and a very large portion of the population was a member of atleast one mystery cult and I don't see why the same would not occur with what you described

[@augustgurtisen]

Yeah in polytheism a cult is just a Worker's Union for a particular deity

[@elowin1691]

@@no-np8dw Would be way more interesting to take from ancient mystery cults though tbh

[@dalegaliniak607]

I was going to say something along these lines: People's view of all of this is definitely biased towards modern western society believing that only 0-1 gods exist and magic does not. It's interesting, because if you want to see how a NRM leader would be interpreted by a polytheistic society who _does_ believe magic is real, you just need to see contemporary non-christians' opinions in places like Alexandria as christianity started spreading through. They didn't doubt all the miracles Jesus did, they just were more like, this guy was clearly some kind of magician genius. If he got his powers from this YHWY guy, then he seems to be a pretty powerful god, and maybe they should start working him into their spells, but you say he's the _only_ god? Yeah, if you believe that, then you were had by a guy who wanted your full attention.

[@Bladezeromus]

This video explains a lot. So much. My DnD character was part of a cult (technically is still a part) but it was so difficult to get the rest of the party to be wary of them. And it was all because of how I wrote them and her backstory. Tldr; they were a hedonistic, pleasure cult seeking to create a utopia free from judgement based on the philosophy of a dracolich. Said dracolich was a slave during the wars where the gods of faerun enslaved and used dragon's as steeds so her philosophy was full of ideas of freedom, liberation, sexuality, family, power dynamics, etc. She'd been killed by her captors after completing the ritual to become a lich, but her body was severed and magically sealed so the cult goals were to reassemble her body so that she could revive. The way this manifested in world was a large family-like group with a rigid, clergy type structure lead by a specific leader and a small council under him. The cult often went against slavery and was known to raid and kill indiscriminately, but those places almost always were havens for slavery or dens of filth the exploited sex workers and the like. So they had a bad reputation. One of the big boons people got was powerful magic in exchange for faithful service. You'd get the magic by interacting with the dracolich's slab etching, but only the leader could decide who got to do so because he claimed to commune directly with the dracolich (not true). The big breakdown happened when my character was driven to touch the etchings by the dracolich herself (through dream magic) thus gaining magic without the clergy's consent. This threw a loop in the leader's control. And ended with my character exiled, and later hunted by the cult for heresy. There's a lot more to it than that but the fact that they were reasonable people who, depending on the conflict could be either allies or enemies each time they were encountered kept the party guessing and unsure of how to react to them.

[@thekaxmax]

Nice! I need to use a stereotype BBEG-type that way. "Yes, I'm a beholder! But I'm ! Or, at least, just and not egotistical!"

[@Rynewulf]

Oh thats neat! I like how the charismatic leader figure has kind of usurped the control of the organisation to their own ends, it feels reminiscent of the radicalisation of a real church or political group

[@thekaxmax]

@@Rynewulf It's going to get a response from the god involved, of course, unless it still matches their precepts.

[@Bladezeromus]

@@thekaxmax The response was the dracolich influencing my character to touch the etchings and commune with her directly. She cared more about the leader manipulating everyone into puppets for their own gain than about him not leading them to fully revive her. PCs tend to be more powerful than NPCs except for health pools. So the story reason of why my PCs powers and abilities manifest so much faster and in so many different ways is that the cult's Patron gave her all the power she had left. One of the reason the leader decided to pursue my pc after exile is because the etched tablets no longer work.

[@thekaxmax]

@@Bladezeromus That's my point about the god or equivalent. They will act the moment they know about what's going on, so either the person in charge is no longer in charge, or they are still and it's because the god approves. Either way around they won't stay in charge unless they keep it all secret from their own power source--unless that power source is something else. All of these solutions have adventure possibilities. Plus, as you note, the god's reaction may not match expactation. Think about encountering and discovering, and investigating, a cult and when exposed the god involved materialises an avatar and says, "I should have thought of this! It's great! Let's talk!"

[@thegreatdream8427]

There actually is a coherent meaning to the word "cult" in some circles, though it's often replaced by "group exercising undue influence". You might want to look into Steven Hassan's "BITE model" - Behavior control, Information control, Thought control, Emotion control, which are the four main pillars of coercive groups. These factors describe many groups not traditionally thought of as cults, and clearly distinguish problematic new religious movements (and political movements, and even families) from benign ones. Example: a certain very litigious organization I shall not name but which has many celebrity adherents requires its believers to shun family members who speak against the group (behavior control), to never read or engage with any information critical of the group or sharing secret higher-level doctrines (information control), to change the language they use to describe their experiences with jargon like "upstat" and "low tone" (thought control), and to always remain as enthusiastic-acting as possible no matter how they actually feel so that they may e.g. jump on a couch to profess adoration for a lover on live tv (emotion control).

[@Dominator150395]

That's exactly what I wanted to mention: the word "cult" (at least the one with all the baggage; there's also a more neutral meaning of "religion" or "worship") seems to have split off into _two_ different terms: "new religious movement", which self-explanatorily focuses on how new a religion is, and "high control group", which is the one you've mentioned and focuses on the harm a religion does on its members. I do appreciate the distinction. Not just because it no longer stigmatizes religious movements just for being outside the mainstream, but also because it does noy automatically let older religious groups off the hook.

[@SimonClarkstone]

I was looking for someone mentioning the BITE model. (Mostly because I couldn't remember what it was called.)

[@SimonClarkstone]

Come to think of it, Big Brother from 1984 and the government from Brave New World both meet a lot of those criteria too.

[@Dominator150395]

@@SimonClarkstone True, and abusive relationships also meet a lot of those criteria.

[@thegreatdream8427]

@@SimonClarkstone As do the radical wings of both major political groupings in the US. Identity politics, whether of the left or right variety, hits the B with cancel culture, the I with social media aided filter bubbles, T with the thought stopping cliches and changes in language, and E with the constant manipulation to express guilt for privilege / concern for x group's oppression / anger at x group "destroying America", etc.

[@harperna3938]

i remember learning about how to cover NRMs in a journalism class early on in my experience with ttrpgs (alongside re-reading lovecraft's anthology), but i never really assimilated contemporary real or fictional cult-like structures into my settings. i've always drawn most of my inspiration from greco-roman mystery cults (the eleusinian and dionysian/bacchic mysteries, the theban kabeiria the cult of mithras, etc.), various imperial cults (the shinto *ujigami*, the son of heaven, the roman imperial cult), and various early-modern occultist movements and secret societies (the rosicrucians, theosophists, fundamental magicians, and masonic lodges). i find evil cults (and evil factions more generally) dreadfully boring; most fantastical evil cults simply do not speak to the broadly civic and/or sociopolitical function of historic cults, typically in favor of presenting a band of unambiguous villains for the heroes to slaughter. the only version of this trope i find tolerable involves the cult leader misleading the initiates/being misled by the cult's sinister deity in favor of some sinister purpose, but even that's a bit overdone at this point.

[@TheJMuffins]

i think a great example of a fantasy doomsday cult would be the Mythic Dawn from Oblivion. Although their goal is to bring about the end of the world, they believe that this act of destruction is necessary for the bringing about of a new world, a paradise eternal where they shall rule as the bearers of the millennium xarxes, the Holy word of of their god, who destroys the old to rebuild the new.

[@andrasbonitz3491]

It's also noteworthy that they sort-of got what they wanted but it was actually secretly a hell.

[@downix]

This was the example I was thinking of as well. It also checks the marks of having a charismatic leader and being engaged with the political as well.

[@infinitesheldon5710]

I once played a reformist cult leader in a D&D campaign. He was a Divine Soul Sorcerer with the Acolyte background, hailing from a church that followed a god of Lawful Order. He was a radical within the church, believing that the most important aspect of Law was appropriate punishment, which he felt the rather good-aligned church was far too lax on. His views were deemed too extreme for the church itself, and he was excommunicated. However, as he continued to spread his message, he found divine powers welling up within him, allowing him to enact hexes, curses, and blights upon those he deemed to have broken the Law. He attributed these newfound divine powers to his God, believing himself to have been blessed for spreading the "true message" of his religion. I left it to DM fiat where the actual powers originated, whether he was actually right in his interpretations of the scripture, or if a rival trickster god had bestowed him with power to sow division within the ranks of the church. I'm sad the campaign only ran for a dozen sessions, and never reached its conclusion. As is, it was a lot of fun playing a heretical religious figure who was amassing his own followers with the aim of creating a new church that adhered more to his harsh interpretations of the scriptures. As an aside, this backstory was entirely just to justify an experimental build I'd been wanting to try. Debuffs are woefully unexplored in D&D, with not nearly enough classes getting access to decent debuff methods outside of one or two spells. I found that Divine Soul Sorcerer, through the combination of the Cleric and Sorcerer spell list, plus metamagic, was the closest I could get to a pure, dedicated debuff build. Mind Sliver, Bane, Blindness/Deafness, Tasha's Mind Whip, Bestow Curse, Slow, Confusion, Sickening Radiance, and Synaptic Static, alongside metamagic like Quickened Spell and Twinned Spell, all made for an amazing support character. So many ways to shut down enemies who would normally have been an enormous problem for the party, while having very few ways of actually doing any serious damage himself.

[@MachFarcon]

I've taken to segmenting my "cults" into two basic types: Cynical and Optimistic. Cynical "cults" are just a group of individuals (though they might have actual believers in the lower ranks) that use the surface level trappings of a religion to ward off scrutiny, while actually not doing any real believing. This is how you can get someone in league with a demon since it's an agreement/understanding/contract where both sides benefit. Optimistic is how I try to run actual cults, where there is genuine belief in whatever they are doing. And since I run "gods" as existing due to faith in them, it's entirely possible for a cult to create a god. This can lead to all sorts of different encounters or events, since (to keep things relatively uncomplicated from a deity perspective) only one deity can have a specific domain at a time. You could have, for example, a "Blacksmithing God" and a "Mining God" as separate individuals, or they could be combined. This allows for players to not only potentually influence things, but also for an understandable reason why things are the way they are. I do run persistent settings, and players seem to really like the idea that what they do can potentually change the setting forever, birthing or removing whole religions and gods.

[@corymorse4271]

It might be fair to say most cults start out optimistic at least in their membership and begin to fall apart when the cynicism becomes unavoidably obvious.

[@Marcus-ki1en]

IMO - Cults are those groups who operate outside of Orthodoxy. Usually headed by a charismatic individual or group holding a "truth". People are attracted by our innate sense of wanting to belong, especially to a selective group. Speaking from across the pond, what causes a group to become a cult, rather than a branch, is the seemingly common practice of the "end justifying the means" by leadership and the crossing over of behavior or practices that go against the norms of the group they broke away from or society in general. Could you not argue that Christianity in its earliest form was just a cult of Judaism? If a cult becomes large enough, or successful enough, do they then become a religion or a branch of the original?

[@AedanTheGrey]

I totally agree. Though Im not part of the cults mentioned and thus am not offended by the suggestion so maybe Im just biased.

[@laurencefraser]

That sounds like you're specifically talking about Heretical cults. A subtype of cult (and possibly also a subtype of heresy). One can have hetrodox beliefs without being a heretic, the difference being that the first is just 'not the official/standard doctrine' while the latter is 'actively contraindicated by the official/standard doctrine', but neither require being a cult, while it is entirely possible for a group to become (or at least come to be seen as) a cult while still being entirely orthodox in its beliefs and practices (well, depending on the society and religion in question).

[@Marcus-ki1en]

@@laurencefraser While I don't disagree in principle, if a group believes and practices the orthodox, then they are arguably orthodox. It is when they move beyond in their practice that they are usually labeled a cult. In modern times (here in the US), I think of Jonestown, the Branch Dividians, or the Westborough group. While their beliefs could be labeled as close to orthodox, they all took an extreme version, based on the interpretation of the leadership (the cult of personality) and justified the means for the ultimate end. They tend to claim special or revealed "truth" that the orthodoxy lacks.

[@UnswimmingFishYT]

I've actually seen "cult" used sometimes in reference to rather agreeable groups whose ideas are widely considered acceptable. The main religion of 8 or 9 deities in Elder Scrolls was called the Imperial Cult in earlier writing, and it's in favor of honest work, knowledge seeking, love for other people, artistry, mercy, and protection of weaker people. All of these are usually agreed as just completely good ideas, but mostly in TES III: Morrowind, it was called a cult. This is the most popular example with it being a more recognized series of games, but there are more obscure cases where cult is just the term for various small religious groups of nontraditional people. I played a tiny game once, forgot the name, where the only cult was basically just a group of fortune tellers who usually seemed accurate, but vague.

[@laurencefraser]

That would be down to that being Roman based. The various Roman gods (and some other entities) each had their own cult, with the term meaning something a bit different from what it has since become (they weren't different religions or following hetrodox practices or the like, they were just the religious group focused on a specific entity within that structure). This is apparently also where we get the word 'culture' from. Probably 'occult' too, come to think of it, though I could be entirely wrong about that one. Wouldn't surprise me if someone taking inspiration from those ancient roman cults, and then that getting mashed together with more modern cults (the usage having changed over the centuries) to get your generic fantasy model. It does rather sound like someone with no understanding of either mashed the two ideas together. Mind you, I say this as someone with only a vague passing knowledge of either.

[@UnswimmingFishYT]

@@laurencefraser It is probably that Cyrodiil is so heavily based on ancient Rome, but it's also just a better use of the word in my opinion because it gives it literally any use beyond a bunch of creepy guys worshipping another guy or some evil entity, with terrible practices and generally some purely malicious aim. Way too many of those, so the occasional use as something more gray or even acceptable helps preserve the word as not being only for villains.

[@donkeysaurusrex7881]

Also there are two “cults” as we think of them in Morrowind. First, the dissident priests of the Tribunal temple you encounter as part of the main quest, and second a Cult of Tiber Septim you encounter as part of the Imperial Legion quests. The second is interesting as it is very much hair splitting with the quest giver admitting Tiber Septim worship is perfectly fine as he is one of the Nine Divines but these guys are taking it a little too far.

[@donkeysaurusrex7881]

Not to mention the many people worshipping the bad daedra in general and the “Four Corners of the House of Troubles” in particular.

[@magnus1383]

I feel that with warcraft rp. So many people make cultist villains that worship some dark entity like void or the blood god. The best cult example in the Scarlet Crusade, because it's built upon a fervent worship of a common religion that got taken too far and has a very understandable goal that drives them. The pseudo christian light worship is reliant on faith for their priests and crusaders to be able to use the light in magic, so it is already tailored to blind faith. The Scarlet Crusade is pretty much at war with the undead because the trauma of the Scourge made them extremists. They wish to cleanse their old homes. They are political as well. They're basically an outward looking hate group too. The cult of forgotten shadows is further the Forsaken (undead faction) common religion, which was born from the fact that Forsaken used to be humans who commonly worship the light, and then the light abandoned them. When they rose as undead, the light now hurt them. They were reborn from shadows, so the new religion originally started by a living human woman became theirs. They have different denominations, including those that believe the light and shadow must exist in balance. I would honestly say they don't fit the term cult. They have no "charismatic cult leader" and Forsaken greatly value free will. They're pretty much just a main religion. Then you have the druids of the flame, who want to regain their immortality. I don’t know enough of that group to say much, but I like that they are still a subset of druids, since druidism is the main thing in their culture. I wish they used the fact that volcanic ash is very fertile soil in their weird beliefs rather than just yelling about burning the world and stuff. They're night elves, use night elf logic. The druids of the flame could be a pretty good cult if they weren't used as main villains and there were a less extremist subset of them. Afaik, they still worship the wild gods, along with an elemental, making them somewhat shamans. I don’t do night elf rp, only Forsaken and troll, and I won't bring up the Atal'ai because they're just evil blood god dudes. Being strongly devoted to one loa is also pretty much the norm unless you're a shadow hunter, so a cult of Jan'alai would just be the priesthood. Night elves and trolls are very much alike.

[@thekaxmax]

So secretive extremist worshippers of the human emperor would also count?

[@atashgallagher5139]

When you are world building a cult, you should look up the BITE model and then make sure that your cult meets enough of the points on the model to be considered a cult. Now fantasy cults have some advantages over the real life cults because they have actual rewards of power or riches or some tangible promise which they can see being delivered. They don't necessarily need their leader saying that he speaks for their god or is their god because their god or the greater demon they worship can literally speak directly to the cult members if they want to. The cult founder probably isn't just making up or hallucinating their cult or religious doctrine like real world cult and religious doctrines, they are literally handed it on a sheef of infernal paper or have it burned into their brain by their eldritch overlord. Probably they are offering the chance at power, or the chance at survival in the face of the oncoming apocalypse wrought by their god's own hand, they feel that they know the dread god will win and they want to be in his favored few when that comes about. They'd rather be middle management in hell on earth than serve in heaven or risk being on earth and the guy not being contained or defeated.

[@AbusiveCactus]

I've made use of a number of mostly-benevolent cults in my own worldbuilding in less technologically and culturally advanced regions. Some might call them 'pagan' religions, but I just refer to them as cults in the same way that the romans might have referred to the 'Cult of Dionysus'. They operate in opposition to my setting's main religion, which dominates a large part of the continent.

[@GrahamFryeJr]

Great timing! I'm playing a solo game set in Pathfinder's Golarion and there's a cult in the area. I don't have much to go on besides a name, really, and I hadn't thought out how they'd fit into the story yet. Your video has given me some good considerations. Thanks!

[@wagz781]

Honestly I find cthonic horrors a bit... on note nowadays. At least in most intstances of how I've heard people using them. They're not neccesarily engines of destruction. They have particular motives. You're just not the primary things they even think about let alone care about. Yig (the god of snakes and reptiles) loves his children. He's a doting, protective father. Which makes him INCREDIBLY spiteful and vindictive towards anyone which dares lay a hand on his precious babies. It doesn't matter that you're worshiping him, if a snake sneaks into your sleeping bag and you kill it to protect yourself, you will be cursed with a fate far worse than death because you were less important than the serpent you slew. As such, his followers are prone to being reborn as reptilian races which the other reptilian followers of yig aren't particularly keen on. You're kinda his adoptive kids that he's telling them to at least get along with, and you've got far more power due to coming from a society where you were just able to get more people than them. He doesn't neccessarily care to remove all the monkeys that have taken over one of the worlds his children inhabit, he wants his children to return to their rightful positions. If the monkies die along the way, then so be it. That's the major kind of characterization that I like to do with elder gods. Most mainstream deities tend to approach things with their followers as the particular focus. Where as elder gods don't care. They do what they do, and they don't care much for anything else. You can worship them like any other deity, but you have to accept that you are largely insignificant to them. Which allows the cult leader to still fill that role of charismatic leader because they kinda have to mask the fact that the god they're worshiping doesn't really care about them until they more or less force the deity to notice and like them.

[@josenavarro6897]

I run my games in a late antiquity inspired setting and one absolutely awesome "cult" which i used and my players loved to was inspired by the orphic mysteries of the late roman empire. real cults, really widespread, had really dramatic and violent rituals, and some of the most beautiful and inspiring religious symbolism. i recommend if you'd like to add greco-roman flavor to your game to read a bit on them. they became halfway allies of the party, leading to some real fun and weird situations.

[@bennusmagnus5277]

I'm in the process of creating a fantasy cult or belief, where the beings that are being worshiped say that they are only asking for friends, companions, and people to play games with. Those who worship them or like to interact with them are offered the opportunity to become one of them, and they make sure their followers are fed every day. However, the worshipers don't know that the beings they worship have a nagging desire to make more of themselves whenever they feel like it, so it's fortunate that these otherworldly beings usually only target the ones who want it.

[@Karajorma]

First video I've watched from this channel and it's an instant subscribe. I don't even run D&D at the moment but you've given me tonnes to think about for the cult in one of my Cyberpunk player's backstory.

[@LeonardAndHisBiscuit]

I've got a player in a 5e game who's running their own cult of chaos. Not necessarily evil, just.. chaos. I'm running it as a sort of hidden trade, where cult members still partake in their normal lives, but also- on the down low- spread awareness of this chaotic devotion and form networking with each other. It's less of a cult at this point, more of a guild, but there's a lot of leniency since it's all about whatever's chaotic enough at the moment.

[@danielgoldberg5357]

Great, really thoughtful content on this channel. I enjoy world building and videos like this definitely provide good direction. I enjoyed the video on polytheism as well.

[@unavailableun]

Also an interesting thing, your summary of the points of a cult at about 3:40 works for the extreme left (and probably right, but I don't know enough about that to say for sure)

[@BaumMiner]

Not related to the video, just thought this channel fit this discussion: I never played Dnd, just watched some people play and they didn't use spell components. So maybe the awnser to this is obvious to someone who knows more about the lore and mechanics. But for spells where the component is consumed, would the world eventually not run out and make that magic impossible in the future? (if not run out of the material, then it becoming so scarce that it's basically the same) I heard for example ruby dust or diamond dust mentioned as spell components. They are already rare and expensive, but would that not mean that in 2000 years or 5000 years time the spells using those are practically unfeasable?

[@jacksmythe2187]

There are a decent few factors that help balance out the use of spell components. The actual amount used isn't that much and most spellcasters aren't powerful enough to cast the spells that need limited components like gem dust so it's a slower attrition rate than you might think. Especially for spells that just need metal or gem dust, so it doesn't have to be good quality gems, just waste dust from actual gem cutting. More importantly, the elemental plane of earth is a literally infinite plane of minerals and dirt, so casters can source their components (or source them to market) without hassle. It takes high level mages, but a couple of them either teleporting golems there to mine or summoning earth elementals to gather gems for them can turn a good profit for themselves that way and most major magical institutions would have someone on staff to get them materials that way. Also, depending on the setting, there might be spells to transmute materials into what you need, but that's rarer I think. Hope that helps!

[@DL-sx7yh]

material components are simple things for the most part they are symbols. in game terms they are a means of regulating the power of the caster with a monetary penalty, The more powerful the spell typically the more expensive the component cost. but this is in low to mid tier magic settings when you get into high fantasy depending on the setting thoughts become wishes

[@troubirdor]

This was awesome! I love how you presented your ideas as worldbuilding inspiration as a means to make more compelling stories without oversimplifying or glossing over the real world implications of the topics you discussed

[@namenlossterbliche6239]

I think the Mythic Dawn from TES 4: Oblivion is a cult done right. They have a charismatic leader, they take money from members, they are offered a reward in the form of magic, knowledge and promise of paradise after death. They are not just some edgy hood wearers sitting in a cave, a lot of the members are actual people you might have met before, might have spoken to, without even realizing who they are. They reveal themselves only after you cause them trouble in their HQ basically and start attacking you on the street. It was so cool to watch how their signature summoned cult armor dissappears after death, you look at the guy and realize that it is not some nameless assasin number 5, it was a citezen of the city you met before

[@Crazylittlehobbit]

The cult troph I always laugh at is the secret cult idea in fantasy. Real cults don't hide, they make their presence know because they want fallowers.

[@thekaxmax]

There's a difference between people knowing them and people knowing them. How much was known of the secrets of the Masons before tell-all books were published? Or the Scientologists?

[@Crazylittlehobbit]

@@thekaxmax Very true, but most cults in fiction don't even fallow that rule. Most fictional cults are hidden organization who excistance is only know about by those who are already members.

[@KevinWarburton-tv2iy]

In case of Masons a lot still isn't known as most stuff that that was published was codswallop/hornswaggle :) written by enemies claiming to be ex-Masons.

[@krinkrin5982]

As a counterpoint, you can be aware that a cult exists, but not who the members are. If a cult is persecuted, it will hide, develop special means of checking if someone is in the know, and so on. Research priest holes, or the counter reformation movement for historical examples.

[@constellaespj4398]

Yes please, I'd love to see more about fantasy cults. Just found your channel and this video is so good I subbed to see what else you got.

[@roylasley8098]

I can count the number of times I’ve commented on a KZbin video on one hand. I’ve listened to this particular video multiple times today and I greatly appreciate the guidance it has given me for my own game I’m running. You asked at the end of the video for some indication that this type of content is desired and appreciated and I want to signal as loudly as I can that yes, I’d love more of this.

[@darcyw156]

Great vid. I like that you tackled the"what is a cult" question prior to making your points. I like your actual cult ideas. I think it would be fun to try some of these. Thanks for this one.

[@ferrisffalcis]

i dont even know what the video is yet but the title goes hard

[@a.bettik8698]

Very good points. This is actually what makes Oblivion main quest crappy, and Morrowind one much better. What happened between the two, is that Michael Kirkbride was largely set aside the core team. And we know that Kirkbride, beside of being generally speaking a world-building genius, man of talent, humour and imagination, was actually a religious studies major, among other cultural interests. Quod erat demonstrandum.

[@BlondieHound1]

I have a player who's playing a communist. He wanted to spread the word of the power of the worker. It was going great until one of the other players pointed out that the methods he was using to recruit people was similar to that of cult. He insists that it isn't a cult. Unfortunately for him, my goal from the start was to have him stare aghast at the end as his new cult becomes terrorists.

[@Grungeon_Master]

Fantasy Fight Club, love it!

[@BlondieHound1]

@@Grungeon_Master weirdly enough. I've never seen that movie, so I'm gonna take your word for it.

[@barddan7203]

I absolutely love this video, I'm in the process of writing a long format dark fantasy campaign that does Involved the significant group that will be antagonistic towards my players. I love your take on things and I will definitely take these things into consideration. Love this video, I love your work, anything more you can do about cults would be much appreciated!

[@andreaforti2577]

Happy new year man I love your content

[@SpeedSpawn78]

I was having a hard time writing the motivations for the celestial gate cult for my grim hollow campaign. I was always deleting and re-writing it because I couldn't get them right. The reflection offered in this video has helped me a lot and I think this time I'm happy with the result. Thank you!

[@mikeknight6556]

IVE NEEDED MORE CULT RELATED WORLDBUILDING CONTENT. Thank you Sir Grungeon Master

[@grantpflum6844]

I recommend you check out the Lost Mages trilogy by D.B. King. It handels cults REALLY well. The seres focus on an order of bone mages, who are DEMON CULTIST that get their power from killing things and using their bones to fuel their demon granted magic. The thing is the order is dedicated to protecting the people of their kingdom, not because that is what their patron wants, but because they believe that power requires purpose so they devoted their lives to the most lives to using the most lethal powers in the land in the most noble manner they could imagine. What really sells this though is how dependent the Order is on their leader. Their demon patron doesn't really care about what they do or what happens to them so long as they continue to venerate him. To the point that when the order was reduced to only five members when the king the Order served betrayed them their patron did nothing. The leader of the order, however, was able to rebuilt the cult after they had been banished and scattered for more than twenty years in less than a month because they have that much faith in him.

[@Gwalothel]

Great video! While playing Baldur‘s Gate 3, I wondered why you would join the cult of Bhaal when you are destroyed in the end anyway. The only rationale would be that Bhaal would kind of say that afterlife is a scam and to termination of the universe would make more sense, but that‘s barely possible in that universe.

[@3X3NTR1K]

In d&d evil souls become grubs, in both sense of the word. A cult of already evil people could happen just if they get promised to skip the worm phase to become an imp after death.

[@tobyyasutake9094]

Id be really interested in seeing a follow up video for specifically Call of Cthulhu. CoC is so tied to the sacrificial cultist, yet it being set in a real time and place (the 1920s) I feel somehow that it would be ripe for a cultist reimagining.

[@1234redwing]

I often thought of stuff like this with lovecraft, why would someone want to bring about the end of the world, and the only reason I could come up with fitting with the cosmic horror vibes of Lovecraft is these people just assumed the apocalypse is inevitable anyway and if they helped bring it about then they could receive some benefits beforehand

[@creeptv7514]

Thank you for this; took some notes and will now redo my various, previously cult themed religions and groups into something more sensical and thus less apocalyptic

[@MrGeneralPB]

well, i did have an idea for my next campaign to run with my players, dieselpunk adventure with magic kinda inspired by indiana joe, set in a fantasy world, one of the bad guy factions was going to be a demon worshipping cult (they are technically real in this campaign just not from the same plane) but i found it difficult to answer the questions "but why?" with them, power is obvious... but there are so many other ways of getting that... so it seems to be something i just can't put into the game without some more work and ideas on that topic...

[@cemal124]

I've been thinking about how my cult might work at first it was cliché, but i somehow evolved it, the leader is charismatic and brings people in by having a better economy than most countries, and because they are magic based no one aside from people with nuclear weapons can make them pay taxes

[@Hyperbuzz10]

Ngl, if cults in their most extreme form in the real world would be put into a fantasy setting, it would be genuinely terrifying. Might be hard to write that without going too hard honestly.

[@michaelmcnamara1839]

You make a great point that most effective cults have something to offer their recruits. I like that you also point out that cult members dont need to be stupid. In fact cults tend to target the rich, the intelligent and the influential. These are often intelligent and generally well-educated people. After all one of the main things a cult wants from its followers is their assets and their earning capacity, smart people generally have a better level of these. In some ways feeling like you are more intelligent than others can actually make you more vulnerable to cults as you will be even more drawn to "secret knowledge" or the idea that your group knows better than the rest of the world. I read somewhere a lot of cult members (and cult founders) are engineers!!! The things that allow cults to get their hooks into you are common to all people no matter how smart they are, things like love bombing, isolation thought stopping cliche's and generally destabilising people are hacks to the brain that work on everyone. They are also the same phenomena that are found in abusive relationships. Note to GM's if playing a cult with any level of credibility you wanna check in with your party and make sure they dont have any trauma around cults or abusive relationships as if you dive too much into these techniques during roleplay it could be incredibly harmful. For a cult to survive, it has to have a decent number of people who think they are benefiting without being to isolated from society so that they can form a camouflage for the nastier stuff. Also a cult will have a tier of patrons - rich, infuential or otherwise beneficial members who will have a very positive experience of the cult. These are there to fund, and protect the name and reputation of the cult and may even form the driving lever towards its goals. Often the exploitation and abuse of the rest of the cult members will be in the service of this tier of members - whether they are aware of it or not. Certain famous personalities in the public spotlight are exemplary of this tier, you can also find it discribed in detail in the histories of many modern cults.. Even for those who arent well off or offer power and influence to the cult, there still has to be a selling point that gets them to engage - even if this attraction is just about making them feel like they are receiving some kind of benefit. As they are drawn deeper, the selling point itself might even become the lever used to manipulate them deeper into the more exploitative and harmful stuff. The material written by survivors of the NXIVM and other cults make an interesting read looking at this. Sometimes there no deity involved, really , just a devotion to something be that a hobby, a desire for self improvement, a desire to connect with other people or even a desire to improve/save the world. Anything can form the initial attraction, the techniques applied then whether consciously or unconsciously are eerily similar, involving a mixture of love-bombing, introduction of a new language and set of concepts, isolation from previous life connections, emotional abuse, humiliation, blackmail and even physical abuse, all gradually increasing in intensity There is a lot of great information out there about modern cults and the techniques they use. Cultish - by Amanda Montell is a good place to start. Applied very carefully and cautiously (see warnings above), it could be fun to have a cult try and recruit your party into a cult that resembles these modern cults. Extra fun if the cult leader is a charlatan with no magical or divine abilities in a world where these are so tangible. The lack of arcane or divine magic could even be a feature of the cult ie. they reject such things and claim they weaken the soul and crave the authentic mortal experience. For flavour, you could explore the history and common elements of modern cults. Also you could look at classical Cults like the cult of Mithras or the cult of Isis. and then look back at early Christianity and the various "heretical" movements, how they worked and how they were dealt with. Might also be some interesting research on how - as they spread into new territory - new or imposed religions dealt with any folk traditions or religions that precede them, how the new religion might be incorporated in with the old and how that plays out. So much of human history and human suffering has been based around who is allowed to believe what.

[@caylabrakers9212]

Really enjoyed this discussion, and I would love to hear more!

[@jonhemphill7661]

I am curious, what do you suggest we do with evil gods in the a RPG campaign? I mean still like the idea of evil gods but your video brings up good points

[@Svartalf14]

What'ds your opinion of Thulsa Doom's Black Sun cult in the 1981 Conan movie?

[@kalebsmith4159]

I think a part of the confusion with cults is the words associated with the word occult. Each has different roots but are similar in modern language. Occult means secret and to hide away, which was associated with magic and eventually darker magic or demonic magic. It was pretty easy for people to associate cult with occult, especially with the satanic panic. Lovecraft I think, also influenced the occult cult we know today.

[@athena1491]

i think its also important to note the perspective we see these cults from, as opposition to them, which might lead to this misunderstanding when new people take the works theyve seen to create their own from it, things are missed. The first sinister death cult in fantasy, may have only been seen that way by outsiders who had an understanding of what theyre doing, from the followers perspective, they didnt see it as bringing the end of the world, and didnt want to end the world, they were just promised things they wanted and offered community and support, which lead them to being taken advantage of. The person reading the story knows the true goals of the cult leader, and may forget that the followers probably dont know their actual goals, so when they tell a story about a sinister death cult, the followers are aware, cause the reader is aware.

[@roberthausch3155]

the island of Hermea in pathfinders campaign setting is the home to the gold dragon Mengkare who is funding a city for his social experiment project that seeks to perfect people's souls through regulation of all major aspects of their lives

[@daspotato]

Also, a lot of these 'dark gods' are likely to be what, Chthonic Gods. Ones like Hades and Hecate and Persephone. In a functioning pantheon of gods. 'Mystery Cults' or worshipped with a sense of danger, because they reveal hidden important religious truths. Like the lords of The Abyss and Seven Hells are going to realistically be worshiped for some important religious function of Winter, Death, the secrets of the Harvest, deep ritual magic, etc.

[@the_epipan]

I wrote a long comment talking about this topic of cults and D&D... but I keep seeing that KZbin automatically deletes it. What can I do to avoid this censorship?

[@TheUkiko]

I was once in a DnD group and my character was ranger that lived outside of society. The were on their way to the capital city of their country to aveng the death of the ones that raised them. Many things that the others in the group just seemed weird to her. In one case they got a quest to to go fight this cult. Because my character had no idea what was going on most times she was not there when the quest was accepted. When our leader was explaining what our mission was her stoped and asked what the difference between other religions and a cult. The other characters were shocked at this question. On one character the bard stopped and was like yeah what is the difference. It was kinda just brushed aside as being one of those things she just didn't understand. It's a cool idea to think what would have happened if the DM would have explored this more.

[@slashes22]

I love your content on religion in fantasy! Keep it up!

[@davidcarmichael8410]

im 100% interested in seeing a deep dive into this topic and others like it, was this video that made me subscribe

[@1234redwing]

I know for myself, when I use colts and games, I go off of the definition of the mystery cults of the ancient world, aka a cult is a religious movement whose core principles are only revealed to members, so, for a modern example, Scientology. On top of that, we know that there are historic religious movements whose primary purpose is to achieve enlightenment through transgression and taboo, the cult of Dionysus, Hindu Aghori mystics, etc.

[@KaterinaDeAnnika]

I’d love to see more videos on this topic. Enjoyed this one!

[@themremperror1391]

A good example of cult you can see in game Gothic 1 where are people who pray to unknown creature name Sleeper because they want freedom from the "eternal" prison in which they were put by followers of true religion in this world.

[@user-ft9ul5ul5v]

Last part is central to the Triads for example. Many of them have an esoteric inner circle and fancy names related to ancient concepts of qi cultivation and taoism.

[@kajetanmazurkiewicz5459]

I really love the way you bring real life intricacies into fantasy world! I feel like my world building is becoming much more believable to myself thanks to you! Cheers! 😊

[@Birdman_LIVE]

Topic very close to my dm heart as I’m mapping out a Tyranny of Dragons play though and of course the bad actors in that are the Cult of the Dragon the stupidest cult ever. That’s one major reason I’m having fun with the campaign. Fleshing out the cult and its leader and their goals - which really aren’t addressed in the text. Your ideas have reinforced several of my inclinations. Thank you.

[@user-fo1bi7oo2i]

I've watched a few of your videos already and they doesn't really impressed me, though I liked the formal way of narration and some specific information pointed out as well as examples. This video is not like those, I like it very much from start to finish. I had some feeling that it will be great and I was right. It always bothered me that cults in fantasy, or any other fiction really, were always about summoning some infernal overlord deity or just a swarm of demons, but somehow I always stumbled in my own attemps to think about any other goals for a cult and interestingness of a cult for me was essentially defined by how detailed and unusual its rituals were described. Now a much broader horizon was unlocked for me and I must thank you for that.

[@Snst-404]

Gotta say that the cult of the forgotten gods on Zendikar (from mtg) was fairly well thought out, sure there's no one cult leader as far as im aware but everyone had their minds warped around the forgotten gods bent to a form they view as creators and saviors of the realm quite literally bringing salvation to the people of the plane unknowingly worshipping it's demise

[@yamakaze951]

ACOUP's Practical Polytheism and I think either Let's Understand Religion or another channel talks about cults in the ancient polytheist sense of 'cultivating a deep and personal relationship with a deity'. Of course, that academic definition isn't the current meaning of the word.

[@prestonflinders9209]

I would love to see more of this style of content, deeper dives into how different types of cute might act or form would be awesome.

[@sykune]

I have a total of 4 cults in my campaign eqch one is associated with one of the four warlock patrons from the players handbook, one acts as templar like order, another acts like a group lead by mother teresa, one is a commune and the last is a typical lovecraftian cult.

[@Neshoba1337]

Honestly the best example of a cult in fantasy that i have seen lately is the Yiga Clan from BotW/TotK

[@Gunthersby]

I wrote a cult into the backstory of a character once, a drider whose legs got cursed off and stolen to access its blood in Lolth-related rituals on the quest for power and immortality. It was a smaller cult, spread thin across cities and primarily recruited from upper society to access wealth and connections with the promise that members will partake in the fruits of their group-wide labour.

[@thiagom8478]

The opening of this video is very interesting, got me thinking. Because I played the role of narrator for tabletop RPG sections a few times, and I do like a lot to write fantasy (for myself) and I never, NEVER made a "cult" in the sense the video describes. Not even considered the possibility. "Cult" and "Religion" are synonyms, as far as I can judge. A cult is a religious community, no more and no less. The largest cult in my country has a ceremony where they drink human blood and eat human flesh (symbolically, I would say, but not metaphorically. My late grandfather was a member of that cult, and I know they are very particular about this detail: it is not "just" a metaphor). Most devote people only do on Sundays, but most religious people go every day. They also place images of a human body being tortured, almost completely naked, in walls. Among other morbid and strange images. All that does not prevent most of the devote member of this cult being fairly decent human beings. I honestly believe that for most of them being part of that strange, morbid cult, is a good and healthy thing. A connection that makes sense for them, and makes them better persons than they would or could be if they didn't had this cult in their lives. When I think about Lolth Church in Menzoberranzam, or the devotion of some people for deities like Cthulhu and Nergal in Lovecraft's related settings. I consider those religions strange, and amazing. Full of contradictions. And able to provide answers for the deep needs of human soul. Needs their follows seek and need, and find in their faith. Like all religions are. Like my grandfather's religion is.

[@tristandukes5548]

I think it's important to note that a lot of pretty horrible cults emerge and are part of more mainstream religions. The Bible belt has some really weird stuff man

[@KevinWarburton-tv2iy]

Church Universal & Trumphant for example.

[@YourBoyNobody530]

One thing I added to my cult was what I call the stock home chambers. Basically, through a combination of near isolation, and no small amount of magic they were able to make kidnapped individuals into willing and heavily devout members of the cult loyal to it and its leader.

[@Rynewulf]

Thats just brainwashing. Stockholm syndrome is when Swedish police treat the civilian hostages so badly they speak out about and try to help the bank robbers negotiate because thats safer. So what the cult would really do is deliberately put the people of a really dodgy city guard in danger over something minor, so the people band together and help the cult because the city guard are already so much worse

[@Arbiter55555]

Would love to see more ideas tie ins for the sort of tropey ones we have now connected to the more down to earth cults/NRMs. Really like the last example with a dark being starting up hate based groups that profane Good aligned gods- much like the game played by Freemasons and the Catholic Church in real life. I love the idea of my players having little iconography pop up when dealing with groups like that and piecing together that they're tied into a group wich comes off as legitimate, yet works in the shadows for some reaon. Only get out the big guns with actual demonic encounters well into the late game once the proverbial jig is up.

[@SvafaBlackhand]

This video focuses primarily on the prominent modern meaning of cult, but I've usually used cults in my games in the more classical sense. That is, in the sense of the Roman imperial cult, or the cults of the saints in Christianity, or the Greco-Roman mystery cults. These aren't generally NRMs, and instead fit into a pantheistic setting as a way of venerating and dedicating to specific individuals. "Cult" after all means to adore or venerate, and comes from the same root as "culture" and "cultivate". As such, a cult might act openly, similar to how certain saints are venerated within Christianity, possibly even having whole orders that follow their teachings, like a monastic order. Or, a cult might be secretive, carrying out its practices privately, but be a known and active part of society, similar to the mystery cults, or for a modern day example, any of many "secret" societies, like the Skull and Bones, Scroll and Key, or Wolf's Head of Yale. It may even function closer to a fraternity or guild. Basically, my argument is we should be modeling our fantasy cults on the Freemasons, rather than the Branch Davidians (or similar). After all, the Freemasons are a secret society made of fraternities that are closely tied to stonemason guilds and have a religious framework. Forget the one-off baddies trying to end the world; focus on an entrenched system that both supports the community and its morals, but is also ripe for corruption and exploitation. If it also reinforces traditional views and practices that exploit or abuse outsiders to the benefit of those in power, all the better.

[@Enshadowed]

A most excellent video, Tom!

[@nduduzoblose4355]

I think The Diagram from The Stormlight Archive is definitely a cult, and is a very interesting and subtle one. The object of devotion being old Vanji's one day of absolute brilliance. Too good🔥

[@Klomster88]

Having played Godbound a bunch, the cults one encounter and form in that game are of course of the normal variety, but also of a wide variety of other variants. Since each player, being an up and coming god, form their own cults. Each player decide for themselves what their worshippers holy teachings are. So you can make them as wholesome or malign as you want. You can also (and is encouraged to) provide tangible boons for your worshippers or allied factions like magic powers, infinite food, magical artifices or whatever you can imagine and what you can provide based upon your deities powers. But this goes under the active tangible deity being the catalyst for the worship. Since it is a tangible divine that works to (usually) improve the world which has lost its god.

[@catbear6183]

The last one reminded me of the bell bearing hunters from elden ring, a group of aesetics that view the sharing of knowledge and merchandise as a sin, killing merchants and scholars. Could be fun to run something like that, even if its a worldview that falls apart under scrutiny

[@jamestitus472]

The only self-described cult is the catholic cult of the saints. I think this should be used as inspiration for more innocuous cults.

[@choczynski]

I would like for you to do a series of videos on this

[@danesmith2133]

If you want a really good definition and depiction for a cult read "Mind Control" by Dr. Haha Lung. He has a whole character on the subject, how they form, who's susceptible and how to recognize them and navigate through their recruitment process without frustration. Also breaks down how to recognize if someone can be mentally liberated from a cult.

[@krinkrin5982]

I remember reading somewhere, that the difference between a cult and religion is that religion has survived the death of its leader. I've also seen cult being used as the word for the worship practices of a specific deity in a pantheon.

[@MrInitialMan]

I do have a cult based lead by a charismatic Shape-shifting Demigod in one setting I have, and absolutely are there rewards for following him. And yes, it is about preparing for the End Times and the Final Battle, except nobody knows when that is. In the mean time, they learn survivalism, how to fight hand-to-hand (with regular tournaments featuring either one-on-one combat to teams of up to 20 each beating the hell out of each other), the lore this demigod teaches, etc. After these tournaments, these followers are healed up, but the more supernatural healing they receive, the less human they become, which they are told is part of this demigod's blessing. One thing I want to do through this is have someone thought to be brainwashed---but instead, he's legitimately happier than he's ever been.

[@Uriel238]

As a note, evil gods aren't _evil_ any further than having a designation on the alignment chart. They can be serious dicks: consider Adonai's flood, His orders to massacre entire tribes down to children and livestock, His acceptance of slavery and so on. Note also Zeus' deceptive relationship dysfunction, and insatiable lust, and Hera's tendency to exercise her wrath for her husband on his conquests (mortals, all of them). This never slowed down their respective ministries and followings. Also, taking a page from _Good Omens_ evil religions mellow out some after a few generations. Christianity today has to contend with ancient mores and creeds that don't fit with modern morality and have to negotiate with holy text to make it affirm contemporary notions like democratic rule, women's rights, LGBT tolerance, etc. So it actually makes sense in a polylatrist society that _evil_ gods would have significant ministries with ample followers, and would generally be mellow. And a god's followers wouldn't regard their god as evil no matter what their alignment stat says. They'll also have mellow mores that highlight reciprocity, avoidance of harm, loyalty to family and friends, and so on.

[@Quinz128]

I'm currently running a Pathfinder Game and I made a particular cult. They do worship an ancient God 'The Forgotten One" is what many call them as they are so old most forgotten about them, and the only reason that the worshippers know of them was direct influence from the God. The God itself is a being that is basically... incompatible with the life of the world because if it's corrupting influence and its difficulty in creating its own people. It is a god of knowledge, but not a god of creation. But it actively desires to interact with the lesser beings. It is seen as benevolent and is worshipped, mostly, by the abused and downtrodden, the people who were ignored by society and the active Gods of the current pantheon worshipped mainstream. Even a few priests of the current pantheon who interacted with religious leadership and have communed with the current Gods feel disillusioned. The Gods of the current pantheon are, effectively, like the Gods of Olympus. They are powerful beings, arrogant in their power and actively interact with the people from time to time. I originally did made this as a background 'issue' in the game, but they went to seek out the cultists and even had one join their group as they didn't see The Forgotten One as hostile and was convinced by one of the cult's leaders to even assist! So, now, they are on the quest to help bring the God to their world as the distance and barrier of the God that originally created the world wouldn't allow it to come without more worship and particular rituals from those the God influenced enough to become its 'Seers' as it calls them. They even succeeded in establishing one of the Seers and have even transformed a part of the region they travel into a corrupted land, breaking the land and causing it to shift and writhe with unusual life. Despite seeing the world break slightly with the influence of this God, they are still continuing... Because the God is not really evil. Just... incompatible with the world they are summoning it to. The God seems to legitimately want to bring others peace and comfort. It acts like a doting parental figure, despite being a dripping creature writhing in slime and tentacles that cannot keep a cohesive form for longer than a few minutes. The group even seen the afterlife that this God offers. In the current Pantheon, a Purificaton Ritual is required (Else the dead become undead) and then the soul sent to the City of the Dead to live out a time as a spirit, reform any additional corruption their soul has before being reincarnated into an infant, the infants considered the purest beings as they have just had their souls cleansed else they wouldn't be born. However, The Forgotten One's offer? Eternal community. In reincarnation, you lose who you were. You lose your connections. You risk living life again in the way you had before. Remember, the usual worshippers are the desperate, the depressed, the defeated, so many don't want to live again. They want to be at peace. As such the offer of joining this God, and all other worshippers, forever as a grand being a combination of souls comforted by one-another seems appealing. At least how I interpreted how others see things. But yes, the worshipping of obviously evil beings and such are difficult for me to understand as a widespread and threatening thing. Especially when the worshippers get nothing out of it, really. So I built the cult in my setting to have reasons, a God that while not good, isn't evil. I consider it a neutral deity. It accepts anyone who would call out to it, even imparting power to the evil as a group of Bandits that raid the riverside, for example.

[@CeleriaRosencroix]

Keep in mind that in the ancient world, cults would often just be an accepted part of local flavor, either representing a mysterious set of beliefs that promised a certain set of improvements to the personal condition of the participants (in this world or the next), or representing a foreign religion that was making in-roads into the area. Polytheistic societies would tend not to actually have any sort of major opposition to these sorts of groups, and may actually eventually embrace them in a major way by including the foreign god in the main pantheon (though often under at least a slightly different name). Now, since gods have stakes in fantasy societies, especially if those gods gain power from greater amounts of personal worship, it *may* well be that opposition to cults moving into an area may simply be a result of the local deities not wanting to share power with a foreign entity, because they play something close to a zero-sum game. I have certainly tended to interpret most cult-related disputes to stem from this sort of tension, at the very least. As an example in the Forgotten Realms: the Cult of the Dragon's latest iteration almost works in this fashion, insofar as it represents an attempt to spread worship of Tiamat from being primarily a Chromatic Dragon thing to something that is more broadly embraced by the masses. And sure, Tiamat is evil, and they do end up trying to summon her, but she is also a deity that is trapped in the divine realm of another entity, who at the time has come to believe that that other entity (Asmodeus) is disrespecting and compromising the agreement that saw her stationed there by not having the subservient entities under him properly respect her station and actively undermine her authority in Hell; therefore, she vies to have her worshipers enact a ritual that can allow her to be free from her obligations and presumably be free to set up her own divine realm somewhere else. In *theory,* this should be completely normal religious behavior, with clerics of the deity acting on its behalf to enact the deity's will and aid its ambitions in whatever way is possible. Unfortunately, the Cult of the Dragon is also a group that has been previously been acting as a terrorist organization for hundreds of years (which even Tiamat previously denounced, because she hates dracoliches and they very much did their best to bring them into the world), and Tiamat is a deity that almost everyone in the setting hates because her children are volatile jerks who predictably cause chaos across the land. So, quite predictably, everything goes to pot by the end of the series of adventures.

[@YTDariuS-my6dg]

I like the description of what NRMs do and why; I just want to point out that, in story, that doesn't necessarily mean that they CAN'T summon demons and the like, just that they can't view themselves as evil per se. For instance, the Mythic Dawn in Oblivion wants to summon Mehrunes Dagon, generally viewed as a god of destruction and symbolically equalized with the likes of fires, earthquakes and such natural disasters - but also holds, iirc, dominion over the idea of "rebellion" and "ambition" - the Mythic Dawn believe him to be the true master of the material world people live in, as all other Daedric Princes have their own slice of Oblivion (a sort of hell or purgatory dimension) and thus align with Mehrunes Dagon to place him as the rightful ruler of the world who would purge injustice, hypocrisy, racism and all other bad things - or something along those lines. Like you said, they THINK they're doing good and that, ostensibly, anyone trying to stop them is evil - but meta knowledge grants us the fact that Mehrunes Dagon is, in effect, basically just a divine serial killer who wouldn't particularly hesitate to murder every living being on Nirn if presented with the chance to do so.

[@remingtonwright6796]

In ancient Greece, a "cultist" was pretty much just anyone who didn't travel to a temple to pray or worship. They did all of their worshipping at home shrines or gathered with others for like, communal worship in homes or the woods. Basically, cultist just meant "you do things differently," and provided they weren't disrupting anyone's peace or safety, they were (usually) left alone.

[@UltraDonny5000]

You can tell a D&D video is good when it makes ideas go off in your head like popcorn. This video just tweaked every corner of my game world. Thank you.

[@caiodiniz7371]

I think one good representation of a cult was the Mythic Dawn in The Elder Scrolls series. They believed in the revelations of their god to their charismatic leader and that the estabilieshed religion and doctrine were lies, and they had a promissed paradise if they did their god's will. Their god was the god of Revolution and Change, and their goal was to destroy the pillars of the current society and world so that a "better" world could replace it

[@trolleymouse]

I think your head's stuck in the modern era. "Cult" in the fantasy sense comes more from the historical conceptualisation of the term, which is to say any religious band at all. The Cult of Deity X includes anyone who worships Deity X, follows the teachings of Deity X, and serves the will of Deity X on the mortal coil. Any player chararcter with a patron deity can be said to be part of the cult of that deity, whether or not they're part of the priesthood, eg clerics or paladins in D&D. If the game master only calls the bad guys cultists, that's on them.

[@Grungeon_Master]

I think that's a very fair point. I like to address topics from the cultural perspective when I can, from the way they're used in modernity. In this case there's a very valid discussion to be had about the ancient sense of 'cult', which I did fail to mention. However I don't see a return to the ancient 'cult' as a solution to this problem, as it's essentially just saying "hey, just make a religion instead". Creepy/evil/dark cults are an important feature of fantasy media, and this framework helps improve them, I feel, rather than replace them. Maybe I should make a future video on mystery cults. Maybe a discussion of initiation rituals, 'how to join a cult?' could be fun.

[@AedanTheGrey]

This largely my view of "cult" as a word as well. As he did point out, the modern definition is very american and christian influenced. A culture who is giddy to have a new word for heathen, pagan, infidel and have found it in cults.

[@TheLogicMouse]

An excellent example of a well-designed cult in recent D&D is the Followers of the Falling Fire from the Dungeon Dudes' Drakkenheim setting. They're a breakaway group from the major religion of the world, centered around a single charismatic leader who claims to have received visions of an impending apocalypse and be trying to organize enough people to stop it. And the best part is it's left for the DM of a particular campaign to decide whether or not she's right