Dangerous Caves for Mac Plus Update (CANCELLED!)

[@insanelygruz]

Well, it looks like Dangerous Caves might never see the light of day. But don't fret, all is not lost! This project has been a great learning experience for me, allowing me to dive into the world of vintage Mac coding - which was exactly what I was hoping for. So all's well that ends well, right? :) Stay tuned for my next Mac project!

[@FoxintoshPlus]

Are you planning on releasing the existing files onto macintosh garden or some platform in the near future?

[@Sinjinator]

I love this game! This should be finished. The trees and backgrounds and sounds are all great. And if anything you could put Dangerous Guy in any project as an Easter egg. ;)

[@EricsEdgeVideos]

I would love it with a level editor. Do minor releases. Build a framework that can be used by other developers?

[@nicomputerservices2669]

As a professional programmer I can tell you that the road to greatness is littered with a trail of dead projects like this. Every single one is a stepping stone to the next level and not one second that you spent on this was a waste of effort. I'm sure you learned a ton about game design, C programming, and the Mac and honestly I'm really blown away by the quality you were able to achieve in such a short time on some of those early builds with limited C experience and I think your builds right up to the last are really impressive. Developing for retro machines is really hard, honestly I feel like it helps keep me sharp for my day job since it throws a bunch of challenges into the mix that I don't normally get to encounter. Learning to properly organize a project in such a way that it is approachable is a tough thing to learn but it is something that comes with time and experience (and lots of failed attempts). You mentioned creating a level designer and one of the thing it took me a while to fully embrace is that your tools are everything. Putting the effort into building tools early and often to assist you is a real multiplier for your productivity and it moves a lot of code out of your project reducing it's complexity. I do think your game appeals to retro computer fans as is, I think a good game is a good game and the more good games a retro platform has the better and personally I wouldn't be concerned that wouldn't appeal to a retro mac audience. I think it's super cool when I see new stuff and think "wow, this would have been such a big hit in 198X!" I think that is a valid thing for sure. TLDR: Fantastic job, keep writing code, you the man :)

[@insanelygruz]

Thank you so much for your kind words! I walked away from this project with experience and confidence to keep moving forward. I like that stepping stone analogy -- very comforting! 😊

[@Mac84]

Thanks for releasing this video! You obviously put a lot of time and work into this, thank you for sharing your experience. I think releasing an original version of Dangerous Caves (before the rewrite) would be fantastic! I like the simple goals (get key, progress). I think having levels one a single screen can force some creativity and it reminds me of a lot of old games I used to play. So my vote would certainly be to revisit it at some point. As a collector, I don't think it needs to be Apple/Macintosh-focused to appeal to us. If the gameplay is fun (and it looks like it is), that's all that matters. I wish you all the best with your current and future projects!

[@atmaweapon2803]

Agree! It's the quality of the game that matters, in the end. And personally, I love a game that goes beyond the usual and feels "big." But that's just me. The idea of branching rooms and the feeling that you're exploring one big cave is a great one, but having individual rooms and a level editor would have more of a classic coffee table Mac feel. Either way, don't toss those beautiful overland bitmaps with the moon and trees.

[@insanelygruz]

Thanks Steve! I agree as well, the original 1 screen version would probably be the one I revisit. In my opinion the Mac or retro computer theme would be immensely easier to market to people who don't know me or the project. I think someone new would be much more likely to give the game a chance if it had that familiarity and playfulness that a theme like that would convey. Maybe I'm thinking too much about it lol

[@IrisGalaxis]

Man, this game is extremely cool. The art style is spiffing, the concept is timeless, it's beautiful and I'd really love to see you finish it.

[@animalinho1983]

I actually LOVE the way the re-written version of the game looks and would definitely like to see it done!

[@atmaweapon2803]

Man, the graphics and feel of Dangerous Caves is amazing. It's exactly the kind of game I would have wanted on my Mac Plus back in the day (reminds me of a 1-bit version of Ambrosia Software's Ferazel's Wand). I think overthinking the market for your game creates worse games. If the game is good, people will play it. We are all from the computer generation, we all like a great game. I think you have an artistic vision for Dangerous Caves, and we make art for, in the end, ourselves. Putting a little Mac dude in place of your character would be funny, but it wouldn't be art. The games that most hardcore Mac people remember most fondly is stuff like Dark Castle, Escape Velocity, Might & Magic, Exile, Cythera, Mantra, Ray Dunakin's Another Fine Mess...these are the greats of the canon of classic Mac games for a reason: they were probably birthed in the madcap daydreams of creators that envisioned something more than a simple timewaster. The games like you describe, something where you're a Mac Performa shooting IBM PCs with a chain gun...those got lost in the shuffle. Here's the too long didn't read version: ultimately, we make games for ourselves, and passion projects are infinitely valuable, regardless of the size of the audience. And collectors WILL play your game. The quality speaks for itself: these graphics are better than most games released back then. Your bitmap graphics are absolutely gorgeous.

[@atmaweapon2803]

As an addendum, if all else fails, you should consider developing a 1-bit style version of the game for modern computers. It's got a cool look. You've kind of inspired me to consider it as an aesthetic in the future for my projects.

[@insanelygruz]

Thank you for your kind words! My thoughts were that a vintage computer theme would make it much more marketable to people who don't know anything about the project. That familiarity and absurdity would be funny and people might give the game a chance. Maybe I am overthinking it though... I also like that idea of a modern computer version -- it's absolutely possible! 👍

[@atmaweapon2803]

@@insanelygruz thanks for the response. This has kind of egged me on! I've got a modern Windows game in the works myself, but I've always wanted to do a classic Mac game for the fun of it. What 68k compiler do you suggest for C development? Heh, the Sprite Animation Toolkit. Ingemar Ragnemalm...that is a name I haven't heard in decades.

[@atmaweapon2803]

@@insanelygruz on another note: say I wanted to go down the BASIC route instead of C. Have you ever used FutureBasic or something similar? (I know Al Staffieri of GameMaker fame used FutureBasic to create his famous adventure game authoring program)

[@insanelygruz]

@@atmaweapon2803 I don't have any experience with BASIC on Mac so I'm not sure. Would probably be an ok tool for PPC Macs but I can't see it being very good on 68K machines. I use Think C v5 myself, but here is a setup guide for version 6: tinkerdifferent.com/resources/think-c-development.84/ There's also a study group to learn C for the Mac here: tinkerdifferent.com/threads/study-group-0-getting-your-development-environment-setup-hello-world.1754/

[@excessionary]

I think it looks very appealing! The graphics in the last version are especially nice, and the smooth movement is impressive on the Mac Plus with that much happening on screen (eg, bouncing boulder). While I'd love to play the game, I think you're always best working on what you love. If that's a new or different project, great! What you've learned making Dangerous Caves will be to the advantage of any new project you are passionate about. But do keep it as a momento - it's cool!

[@ScarletSwordfish]

I am sad to hear that you canceled this game. I remember the preview you showed of it in an older video and I was excited for it! But I understand how it feels to lose steam and how hard it is to go back to something years later, when you completely forgot what you did or how you did it. I really like the look of the last build - the graphical style of the backgrounds and platforms and sprites looks really good. I like Dangerous Guy too, he's very cute. The last build is very much the kind of game I would love to play on my Mac Plus - there really aren't many run & jump style platformers like this for the system. A big, maybe immature, part of me wants to prove that classic Macs could have games that are still playable and fun by modern standards. I really wouldn't expect a game like this to be specifically Mac-themed - it could stand on its own theming.

[@insanelygruz]

Thank you for the kind words! I had put a lot of time in on the artwork but wasn't very confident in it at the time. I remember the focus on Dangerous Guy was to make him visible in contrast to the background -- which is why I gave him that big white head and the white spots on his hands and feet!

[@vjspectron]

"I made his sprite in ResEdit" is some deep Mac! Really cool to see you have the skills to do this for a vintage Mac!

[@JimLeonard]

Great experiment! In the future, don't worry about disk space; there are free compression schemes you can use like ZX0 that have free fast decompression code. Those background bitmaps would compress quite a lot.

[@braillynn]

I’ve been learning about the Macintosh in anticipation of trying it out when I finally get a MiSTer. I gotta say that your demo is really impressive and I’m sad to see you didn’t finish it. Hopefully one day you can! I’d love to program for an old computer some day and find your demo very inspirational. Something like this would not only be great for the Mac but also the Playdate handheld. You’d be surprised how many people would be into this game.

[@MattsTech]

Pretty neat to see a behind-the-scenes perspective on a project like this, though quite a bummer it won't be releasing, at least, anytime soon. The graphics look great, and it really performs well, from the looks of it! I'd love to see this game finished and released to the public, I'm sure I'd really enjoy it! :D

[@MB-nm8tt]

I want to see this finished. This is incredible!

[@CriminalCaterpillar]

I think this is great! I'd love to see the game finished. I think there are some things you can do to optimize things so you don't have pre-made bitmaps using up all your disk space. A lot of the elements that make up your screen are not unique, so you could have smaller bitmaps, and just reuse them in different arrangements to make up the backgrounds you want. I think a modern platformer for the Mac Plus is a great idea!

[@and6239]

Excited to hear about the new project!

[@Gecko1993HogheadIncOfficial]

I’d like to see it completed sometime in the future; but as it stands, take what you learned from it, move on, and maybe come back to it with a clear enough mind. Take it easy, and have fun with that new project!

[@macobyte]

This is really impressive. It looks like it plays very smoothly!

[@joel_ricci]

Man, this game looks so good and it got such a unique graphical style. As a programmer I completely understand your pain but I'm telling you, what you achieved here is beyond what most people (myself included) ever have achieved. I think you perhaps need some kind of story for your game though, even a very vague one. The level probably need a bit more challenge, like flying enemies, projectiles or whatever to make it even more "puzzley". Or try coming up (yes I know, not easy) with a unique twist or game mechanic. Ironically I think this game would do great on other platforms, such as Nintendo Switch or PC. Cheers!

[@HunterPBrown]

Keep your dreams alive gruz

[@gasperbarone]

Great work! I can see your experience with vintage macs and games was a great teacher for you to create a really nice looking product. If I had a classic max I’d be interested in buying this game!

[@alwinter]

This is really cool. I remember Ingemar for his Skiing Game (wrong side, ack!) as well as a few of his other titles. But I never knew about his toolkit and I wish I did. I would totally play Dangerous Caves if you should decide to ever finish it!

[@tangentspace]

thanks for sharing your journey!

[@beeto45]

i liked the second version and it would have been cool if at least the last level would have been easy to finish with more than one exit and just a simplle outdoors drawing that says END.

[@London_Native]

If you ever do finish it, I would definitely play it, it looks fun!!

[@Venatius]

Even if the game's a no-go, I'm glad you took away a good new learning experience from this. Loving the graphics on the protagonist! The face and his eager fidgety idle animation are quite charming for simple 1-bit graphics. The movement looks nice and smooth too.

[@wyglif]

I had that Dave Mark as well. I had trouble with the pointer topics as QuickBasic didn't really prepare me for that. I wouldn't mind reading it again, but not sure what happened to it. The included THINK C didn't allow for toolbox calls, but I later bought a book that included the standard version of CodeWarrior. The teaching style of the book was a bit odd and I didn't grasp it as well as I wish I could have.

[@matthewmartin238]

Love your videos! The progress you did make looks really good, and the experience of doing so will probably help with the next games. The animation of "Dave" in these builds looks awesome!

[@ravuya]

Getting smooth-moving platforming is hard even with the help of SAT! Nice work, and the next will be even better.

[@insanelygruz]

Yes! Thank you! 😁

[@kshadehyaena]

I have an SE FDHD and I would totally play this.

[@Tayra_Reberta]

Can you make Dangerous Caves like a Fire and Ice game? Use what you have in the second build as a hub world and use the other mini levels that you made as different levels so that each crystal you have unlocks the new level? I think that probably would be nice and you don't have to worry about dumping everything you have, and you should be able to fit it all on a single floppy. That might be a good way to go. I think if you wanted to do a Metroidvania style of Dangerous Caves you'd have to move up to Commodore 64, Spectrum, or the NES to get something like that. But a Fire and Ice style game seems like a good way to go for Mac I feel. It's simple and shouldn't take up too much space on your floppy.

[@kirishima638]

This is super cool. I love the artwork and the little character animation in particular. Thank you so much for this. I've made a few small B&W games for vintage macs recently. I chose to implement the sprite handling myself using CopyMask and UnionRect; it's not THAT hard. SAT is fantastic but I really wanted to learn the fundamentals myself. It's too easy to run before you can walk with tools like that. The biggest issue I ran into is that the games I made just weren't fun. FlappyBird is fun. Snake and Breakout clones are not fun. I really wanted to make a grand strategy game like Warlords but who would sit down and actually play it? So short of the wonder of seeing my game running on old hardware, it just wasn't interesting enough to finish when I could put the same effort in software for modern systems that people will actually play. I will say that programming the classic mac is a LOT easier than programming the modern mac or PC where you're required to master so many tools just to put a sprite on the screen. This is funny because back in the 80s/90s, programming the mac Toolbox was supposed to be a lot of work but it really isn't thanks to resources and a well thought out API (compared to Win32 or xlib anyway). And a binary built with Think C is ready to go. No need to mess with bundles or .plists or libraries or manifests or installers or signing. Computers have just gotten too complicated for the lone hobbyist. A common mistake that I think most programmers have made, is the desire to re-write something from scratch once the code has gotten too complex. This just sucks energy and enthusiasm out of a project and remains a common problem to day, with developers chasing the latest toolkit, framework or platform. It's much better and more rewarding to gradually improve the existing code (with source control of course!).

[@insanelygruz]

I started out trying to do sprites myself, with the help of "Tricks of the Mac Game Programming Gurus" but I couldn't find the spare time to learn everything. There was so much to it that eventually I gave up. When I found SAT I felt like it was finally in reach and gave me a foot in the door getting the annoying parts and foundation out of the way. From there I had the freedom and motivation to explore the Toolbox and figure a lot out myself. It has been several years since I have made a game for modern PCs (never for modern Mac) but modern game engines with built in development environments like Construct and GMS will spit out a binary compatible with everything. In my opinion it's the way to go for the lone hobbyist -- using a tool that has a dev team behind it and a lot of good support. The LÖVE and Allegro "engines" are also very intriguing!

[@kirishima638]

@@insanelygruz By programming modern machines I meant using the native API being AppKit or WinUI 3. Game makers typically use Unreal or some similar pre-rolled engine. I don't find that interesting at all. Even SDL is a little too 'high level' for my liking. Yes I based my sprites on tutorials from "Tricks of the Mac Game Programming Gurus" along with some use of VBL tasks that it doesn't cover (old Macs spend every 1/60th of a second basically doing nothing because they're supposedly waiting for an electron gun to be dragged across the phosphors of a 9 inch screen to update the image. And macs all the way up until OS X kept the interval for compatibility. That's a HUGE amount of wasted resources by modern standards. You can however install a VBL task that can run during that time to get some 'free' processing. It was real eureka moment for me). It's a great book but I find it interested that SAT is barely mentioned, despite the author writing a significant part of it. What I enjoy about development on the old mac is that you can write direct to the hardware; pixels to display on the screen or speaker movements to make sound. All that is impossible on modern machines that forces you to learn and use complex abstractions like DirectX or Metal.

[@insanelygruz]

@@kirishima638 I just learned about the video memory and how QuickDraw works not too long ago. Would be fun to try some experiments sometime. The vintage Mac community needs more people like you who understand and are intrigued by the software aspect. You are on another level! 👍

[@kirishima638]

@@insanelygruz thank you. I envy you for at least getting something out there. I’m looking into writing some tutorials or at least putting up some articles.

[@drywinddotnet]

Great chronology of development. I for one would love more primers on how to get started programming C on the Mac (coming from Hypercard and Director). Perhaps releasing a part of the unfinished D.C. on GitHub?

[@insanelygruz]

There is a study group learning C on the Mac on the Tinker Different forums. Might be worth looking into: tinkerdifferent.com/threads/study-group-0-getting-your-development-environment-setup-hello-world.1754/

[@JapanPop]

I would play this, heck yes. Give it a great back story!

[@jonathansmith2168]

I have a Macintosh SE and if you ever complete your platformer I would be happy to play it.

[@a4e69636b]

I want to see this game finished please.

[@xenocide2121]

dude this is amazing im sad this is not gonna happen T_T

[@BrainSlugs83]

Just go with the old version, and full tilt into the cave theme. No reason to make the game mascot be a classic Mac or anything like that, just keep it simple and make it fun, and people will treasure it. Also, use source control (like git or bzr) so you can recover from mistakes easily. Good luck, Gruz!

[@insanelygruz]

That's what everyone's telling me -- use source control. Not a "professional" programmer over here but I think I need to look into it... Thanks!

[@1BitFeverDreams]

I concur, and besides, you've done the fan service for classic Mac collectors in Flappy Mac already.

[@ripthedvd9728]

I actually think the game looks really interesting. I wish you would release the final build of the original version so I can fire it up in sheepshaver. Especially if you released the source code, I could imagine this being a really cool web game or resource for people to learn coding.

[@IsaacKuo]

Honestly, something more like Crystal Quest or Robotron seems more interesting to me. This sort of platformer feels, to me ... well, it's like double resolution ZX Spectrum. There are SO many Spectrum platformers with this sort of look - just at half the resolution. I think mouse+keyboard controls are more interesting for a Mac game. Like, maybe something that moves like Crystal Quest but allows shooting in other directions - the keyboard controls let you rotate left/right. It could be 8 directional, or maybe more directions. Or simple Centipede movement, but allowing shooting in other directions. I mean ... I found the inability to shoot in different directions a bit frustrating in Crystal Quest, but for me aiming in MacBugs was absolutely infuriating. It was just so hard to aim right! Using keys to rotate aim would have been so much nicer, I think.

[@insanelygruz]

Yes, exactly. I don't think I used the mouse at all in Dangerous Caves which was disappointing when I realized it. DC could have come out on any platform. I tried to tack on some mouse control at the end but it felt terrible... The Mac was all about the mouse so I am making sure to make good use of it in my new project! 👍

[@DevilsHandyman]

The game before the rewrite seems like it would be fun to play without mac theming.

[@Minglator]

It looks great! I think you shouldn’t care too much about it being Mac themed, your KZbin channel is the built in audience that will play it.

[@onigvd77]

very cool Gruz a cool game I would pay to play it, hope you end up something like this or inspired by it one day :)

[@SECONDQUEST]

If I had a dime for every time my project stopped for whatever reason I would probably be drowning in dimes.

[@ActionRetro]

NGL I would play the crap out of these - either version.

[@insanelygruz]

Yeah there was nothing really like it on the Mac Plus... Maybe one day there will be!

[@aasfasfaa]

I love the rewritten version.

[@CDiArcade]

Was this game going to be an homage to Dangerous Dave? I remember playing that on DOS ages ago.

[@insanelygruz]

Nah, but the name is close!

[@commonsense5729]

I would Play it

[@hfric]

Push it on Ichio ... people there are hungry for Retro platformers ... not to mention many people there push new Amiga\C64\Genesis games

[@derekengler9216]

It looks great! Just keep coding, lol. Or work on the new and improved game you're going with. I'm sure that if you could port it into different things like NES!! Now that would be so epic, just as much. But I doubt the two are pretty far and far between. However, I'm very impressed with the work and how it looks, keep it going bro. Cheers!

[@messij]

I want this game to feed my Mac Plus !!! Thx

[@Seegtease]

If it can run on an emulator, you could definitely release this game to the masses but also have it remain functional on classic macs.

[@insanelygruz]

Yeah it was a careful balance to keep it functional on the Mac Plus's 68000 processor -- it was so slow! Even a 68020 could do so much more...

[@1BitFeverDreams]

Achieving Mac Plus fluid platforming game development is a major milestone (source: it's been my obsession for 17 years, the eternal project that can't concentrate enough on, on my site foray to 68k) so treat it as a learning step, not a failure, on the contrary.

[@insanelygruz]

Absolutely! This project taught me more than any before and since, too. You gotta get your game done -- would love to play it!

[@rachelaudrey6241]

Definitely disagree, I'd love more proper games like this for vintage Mac, as opposed to stereotyping for an audience that may not even be there.

[@MarquisDeSang]

You could package it with an emulator and sell it on Steam. I would buy it.

[@insanelygruz]

I thought about it, but found that the emulators require a Macintosh ROM, which is owned by Apple...