Snub Nose Battle of the FBI Loads - Remington HTP VS Federal 38G

[@oldcop18]

This was our issued ammo when we still carried revolvers. I was forced into an on duty shooting in the early ‘80s and it dropped the suspect, freeing his hostage.

[@shadowwolf9503]

I love hearing your stories about your experiences. I'm glad you survived and really appreciate your service Sir.

[@oldcop18]

@@shadowwolf9503Thx, it’s good to be retired!

[@samslaughter6828]

I agree JSO. 7078 JAX.FL.​@@oldcop18

[@bertrandlewis4906]

Did you ever feel outgunned being armed with only 18 shots on your belt?

[@oldcop18]

@@bertrandlewis4906Not really but we transitioned to the Glock 19 sometime in the ‘80s so w/two spare mags we had plenty of ammo for the fight.

[@PassivePortfolios]

There was considerable political opposition to "dum-dum" expanding bullets, especially in NY city. The politicians alleged that the expansing bullets caused unnecessary pain and suffering, even death of the criminals. Some cops refused to use the 38 Special RNL aka "The Widowmaker" round and bought their own ammo. The police union lawyers advised that hollowpoint ammo was safer to bystanders because it had less penetration so the NY city politicians finally dropped their opposition to hollow point bullets. NYPD adopted the FBI load which was considered high technology at that time. It remains very effective and hard to beat. Thanks for the interesting test.

[@Ifoughtpiranhas]

I remember those days when the NYPD was stuck using bad performing bullets because of political and media pressure. Nowadays we can thank the NYPD for being the inspiration for the Gold Dot 135 grain +P load in .38 Special for the officers still carrying 38's under the "grandfather" clause.

[@rwm4738]

NYC politicans, always looking out for the orcs.

[@mikewithers299]

​@@rwm4738carrying on that tradition even as we speak 🤣🤣

[@michaelrocole7174]

Key word politician’s………

[@golferpro1241]

@@Ifoughtpiranhasthey can no longer carry them. They ended it a few years ago.

[@adamerson]

Buffalo Bore and Underwood both make a version of this load; it would be interesting to see all 4 of them side by side.

[@lil1941]

YES. I hope it happens on this channel.

[@357Shakey]

The Buffalo Bore are loaded closer to what the older rounds were loaded to. For most manufactures. the loadings - both normal and +p - have decreased over the years.BB may seem to be "hot", but they are more representative of the level loads used to be loaded to.

[@1elwgreen]

Agreed. I shot the Federal 38G and the Underwood in my LCRX. All I can add is that when shooting one handed the Underwood kind of hurt. The Federal not so much. Couldn't tell any difference when shooting two handed.

[@murrayjimm]

This is a great video for those of us that still carry small snub nose.

[@dangerman007]

I've always liked the Remington load, strictly on the softness of the lead. I can see why this performed well back in the day. A good heavy round that expands and penetrates enough to do the job well.

[@jimmyruger7529]

Hi , its your Buckeye neighbor to the South. Still following you, all these years, and still loving my wheel collectors. I often use your past videos for reference. Enjoy the Summer

[@hillbillyscholar8126]

I recall the Winchester version of this offering was the hottest of the three at nearly 1k fps. I suppose that is why it was formed with harder lead. I used the Speer Lawman offering in my .38 Special duty revolver. It was moving at about 950 fps. as I recall. I never doubted in it.

[@PassivePortfolios]

Speer Lawman is one of the best 38 Special rounds today.

[@clanrobertson7200]

Great information to us laymen. I was gifted a Colt Detective 38 Special in stainless I believe. It was new in like 1964 I believe and was a family defense weapon that a practical outdoorsman doctor (a rare person today) and I don’t think it was ever shot, and I am 76 and use it for my daily carry in the winter months and really need to exercise it at the range. Like most CC people, I hope to never need to use it, but it is better to have it than not.

[@sombra6153]

I’m glad you’re covering the “St. Louis” load. I remember that Federal, Winchester, and Remington 158 SWCHPL +P cartridges were all on the federal ammo contract listings. As late as the early 2000s I recall seeing boxes of Federal, Winchester, and Remington rounds on gun vault shelves even though the FBI had long since switched to the Federal Hydra Shok 147 grain +p+ for revolvers and the bunch I worked for followed the bureau’s lead on ammo selection. By that time, however, the 158s were relegated to training ammo status for those few who were safety conscious and still hadn’t switched to a baby Glock for backup or undercover guns.

[@troy9477]

I have been following wound ballistics since i eas a teen in the 80's, in the gunzines (dating myself). These loads came out commercially in 1972. They may have been available to LE a few months sooner. Over the decades (say 2 decades), a lot of felons wee checked into morgues with 1 or 2 of these lodged in their back muscles, well expanded. They almost never seemed to overpenetrate. From 4" barrels they usually expanded to .52-.54", which is excellent, sought after 1.5x expansion. In early FBI gel tests, they usually penetrated 14-16" as you got here. I believe they were used as a benchmark in the FBI tests. Let's not forget that Ed Mireles heroically ended the Miami shootout firing these from his 4" 586 (FBI agenst were not allowed to carry magnum ammo; they had to use these from the issued 3" M13 or privately owned revolvers they chose to carry). From a snubby they generally expanded a bit less and penetrated a bit more, as in your results here. As a few commenters pointed out, the 135 gr +p Gold Dot load seems to be the modern version of this, optimized for snubbies. I am retired now, but started my career with my 4" 686, then went to a P229 in 40. I still have both (they were both mine). My current nightstand gun for a few years has been a nicely accurate 2" M64, loaded with the Buddalo Bore version of this, which approaches 1000 fps and has performed exceptionally well in testing i have seen. Thanks for the test. STAY SAFE!

[@stainlessj1607]

I just ordered a box of those federal rounds. I had heard good things about the legendary FBI Load. This was a great video. Please keep them coming.

[@cal30m1]

In the late 70’s my department still used 158gr lead round nose. Old timers back then talked about 38/44 special loads that they used in the 40’s and 50’s. (They were still lead round nose), not sure what the weight was.

[@brianmoore1164]

Great test and I have been enjoying your old school cool loadings. The updated Underwood +p version looked like it could stand up with anything out there.

[@adamsaylor7427]

I’m probably going to switch to an FBI load for my J Frame here soon. Thanks so much for the video as always

[@johnochicago8457]

How do we get the lead out of the barrel? Hoppe's and others don't remove lead. Thanks

[@lil1941]

I'm so glad you did a head to head on these two rounds. Thanks a bunch!

[@wemcal]

Great video.. I use federal +p in a 4inch and my wife the same in a 2 inch.. in the late 80s we carried SW13 357s.. some of the guys would use 38+p.. we called them 38 hot loads

[@cousinvinnie2180]

Thanks for this very informative test..... I have been running Buffalo Bore 158 SWCHP +P with excellent results...

[@jasonshults368]

Let's be honest: you haven't been running in a long time.

[@justinbushman277]

@@jasonshults368 ?

[@thomastune776]

Great demo. Thanks for the history too👍

[@JasonBrown-vn1zz]

The one bullet I loved on 38 special was the 146 gr sjhp but you can't find them anymore I haven't seen them anywhere for a long time

[@davezinetti666]

Actually the +p load is what the STANDARD load was back during the 60s 70s.

[@iconofsin5886]

So that means these loads are actually lower than what the cops were issued?

[@nathanminich8549]

I’ve been waiting for this video

[@CaribouDataScience]

I remember one Christmas I got a (toy) Snub Nose 38 with a shoulder holster.

[@bobcatforever3485]

GS. Always a good and interesting video. Thanks for sharing and take care.

[@GunSam]

Thank you. Take care

[@edsal26]

Thank you for doing these types of testing so that I don’t have to do them myself. I like your attention to detail.

[@Steve-yo4ld]

I have come full circle with carry ammo and came back to this very load! Underwoods 158+P SWCP! Time tested!✌️

[@herrenhajji]

Are you using this in an airweight J frame? Looking for a good round for my 442.

[@ED-2.0.9.]

​@herrenhajji try Remington HTP 110gn Standard Pressure or Plus +. GunSam's got reviews on both you can find to search.

[@Steve-yo4ld]

@@herrenhajji Similarly, I have an S&W M&P Bodyguard. Weights 14 ozs and is Plus P rated! Handel's them well!✌️

[@herrenhajji]

Thanks! I have critical defense 110 +p now but need to try more loads to find what shoots most true to the sights and has good performance on these tests.

[@ED-2.0.9.]

@@herrenhajji actually Hornady Crit Defense 110gn +P may well be about your all’round best option truth be told. Again GunSamAF has got reviews on it (and would likely echo the recommend). The Rem HTP 110gn’s were a personal fav as, back in the day, they were sold in 50 round boxes and were only a few cents a round more expensive than UMP RN Plinking ammo. Now they are sold in 20 rd box’lets, and are abt as expensive as Hrndy Crit Def. Critical Def also has that pointed polly tip which lends itself to cylinder chamber insertion. If you haven’t yet acquired any SafariLand Comp 1 (press to release) speed loaders **THAT** shud be your next purchase!

[@CTCAC2000]

I just noticed your sweatshirt. Awesome!

[@grahammctygue724]

Many thanks for showing,telling how well revolvers work still in some situations 🎉🎉😊

[@MPGunther1]

Interesting results and an excellent video production

[@robertowen3933]

Nice test. I carried this round for a few years in my off duty S&W 38. My department was like most large departments in the US only adopting hp ammo when the evidence was overwhelming it was safer than fmj. Still capable but several manufacturers have better versions.

[@michaelgraham8854]

I remember Sampson ammo making a very good 158 grain LSWCHP I think IWA imported it

[@GunSam]

lol, I have a few boxes of Sampson .38 Special 158 gr SJHP ammo. They have a 1983 manufacture date. I ran them through the chronograph and they showed their age. Got several in my 4" barrel doing about 1,150 -1,200 FPS, then all the sudden there would be like 900 and 800 FPS reads, then 1,000, then 900, 1,200. All over the place.

[@boostimalaka1]

@@GunSamA good video would to demonstrate using older ammunition. When I went through the Academy. The firearms instructor recommended to remove the ammunition from the magazines to preserve the springs when off for a few days. We had noticed bullet setbacks. The Department put a notice to inspect ammunition for bullets that appeared to look shorter to other bullets. We were no longer following that trend of removing the ammunition from our magazines weekly as the springs were getting worn out quicker. If the ammunition is kept properly stored. You can get optimal performance with quality ammunition.

[@ronaldlollis8895]

IWI also had a 90gr round nose jacketed soft point in .357M, a relative gifted me a handful of them, I tried a couple at the range on old tires, definitely hot and fast, nothing over a chrony, so I can’t validate numbers though. I haven’t seen any at shows or old stores, no telling if a useable amount exists anywhere for testing.

[@matthewanderson9912]

Great video. The Remington is what it’s my Ruger LCRx 357 Magnum carry gun. The accuracy I can achieve with it plus the performance I have tested with ut is worth giving up a true Magnum in my opinion. At 44 yards I still got expansion in a gallon water jug from my Ruger. I was impressed. The Federal seemed to perform well too though so I wouldn’t be against going with it but like you said, the Remington is pretty easy to find.

[@BrandonLeeBrown]

I remember the FBI carrying S&W Model 13 revolvers with three inch barrels. The agents had a choice of 38 Special 158 grain SWC HP's or 357 Magnum 145 grain Silvertips.

[@NoFuxLeft2Give]

TBH, I think the Buffalo Bore & Underwood standard pressure lswchp loads are the best of that ammo type. I've found that the Buffalo Bore shoots more accurately out of my m&p 340, but the Underwood's accuracy is perfectly acceptable. The BB is very smokey, while the UW is not, due to the coating. The UW seems to generate a bit more recoil.

[@hillbillyscholar8126]

To be fair they use gas checked bullets and are thus only similar in a fleeting way. The bullets can be made softer to aid expansion and the check allows higher velocity than swaged bullets without leading. The big manufacturers had to keep the price competitive for big contracts thus the use of unchecked bullets.

[@NoFuxLeft2Give]

​@@hillbillyscholar8126 Not to mention that the BB & UW are good bit more pricey.

[@tribalismsucks7784]

At one time the US Customs Service used a .38 Special +P+, 147 grain jacketed hollow point. The last one used was +P 135 grain. They had to stop using +P+ when they switched out of the CS1 which was basically .357 S&W Model 65 with failure inducing overheat issues. Still, I'd love to have one. My last issued 5 shot was a 1 7/8" model 60. I purchased a 3" model 60 with adjustable sights from the S&W pro shop to use at work. IT WAS AWESOME! I think I was the last revolver carrier. I was forced to give up its usage in 2017. I still have it though.

[@GunSam]

I actually plan on testing that Hydrashok 147 +P+. I found a box online that I plan on picking up, less than $1 a round too.

[@theoriginalOSOK]

Came back to watch again. Heads up to anyone wanting to get some of this ammo - as I type this, Midway has the Remington on sale for a little under $16/box of 20 - they are giving free shipping with orders over $99 - I did do a quick ammoseek and found three other sources for less but the shipping was high... so

[@davidlee8551]

Excellent tests. I appreciate your opinions based on your experience.

[@techfixr2012]

I would like to see how the cor-bon and buffalo bore versions stack up against each other through a 4 inch barrel.

[@JeffreyCotle]

Gun Sam awsome video. This was the very best one yet. I love 38 spl. And shoot almost all lead bullets. . God bless.😊

[@GunSam]

Thanks

[@CeltKnight]

It's fun to realize that before all the high-zoot, double-naught cool bullet technology of today these "primitive" rounds were doing just fine in real world shootings. There just seems to be something about the .38 special (especially +p) that seems just about the perfect balance in performance and shootability. My daily "always gun" that I have on me pretty much all the time including non-permissive work environment (gee, why did they hire retired cops for security except to know we'd be armed? :p ) is a S&W 442. My current loading is 125 gr +p Silvertips (old ones) but my alternative is Federal 158 gr +p Nyclad LSWCHPs. The little beast shoots great with them and such has been getting the job done for a long time.

[@GunSam]

I found those Nyclads online. I might pick them up for testing. About $1 a round 50 round box, not bad for vintage ammo.

[@robertseafield5810]

Good video. During the Obama shortage, I came across a fresh box of this load. I was carrying a 4 inch K frame at this time. It is my habit to test fit each carry round in each chamber. None of them would chamber. I found that the crimp was never done at the factory. So, I used my Lee Factory Crimp die to put a max crimp on them. Velocity was 905 fps in the 4 inch and 880 fps in a 3 inch. Velocity only varied about 5 fps. I fired half the box to see if any other problems came up. In the "Handgun Stopping Power" books, this load ended up with a 75% one shot stops from a 4 inch barrel rating.

[@JasonHenderson]

How many people did you kill to come up with these statistics? 🤣

[@rogerloess2379]

Need more vids on classic loads like this. Keep it up

[@duaneridings6591]

Great video Sam

[@14goldmedals]

The 158gr +P HPWC was the ammo for Canada’s RCMP for decades. Winchester and Federal were the usual suspects. I still have a few boxes of the Winchesters in the white box with red and orange stripes. The lead looks a lighter grey and feels harder to cut with tools. Never found Win ammo since before 1995 up here. I trained Brinks guards with their S&W Mod. 10 4” wheelers circa 1995-2005 and they provided cases of the Federal load for outdoors and a Canadian made no lead primer and TMJ super clean 125gr ammo. Street load was 125gr +P Gold Dots. 9mm replacement ammo was judged by how well it performed against the Fed load from a 5” Mod 10. Rem Brass Jacket HP 124gr was the initial ammo chosen back then. Hope my experiences help. Cheers. 🇨🇦🇺🇸

[@GlenMones-le6yf]

Back in the 1970s and 1980s we carried 38 specials and we had to carry 38 hardball 😂.. most of these to spare ammo was carried in belt loops 😂

[@letsdothis9063]

My dad's dept carried .357. they had the belt loops as well.

[@paulmartin6895]

That a good test . This explained alot . From what i was told about years ago about the ammo that was used at the time in the late 60s and 70s. My dad always talked about the dum dum bullets.

[@mkshffr4936]

Nice loads. I appreciate that you test stuff outside the latest hotness. I have an idea that is way outside the box but may be of interest to the cowboys. Could you test Cowboy Action flat point loads in .38/.357, .44 Spl/Mag, and 45 Colt in 4-5" barrels. What I have in mind is what one can expect if you are caught having to defend yourself with your competition ammo (but not mouse fart loads). I may be weird - OK I am definitely weird- but I think it would be interesting.

[@JeffreyCotle]

Hi gun Sam awsome video. I really like 158 grn lead 38 spl. I cast .my own from pure soft lead. I size and gascheck them. They are very accurate at std pressure. . Ive shot groundhogs with my ruger blackhawk revolver 7" barrel. And it messes them up. Ive taken them at over 30 yards. And its like shooting my ruger single six 22. God bless. Awsome. And always impressive shooting. With the little guns.😊😊

[@garyK.45ACP]

Include the Buffalo Bore 158 gr. +P Lead SWC HP. I think you did a video on those at one time. It is what I carry in all my .38 Special and .357 Magnum snob nosed revolvers (1-7/8", 2" and 2-1/2") It delivers (chronographed) 971 fps from a S&W J frame 1-7/8", 1003 fps from a 2" Colt Detective Special and 1021 fps from a 2-1/2" S&W Model 19. Perfect expansion in gel for all three.

[@GunSam]

My last video is with the Underwood version, near identical load. It gave me 999 FPS on average in this 2" barrel and it performed well. I released it 4 days ago. I don't include stuff like that in one test, as I am going with older specific loadings of it that were around before Buffalo Bore and Underwood, and ones rated at 890 FPS specifically, and ones used by law enforcement.

[@garyK.45ACP]

@@GunSam Thanks

[@mikewithers299]

​@GunSam I wonder now that you got my mind on reloading. Is there a recipe for that Winchester load, or is that a trade secret? Would be cool to make your own as I'm sure you've already thought about.

[@GunSam]

@@mikewithers299 I have never loaded them specifically, but it wouldn't be that hard to do. All you need is to have a .357 Magnum revolver, and experiment with powders and loads, potentially going a tad over charge until you get one that gives the right velocity. If that experiment is within the parameters of known load data, then there you go, if it's close enough, good enough too. I never felt the need to replicate them though, you would specifically need whatever bullets Winchester uses, and I don't know where to obtain them. Hornady and Speer make ones you can buy that are 158 LSWCHP, but again I don't know what Winchester uses.

[@mikewithers299]

@@GunSam thanks Sam. I want to have my own loads that work with the 60-15. When I get the loading equipment I will be trying all kinds of things. Of course i will follow proven loads first to get a feel, then adjust in small increments to see what it likes. Kinda like a science project but volatile 🤣

[@fbweaver63]

thank you again. great work.

[@revv45acp71]

Helpful and informative. Thanks.

[@willcravens2893]

great info, thanks for sharing

[@lifewithabe312]

You should buy a Heritage Roscoe 2inch and give us a review. Been watching your channel for years. Never gets old

[@theoriginalOSOK]

The Heritage Roscoe is basically the same revolver - 5 shot Taurus with different cosmetics. FYI

[@georgewallace4457]

The only "FBI load"that's loaded properly is the Buffalo Bore. Fed & Rem both use too hard of a lead alloy. Buffalo Bore works great at $2+per round. But, I get 85% of the effect with wadcutters or even LRN...

[@bowman321123]

Thanks for doing more testing with self-defense .38 ammo through a snubby, my EDC.

[@jamesclark6427]

I carry the Remington version in most of my .38 Specials. Which is many. 😛 It's pretty brisk to fire in smaller revolvers though, and some guns just don't like it much and rather casually distribute the bullets. It's downright unpleasant in the Colt Agent and Cobra, and I use Liberty Civil Defense and Federal 110 grain standard pressure in those. In 2" and 4" K-frame guns it's highly controllable. Noticably increased muzzle flash though.

[@mikemcmanus116]

Have you compared the Buffalo Bore FBI Load .38+P to other "FBI" loads? If i remember correctly the BB produces around 400 fpe from a 3" barrel.

[@jagrench62]

Soft alloy at 1000 fps is the answer. I have cast different alloys of cast bullets using a gas check to prevent leading of the soft alloy. As far as factory projectiles the Speer is the best. I like the Hornady more but the alloy is harder.

[@gidim8367]

Any chance you can side track a little and do a "how to" on cleaning leaded barrels. That's been my only apprehension with shooting led. Thanks for your hard work.

[@ronaldlollis8895]

Kroil. Any industrial supply house or all your ‘go to’ mail order supplier’s such as Brownell’s, Natchez SS, Midway, etc. carry it. It’s the darling of benchrest shooters and mechanics that know how to get badly rusted nuts, bolts and studs loosened. It is not cheap, a little goes a long way and if you have any old .22’s that just don’t shoot accurately anymore, swab the bore, let it sit overnight, patch and brush it thoroughly, run one more coat and let that sit overnight and repeat on patches and brushes, she will sparkle. Be mindful of this though, Kroil contains Benzene, as do most any other petrochemical products, and Benzene is a known carcinogen (linked to bladder cancer). Limit your skin and vapor contact and do not allow children to come in contact with it. It gets underneath the layers and particles of lead, loosening the bond between steel and lead. Use a resealable plastic screw top bottle/jar to dispose old patches in until you can throw them away or burn them outside (only where legal to do). Leading of barrels, particularly handguns, usually is only an issue if one is loading them hot and fast and shooting a lot of them, but the lead alloy mixture (percentage of soft lead to the percentage of tin and hardener, if you are casting your own projectiles) using a harder bullet or ones with gas checks installed can easily minimize lead accumulation in a barrel.

[@robertseafield5810]

To get lead out of barrels, get some Chore Boy all copper scouring pads. Wrap some material from the pad around a bore brush for a very tight fit in the barrel. This will also get plastic out of a shotgun barrel easily.

[@gidim8367]

@@robertseafield5810 Thanks

[@Fudmottin]

It would have been interesting to see the Paul Harrell load side by side with those two. The 125gr JHP probably would have a bit less recoil. Not sure how it would do with the denim though. Cool video. It's amazing how much difference something as little as the hardness of the lead makes when it has a 25 ft-lb advantage.

[@GunSam]

I'm guessing you must mean Remington SJHP. That, the Critical Defense 110+P, the Winchester Defender 130 gr and this, are probably the best performing rounds to date. The Gold Dot, never really did that good for me.

[@Fudmottin]

@@GunSam That's the one. As for the Gold Dot, I can't even find it anymore. I would be interested in testing their 110gr bullets, but I can't find them. XTP 110s are easy to find. Cheap too. As far as 110gr loaded ammunition, the Hornady seems easiest to find. Winchester seems to have dropped off the map, like you said. Can't find anything.

[@_JimS]

And if you reload, there's plenty of choices for the LSWCHP out there. One of my favorites is the Hornady Swaged Cowboy bullet for accuracy. A test with some Underwood 38 SPECIAL +P 158GR. gas checked LSWCHP soft cast may be in order. They look mean, like some .357 Magnum Black Talons I have.

[@davidaustin4407]

Great test!

[@GunSam]

Article as mentioned: gunmagwarehouse.com/blog/that...

[@RedProg]

I have been known to do business with these fine folks

[@billyp333]

Thank you

[@livincincy4498]

Thanks again ‼️

[@Tom-cp6yj]

I carry the HTP 110+p version in my snub.

[@jasonshults368]

Heavier bullets lose less velocity in short barrels. Short barrel and light bullet is the least efficient.

[@russellpayne7901]

Buffalo Bore makes this load in standard pressure that is gas checked and does 850 FPS out of a 2 inch barrel

[@RandyWittmann]

Great video as usual! thank you

[@stephenm2951]

CLARITY:this load was primarily developed by JIMMY CIRRILLO and his NYPD STAHE OUT SQUAD. In chicago;there was a lot of interest ;so the NY guys ;sent ballistoc/load in fo to them;even tho they were allready going in that direction. Any how the Feds werent sleeping ;they saw the results;and climbed aboard. As usual;they claimed all the credit for this wonderfull ,loadsing! haha So itgoes;AD NAUSEUM!!

[@boostimalaka1]

Jim Cirillo would be at the M.E. Autopsy to see the effects of the ammunition. He liked the .30 M1 Carbine 110 grain Softpoint Ammunition. From his experience, the 12 Gauge with slug or 00 Buck at close range under 15 yards would be his choice. He carried two .38 Special Revolvers during the Stakeout operations. Federal made a .38 Special HST 130 grain +P load based on the open base wadcutter.

[@metamando]

I sometimes carry a 1960 model 60 no dash that I'm pretty sure isn't rated for +p. Right now she's loaded with S&B 148g wadcutters, but definitely looking for a better/ more powerful round... This is mostly a mailbox/ run to the corner store pocket carry. Any ideas?

[@johnnymccann5607]

I certainly appreciate your tests . it's my belief that buffalo bores 38special hardened full wad cutters, the anti personal round is the perfect self defense 38special short barreled round. like the late Jim cerilo I'm more concerned about going through than expansion. reloading and testing ammunition over 45years it's not easy to to have 38special hp ammo with desired explanation and penetration. same with 380acp. and I'm not overly concerned about pass through shots as how often do you hear of bystanders getting killed by 380acp, 38special, 9mm? here in nc I've never heard of people getting killed from pass through bullets of these calibers. most people are sent home from hospital 12 hours to 4 or 5 days to recoup at home from pass through bullets hitting them . papa wishing you well. 😊

[@shanejones578]

.357 was created for police force use, and was retired from service after a 5 year review found the fatality rate when deadly force was needed to be used was over 97%.

[@jeremywatson9129]

Since you love .38 special I just acquired a S&W M64-5. Its the a LEO model with the DAO trigger. I'm going to leave it as is with the trigger. It forces me to be on point my fundamentals. And it is very accurate so I know a miss is me not doing my part.

[@jasonashley4579]

I've got a bunch of the HTP FBI load rounds but I keep my EDC model 15-3 combat masterpiece stoked with buffalo bore's version instead, Remmingtons are loaded kinda weak these days.

[@kevinrichardson8859]

The lead is softer on the Remington and isn't engaging the rifling like the harder federal...the harder federal grips the rifling better hence the better accuracy...the Remington is softer hence the better expansion yet slower velocities...as always great tests Sam 👍

[@jasonshults368]

That seems like a decent hypothesis.

[@magnum_0710]

Where did you find the Federal FBI load? I didnt even think they still made it

[@Saintbow]

Great video as always! Have you ever taught revolver classes before or is your main focus of teaching through KZbin?

[@GunSam]

No, never taught anyone before. I don't really consider myself a teacher here either. Main focus is just running these tests for myself, and recording what happens. That's all.

[@wttw4381]

Just heard about a new heritage roscoe revolver in 38 spl +p Any future test on that gun?

[@cameronnorton5898]

I bought a 1k rounds of this Remington load for all my .357/38 guns. I have not noticed the accuracy problem. The henry rifle groups these about 4 or 5 inches at 100 which I think is pretty good considering this load was probably never intended for that.

[@blurryface1975]

if you were to pick one self defense ammo in 38 special or 38 special+p, with the price of ammo being a big concern, which would it be? ideally thered be something cheap enough to practice with all the time and run the same ammo for daily carry. it would be out of an 856 in my case so standard pressure i guess would be best if it were actually cheap enough ammo to plink with/practice....?

[@GunSam]

For me, to simplify things, I would buy as much Hornady Critical Defense 110 gr+P ammo I could get. While it's only 25 round boxes, often for $30 - It has been the only round that I have been able to reliably get hollow point expansion from in snub nose revolvers. *If* someone really wanted an okay round to practice with and carry, the Remington UMC 125 gr+P SJHP is a decent choice as I have seen the 100 pack for like $65 or so, the downside is expansion is minimal, maybe averaging .43" rather than Critical Defense's .55" or so. There's not really a good hollow point that is both inexpensive and also expands every time, but being that the Critical Defense is 25 round boxes for the same price as most 20 round boxes, you got a few rounds to play with and also carry. You could also go to websites that offer 50 round boxes of ammo. The 110 gr Federal Hydrashok in a 50 round box is a pretty good standard pressure round, actually expands more than the 129 gr+P Hydrashok. If you can find the Winchester Ranger or Defender 130 gr JHP, that's a really good round too. I wish it were as simple as buying 9mm 115 gr JHP "white box" (now in a black box labeled "Defense") but it's more complicated with .38 Special. BTW the 125 gr SJHP Winchester Defense is roughly as cost effective and performs as well as that Remington UMC I just mentioned.

[@blurryface1975]

@@GunSam thank you. i actually have some of that winchester defense in 9mm based off a review i saw. might be worth seeing if i can get it in 38spl as well. although all the hornady ftx tests ive seen you do make that ammo seem pretty tempting

[@s.b.4681]

Apparently the 158gr LSWC-HP has not gotten the memo that it's "obsolete"

[@CarolinaRimfire]

The standard pressure buffalo bore version of this is what's in my home defense 357. It's not all about kinetic energy transfer. Thanks, Sam.

[@GunSam]

The standard pressure .38 Special Buffalo Bore, is essentially a carbon copy of the .38 Special+P RCMP load. The Canadian Mounted Police wanted a .38 Special load that did about 1,000 FPS in a 4" or 5" barrel.

[@terryfowler6090]

My edc is a S&W m10 4 inch loaded with Remington fbi loads . Nuff said 😊

[@iaidagger8278]

Yes Sir that is the right formulae😊😊😊❤❤❤❤FBI load in a 4" .38 Special!!❤❤❤

[@TheJHMAN1]

Most PDs issued 38s with 4" barrels.

[@samslaughter6828]

Sam! Why do you use a crap Taurus ? I know there is a reason, please advise. A Smith shoots much nicer and a Colt even better yet! Thanks for all you do for us.

[@ratagris21]

The Revolver Sam Load!

[@GunSam]

I actually never had the opportunity to load them, was always out of stock when I was bigger into reloading. I did however, load a lot of standard, solid 158 gr SWC's as well as 125 gr XTP's. Those are actually my loads lol. Hornady XTP 125 gr, 5.0 gr of TiteGroup was my special load. They did 900 FPS in a snub and always expanded in testing to about .45"

[@ratagris21]

@@GunSam you rolled your own. The best kind.

[@mikewithers299]

​@@ratagris21🤣🤣🤣

[@tmaddrummer]

Thanks and Blessings Sam 2025!

[@nokoolaid]

Have you tried the buffalo bore 158g +p? Over 1000fps in a 2".

[@hawkuser604]

I am still trying to figure out why people use denim in these tests. It should be one layer of hoodie sweatshirt and one layer of T-shirt these days. Tell me I am wrong.

[@GunSam]

I think one layer is dumb. Here in Michigan people often wear like 8 layers of random fabric in the winter. I'd rather have the ability to go through excess denim and not need it, than have the denim defeating ability set at a low-ball number, then need more than it can do. Extra denim is no less important than minimum penetration. Like 8" of gel penetration would show to be 4" in a body, and be enough penetration for most defensive situations, but wouldn't you rather have 12" in gel to assure enough penetration through an arm/side shot?

[@imeprezime1285]

I am wondering if 1/2" MDF can be a good representative of thicker part of human skull. What do you think?

[@gk5891]

Sam, how do you feel about buying a current production 605 after your 856 issues? LGS has new 605 for $299.

[@GunSam]

I'm not a Taurus expert, but I bought my 605 in 2019 and haven't had and real issues with it. I've done small measurements and the 856 is a slightly different frame. My guess is that the 605/905/85 frame that they been using for forever, is good and they all run good. The 856 I think had issues due to them modifying that frame to make it a 6 shot. I'm buying a 905 soon so I hope I'm right

[@kirkmooneyham]

I think the Federal LSWCHP was intended to be fired primarily through 4" barreled "duty guns" like the 686 or Service Six. It's a great load in a "full size" revolver, IMO.

[@Covert_Arrangements]

I think Buffalo bore makes an FBI load equivalent.. I carry them in my snubs 😊

[@chuckhaggard1584]

Federal must be using a softer bullet nowadays, I've literally never seen one of their LSWCHPs expand at all before.

[@Ifoughtpiranhas]

Boy, both these brands smoke quite a bit with that load. Side note: Kinda morbid, but the LSWCHP were the bullets in Mark David Chapman's Charter Arms Bulldog on December 8, 1980.

[@GunSam]

I didn't know that. I was a baby at the time lol. The Buffalo Bore and Underwood standard pressure version is the equivalent to these +P loads, but with a Gas check so the leading is next to none.

[@revolverroundup]

It was a charter arms undercover, not a bulldog the bulldog is 44spl. I just did a full tour of charter arms.

[@DanTheWolfman]

Interesting. The Winchester in their own data didn't expand through heavy clothing so.....

[@GunSam]

If it's true heavy clothing, I doubt these would expand either, as my 4 layers of denim is like, old Walmart jeans my kids grew out of.

[@DanTheWolfman]

@@GunSam lol...I think IT was 4 layer heavy denim iwba style. Are any of your kids old enough to shoot yet

[@GunSam]

@@DanTheWolfman My oldest is 18 and moving to Detroit next month for school. I keep telling her she can have one of my guns, but she's on the fence about it. My other two are 17 and 11 and seemingly have little interest in it, so I don't push it.

[@curtisbarrow7650]

Your results seem to match all of the other tests I have seen (in particular Luck Gunner's). You had slightly better expansion with the Federal. The Remington and Winchester did MUCH better out of a four inch barrel. I tried some Buffalo Bore. I didn't test expansion, but the Buffalo Bore was considerably less accurate than the Remington at four yards and a 2" barrel. Effectiveness? I think a big, heavy slug of lead, even not-so-soft lead, will ruin your day if it hits a bone! {!-{>

[@DanTheWolfman]

I want to see the Federal from 3 or 4". You should always save some rounds, and we should trade for testing...

[@anthonyhaddix3598]

Try a 148 grain hollow base Wadcutter loaded backwards, it's what I used to carry off duty in my 38 snubbie 😊

[@GunSam]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/jorTeZV8adN2pbM

[@Kelly-oq9nh]

Ignore the negative comments. We conservatives completely understand

[@ryanjohnson628]

Where are you finding the 38G? I thought it was out of production

[@GunSam]

Some target sport website. I'm sure ammoseek would direct you there.

[@ryanjohnson628]

@@GunSam thanks!

[@danoneill2846]

G Man