Ep269: When Qigong Goes Wrong - Damo Mitchell

[@PetrusSolus]

Guru Viking is one of the most intelligent and discerning podcasts in the world of body-mind exploration and meditational praxis. The range of guests, discussions and topics are often stunning, and the quality is uniformly high. Many thanks to folks like Steve and Damo, sharing their invaluable knowledge for the benefit of others.

[@Traumatose]

Such an important subject, as these teachings keep crashing against a very different culture and people, than the ones originating them. I'm not a sensitive type, so I've always appreciated Mr Mitchells direct style, and willingness to discuss the touchy topics... that usually are overly touchy only due to overly neurotic and insecure practitioners 🤷‍♂ Thank you for the episode! 👏

[@julianroninbb]

@@wes555 Joey Nishad has to be one of the worst humans. A truly horrible person. I do hope he awakens though & becomes a better person.

[@catherinehelle7267]

One of the most thorough and beneficial interviews relating to pitfalls in energy work. WOW, thank you!

[@GeoffKuffner-dg5nl]

Thank you Guru Viking and Damo Mitchell. I appreciate this discussion and some clarity on how traditional medicine can support qigong practice and May address many energy sicknesses or imbalances one brings to a practice or develops as one trains. I was a little surprised that the intention someone brings to a practice was not addressed straight away. Why are we practicing? What is the purpose of any particular practice or stage of training we are undertaking? A compassionate intention frames, guides and nourishes a practice at all stages while also serving as a safeguard. For me, this is one of the essential foundations, assessments and results. Very best to all.

[@emeraldfernandez5010]

Great and important discussion. With the misunderstandings and misuse on this path powerfully and clearly explained. Giving me words to help articulate the hard to explain or speak to. Thank YOU Damo Mitchell and Gurr Viking.

[@n1stavilo]

Easiest one of my favorite interviews with Damo. Great topic, great questions...

[@sampleart1]

Damo is making a very important point here as did the martial arts teacher Del Pe in his 2005 ground breaking book ‘Hidden Dangers Of Meditation And Yoga: How To Play With Your Sacred Fires Safely’. Its not a negative book about the subject, but the last chapter makes some very important points about the different syndromes practitioners can fall into.

[@mercurykempster]

I really enjoyed this interview, very interesting ground was covered, thank you very much Damo for sharing your knowledge with such grace, and GuruViking for your great interview skills 🙏🙏

[@LookingInwardly]

Great interview, and in my opinion, a very clear and measured discussion on an important topic. Many thanks 🙏 ☀️

[@cloudgate9281]

Appreciate Damo's refreshing and down to earth view. Thanks for a great interview.

[@ivistaiji7644]

a very harmonious interview...congratulations to the host! In my opinion, this is the way we all move forward.

[@heyitsmin]

thank you！viking‘s interviews are simply great, especially in down to earth details

[@MrBalthazar78]

Most western psychology and psychiatry is still very primitive and should really be approached with healthy skepticism. Such a great interview.

[@DiscoverTaiji]

Very good, and very diplomatic.

[@briansprock2248]

Thank you Viking guru and Damo Mitchel. Clarity.

[@djamelka1335]

So true … the body must be prepared before building chi … ❤ and avoid chi deviation issues

[@atticusfinch6038]

I like this guy. He's very pragmatic in his veiw on these things that can sound a little woowoo. I like what he said about mental illness being most of the cases where the person thinks they have an energy issue

[@atticusfinch6038]

@@andrews7414 think he's selling snake oil?

[@igaluitchannel6644]

Hard Chi Gung can cause a multitude of problems as well. Gastric problems were my complications.

[@BusinessPsychic]

I really appreciate the detailed table of contents, thank you.

[@RichLee_laughingblade]

I thoroughly enjoyed that, thanks both. Hopefully not only because my own thinking is similar. I'd have liked to hear more about Damo's own experience in respect of when 'real' meditation occurs. I think the distinction betwen many path practices (incl yoga, qi gong, alchemy, psychedelics) and fruition practices (for want of a better term) isnt often made. Partly because it can be hard to describe, but perhaps mainly because so few people do the work to get there.

[@scrungletech]

From my perspective, it comes from the genuine commitment of your incarnation to realizing full enlightenment as soon as possible for the benefit of all beings. No practices will come to fruition until you commit that. It's the seed and the vehicle. Otherwise you're just cycling samsara.

[@ldmdesign5610]

Really interesting interview. A lot of bits there to ponder with regards to many things on the spiritual path

[@GaryBish-i8s]

I’m loving two of my favorites dishing on my favorite topics. This interview was tailor-made for my listening pleasure.

[@n.9411]

I would love to get Damo‘s view on Kan & Li practice…

[@justinvinokur3909]

Great talk. It opens up the conversation to start developing a more nuanced way of contemplating all the different interlocking gears of these arts, and therefore raising the bar of how to assess where one is in their cultivation honestly. As someone who experienced rather serious dragon sickness over a decade ago i hope to one day contribute my findings so that future practitioners have a clearer map/a tool for developing more sincerity when applying different methods

[@abdourazakmohamed1786]

Hi Justin, As someone going through the most painful moment of my life as I’m currently experiencing dragon sickness triggered by excessive meditation and incorrect qi qong practice I’m desperately looking for help literally crying myself to sleep almost every night because of the pain, could you please tell me how you got through it?

[@justinvinokur3909]

@@abdourazakmohamed1786 Hello, it is a difficult thing to give general advice for specific contexts, especially over the internet. Decide you have the resolve and an infinite patience to see it through, it was mandatory for me that i made it into an intense self study. There are many tools and mdalities and people who will give you different pieces, but again its hard to point a finger in amy particular direction when treatment is involved. Call on your deepest values and cherished memories, symbolically draw them out, and hold them as if an angry wind were trying to pry them from you. Indomitable resolve and infinite patience. Im unsure how youtube works with this, but if there were a way for you to connect with me privately i would be happy to hear the specifics from you

[@justinvinokur3909]

@@abdourazakmohamed1786 , i just left a message but for some reason it didnt stick, so i will try again. It is difficult to give specific advice without being attuned to your specific context. Infinite patience, indomitable will. Call on your deepest values and most cherished memories and symbolize them, draw them out, write them out, look at them and hold them through all possible lenses, and hold on to them as if an angry wind were trying to grasp them from you. Stop qi gong and meditation as Damo points out. For me it was mandatory i contextualized it as an intense learning experience/study. If there is a way to privately connect from here i would be happy to hear you out and do my best to put you in a good direction.

[@abdourazakmohamed1786]

@@justinvinokur3909 hi Mr Justin I really thank you wholeheartedly for your advices and your support. I’m really sorry for the late reply as I’m actually facing so many challenges that even writing a message is so overwhelmingly difficult. “Who to call,can I get my hopes up, who to trust as I’ve already been to a lot of TCM but they told me they never treated such a bad case of qi sickness and didn’t get better from the treatments, will I ever go back to normal” are the thoughts eating at me every single day even more so when my Boby warned so many times and I didn’t t listen .

[@abdourazakmohamed1786]

@@justinvinokur3909 hi Justin, I left you a reply but I just rechecked and it was gone. I just wanted to tell you that was really grateful for your reply and I would really like to talk to you to get some help because I’m so lost and in so much pain just typing a message became one of the most difficult thing to do for now.

[@dymonmein]

Missed opportunity: When qi gong goes qi wrong!

[@Odysseus555]

😂

[@ilonabaier6042]

If something does not have both a positive and a negative there is no friction and no friction means no energy. That's simple physics.

[@nedotikomka1]

Great chat. I like especially that Damo put his opinions in diplomatic, nice words. When I commented his video I got “bullocks”, “you never had anything right” and such. Still don’t get what it depends on. Should I also be British to earn nice attitude or should I be glad to get “deliberate rudeness” so I can grow stronger and not be “such a daft” as Damo often puts it adding lots of F words? This video is good example of nice deep conversation without righteous att.

[@ilonabaier6042]

With NLP and Hypnosis after Milton Erickson the coach/therapist always has the subject ask the unconscious if it is amenable to change and if not then, the informs the subject and the change will not be implemented.

[@terrytong8665]

Modern psychology has not 1% of the validity as ancient spiritual traditions. Its unthinkable thay all these traditions are seen with skepticism while almost all of them have a lot more substance than modern psychology .

[@sendakan666]

Thank you for this thought-provoking discussion. I am not sure though about the analogy Mr.Mitchell presents between meditation and medication. Meditation is more like exercise. Injuries are really very rare although not impossible. And we usually know when we're perhaps over exerting or whatever. Just my two cents.

[@Gongchime]

Great discussion.

[@magalipeysha]

Great interview. I have a lot to think about now!

[@scrungletech]

Blessings Guru Viking 🙏

[@LotusNeiGong]

When you read the comments under an interview you did and realise that you weren’t as diplomatic as you thought you were 😂😂😂😂😂

[@LotusNeiGong]

@@wes555 it’s an interview. That means you talk usually :)

[@LotusNeiGong]

@@wes555ah i see, a psychedelic lover :) you do you sir :)

[@LotusNeiGong]

@@wes555the drugs are serving you well 😂👍

[@LotusNeiGong]

@@wes555I don’t know what you want me to elaborate on 🤷🏼‍♂️ My take was that combining Qigong with psychotropic drugs was a bad idea as both are strong and the combination of the two brings risks. It’s not that odd a take. I am not so sure why that is so upsetting? This is why, as I said in the interview I think, I advise students who want to do ayahuasca or whatever it is they feel they need to do, to take some time off of other practises for a while first. This negates the risk 🤷🏼‍♂️ That’s me being sensible with people’s wellbeing when they ask me for training advice. Not that big a deal I don’t think

[@LotusNeiGong]

@@wes555 You seem quite distressed. I am sorry this is the case and hope you feel better soon :)

[@rogerunderhill4267]

China friendly timing as usual. Thx! 🙏

[@stefankohrmann6181]

Unfortunately brainfarts dont smell .. Thx for Sharing Very important and helpful 👍🙏

[@YongnianTaiChiUSA]

As a whole it is a very important message on the dangers meditation, Qigong, and yoga may pose to mental health. You have to question the mental health and maturity of the speaker when they talk negative about other meditation systems than their own, they seem to comment on system they have not gone deep in and try to annihilate them and act like their system is better. Much more growing up to do mentally and spiritually for this speaker. Best to say nothing about other peoples meditation traditions than act 'Holy than thou". It comes off as pompous and arrogant.

[@zion1]

I would like to speak to him privately.

[@darksidejosh]

damo mitchell, "welding is a joining process, like healing!"

[@charliepan4055]

He describes Kan and Li , mixing water and fire. Which should not be done before Fusion and six healing sounds. Just progress in the correct stages.

[@LeftOfToday]

Finally made it through this episode. Really great questions asked, but seems to be a lot of contradiction.. No black and white but never do this, this is never good; defines spiritual practice as unifying with spirit but dismisses a myriad of practices that involve exactly that, etc. It seems Damo only admits to not understanding karma but seems to have a lot to say about a lot of other spiritual schools and practices that I have to wonder how much he really has experience with, too. Who am I, but I found myself disagreeaing a lot based on my own experiences. A lot of claims about everyone else's delusions and perhaps not enough curiosity about his own. I get the sense there's an inherent risk involved in going that deep or opening up that much. Understandably though, we all choose spiritual paths that make sense for us; that doesn't make another's less valid. As for statistics on mental health in the western world, irregardless of psychedelic use: let's remember that those many other regions aren't pathologizing people for having less typical experiences, and they have better outcomes for "mental health" where they don't deem someone "mentally ill" as well. For generations those individuals have been seen as having a gift, and are then supported through training instead of being put on medications, convinced their realities are wrong, taught to not trust themselves, and told that their futures are dim. The damage done by the mental health field is longstanding, far reaching, and far from done.

[@just1certifiable]

In my case, meditation allowed me to realize I had entities as well as bringing in more. They rotate and rock my body, supposedly to help chakra alignment, but I quit meditating when I was being shoved back and forth between two of them. That was 4-5 years ago, and I still haven't been able to clear them.

[@paulbail1451]

How did you know these were entities not internal energy

[@shemusmcquillaide]

I get the rocking thing and I see it happening in lots of others including the Dalai Lama actually. Its internal energy I agree with Paul. Perhaps what you experience is something different, but It is pretty strange when it first starts happening, I can see it might be disconcerting for some, but it always feels very pleasant to me and sometimes I dont have it happen for years, so I have figured its just maybe an adjustment going on. I have never been freaked out by meditation or entities particularly, and they are there whether you meditate or not. There are protective mantras and deities like white and green Tara if you are in Buddhist traditions, I would work with protective mantras and I do because I get very occasionally spooked, everybody needs a backup I think.

[@just1certifiable]

@@paulbail1451 I started asking yes and no questions while standing, so my body could be used like a dousing pendulum.

[@just1certifiable]

@@shemusmcquillaide The rotating was ok, it was getting shoved back and forth pretty forcefully that made me say, that's it on the meditation. I have gone back to it a few times and will still rotate. In the beginning I thought it must be 'my higher self, but as I said in the other comment, I started asking questions by dousing.. first by body, then pendulum and now telepathically, but they don't talk much. And yes, I am their battery, leaving me with barely enough energy to function, let alone consider fighting them. I was once told by them when trying to create a protective bubble, 'you can't keep evil out when it's already inside'. Being a descendant of someone called Rebecca, I was apparently cursed, so they have followed me through many life times. Here are just a couple of things I've been told... Eve knew many men besides Adam and that it was Metatron who sired Cain.Rh- blood means there is dormant Reptilian DNA as I was given the offer of the curse being removed if I let him activate mine. I said no, but there are days I regret turning him down.

[@DanielIacob-ln3kk]

@@just1certifiable do you want help with that?

[@janopenksa6668]

if I already have dragon disease, is it self-healing or is it permanent?

[@Bjorn_Algiz]

Very Interesting 😮

[@Paul-Ennemoser]

Thank you 😊🙏

[@kingfillins4117]

Slightly ironic how psychologically fixated he is on what is or is not meditation. He reiterated the point what 10 times? Then saying that someone who says they’ve “achieved” something that that’s a problem. So achieving his conception of actual mediation is not an achievement? Then he says learn to not take criticism seriously. Why would any learning bd needed if one is actualised?

[@andrews7414]

@@kingfillins4117 it what happens when indoctrinated….You don’t think you are or even worse just because you can explain what’s happening you think you’re exempt and talk like so.

[@TheForeignersNetwork]

Also I think people in this comments section are being very uncharitable to the interviewee... Like, he's not a Buddhist, so don't expect him to have a Buddhist opinion?? Every Vajrayana practitioner should realize that the tulku system is at least *a little* political, and that many Tibetans cautiously express their reservations about that particular system. If you can't critically think about your gurus, then you should not practice tantra.

[@shemusmcquillaide]

Great rundown on these kinds of problems. Interesting to know that the Qi Gong tradition has gotten in there and described these different conditions. I've never encountered much of that from hatha yoga or dharma traditions, you just get warned about how you might be so unfortunate as to be eaten alive or driven stark raving mad by your yoga or meditation practice. Thers another vague one, or vague to me anyway, maybe Tibetans have a very specific knowledge about this, but thers what hear called loong. If I am not mistaken its the same loong as "lung" meaning wind, you hear it mentioned, "Oh you could get a lung condition from doing that," meaning an illness from practice. I've always felt like, well yeah, I guess its a lot like driving a car, you might get severely injured in an accident, so take care and don't push it by driving too fast so to speak. As for yidam practice and entity posession or anything regarding entity posession, I would guess a lot of Buddhist masters would answer that question by saying, ultimately your problem is not possession but still being stuck with wrong view of an inherently existing self that has among many other problems and sufferings the problem of potentially becoming possessed, and secondarily that this delusion sees others including spirits and disincarnate yogis etcetera as inherently existing and capable of actually possessing a self that isnt there when you examine it. You end yidam practice with dissolution of the visulaization and then sustained non-awareness, that is probably good enough for just about everyone. You also are not going to get involved in yidam practice unless you have some experience with non-dual awareness as another safe-guard. Its fundamental with yidam or whats a misnomer/bad translation to call deity practice, you are often reminded, the deity is just an artifice to wean you off attachment to self and that as self becomes more of the yidam one identifies with we can more easily move onto the final non-dual awareness. We become attached to self by first believing in it, so by engaging in yidam practice you loosen that whole knot is the whole point, you are really moving away from the whole problem of the grasper and the grasped which seems at the heart of the possession problem. If you are being possesed, you are just ultimately doing that to yourself, but yes if we don't have much grounding and expereince in a non-dual view then a dualistic reality isa ll you have and its a potential problem that you could become possessed by anything I suppose, its a whole wild wooly samasaric dualistic universe out there just waiting for us as inherently existing selves to get stuck somewhere else once again so that appears very real, just ask Linda Blair or your friendly neighborhood Vajrayana exorcist.

[@sampleart1]

Very interesting what Damo had to say about deities and entities. Many brought up on the Harry Potter stories are now seriously dabbling in Wicca and the Egyptian, Greek & Celtic deities.

[@sherrilawrence662]

His personality kinda bad lol. BUT I always watch his episodes, really knows his stuff 😂Anyway, love the podcast rarely miss one MUCH GRATITUDE STEVE ❤🙏

[@SnakeAndTurtleQigong]

🙏

[@Cruelty1633]

karma= punching a wall, 50 years later, you get hit by th wall and now you blame somebody else

[@Cruelty1633]

dharma= you try to punch wall, your friend moves you and the wall around so you punch yourself, then says you are welcome for tthe favor.

[@9EtherSupremeFist]

How do you fix the meditation sickness chan bing 53:12

[@TheAcidroom]

I'm a practitioner of Falun Gong for 20 years, I haven't practiced any other qi-gong so I can't make a comparison. But I have only had positive experiences with the practice.

[@jessejewitt488]

Love what you’re saying. Any tips for body conditioning like golden bell or steel jacket with regards to not entertaining spirits? There were times where I was guided (it seemed) and those were beneficial. Now I just take it day by day and enjoy the process more. I’ve been at it for about 3 years now. I suppose organically I just don’t look for shortcuts or any extra spices so to speak, the practice is the focus.

[@DanielIacob-ln3kk]

Yi Jin Jing from a pai/lineage that goes back to the shaolin temple.

[@murrik]

17:45 1:20:57 😂😂🤣

[@OfraFan]

What is the point of re-defining the common language of meditation based on what seems to be a whim? Mitchell insists on calling meditation that which other practices have called samadhi, or enlightenment or oneness for thousands of years. Never mind that there is already a well-accepted definition of meditation, often involving concentration and detachment from recursive thinking. It only seems like ego that would want the world to change to suite ones preferences. Oh, and it might be time to call in some Western medicine when someone comes to you suffering from "dragon sickness" and is in extreme physical pain. Seems like the responsible thing to do.

[@RichLee_laughingblade]

Do the 8 limbs of yoga count? 4,5,6,7,8 break out body training, mind training all the way up to meditation. Western mindfulness jink food has fooled us. On the Western medicine question... What did you have in mind?

[@BnibroC69]

I had the same thought. I don’t see the point in moving the goal post for the definition of the term all the way to the highest level. Saying that only total absorption or union is “real meditation” is like saying only Olympic level swimming is real swimming … or you’re not “really” playing piano unless you’re doing so at the level of Billy Joel or Mozart. Not necessarily true nor helpful. My understanding was that the whole idea of levels and stages is kind of antithetical to Chan and Zen practice anyways.

[@TheForeignersNetwork]

Ha, the story about the deity in the Bhutanese temple is funny. It's interesting that he doesn't feel like visualization practices should be pursued fully, because Daoist energy work does involve quite a bit of visualization (even if it only involves lights and colors and sounds). In my opinion, tantric meditation takes the opposite approach--Through visualization and imagination, the energetic ability develops naturally. Ultimately both Daoist-style meditation and tantric meditation are two sides of the same coin, and either upaya might come more naturally to some people than others. I've had three of my Buddhist teachers recommend that I pursue qigong more fully, and it's something that I'm looking into on a deeper level at the moment. The other thing is that while tantric Buddhas are real entities, they are the purist manifestation of mind. Therefore, once you fully merge with one of them, you are simply merging with yourself. People run into problems with deity practice because they don't follow their teacher's instructions, they practice without an empowerment, or they don't keep their commitments. Assuming that you don't do any of those things, you shouldn't have any problems with deity yoga, because the deities are your mind. Not just your mind, but THE mind of all sentient beings.

[@AyahuascaMagic]

Good chat. Thoughtful guy. This guy is grounded in earth lol. Seems a little confused on sexual energy

[@Censored.225]

Everything goes wrong! From moment to moment. It has to when all conditions are Anicca and when suffering is the underpinning fact of existence. Good luck everyone.

[@rachelblackburn669]

No offense but this guy has no idea what he is talking about.

[@DanielIacob-ln3kk]

How come? Would be interested to see what criticism you have of him.

[@n1stavilo]

@@DanielIacob-ln3kk They usually just throw opinions without any arguments; and when u ask them for the concrete argument - they run away.

[@DanielIacob-ln3kk]

@@n1stavilo I think he very clearly outlined different patterns. He went into a fair amount of detail about the patterns, such as dragon sickness, and provided examples for each case. I personally experienced a severe Qi Gong deviation when transitioning from a yogic system to a Qi Gong system, and I can attest to the symptoms of dragon sickness. In my opinion, it was a very good discussion on the topic. I'm curious, what specifically didn’t you like about the discussion? Maybe it was one of the tangents they went on.

[@n1stavilo]

​@@DanielIacob-ln3kk oh my comment didn't went into Damo˙s direction, but the root comment of this discussion. I quite enjoyed this interview (very refreshing / clear), a lot of topics that are not discussed enough these days with the rise of various "experts" on "kundalini", etc. I agree with everything u said (and also have an similar situation; transitioning from yogic practices to qigong) ...

[@orancarin3594]

Brilliant from a TCM point of view. But unfortunately a total fail in everything Vajrayana related. Thats uncourteous towards the most established tantra practices in the past 1400 years and its failsafe mechanisms developed over a millennia by brilliant practitioners. There are many distinctions to make between tantric practices as a whole Vs. Vajrayana. These shouldnt be mixed or put in the same bowl. There is also a lot to say about What a Tulku or an Emanation really means and also how these are verified. You gave it a bad rep while clearly being uneducated about the subject. It can be a whole interesting separate episode if you bring in someone experienced in this and which practices or practiced in one of the lineages. As one myself, i know for sure you will have a "Oh!" moment. You will even agree that the practice is safe while you implied otherwise. It just seems you and your honorable guest got some wrong conceptions about the generation stage, yidam practices and what are tulkus or emanations. Could be a dope episode... i mean the dude studied TCM and Vajrayana practices literally hide inside TCM. Could be a really fun talk.

[@tenzinthomasmasami]

This here can be adopted, whereas Willow Bough should be abandoned. Not at all similar understandings...well, at least until he disparaged the Dalai Lama.

[@anipema6963]

He just lost my respect dismissing the Dalai Lama as political.

[@bewholeyoga]

@@wes555 awwwwww so cute! Junkie brain can't rub two brain cells together to come up with anything intelligent to say. Well done! Here's a medal for participation! Go fondle your 'shroom, fighta!

[@abideasthat]

This is what gained my respect

[@TheAcidroom]

He is correct.

[@julianroninbb]

@@bewholeyoga he's allowed to lose respect & you're allowed to disagree. But you acting like an annoying child is very strange. It shows that you're not very mature.

[@DanielIacob-ln3kk]

Why? It is his oppinion. He did not impose it on you.