Handpiece vs Mast Faceting Machine Comparison - Faceting Machine Death Match

[@xamir1113x]

Thank you so much, glass artist here. Getting into faceting, had NO IDEA where I was going you explain in great detail.

[@JustinKPrim]

I’m glad you found it helpful !

[@matthewvilhauer2556]

This reinforces our conversation when you picked up the Prismatic machine. I've been cutting with Raytech units for over 40 years and they are amazing and flexible. For precise work my Ultratec or digital Prismatic machines are great and I have both machines mated to Polymetric OMF concave machines. (a first generation and one made 8 years ago).

[@CurrentlyRockhounding]

I learned so much from this video. Thank you.

[@1bwana120]

I am a bit late in posting this but I just came across this video. Nice presentation as always I enjoyed watching. I have cut many stones on all kinds of machines mast, hand piece even jamb peg. I would like to make a couple for corrections regarding keyed dop machines. Both the Facetron, and MDR machines I use allow you to adjust the keyed position to the index wheel quickly and easily. No need to use the cheater. They also provide the ability to align the 45 degree adapter to the wheel no matter where the cheater is set. You can also set the quill to a zero degree angle and cut the table that way just like your handpiece machine. I have seen this done on a Scintillator machine also. The Facetron machine is even quicker and easier to juggle the angle than a platform machine. Just turn the fine tune height adjust. All of these things depend on knowing your machine well, how to set it up, and how to use it. You can choose to set your machines up as hard stop machines that you use to set your angles. This is more the way American meet point faceters do it. The way gem cutters like it is as a soft stop machine where you are just using the dial indicator/digital angle gauge to measure the angle, not set it. I do I use a combo setup that gives me the best of both Worlds. I set my hard stop a couple of clicks past my dial indicator zero point. I can cut to zero, or cut to the hard stop whichever suites the situation best. Since I almost never use diagrams to cut there is always a little "walking in" the met points like you do on your handpiece machine. My machine has also be modified to let me set fractional indexes instead of using the cheater. Makes even fractional indices instantly repeatable. Very fast to cut fancy shapes this way. Also means I can always find the exact midpoint between any pair of indexes for cutting portuguese style, or flat weight saving outlines. On the other hand, if you want to cut standard shapes really fast, nothing can compare to an ultra heavy duty hard stop machine for speed and accuracy. No deed to ever look at a stone while cutting once you have set up the angle and depth for a facet tier. Cut hundreds of stones with out looking and they are all the same. You did accurately distinguish between factors and gem cutters. They are very different endeavors with different methods, techniques, criteria, and goals. Faceters are cutting a stone to a design. Gemcutters are letting the stone tell them how it needs to be cut in order to maximize attractiveness and value.

[@JustinKPrim]

Thanks for the thoughtful comment. I’m happy to know that I missed a few details. I hadn’t heard that facetron and mdr could realign the index position. That’s awesome! As for cutting on 0 degrees... is it safe. On my Polymetric scintillator it’s possible to cut on 0 with no adapter but it’s quite dangerous becasue if the stone gets pushed up for any reason the mast can’t move because it’s on a worm gear. My batt lap has several deep pits in it now from doing that. As you said, knowing your machine well is key and figuring out how to manipulate it is essential to an efficient workflow. I’m curious about your fractional indexes. Is this done through a custom index gear?

[@1bwana120]

@@JustinKPrim Cutting tables at zero degrees is not the best way to do it. The facetron head is on a sliding mast so it can rise up when instead of jamming. However, as you say at 0 degrees to cut the table it is prone to knocking the stone off the dop, and possible gouging the lap. Any run out in the lap shows up badly in this configuration. I think the 45 adapter is the best way to cut tables. The keying is so accurate that although I often take the dop in and out of the quill, I never need to touch the cheater. In fact in cuttion a hundred stones I doubt I would touch the cheater once. I hate cheaters. My fractional index doesn't depend on a custom index. The way the 96 gear works is that there are deep "V"s the goes to a point at the bottom cut in at each index. The lever that locks into the Vs has a matching V shape. But it doesn't go all the way to the point at the bottom. It has a flat with some width at its apex. This works better because it makes sure that the Vs get locked in an both sides. I designed my customization to shortened the V on the lever arm this made the flat wider. I then engraved a slot in the center of the wider flat. The slot is matched in size to the width of the peak of the index wheel Vs. This ends up with the lever locking into the index gear on the 96 indexes, and the index gear locking into the lever on the 1/2 indexes. So, the 1/2 indexes are as secure and repeatable as the whole indexes. It really makes the machine much more powerful. I end up with a 192 available index, but a 96 gear geometry. You and I have sat across from each other at the annual mexican dinner in Tucson. If you would like to see it all work we can do a Zoom and I will walk you through some of my equipment and techniques.

[@lucycabana9970]

​@1bwana120 Are you from Arizona? I am looking to learn faceting in Phoenix or Tucson.

[@micropyro7470]

Great info! I have an old ultra tec that I purchased 2nd hand some years ago and have cut many nice stones. It is getting worn out, especially the mast. I have always liked the hand piece type of machines for the simple fact of ease to check the stone as you cut and cost less but can cut just as nice with care from the cutter. Your information on the pro's and con's is of great help in my choice.

[@Aerodauphin]

Oh I have been waiting for this for a while. Thank You.

[@shadowmihaiu]

Very interesting and great discussion. I am not a cutter but this really makes me feel like taking the plunge. Thanks very much. Given your discussion, for budget reasons of course I might go with the hand piece. But also because I want the process to be organic and when I complete a stone I would want to feel it was more me and my interpretation than following a strict recipe to get a given result, which a mast machine seems it might be more like.

[@TheSevonne]

Amazing video. Stuffed to the brim with value. Including entertainment value!

[@JustinKPrim]

Thank you. This is probably my favorite intro to any video I’ve ever done. Sooner or later, I’m going to do a sequel which will be Handpiece Royal rumble. Four Handpiece machines in a no holds barred face-off

[@thisisustralia40]

Brilliant Justin I LAUGHED till I cried just so creative.

[@donsilverbulletspider3925]

Excellent, no -superb comparison -Thank you.

[@marcelluswallace8050]

Hey Justin I just watched your Faceting Machines around the World Series and really thought that the mast machines are superior , but thanks to this video I will probably start cutting with a sri lankan machine. Thanks 👍🏻

[@CoraleenWaddell]

Extremely helpful video 👏🏼 thank you so much!

[@nathanhays1746]

So helpful! Particularly the part about how close to the stone you are. Watching many of your videos I'd already come to the conclusion that the right machine-stone balance for me is somewhere around the Sterling style. Really great presentation!

[@JustinKPrim]

Thanks

[@billbryant9995]

I know this is a late comment, but just watched. Great video, very helpful. The intro cracked me up! and even a matching shirt. Funny! I found the spoiler alert to be very helpful, as it caused me to adjust what things in the video I was concentrating on. If that makes sense. Made it much more enjoyable as I was focused on the pluses of each machine more than the minuses. Anyway, great video. Thanks again.

[@JustinKPrim]

Thank you. Im glad you had a good laugh which is what I was hoping for and of course glad the actual content helped! I am looking forward to doing the sequel which will be a handpiece 4 way royal rumble! Just waiting to get all the machines in one place.

[@VincentPardieuFieldGemology]

:-) Great video! Thanks Justin!

[@JustinKPrim]

Thanks, it was fun to make

[@lrmodranoel]

Great video.

[@khiljigems6141]

really great. thanks Sir

[@fahadfarookklt]

Great video, Thank you

[@williamjackson3402]

Fantastic video! I am a novice cutter and I wonder if cutters develop carpal tunnel damage from using the hand piece?

[@JustinKPrim]

No, carpel tunnel syndrome in computers is from your wrist sitting on the desk all day and flattening and eventually breaking your nerves. The Handpiece users wrist floats in the air. Only the heel of your hand touches the machines and as far as I know that part is pretty padded and protected from any such injuries.

[@davidbeasley9155]

I got carpel tunnel from using screwdriver to much working as electrician. It can happen from using fingers too much causing tendons in the carpel tunnel to swell limiting movement. It sucks severely.

[@fedaTHC]

hi! nice video! raytech handpiece have decimal milimiters. thanks for sharing

[@mezzemezzrowmezzemezzrow7444]

Hey man, thanks a lot for your content! Keep on going!

[@JustinKPrim]

My pleasure. I want to do another death match video soon but I’m getting a few machines I need. This time it will be a royal rumble!

[@davidbeasley9155]

Great video! Very informant. Enjoyed very much. Thanks.

[@JustinKPrim]

😁👍🏼

[@Zav19844]

Lol classic mate! Well done 👍

[@JoCuji]

I loved the intro!!😆

[@JustinKPrim]

Thank you. Eventually I’m going to do a sequel to this video which is faceting machine royal rumble. 4 handpieces in 4 corners for a wild battle. Still waiting on the 4th machine I want though.

[@at9362]

Great Vid! Sounds like the Sri Lankan machines are better geared for re-cutting to the trade than the mast. That's why Im interested in them. I've faceted coloured gems on a mast only for 30yrs off and on and always found them limited given my background in diamond polishing. With a diamonds you've got a Tang & Dop that give you so much more control over what's being done. I do a lot of re-cutting these days and Diamonds are not a problem, coloured on the other hand are challenging on the mast as there's so little flexibility you just about have to recut the whole stone from scratch to make it simple.. Hoping to get one of these Sri Lankan machines soon. just wish the adjustment knob was on the right hand side as my left hand is my Tang &b Dop hand.. and that's not gunna change.

[@JustinKPrim]

Oh this is interesting. I never considered that a diamantaire might use either the left or the right hand to hold the tang. Do they sell both a leftie and rightie tang? I'm not sure if there is enough demand for the Sri Lankan manufacturers to make a left handed model but I know people have asked me about that before. Im left handed but I enjoy using the handpiece in my right hand so I can loupe and/or write with my left hand.

[@stevenmiles7479]

I am very much a lefty and I actually find it easy to use. I use my ST-08 on a bench and I stand. I usually orient the machine at a slight angle and then I reach across to tweak the height. If I have a long way to go I just set the hand piece down and use both hands to adjust the machine.

[@Breed2019]

👏👏👍thanks for the video.

[@newelement307]

Thanks for the vid, Justin. How easy/difficult is it to cut cabochons on either machine?

[@JustinKPrim]

It’s not that hard if you have the right laps but if you plan to cut a lot of cabs, a proper cabbing machine is much more comfortable and fun to use.

[@rothery2]

Not all handpiece are keyless. The Raytech Shaw that I have has keyed dops. In fact, if the key isn't in the keyway, there aren't really enough threads to secure the dop into the handpiece.

[@JustinKPrim]

Hmm Interesting. Looking at my Raytech handpiece I realize yes they are keyed. I forgot about this. I supposed if you didn't like the key, you could easily pull it out. That's what I would do with at least a few dops for recutting if I was using a Raytech all the time.

[@canadiangemstones7636]

@@JustinKPrim I’ve pulled the key more than once. It works.

[@JustinKPrim]

@@canadiangemstones7636 :)

[@oovlocityoo2671]

thanks for all the informations. where could we find good lap quality ?

[@JustinKPrim]

A lot of people like gearloose brand laps

[@ottjvtimes]

Hi Justin, is it possible to set the Sterling up for a left handed faceter?

[@JustinKPrim]

Hello. I am left handed and the sterling works great. The left hand will control the Handpiece plate riser knob while the right hand holds the Handpiece. This also frees up the left hand for the loupe and for writing notes.

[@lahiruperera3692]

Brilliant video and you are spot on. Having been trained on Sri Lankan machine, I always thought the Mast machines is way superiror in terms of getting the finest output. But then over time I realize that hand piece machine makes you part of that transformation by being agile and flexible. Quick question, do you think crown first is always better than pavillon first. I myself am used to cut crown first but now I believe cutting pavilion first reduces the risk of running out of the stone depth while getting the biggest face you can achieve, specially when you try to maximise your yield.

[@JustinKPrim]

I prefer crown first and I think it you do a good job of preforming, there is not much chance of running out of height because you can check your proportions in the preform while also making sure you've removed any inclusion or hole that might give you a surprise later and cause you to remove more height.

[@lahiruperera3692]

@@JustinKPrim thanks Justin. Yes that makes perfect sense.

[@roysuggs3635]

with a mast you can also cut table first, and you don't have to use keyed dops on many mast machines.

[@JustinKPrim]

True. I have some friends that do that though I don’t think it’s typical to do it that way.

[@darkstar3246]

What is your opinion on RayTech Shaw machine vs. Sterling 08? I think I’ve narrowed it down to these two. 0 experience cutting but I love gems to a spiritual depth. I want to do this full time. I hope you will respond soon, probably going to pull the trigger soon.

[@JustinKPrim]

@@darkstar3246 I’m teaching someone with a raytech right now and there are a lot of things I don’t like. The Handpiece isnt comfortable, the keyed dop system is awkward, the ergonomics aren’t nice, the plate can’t move and that causes problems sometimes because you can’t back up the Handpiece far enough. The lamp arm is way too short to be usable. There’s more too.

[@Katobats]

Thanks for sharing very imformative ..machine the stone and i working together ....watching from Philppines

[@Algoldprospecting]

Where do you get your gemstones? I have found lots of quartz and garnets when I dredge for gold. Maybe I can send you some.

[@JustinKPrim]

The tucson show! You can find practically anything there. I recommend the Pueblo show for rough. I’ll be there this come January/Feb

[@Algoldprospecting]

@@JustinKPrim I don’t think I will be able to go.

[@JustinKPrim]

@@Algoldprospecting 😭

[@nicooolai]

Curious about getting into this as a hobby so the Sterling sounds super attractive. Is it at all possible, as a hobbyist, with the sterling, to cut diamonds?

[@JustinKPrim]

Nope. Diamonds is a different universe

[@nicooolai]

@@JustinKPrim Do you think it's out of reach for a hobbyist? It is not just a matter of getting better gear? It's not that I actually have ambitions to end up cutting diamonds but it's nice to know what kind of potential the hobby could have.

[@JustinKPrim]

@@nicooolai yes I think it’s far outside the realm of hobbyists. It’s super expensive and hard to buy the gear, it’s normally not possible to buy diamond rough, it’s very hard to find someone to teach you how to polish diamonds, and also diamonds are super expensive to buy so difficult to learn how to cut unless you have a teacher that’s already a diamond cutter and has work coming in you can practice on.

[@nicooolai]

@@JustinKPrim Sounds reasonable. Thank you :)

[@SnowTiger45]

DING DING ... It's a TKO. Excellent information.

[@NoxNotch]

amazing video

[@JustinKPrim]

Thank you! I’m planning another one that will be a 4 way royal rumble! Waiting on different machine to arrive first 😁

[@NoxNotch]

@@JustinKPrim i can't wait to see it 😄👍

[@MadMackz]

For someone just starting though, a handpiece seems "for the pros". Am I right in this statement? Learning a ton from your videos. Thanks, I appreciate your efforts.

[@JustinKPrim]

No I totally disagree. We use the Handpiece machine in all our classes. They are great for learning because they are so tactile and have all the necessary controls for great cutting.

[@MadMackz]

@@JustinKPrim Thanks for the Reply!!!, And wow ok!! Thats why Youre channel is best! Thanks so much, A new world just opened up!

[@rufaelsolomon6184]

Great video ! how can you adjust the Angele about 41.20 degree on the hand pice Mast SRILANCA MADE machine whith aute digital angel indicatore

[@JustinKPrim]

You just put the line a tiny bit past 41 and then look at the meet points and fine adjust by eye. No problem at all.

[@rufaelsolomon6184]

@@JustinKPrim thank you very much 👍

[@MostlyIC]

I'm a machinist and it sure seems to me that the handpiece is the way to go, you work by looking at the stone and its easier to look at the stone. as a machinist I know that "numbers" aren't real, on a milling machine with a DRO (digital read out) that reads 0.0001" increments the actual size of the metal after the cut depends on so many other things, the type of cutter, the cutter geometry, the type of coolant used, the depth of cut, the speed of cut, the type of metal being cut, the hardness state of the metal being cut, etc, etc, etc. So reality is cut, measure, re-cut, sometimes more than once. it seems like the same thing with gem cutting, cut, inspect, re-cut. the easier it is to inspect, and the easier it is to re-cut (make fine adjustments) then the better you'll be. anyway, just a machinists pretty un-informed wild-ass-guess.

[@JustinKPrim]

I agree with you. The actual size and quality of the cut depends on so many things too including type of cutter.

[@MostlyIC]

​@@JustinKPrim another interesting factoid, one of the most critical parts of an engine is the cylinder, which is machined to final size and polish with (drum roll...) lapping !!!

[@cleber3]

Whats the Brand and model for those 2 machines please? Nice video !

[@JustinKPrim]

Hello thanks for the good question. I forgot to mention it but now I updated the video description with links to both. Though actually this video is meant to me more general than comparing these two machine specifically.

[@CarlDi3trich]

Hi Justin. The website link here points to an unsafe website. Is there a better site to look at ( US ) for the Handpiece machine?

[@edwins2595]

Your video, as usual, is well done, However, your logic saying that the more primitive machine is better since it teaches you by trial and error to be a better faceter is stretching it. Following this logic means we should all be going back to jam peg machines since these are the most primitive and therefore the best to make you the best at faceting. While some jam peg faceters can knock out a stone in quick time the angles vary all over the place and usually not perfectly reproducible or optimal.

[@JustinKPrim]

The best jamb peg cutters I know are the best cutters I know in the world. I fantasize that I will eventually retire into a Jambpeg machine and spend my final days hand cranking a machine from the 1800s. Honestly though maybe the Jambpeg is too simple for most people. It is very hard and takes a long time to become good but let's put the comparison to another art form. The painters brush is quite like the Jambpeg stick. Its a piece of nice wood with some stuff on the end to help the artist do their work. No one has ever proposed to the painter that they put their stick in a machine to help them paint more accurately even though a laser printer, 3d printer, and others exists now. Not exactly a perfect analogy but we can all understand that a master painter that has been focused on their craft for 50 years can do things with a stick in their hand that most of us can barely even dream of. That being said an amateur painter can still be an amateur painter 50 years later. Gemcutting is the same in my opinion. Some will become masters despite the machine, some will be amateurs even after 50 years despite the advanced technology they employ. Most of the worlds jamb pegs evolved at the end of the 1800s and are as fast and repeatable as anything else but only if you are trained well on how to use it and of course practice a lot. :)

[@canadiangemstones7636]

@@JustinKPrim -- That may be the best reply in the history of KZbin. Not many out there brave enough to call out the western mast users for their brand of superior smugness. Nicely done!

[@MikeDavis-on4kf]

intro is dumb. Content was excellent. Whenever I see someone try to avoid a direct answer to the question, to cover all bases I think BS. But Justin is giving great advice and justifying his opinion. He is absolutely right. One might be better for a beginner, but for a pro, either is excellent. Adapt to the machine. Both machines are made for different purposes, with the same ultimate goal. And that depends on the person using the tool.

👍

[@alessiosandreani]

Hand piece machine Sterling from Sri Lanka says that it is possible to cut diamonds with their 08 . Is it possible for you ?

[@JustinKPrim]

@@alessiosandreani I’ve never tried. I think it would damage my laps.

[@alessiosandreani]

@JustinKPrim why ? you can damage your laps (disks) if you make too much pressure with any kind of machines I think

[@JustinKPrim]

@@alessiosandreani the diamond is too hard. these disks aren't made to cut diamond. diamonds are cut on iron laps. if you get an iron lap and embed it with the diamond powder that cutters use then maybe. but also how will you attach the diamond to your machine? diamonds get very hot when polishing. you can't use normal dop wax. you need a lead ball like the traditional diamond cutters.

[@alessiosandreani]

@@JustinKPrim thank you Alessio

[@therbeeo5364]

Lmao, Bruce Buffer has nothing on this 😂

[@alessiosandreani]

Hand piece . 1000 times

[@lilwrongway5190]

❤🧡💛💚💙💜💞💕💞

[@peterbennett1286]

Good video. There is one thing that I think you left out. Although 90+% of gem cutters are only interested in cutting gems for jewelry, there is another type of gem cutter that is interested in cutting larger stones for contemplation, meditation and healing. I use the UltraTec GlassTec mast machine because I cut much larger stones. The GlassTec is built bigger and stronger and I have cut several stones that are two inches wide and up to three inches long. I intend to cut even larger stones in the future. I can see no way that a handpiece machine could cut these larger stones.

[@JustinKPrim]

Yes that’s true and a good point. My personal journey has been towards professional gemcutting so most of the things in my video are also along that particular slant. Of course there is the path of competition, the path of contemplation and just pure enjoyment. I guess the path of faceting giant objects is another one that needs more market awareness 😁I’ve seen some Russian cutting cutting football sized stones which have blown my mind

[@reginaldd.paperstacks194]

I got 20 on the dude from Washington

[@PeZi3000]

420