Is This Steven Moffat's Most Overrated Doctor Who Episode?

[@HarboWholmes]

*_Psst, overrated doesn't always mean bad_*

[@QuokkaCore]

Eh, I’d personally say it isn’t his most overrated episode, I’d say that goes to something like Listen.

[@timrosswood4259]

Finally someone said it! This is what i've always thought!

[@biscuitsandbananas3433]

That's exactly how I feel about Blink.

[@carealoo744]

To be honest, I never liked this episode from the very first time I saw it as a little kid. When I first saw it, I thought it was average, and I still do. I honestly don't see anything worth remembering. I think people seem to really like this episode because it shows The Doctor's loneliness or something, but I honestly don't get that. The Doctor has access to all up time and space, and he doesn't have to worry about paying rent, or having a soul crushed from the reality of living a life on Earth. Heck, Big Finish is doing a series about that now! Yes, due to his ability to live forever, his friends often come and go, but that's how life is always! Everyone always makes friends, and then ends up having them believe, to never see them again, or perhaps have them pop up every once in awhile in the future. I personally couldn't care less if The Doctor considers himself lonely. If he wants my life, I'll trade any day!

[@JoshuaKevinPerry]

It's kinda horseshit analysis to quote future shows to criticize this one. The guy was hired to run the show based on how he wrote. Was he supposed to stop being himself? This episode sucked. Acting was better than the writing.

[@micahschmitz859]

I just realized this is literally just the season Amy plotline for series 5.

[@TheLewistownTrainspotter8102]

You can pretty much tell that Reinette is meant to be a prototype for Amy and for Clara.

[@alissafioravanti832]

Actually, before snogging the Doctor Amy said she wasn't looking for something long term which suggests she just wanted a one off with him.

[@marcuswalters8093]

Right?

[@marcuswalters8093]

"You don't notice but your brain does" I can't wait to use that. Also; it does my head in when people say, "Doctor Who?" People would say, "Doctor What?"'

[@marcuswalters8093]

@@alissafioravanti832 Which is even weirder than someone seeing a magic man as a kid and growing up wanting to shag them. You have a magic guy come into your life as a child and then decide you want a one night stand with them when you see them again because you're getting wedding jitters? Ew. Ew.

[@elliotcrossan6290]

I definitely agree re: the stupidly quick love story. It derails the whole of Series 2. It really fucks me off that the Doctor just abandons Rose, Mickey and the TARDIS in the 51st Century, and traps himself in 1758. At the very least, he should've told Rose and Mickey to stay in the TARDIS, and set Emergency Programme One to activate if he was gone too long. Then, if he did end up trapped, he would've only needed to wait 249 years to get back to them in London, rather than needing to wait between 3,242 and 3,341 years to get to a ship, the location in the universe of which he didn't actually know. He didn't even know the date, just the century!

[@mayotango1317]

So the romance soap opera of Series 2 is fine for you?

[@dindul3843]

that sounds like a better conclusion for the episode

[@elliotcrossan6290]

@@mayotango1317 I don't love it. The RTD era is my favourite by far, but Series 2 is the weakest of that era, and the dynamic between the Doctor and Rose is partly why. I bloody love Doomsday though.

[@WithADashOfPazazz]

​@@elliotcrossan6290 same here

[@bigboymedia453]

I would argue that she fell in love with him and he didn’t. For example, the doctor would save renette regardless of his feelings, not just this but when he exclaims he kisses her it’s more of a wow she’s famous kind of thing. I struggle to defend the party scene but that’s it

[@themostbritishpersonalive868]

He left at his first chance so yeah I'm pretty sure he didn't fall in love with her

[@andylikesstuffchannel]

Agree with you this H W is a flawed reviewer the worst thing is kids might watch this rubbish and believe this moron

[@bigboymedia453]

AJBs Models that rather harsh. I think he is a good reviewer and he just has different opinions and interprets episodes different ways, I just happen to disagree with him on this one

[@bigboymedia453]

AJBs Models I do agree that it could put people off but they should learn that they can make their own opinions. Whenever I watch something I listen to what people say but go in with an open mind and make my own decision on what I think.

[@putridmoldyman306]

@@andylikesstuffchannel Kids like you?

[@TheLewistownTrainspotter8102]

The problem with this episode is Moffat's out-of-character writing of the Tenth Doctor and Moffat's classist disrespect for Rose. The technical plot of the clockwork droids is fine and all that, but for one episode, the Doctor becomes a nasty liar to his companions, and is also rather dismissive of Rose, treating her like Mickey, basically. For one episode, Rose is painted to be like a shrewish or nagging wife. And Moffat does not just stop at setting up Rose as the nagging wife type character either. Moffat makes it clear in interviews that he dislikes Rose. And then he does everything he can to downplay her importance in later episodes. He has said things that make me believe he is both classist and sexist, and that's just too bad. Because he's smart, and a good episode writer (Eccleston said he loved Moffat's scripts). I loved "Blink". But Moffat is not a good guy, and it shows in how, when he was showrunner, he didn't have RTD's grasp of character and relationships. He also sets up the relationship with Reinette as a sexual relationship. In light of that, the Doctor’s relationship with Reinette takes on a really skeevy tone. Now it feels more like an extramarital affair, where he’s going off to have fun and escape the nagging wife at home. I mean, I know that is not what actually is going on here, but it’s the tone of the thing. The sexual nature of the Doctor and Reinette’s relationship is strongly hinted at. In Moffat’s previous episodes “dancing” was used as a euphemism for sex. And that’s gross, especially when you consider that he’s known Reinette for barely an hour, and when he’s just abandoned the woman he’s been traveling with (and it’s been hinted that he has romantic feelings for) on a spaceship thousands of years in the future. So essentially, the Doctor is abandoning the "old lady" who won't let him have fun and nags at him in order to have fun with the woman who will "dance" with him. Awesome. (And it's actually a recurring trend of Moffat's to sideline the companions in his episodes from the RTD era. In "Girl in the Fireplace," he shoves Rose to the side so the Doctor can have indulge his need to see a pretty girl. This happens again in the Library two-parter in series 4 that Moffat wrote: he sends Donna, who's more like the Doctor's big sister, back to the TARDIS so the Doctor can have an adventure with his future wife. Also a recurring trend of Moffat's that you see here is the one where the Doctor meets someone as a child and they develop a huge crush on him before they ever know him as an adult) In just the episode prior to this, "School Reunion", the Doctor told Rose that he would never leave her behind. Then in this episode he decides he needs to go save Reinette… and in the process abandons and strands Rose (and Mickey) on a spaceship in the 51st century with no way of getting home. Now how is it that I know that "Girl in the Fireplace" is where the Doctor acts out of character and not “School Reunion”? It's because the other episodes in the season support the characterization of the Doctor that we see in "School Reunion". In "Army of Ghosts", when he asks Rose how long she’s going to stay with him and she replies, "Forever", you don’t see this look of panic on his face as he thinks of ways to ditch Rose. In the very next story that follows "Girl in the Fireplace", the Cybermen two-parter, when Rose wants to go looking for her AU father in Pete's World, the Doctor doesn’t just say "good riddance!" and let her do whatever in the AU while he fixes the TARDIS and then abandons her there. No, he goes running after her. In "The Impossible Planet", when things start to go south, he wants to get back up to Rose so that they won’t be separated. It really seems then, that "Girl in the Fireplace" is the episode he is out of character in. Secondly, how stupid is the Doctor asking an established historical figure to go traveling in the TARDIS? And on top of all of that the character and relationship writing is so completely lazy. Instead of trying to make the Doctor and Reinette have any actual interaction that would lead to real feelings or a relationship, Moffat takes some really lame shortcuts. The Doctor goes in already knowing who Reinette is, he doesn’t need to get to know her. She’s really just this historical figure that he has a crush on. And then to short cut the “getting to know you” phase of the relationship, Reinette just magically looks inside of the Doctor’s mind. (The saving grace of that scene is that no matter how it was written--obviously the intent was to show that Reinette fits *so well* into his life--David Tennant played it the way it should have been played, and was obviously disturbed that she'd gone into his mind. He never acts like this is an attractive thing. Because even if Moffat doesn't, Tennant understands the sci-fi/fantasy rule that nonconsensual telepathic contact is a violation. In this case, akin to being groped) This episode would make more sense in series 5 if it were the Eleventh Doctor with Amy and Rory, not the Tenth Doctor with Rose and Mickey. It would fit so much better with a Doctor designed by Moffat, and not in the middle of developing his relationship with Rose. It'd also match how Eleven talked to Cleopatra, too. Yes, the fact that Eleven treats historical ladies like conquests is an issue… but at least it would be consistent.

[@MarieDesJardin]

I agree with this analysis. Moffat is weak at understanding character and developing relationships on screen. He jumps forward so the audience must fill in the off-screen evolution. I find it hard to enjoy Moffat episodes even on first viewing, because of the plot holes and character violations. The Doctor isn't written with any kind of continuity here, and it damages my enjoyment of the episode.

[@PeterEvansPeteTakesPictures]

I've got to agree with you. The very reason why I love the Russel T. Davies run is the very reason I really cannot warm to Moffat's, despite some very good stuff in his early run. RTD's Doctor Who was about the magic, wonder and fear of having your ordinary life suddenly opened up in front of you and allowing you to become something more. Not a super-hero, just someone who steps up. These were ordinary people - a shop assistant, a doctor in training, a temp - who end up making a difference. (I always wanted the idea of after the Doctor leaves them they become something more in their own world. Martha working for Doctors Without Borders say, Rose travelling Earth and helping others.) In Moffats run the Doctor only meets people who he deems special already, and by special he kind of means those who are instantly in love with or obsessed with him in some way. 'The impossible girl', Amy Pond 'the girl who waited', River Song 'the girl whose entirely life revolved around the Doctor, pretty much'. This wasn't so bad with Amy Pond, there was a fairy-tale aspect to it I kind of liked, and she was still kind of normal - if increasingly badly written and unlikable throughout her tenure. But very quickly I began to feel that you could only travel with the Doctor if you were in his quirky cool club, and there was a kind of contempt shown to everyone else who wasn't a historical figure or someone who was a super-human in some way. And every relationship as you say became a timey-wimey 'hey we're already in love!' kind of shorthand thing where nothing of interest is learned or felt by either character as it all just comes across as some sort of shipping fanfic. As to Girl in the FIreplace I quite enjoyed it when i first saw it, though I felt troubled at the notion the Doctor could just leave them behind on that ship. I also wasn't terribly convinced at their falling in love after a few hours of knowing one another. On rewatches it became very difficult to enjoy simply because of the amount of recycled Moffat material from Empty Child as regards the threat, and material he would go on to recycle ad nauseum in the character work and 'girl who waited' themes. As such Moffat left such a bad taste in the mouth by the end that although Chibnall is guilty of some bad writing, some lazy plotting, unsubtle preaching (I don't mind preaching when done with subtlety) and underwhelming concepts I still prefer him just for the fact that its about ordinary people being shown the universe, again.

[@BambiTrout]

@@PeterEvansPeteTakesPictures I get what you're saying. I love the warmth of RTD's era, and the characters feel so grounded and real. Moffat's era is a lot more cerebral and intricate, and focused on concepts over characters, which I personally really enjoy, but it can be a bit offputting at times. RTD wrote Doctor Who as a character show that just happened to be in the sci-fi genre. He took real characters, threw them into a bunch of situations, and saw how they developed. The plot is less important than how the plot affects the characters and their relationships. You feel like you are watching snippets of a real life. Moffat on the other hand wrote the show more like a sprawling fantasy novel or fairytale. WHAT happens to the characters and what they do as a result is the most important thing. He doesn't just throw characters into a situation and see how they react and resolve it; he starts with the overarching plot and concepts he wants to explore, and uses the characters to explore them. RTD's stories often featured commentary on the present day, and used the monsters as allegories and metaphors for problems that everyone faces - much like Buffy did. He used Doctor Who as a way to explore society from an outside lens, while Moffat used it more as a vehicle to explore more hard sci-fi concepts. RTD's introspection vs Moffat's exploration. This is not to say that Moffat can't write good characters, or RTD can't create interesting sci-fi concepts - because they both absolutely can - but the roots of their stories and writing style do not come from these respective places. The way they manage plotting and world-building is different too. RTD is very implicit, while Moffat is very explicit. RTD's stories are generally pretty vague about any of the setting outside of that which is required by the story, but they imply a greater universe outside of the lens that we see. Moffat tends to be more expository and explicit, showing a much more complete picture of the universe, but simultaneously reducing the room for imagination - our perspective is more controlled. If a character in a Moffat episode ever makes specific reference to something, it WILL be important, and you WILL be assessed on it when it becomes relevant in 4 episodes' time. It allows nerds like me to feel clever when we trace all of the threads and figure something out, but it can be a little bit alienating to more casual viewers, and in some ways makes the episodes less rewatchable because they are more finite. I do really enjoy Moffat's tenure, but I think that for the most part, his style of writing would almost be better suited to writing books than TV - or at least is not always the perfect fit for a family TV show. RTD's episodes are more universal, and are perfectly paced for 45 minutes because he focuses more on only telling you what you absolutely need to know, whereas Moffat episodes could feel a bit pinched due to being a bit more high-concept, or sometimes suffered in the conclusion because the concept was too open-ended. RTD could get away with bad concepts or some minor plot-holes easier, because as long as the characters worked, you could gloss over the issues. Whereas in most of Moffat's weaker episodes, the issues stem from a faulty concept - whether that concept is the monster, the situation, or the actual plot itself. The characters function more as plot devices with personalities, and so struggle to save the episodes alone. RTD episodes tend to thrive in the quiet moments where the characters get a chance to just talk to each other, while Moffat episodes tend to thrive in the action moments and in the moments where everything clicks. What I'm trying to say with all of this rambling is that both eras complement each other really well. My head likes the detail and intricacies of Moffat, but my heart will always belong to RTD completely. Meanwhile, Chibnall takes traits from each previous showrunner and applies them in the wrong ways. He has RTD's tendency to not explain unnecessary details, but with Moffat's overly expository dialogue and explicit style of storytelling. This results in a world that feels entirely confined to just what we see onscreen, and most characters just describe exactly what is happening to them at that precise moment, rather than talking like actual people. He has Moffat's tendency to use characters more as plot devices, but none of the intricate character arcs that would keep the characters interesting. He has RTD's focus on including meta-commentary, but none of the subtlety or subtext. RTD presented a commentary on pollution in several episodes, but it was never the focus - it was subtext. Meanwhile Orphan XX (forgot the number), just directly says: "This is Earth after pollution. Pollution is bad. Do better, viewers.". Moffat and RTD were great in different ways. Chibnall is just a bit shit. He has some cool ideas, but he is NOT a showrunner.

[@scotcheggable]

Basically moffat is a bad writer with good ideas. He's more like a self-insert fanfic writer than an actual professional writer. He does not care about established doctor who, he cares about the idea of doctor who and wants to change it to fit how he would prefer it to be, regardless of what came before.

[@mayotango1317]

Is funny because is the only episode of Series 2 that Rose is so likeable and nice.

[@zigzagzoom369]

I had really fond memories of this episode but kinda retroactively soured on it after reading some things Moffat said in an interview (basically comparing Rose to a "nagging housewife" and this story being about "The Doctor trading her in for a hotter model" which...yeesh).

[@Connor-ONeill]

I mean....was he really wrong?

[@atharvadeshpande6907]

Not the best ways to put it but series 2 rose really was unbearable (and shockingly conservative and regressive in some ways too! Remember when she asked a kid to go and make amends with his abusive father? Or how she treated micky? Or literally anyone who wasn't the doctor?)

[@QuiteSincere]

@@Connor-ONeill Yes. And generally revealing that, talent aside, he's kind of an ass.

[@altinaykor364]

@@atharvadeshpande6907 ignorant

[@altinaykor364]

@@Connor-ONeill more than just wrong

[@jaimej40]

You nailed it. I loved this episode the first time I saw it, but I never rewatch it because of the continuity issue. The doctor tells Rose he won’t leave her behind in the previous episode then proceeds to leave her trapped on a spaceship.

[@l692]

A character going back on their word isn't a continuity issue. People in real life make and break promises all the time. A continuity issue would be something like a character wearing a red tie in one scene and a blue the next simply because of a mistake. It is a tad out of character but not a continuity error.

[@sad_tbh]

It's a continuity issue for sure, not sure why you're being pedantic about it. He promises he'll never leave her, the next episode it's as if he never even said it. It breaks the flow (continuity) of the episodes.

[@zanakate7319]

I feel like this episode is so emblematic of why I have such strong DISDAIN for Moffat. This story reads like a fanfiction about women falling in love and fighting over a relatively cold self-insert Mary Sue type doctor. Rose acts like a whiney wife type who spoils the doctors fun (‘you’re not keeping the horse’). It was so INCREDIBLY out of character for 10 to just abandon Rose & Mickey on a spaceship with no way home (to literally DIE), for .... a flirt? We find out nothing about Renee beyond ‘she likes the doctor.’ Madam De Pompadour is a CHILD when she first meets the doctor for mere minutes and then in the next scene she’s... in love with him (creepy). You can really see the ties to the cracks of Amy Ponds story. The mind reading is a bit god-complex-y also. All in all it’s just rather tiring to get through as a young woman now. It’s so upsetting knowing that I loved this episode as a little girl. It’s so upsetting to know that something like this was ever praised. I’d hope we’ve progressed as a society and wouldn’t let this shoddy writing slide now.

[@PeterEvansPeteTakesPictures]

Amen. I remember about half way through Matt Smith's run my going, "No, hang on a minute," as regards all the Moffat rinse-dry-repeat shenanigans going on with the women and at that point, as soon as I saw his trick, the entire show just fell apart for me with its unsatisfying mystery-box story telling, endless empty grandstanding and terrible, terrible fast-talking yet characterless swooning meme-generating women.

[@DogsAreTheBest312]

I thought this episode was ok, but I HATED Rinette. And Doc is OOC here. Just goes swanning off with a french mistress while his companions are on a mysterious spaceship that he knows is being run by killer droids. I give it like a C

[@shurupchikchan6134]

Honestly, I agree with your every word!

[@Deathtrooper-jp1mm]

or the part when he tells mickey: we cannot break the glass we need like a tank to break it. 5 min later breaks the glass with actual horse. Steven Moffat is just an overrated writer nothing more

[@Comicbroe405]

@@Deathtrooper-jp1mm Nah he's good. RTD has his fair share of mid eps. Moffat was oe of the folks behind Heaven Sent.

[@altinaykor364]

@@Comicbroe405 by remembering the future events, Heaven Sent is bad as well.

[@roxiewynter8152]

I'm surprised to hear this is such a loved episode. I always found it a bit boring. It's the only episode I've skipped on my current rewatch. I do really wish the horse had become a companion though.

[@emmepemme95]

I agree. I've skipped it the last 2 or 3 times that I've watched the show, it just doesn't fit in with the rest of series 2 at all.

[@NeroLeMorte]

I found it boring

[@faerierose84]

I do hate this episode, both for how it sidelines Rose, and for how it does no justice to the real Mme de Pompadour. She was much more than just the king's mistress, she was his confidant and controlled access to him long after she'd left his bed to other women. I would've loved to watch an episode about one of the major political figures of 18th century France. Alas, Moffat does not write women that way... They have to be sexy (never mind that Mme de Pompadour may have been asexual.)

[@ValerieSparrowW]

where did you get the thing abt Mme de Pompadour may have been asexual? i researched it but couldnt find anything about it

[@bookishtook]

I definitely think this could have been a wonderful story, but it was in the wrong place and with potentially the wrong Doctor. Regardless of how you feel about Ten and Rose’s relationship, the fact was that they cared deeply about one another, and here he just abandons her to essentially die on this spaceship, as there’s no guarantee of him ever getting back. I think this could have really been a stand-out Christmas episode, with the Doctor either traveling on his own or appearing on a spaceship with people who had means of travel away from it, with each time window being a different Christmas in Reinette’s life. That way, you don’t have the Doctor abandoning anyone, and he’s free of other emotional attachments that made him getting so quickly invested in Reinette implausible, but it also makes for a good climax because he’s abandoning the TARDIS to save Reinette. I also think this episode feels written more to an Eleventh Doctor characterization over the Tenth. Basically, I wish this was a Christmas special during Eleven’s time, because it really is a great idea that was just executed poorly.

[@canadian__ninja]

It makes me think this story was written with season 2 of Eccleston in mind and given without changing anything to Tennant. The Rose/9 love interest was there but not nearly as strong as it was with Rose/10 and it would have been more natural with him.

[@SHADOW1414]

I remember being jarred by the difference in how he treated Rose in this episode. Definitely should have left it earlier in the season, or made it a Christmas episode.

[@IdontknowwhatImdoing539]

What would of instantly made this episode infinitely better? Have Mickey meet and fall in love with reinette instead of the doctor. Think about it, it would of allowed him the chance for more character development (something he needed for his first proper episode travelling in the tardis, plus would of added to his departure in the next story ) also the experience would of allowed him further insight into the doctor and create an understanding between the two of them

[@krimson8317]

That would've been so good holy shit. Mickey would've gotten a lot more love from the general audience and it wouldn't have taken away from the Rose and Doctor dynamic

[@shurupchikchan6134]

I never really liked Girl in the Fireplace, it feels a bit off, just as you said, especially if you are a big Rose fan. There is also a reoccurring theme about classes like Rose is from lower-class and Renette is from aristocrats and it's not really that great.

[@mayotango1317]

Ha ha ha. Rose Tyler is a alpha bitch.

[@thomaskirkness-little5809]

I like this episode, but those are some really poorly-programmed robots. [The ship needs spare parts] + [we can travel anywhere in time and space] = [we should carve up the crew and go spy on some long-dead Frenchwoman instead of popping to the nearest spare parts depot]

[@GwydionAE]

Huh. Someone else willing to point out the continuity/characterization flaws in this one. Nice. Like you, I certainly don't hate it, or even really dislike it, but I've always been a character-over-plot person, and the use of the main cast here has always put a damper on it for me.

[@thechancan5254]

I never really acknowledged this before this video but the only thing I've ever liked about this episode was the creepy body horror aspect of it, I never liked the romantic aspect and I hated watching Rose just lying around waiting to be rescued. That felt really lame and ooc. It was basically just a practice run for Amy who also just sat around waiting to be rescued.

[@titularhero]

Surprised you wouldn't mention that this episode heavily implies the doctor is the count of St gemaine, a mysterious real life historical figure that kept popping up and french courts, without appearing to age, or giving a real name.

[@wormtimebabey2075]

it's one of the best episodes to watch when i just want an emotional, visually striking, enjoyable doctor who episode, but i completely agree with the moffat-isms, although i can't see them that clearly through the tears. i just want to point out the INCREDIBLE costumes here. All of the costume work is something that i think most people overlook but the makeup and hair of the french elite and the costumes of all of the characters in Versaille are simply gorgeous. The thought and detail, and above all making the outfits not costumey but realistic is just incredible.

[@HarboWholmes]

Very true, the costuming department did a fantastic job with this episode

[@nightowl8477]

Who'd have thought ransacking the wardrobe of a BBC period drama would pay off so well?

[@moonraven6145]

Yeah the part where he broke the time window trapping himself in the past while just leaving Mickey and Rose on the spaceship was pretty out of character, at least in The Parting of the Ways he tricked Rose by having the Tardis take her home to keep her safe when he thought he was going to die.

[@harry_page]

I love the subtle end reveal when the doctor and co. never find out why the droids wanted Madame de Pompadour specifically, then it pans out and we see that the ship is called SS de Pompadour or something like that, so they thought its namesake was its pilot (also, I can't remember because it's been a while since I watched it, but didn't they want her when she's 43 because the ship is 43 years old aswell?) I like the whole concept of the space robots trying their best but not knowing what to do, even though it's repeated from the empty child

[@zanakate7319]

It really shows Moffat just has 3 plot lines he cycles thorough...

[@harry_page]

@@zanakate7319 I guess he liked his plot devices so much he had trouble stopping himself from reusing them xD

[@catmix]

Personally I feel like GitF could've been really good, but the romance aspect was weird and I wish that there had been more consequences as a result of the Doctors choices

[@AdriaOliSal]

Imagine if this episode got to be a two parter where Rose and Mickey got to meet the last survivors of the crew and we got more time to develop the doctor's feelings for Reinet and Rose... I wish

[@libby_b0145]

I’ve never been a big fan of this episode. I like the clockwork droids but I hated the romance. It didn’t make sense that the doctor would fall in love, when series 2 was acting like a love story between the doctor and rose. But this is all forgotten in this episode. The Doctor leaving Rose and Mickey, I didn’t like either

[@nightowl8477]

Russell refused to edit Steven's scripts out of respect. He really should have (just this once) to at least write Rose properly. All its other failings are excusable, but not really Rose.

[@A1exBOfficial]

@@nightowl8477 Ooh right? Didn't know that RTD didn't edit this!

[@veganvipers11]

According to RTD, Girl in the Fireplace was supposed to be the first episode for season 2, based on the original episode release list. Which would make sense as to why the Rose and Doctor love story gets shoved to the side during this episode.

[@ceciliaslepmet4840]

Still wouldn't make sense

[@PsyrenXY]

I agree that this episode, and the fans' ardour for it, are deeply weird. 10 essentially grooms a historical figure, abandons Rose for her repeatedly (including permanently, at least as far as he knew), then was planning to take her travelling despite her entire life being one giant fixed point only to be saved from that monumentally stupid decision by the even stupider decision of running back across the time window without her to leave her to die of illness pining for him. And then the whole thing never gets mentioned again. "Overrated" is a great word for it. This whole episode would have worked way better if 10 had no companions at the time. No Rose and Mickey would have meant no weird abandonment of his duty of care, and a lot more time to flesh out the growing chemistry between 10 and Reinette. I think even an A rank is too generous for this one, its just a mess. And the episode never properly explains why the ship was targeting her to begin with, is it purely because of the ship's name? If it had been the SS Hitler would the repair droid have bored a time-hole into WW2?

[@WitchEnbyWitch]

David Tennant and Sophia Myles's chemistry seems great at first, until you remember the two of them were in a romantic relationship at the time of filming... Lazy casting to make an out of place relationship feel more real.

[@jcksparrowfan]

I actually really loved the "B-plot" of this episode, cuz you see a side to Mickey and Rose's whatevership we hardly ever see when she's off with the Doctor.

[@LlorDrei]

The thing about this episode is, it is a microcosm of the entire Amy Pond plot line, from start to finish, all crammed into one episode.

[@petercdowney]

No, it's not overrated. His most overrated episode is, by far, The Angels Take Manhattan.

[@sad_tbh]

is that really overrated? I don't know many people who say they enjoy it that much. Everyone usually think it's the weakest of the weeping angel stories. I think it's only redeeming quality is that it's a good episode when compared to the rest of season 7... That season (particularly the latter half) was very weak. That, and it was a relatively decent way to kill off Amy and Rory. I think the sudden shock and surprise of it works well.

[@nathanielmalikgan5527]

@@sad_tbh agreed

[@altinaykor364]

oh, definitely

[@samuelbarber6177]

I'm sorry, I can't like this episode as much as everyone else, I can't hear it over my yelling: "DUDE! YOU HAVE A TIME MACHINE! USE IT!" God.

[@RedstonPhysics13]

It's my personal headcannon that the TARDIS still can't be used as in one episode (I cannot remember which) the Doctor mentions that the TARDIS cannot move once it becomes part of events so the doctor has to use the fireplaces unless he wants to completely leave and not return.

[@RWoody1995]

@@RedstonPhysics13 I don't think that's how it's meant. It's more of a issue that the TARDIS shouldn't be used to travel to a time/place it's already present. It technically can be as this is a rule 9 broke when he took Rose to see her dad, saw him get run over and then travelled back a few minutes to see him get run over again. It's just very risky as it could cause a paradox such as 20 year old rose touching baby So as long as the doctor ensures he always lands in chronological order and never lands before a past TARDIS has left, he could use it as much as he needs to in this story.

[@annejeppesen160]

@@RWoody1995 trouble is The Doctor isn't exactly known for landing where he intended 🤔

[@mayotango1317]

To be honest, that is a problem in most of the RTD era. That the TARDIS is more a car that a time machine.

[@greghawkins59]

I don't think the doctor trapping himself in the past is much of an issue because he can literally just wait it out and find a nifty way back, like borrowing his past self's tardis or captain jack's time agent wristband. Or, at some point in the future, he could ask River, Clara or Yaz to go rescue him.

[@danm3882]

The scene under the bed scared me for years of looking under by bed throughout my childhood.

[@seanwatson446]

That scene literally gave me nightmares for a long while so it stop me from having them I would watch the episode everyday till I wasn't scared of them no more. Good times

[@DEBest95]

Yeah, my biggest problem with it is that I know some behind the scenes stuff and know that Moffat didn't really look up what happened in the episode before at all making the development of Mickey barely regarded and also the fact that Rose wasn't too excited to even have Mickey there in the first place.

[@greghawkins59]

Never noticed the moffatisms and I don't dislike them even now I do. In fact the only bit I don't like is the rené death situation, which ironically isn't a moffatism

[@russelltietjen4407]

I was genuinely shocked when I found out that people loved this episode so much. I was never able to get into it for the soul reason that Renette and The Doctor have spent all of 5 minutes together across 30+ years for her and 30+ minutes for The Doctor and thus I was completely unable to buy the romance. Also when the episode came out, I was 10 and was really looking forward to the Cybermen coming back in the next week.

[@mattthesilent777RED]

In my alternate universe where the Doctor is always female, the kiss between the Doctor and Reinette... still happens...

[@bluewolf194]

8:10 If only David Tenant had played a character that acts like that.

[@mackenziemcrae8737]

bluewolf194 *Crowley has entered the chat*

[@garylouk8776]

It’s a nice episode. Very good with a heartbreaking ending. But should not be considered the best of new who and not in my top 10

[@osmo2384]

When my friend watched the empty child two parter for the first time, they were slightly underwhelmed because they expected it to be scarier than it actually was, however he enjoyed girl in the fireplace because of the way it uses the doctor to switch between scary and funny so seamlessly.

[@halfeatenshoe2306]

This episode and Moffatisms in general have aged so poorly. I didn’t pick up on a lot of the problems when I was younger, but so much of the feelings that the episode wants to evoke feel so shoehorned in upon a rewatch. Especially as a woman, a lot of the Moffat era feels way weirder to watch than it did to younger me. That the Doctor meets Reinette when she’s seven, for example, is very strange considering how quickly the romance is thrust upon the viewer.

[@KatieRuby]

Yeah I'm actually not a fan of this one! I do love Sophia Myles and the look and soundtrack of this episode is brilliant but something about it feels off to me. If it had been placed somewhere else in the series, it might have worked a bit better but for the Doctor and Rose to go through what they have done and also have had quite a serious conversation (in the last episode!!) about their future together, it seems really off for him to leave her like that! It also didn't really make the most of having Mickey on board (I think I'd have liked a more fun, lighthearted episode almost like Boomtown before he left in AoS.) It also uses a lot of Moffat tropes like the woman meeting the Doctor as a child and becoming infatuated like Amy, River, Clara to an extent aswell. So yeah not my favourite!

[@presentfuture7563]

The headcanon I've got that makes it just merely palatable (not a fan here either) is that they're both on a sort of rebound from that sobering conversation and the meeting with Sarah Jane that precipitated it. Rose, knowing that there have been "others," has her earth boyfriend with her in the TARDIS, and the Doctor gets summarily bowled over by a legendary figure who could have had any man wrapped around her finger. To borrow from Friends, it's almost as if they're "on a break," and Mme. is the one-off side chick. I would have liked it better elsewhere in the series, like 3 or 4, the whole continuity issue kind of ruins it.

[@RichieReviews1]

I think the reason this episode gets such high praise is because everyone always Forgets it exists and is then suprised by its quality. Personally I think this episode is still better than blink but good point about the moffatisms because I never actually noticed that

[@mayotango1317]

Is the only episode that Rose is likeable.

[@sad_tbh]

woahwoahwoahwoahwoah, this episode is not better than Blink. That's a hot take and I disagree.

[@altinaykor364]

@@mayotango1317 shut it

[@altinaykor364]

nah, blink is the only good episode of Moffat in RTD era, because at least there, he hasn't forced his own personal feelings on the story

[@nightowl8477]

It's pretty perfect for how many ideas it has in its limited runtime, but I agree it's overrated. *I couldn't fault it, but there are better episodes.* *Actually, I lied. I can totally fault this thing:* - The "romance" between the Doctor and Madame de Pompadour is forced and superficial - she practically has no character besides occasional readings of her wikipedia page! - As nice as Mickey's presence is, this is basically his one and only adventure that doesn't serve as his introduction or exit as a companion, and he does nothing. What a waste of Noel. - Rose is entirely out of character. - Whilst Tennant's performance is brilliant, this does feel like a story written for Eleven. But the good stuff of this episode? *Damn, it's good:* - "Space-age clockwork! I've got chills!" The faceless, emotionless nature of the droids, *plus* their body-horror methods makes for such a singular flavour of sci-fi. - The clashing of pre-revolutionary France with the post-50th Century spaceship gives the episode such a unique look, which (my favourite Doctor Who director) Euros Lynn goes to town with - it's so striking! - It has one of Murray's best scores, in my opinion. - There's this brilliant escalation of narrative all round, the story is really well structured considering the concept could fill a two-parter. *I really like this one, and - whilst it has issues - I'd still reccomend this as a newcomer's opener.*

[@nightowl8477]

Christ, that's long. Just shows how much I love it, faults and all.

[@hermiona1147]

Wow this really does make more sense as a second episode of the season

[@tomrichardson6233]

How you're getting these reviews out so quickly and consistently is seriously impressive keep it up!

[@HarboWholmes]

I try my best

[@tomrichardson6233]

@@HarboWholmes you're doing great keep it up!

[@xenon8117]

9:30 They have the Tardis. Even if somehow it doesn’t want to bring them home even though we know it is a sapient entity they could live their lives inside quite comfortably and still have contact with Earth with her phone and any other tech lying around.

[@katokianimation]

There is a protocol, if the Doctor dosen't come back and long enough time pasted, the tardis will bring the companion(s) back to home. The same protocol was activated manually when the 9th send Rose back to Earth.

[@xenon8117]

Zac It does sound more fun.

[@kingsfoil5844]

@@katokianimation he manually activated that, did he not?

[@uhlan30]

Not only that, but the Doctor went into the past, and as a time lord is essentially immortal, so he could have just waited thousands of years and then hitched a ride to the spaceship Rose and Mickey are on, where it could have been mere minutes since they last saw him from their perspective. Still, I do think it’s a pretty big oversight that the episode just doesn’t bother explaining any of these possibilities when the Doctor decides to strand himself in the past. Just having him say a simple “Wait 10 minutes, and if I don’t show, the TARDIS will take you home” to Rose and Mickey would have made it feel a lot less like the Doctor is just abandoning them to be left stranded on the ship.

[@BadWolfRT]

@@uhlan30 That was my thought as well, but the problem with that is that the Doctor doesn't know what ship they're on and doesn't know any precise dates. Like, all he has to go on is a century and perhaps the model of the ship? But space is huge, so I can't imagine the Doctor being able to just stumble across the right planet where the ship takes off. He wouldn't know what ship to search for or what exact time period to look in. ('Cause if he did have a more accurate date, I'd imagine the name of the ship would be a giveaway, but he doesn't.) I agree with you that the episode should have made it textual that the Doctor would be able to find the ship again. Also, if the TARDIS does take Rose and Mickey home, he would have a pretty accurate idea of when to go to London in that case, so he could have rejoined them that way.

[@nightowl8477]

This episode was intended to be the opener of Series 2 originally, which explains the four settings key to Doctor Who: *earth and space; past and future.* With Mickey as a surrogate for the audience! Brilliant!

[@Puster2]

I would like to add that this Episode even deals with the Doctor's state of mind, as is displayed at the very end after Ten re-enters the Tardis. That subtle hint towards a depressive state was much better handled than in the most recent season. Most likely overlooked the quick exchange between Rose and the Doctor "Are you alright?" "I am always alright". Mickey would and did get that, given that losing Rose to the Doctor must have put him in the same state of mind. Given that in our time I would also answer the same way to not show my state of mind to friends, coworkers, etc. due to the "complicated" relationship between society and Depressions this was put in very well. One could also argue that this is an early indicator as to what was later to come in "The Day of the Doctor" as The Moment calls Ten "The one who regrets". This would also be mirrored by the kind of response the Doctor uses. This episode has a tendency to bring me to tears at the end, beginning from Ten entering the Tardis and Reinettes voice-over. This is also facilitated by Murray Golds excellent score.

[@intergalactic92]

I would argue it’s setting up for Rose to leave. It followed on from a discovery that the Doctor had companions before her and in which it is established that she would eventually be forced to leave (or be abandoned), and now she is seeing the Doctor have fun with someone new and seemingly forgetting all about her. Honestly the rest of the season should have continued along this vein because the one thing I always struggle with in series 2 is the Doctor's relationship with Rose. Is he interested in her or isn’t he? It’s like the writers couldn’t agree either, when you look at episodes like this.

[@themostbritishpersonalive868]

The doctor can live for thousands of years per regeneration so he can't fall in love because he's the longest living thing in the universe

[@DsRelaxingSounds]

I really feel like it was just Moffat who didn't like their relationship.

[@alfredjohnson2647]

There's a line in 'School Reunion' where the Doctor stops just short of telling Rose that he loves her. Sarah Jane in 'School Reunion' and Mme De Pompadour both recognise how much Rose loves the Doctor. I think Mme De Pompadour recognises the one-sidedness of the situation from her perspective, which is why she offers him a way back rather than insists he stay with her.

[@morphman86]

I found The Girl In The Fireplace to be dragged out, derivative and over-indulgent myself. Very little emphasis on the mystery, a lot of emphasis on The Doctor (in exactly the wrong way) and a plot taken straight from Moffat's earlier episode, showing just how quickly he runs out of ideas and try to fill it with references and shiny distractions. I know it's a hot take in today's climate, but I think Moffat is possibly the worst thing to have happened to New Who. Yes, worse than Chibnall. You may complain about how Chibnall rewrote the Timelord history all you want, Moffat did the same and much worse, and then forgot his own headcanon in later episodes.

[@altinaykor364]

I keep saying this to myself: Chibnall didn't give anything to enjoy, yes I agree, but at least what he wrote were harmless

[@morphman86]

@@altinaykor364 I think that might be the best word for it, harmless. I really enjoyed some Chibnall episodes, but with a gun to my head I couldn't name any specific one.

[@Stephneechan]

Why do you keep calling her Renée instead of Reinette though XD

[@ricksinjr5543]

Yeppp just commented this too. Infuriated me haha

[@Little_Yu-Gi]

Unpopular opinion, I’ve never liked this episode - the lack of French accents, seeing the doctor acting drunk... and the long drawn out scenes of dialogue always just seemed boring to me. This is an episode I actually skip when rewatching the series.

[@frazzlesreviews5379]

What I don’t understand is why didn’t the Doctor send Rose and Mickey home via the TARDIS like in the parting of the ways? And as a matter of fact the episode was actually written without Mickey there as it was meant to be the opining episode of series 2 after the Christmas invasion. I find that quite interesting and I often wonder would Russel T Davies have stayed as showrunner longer if he could get different people to write the majority of episodes leaving him to focus on the production.

[@nightowl8477]

That question about Russell is really interesting! Late on in Series 4, Steven made an offer whereby Russell would do Series 5 if Steven did more one-off episodes to lighten the load. Russell was extremely grateful, and did consider the offer, but obviously turned it down and gave the show in its full to Steven as they had first agreed. He felt his mind was wandering to other projects.

[@william...1]

you’re thicc! you’re soooo thicc! you’re from thicctown thiccania - AND SO’S YA DAD

[@staceywatson294]

Agree with these points, this episode just isn't for me. I'm not the biggest Rose fan, but the Doctor completely disregards Rose and Micky in this and it just feels so out of character

[@DavidTyler]

The Doctor never learned that the ship he was on was named after madame de pompadour

[@RWoody1995]

I always find it pretty ridiculous the doctor knowing of the fact that time passes faster on earth than in the ship. But then he uses the ships time portals to travel back the final time? Even though there's no longer any reason to use them... he only needed them because it helped figure out why the ship robots built them and his whole shtick is that he HAS A TIME MACHINE that he could've used to ensure he lands just a moment after he last talked to madame de pompedour instead of the pot luck method of reusing the time portals. Of course they wanted to find a reason for him to leave her but they could've done it in a more sensible way like "time turbulence" causing him to land at the wrong time despite using the Tardis (i.e. the explanation he used for why 11 couldn't go back for amy and rory)

[@andvitzeninn]

I wouldnt give this episode more than a D, let alone an A. Too many plot holes, a ridiculous resolution to the "stuck on the past" problem that doesn't make a single sense, terrible dealing with madame and doctor's relationship (instead of giving us scenes where they bond, we get them snogging and flirting all the time despite had JUST met), the half baked romance that makes no sense, the waste of the living parts of the crew plot that could've been morally amazing. Doctor being so out of character that is almost like I'm watching Tennant being forced to play the Eleventh doctor, etc. And on top of that, is almost criminal what it does to rose character. Im not even talking about moffat dumping tenrose, which is a whole other problem, but Rose is a huge plot-pushing character, in almost if not every episode she's in she does things to launch the episode further and things happen because of her. For Rose to be put as a side character who does nothing but kind of being there quietly is almost criminal to her character development. There are so many flaws on storytelling, characterization, continuity and pacing here that i think placing it as an A is already overrating it. The beautiful ending and cool concept are not enough to stand and A placement when the whole episode is built in sand foundation. Also the classist undertone of Reinette being "a proper" companion for the doctor, the meeting a child and kissing her after what was not more than twenty minutes for him, non consensual mind reading, nagging wife stereotypes, it was all a lot of moffat bas traits here for me to get to enjoy it whatsoever. So many factual problems that the relationship between Rose and the Doctor being disrespected becomes the smallest of the issues.

[@safebox36]

This episode and the concept of River Song are based on Moffat's love of the book The Time Traveller's Wife, I believe. And given that he's expected to write the TV series adaptation when it starts production, I wouldn't be surprised if similar elements appear there that weren't in the book or movie.

[@altinaykor364]

and when he finally got the chance to write that story for series, it got cancelled. ha ha, so satisfying, after all of the damage he caused on Doctor Who because of his obsession with that book

[@WithADashOfPazazz]

it's just really disrespectful to rose and mickey for that matter. saying reinette was better for him because she's "well educated." and i don't even like the 10/rose ship!

[@KnightsRealm98]

You know, the droids are kind of a mirror/foreshadowing for the Cybermen. Organic parts being dominated and butchered by technology, though while the droids use it to power their ship, the Cybermen use it as their skeleton... literally. Just kind of cool symmetry that would likely have been better if used earlier in the series.

[@julieeverett7442]

except for the fact we see the cybermen all the way back to the first doctor, they were very much fist!

[@caitlinb35]

Personally, I love the episode. It came to be long before Moffat's turn as showrunner, so I don't think it shouldn be faulted for what we now coin 'Moffatisms'. In retrospect, it's a bit more predictable/reliant on the same tropes, but that's with the foresight of having seen the entire series and especially Moffat's tenure. Yes, there is definitely something to be said about the way Moffat treats Rose as opposed to Renette, as well as some other things you pointed out; I can't deny the criticisms. But to me, "Girl in the Fireplace" is just a thoroughly enjoyable and entertaining episode; the clockwork robots (horror), the Versailles setting (historical), the timey-wimey wibbly-wobbly bits, even the romantic or at the very least dramatic elements. It feels like a mini-movie, something you could pop on, with a bit of everything. I agree, however, that for all I like the episode, it's impossible to defend The Doctor ditching Rose the way he does, because he promised the episode before he wouldn't. At the same time, it IS demonstrated over and over that The Doctor will go to incredible lengths to save anyone, even people he just met. I think on principle him going back to save Renette and the people of Versailles is not out of character, and actually extremely in-character; I just wish the Doctor had already figured out a plan to get back, or at least a hunch, so it didn't seem he so willingly and completely ditched Rose. This would have balanced out the romance plot to at least a believable degree, so maybe he has taken a liking to Renette, but he's doing what he does because that's who the Doctor is, he saves people, and he can still get back to Rose.

[@bmvthemoviefanatic7282]

LOL! Kinda surprised with the A rank considering all the criticisms. Also, I have never noticed the similarities between the Gas Mask Zombies and Clockwork Droids! But I don't mind it. The Clockwork Droids are the reason I don't have a clock that ticks XD I don't mind its Moffatisms, too, as it was one of the first and still well written. I personally love the story of a ship in the future stalking a woman in the past. It such a unique idea that really showcases Moffat's creativeness when it comes to time travel. I 100% agree, though, that the relationship between the Doc and Rene was a bit weird seeing she's met him twice as a child. Plus I too was also bugged by how the Doctor just left Rose and Mickey stranded on the ship at the end. Overall, as you said, probably Moffat's weakest during the RTD era, but that not bad, seeing all his episodes during the RTD era were PHENOMENAL! Keep rolling out the great videos!

[@Overlord7135]

Two things; Thing 1- it is pronounced re-neT, there is a t at the end of it Thing 2- I think I can forgive Micky not doing anything as it adds to his feeling that he is useless and the "tin dog" which becomes a major plot point in the next story.

[@annejeppesen160]

That mispronunciation ruffled my feathers, did he watch the episode on mute?

[@leedent7260]

French has silent Ts though?

[@anthonyjones6870]

@@leedent7260 not always, even in French the pronunciation is still "ruh-net"

[@katebrown8629]

@@leedent7260 Her name Reinette(it was a nickname meaning "little Queen") ended with ette so you pronounce the second t. :-)

[@leedent7260]

@@katebrown8629 fair point and that makes sense! Me from 6 months back is a big dumb dumb! 😅

[@alfiethomas5632]

I believe there are things in this episode to both criticise and commend, regardless of general stance on the story. The only thing I am sure of is that the clockwork droids were fucking terrifying the first time I saw this episode.

[@Tulf42]

The Girl in the Fireplace was basically The Eleventh Hour before it was cool, not to mention the 10th and 11th Doctors wore the swirly tie in both stories as well as Blink and other non Moffat stories. Maybe the Swirly Tie should be renamed the Moffat tie...

[@libbyford6765]

Really never likes this episode. It displays perfectly my problem with the doctor and rose relationship. The 9th doctor loved rose, and then after causing chemistry again, the doctor pushes rose aside for some fling with a historical figure. He clearly is not as good for rose as 9 was

[@alfiethomas5632]

Generally I think Rose peaked in Series 1 anyway, as a character. I know the point of her arc in Series 2 is to show how detached from herself she has become for The Doctor, but it does take away from the fact that Rose's original purpose was to bring some modern humanity into the show, which kind of disappears after School Reunion

[@bennidorfman5384]

8:23 Who else got major Crowley vibes from this scene?

[@shurupchikchan6134]

OMG YES. Have you also noticed that they both talk about bananas? I don't believe in coincidence.

[@nightowl8477]

@@shurupchikchan6134 - Neil is a big Doctor Who fan, so yeah, probably.

[@nathanielmorgan9108]

the doctor was just trying to save her he didnt return the affection she acknowledged that when she let him go through the fireplace

[@thetadoesstuff]

Girl in the Fireplace is my favourite new Who story ever I'm ngl, I absolutely love it and yeah it has the same basic concept as Empty Child but that's because you've basically watered down the concept of Empty Child. The story is a lot more than confused robots doing what they think is right. Quite a lot of DW stories share basic plots like that, it's no fault of Moffat as DW has been doing it for ages

[@TomatoTerrace]

Nostalgia has a big part to play in this, but for me, it will always be one of my favourite Doctor Who episodes and I truly believe it is in the top five for New Who episodes. I think if one episode encapsulates what Doctor Who is about, it’s this one where the historical and futuristic settings meet one another within one story. Not only that, but it’s a wonderful historical setting with a great character to focus on in Madame de Pompadour with the clockwork droids being one of the scariest New Who villains. I disagree with the point about the droids becoming less fearful when it is revealed they are only programmed to harvest for spare parts, i think that only adds to their scariness because there is literally no reasoning with a droid that is programmed to do one thing, it has no sense of morality or reason - however, I do take the point that the idea was already done before by Moffat with the Empty Child. As for the annoyance of ‘Moffatisms’ as mentioned a few times, I think that’s an incredibly unfair criticism of this episode. As also mentioned, this episode came out well before ‘Moffatism’ was even coined as a phrase or concept and I understand that it’s hard to ignore that style on rewatch once you’ve seen it done time and time again later, but I think it’s unfair to judge an episode on the basis of what came afterwards as that completely misses the point of what this episode achieved at the time it first aired. I agree, this was the first of many uniquely Moffat-styled episodes that we would later become accustomed to, but I think it’s important to emphasise that at the time, this was the first and therefore it was viewed as an outstanding piece of work, which in my mind, it still is. I also think the love story between the Doctor and Renette is fascinating which gives this story another edge. I personally never saw the Doctor as being in love with Renette, but I do think he heavily rued over what could have been if only their lives could run alongside each other, which I think gives it more emotion, similar to Joan Redfearn in Human Nature/The Family of Blood. As Moffat says, Renette was the fling at the party, the love that could have been but never was - I think that’s a beautiful analogy for how the Doctor viewed the situation. This episode made me fall in love with the concept of time travel and the complications it can create with interpersonal relationships, and ultimately, that is down to Moffat and his obsession with ‘timey wimey’ concepts, so I will always be grateful for this episode and I’ll always love it.

[@altinaykor364]

childish

[@EshfulCookie]

On the point of the similarities between the Clockwork Droids and Nanogenes detracting from the effectiveness: the very next episode is the Cybermen! The exact same plot of robots killing humans for their body parts is repeated right away. As a standalone it's great but like you said just doesn't fit in the series.

[@sonicthecheese6467]

i saw someone say once that mickey should of had the doctors storyline in this episode, idk if it would of made the episode better but it would of made mickeys development better

[@WGDN05]

The episode also forgets the part from school reunion where rose was annoyed that mickey came with them in the tardis

[@ariste01]

The whole time window thing just doesn't logically track at all though I struggle to explain all the reasons why. Like I understand it in my head as a big picture but breaking down all the little parts into a linear format so that I can explain it is hard. Like I'm sorry I just lack the ability to suspend my disbelief that far. Like if the fireplace was disconnected then how was she calling through it to the Dr at the outset of the final attack? Honestly I would have given it a C at best.

[@kiamosky4340]

Their relationship is like Amy and doctor, she was impressed by his existence that she held onto it until she met him again which created a spark And for doctor, it’s less about love and more of intrigue 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@CineScarborough]

I love this episode but you make some valid points. I can see why you feel that way about it.

[@jmace2424]

Imagine if they had used the human body part idea for this episode. Parallel Earth’s Harbo would be saying “Ugh look at that terrible CGI! Why couldn’t they have done the other thing instead?”

[@hermanhomer9501]

It may be an overrated episode but this is an underrated KZbin channel

[@class87fan54]

Thinking about it, the Doctor's OOC behaviour in this episode marks the beginning of Moffat's blatant disregard for RTD's writing. What's especially surprising is that RTD actually allowed the Doctor's characterisation in this episode to slip through. I'm not a fan of series 2 Rose, but she gets treated very badly in this episode. In the previous episode, the Doctor promised that he'd never abandon her, yet in this episode he does exactly that, abandoning her for a woman he's only just met. Reinette also gets some bad characterisation, coming across as a stuck-up tart. Honestly, what is it with Moffat and writing woman as tarts? Unfortunately, it seems that Moffat is somewhat elitist and sexist if his female characters are anything to go by.

[@mayotango1317]

Chibnall writting is more sexist, Yaz is so usseles and Jodie Whittaker is a idiot blonde.

[@wanderingshadow1372]

I think it comes down to jealously honestly. Moffat tears Rose to pieces in this episode because Rose is a better written female character than anything he had written or would write up to that point, and he knows that. Not editing this script heavily when it desperately needed to be is one of the few things I fault RTD for. But he said in an interview that he never wanted to edit a word of Moffat's scripts. I think it also shows the hidden one-sided friendship of RTD and Moffat. RTD doesn't edit any of Moffat's Series 1-4 scripts, and in return Moffat makes the entire RTD Era not matter with some Cracks in Time bull. Truly a stand-out friend to Russell you were, Moffat.

[@cja5612]

It's not even close to my top 15 Moffat stories 😂

[@kieraburgess3431]

Is it just me that finds it a bit weird he sees her as a kid and next minute he is making out with her and he and no one else questions it 😂

[@littlemiss_76]

David was dating Sophie Myles at that time.

[@l692]

I love this episode. I don't think things have to be groundbreaking or deep to be good. I loved it when I first watched it when I was 7. I love it just as much now i'm 20.

[@FTZPLTC]

Suspect a lot of people remember this one well partly because of not rewatching it lately.

[@Alia-bc3rc]

Blimey you got all my criticism about this episode on point. A lot of fans whined about Amy tried to kiss Eleventh Doctor or about Rose falling for Tenth - but ridiculously forgot when Tenth got drunk and (allegedly) have one night stand with Madame de Pompadour. In a weird way, I'm really glad that the writer didn't make Rose go all jealous like in School Reunion - but at the same time it also feels like it negates their story development. Mickey & Rose teaming up in the spaceship is a damn good bit, I hope we had more like these.

[@julieeverett7442]

and youre forgetting the fact the doctor is over 1500 years old, been married at least three times that we know of, has been engaged at least once as well, has at least 2 children we know of. Does this little insignificant little girl really think she can hold his attention? Really?

[@mattevans4377]

Notice how the most highly rated episodes are mostly Moffat episodes. Love him or hate him, he had his moments.

[@InimicalWit]

I think things like the tape and the clock being sort of slow creep revelations are actually good examples of the Doctor encountering similar ideas repeatedly; it shows how the Doctor is able to be more aware than companions who have never experienced such things before. It’s a great example of seeing how the Doctor has become so clever, as opposed to only ever showing the Doctor already aware of something the companion isn’t. While it is a fair point that a single author is reusing story elements; I think that’s only really valid if the character in each story is repeatedly caught unawares by subsequent encounters of a repeated element, or if we’re talking about an anthology series in which the author can be argued to expect the reader not to have learned.

[@mrwhatcanido4942]

but the music. its too powerful.

[@irisout7463]

I think it would have been interesting if the doctor left Rose and Mickey on the spaceship for an episode or two before figuring a way back to (or aging through the story) taking the slow road is definitely not preferred by the Doctor especially the 11th Doctor who has also in his finale stated “we all end up somewhere” which is something the 10th didn’t really explore. It seemed so easy for him to leave Rose in the parallel dimension without seeming upset at first or thinking about how it could affect her. I guess that Blink is the only episode in the 10th doctors era that he does get stuck but he works out a way to get back to the present. Then again also in Blink he was having Martha supporting him in the past. The doctor likes a life of privilege and cure. The privilege to explore but not dealing with the day to days of being a human and the curses of human connection and what it brings when “the time lord lives too long.” Imagine a story in the tenth doctors era where he had to live day to day, fell in love and had to deal with the loss of that person. Or an opposite type of story where the doctor and Master are confined without any gadgets or the TARDIS. I know it doesn’t play too well with themes like hope but I think it would be an interesting exploration on the character and could give something Rose and the doctor could have tension for which could have Rose abandon him for Mickey rather than just being okay with everything.

[@Joey15811]

Personally I think that given this was Mickey’s Only trip he didn’t join or leave it should have been a story with more for him and Rose and not a companion light one. He and Rose were just there this story. Actually this whole series could do with a reorder as every story from love and monster up to smith and jones are modern day too. I’d say this would be the best reorder: 1: The Christmas Invasion 2: New Earth (Mickey wouldn’t work this story) 3: School Reunion 4: The Idiot’s Lanturn 5: Rise of the Cybermen 6: The Age of Steel 7: The Girl in the Fireplace 8: Love and Monsters 9: The Impossible Planet 10: The Satan Pit 11: Fear Her 12: Tooth and Claw 13: Army of Ghosts 14: Doomsday Way too many modern day episodes even excluding runaway bride and smith and jones. Mickey would fit best in the Ood 2 parter or any of the historical setting episodes not involving space. As the Ood one is great and also a 2 parter thats a no and out of the histocials tooth and claw is a better lead in to the finale imo and harder to see what Mickey would do. While in Idiots lanturn I can see him becoming determined to save Rose and help Tommy in figuring out his feelings towards his dad. Failing that School reunion should be story 1 and Mickey have more stories in the tardis and fear her exchanged for another space story or alien planet episode or future earth adventure to not cram too mang modern day stories (yes parallel earth is counted as modern day as it feels the same entirely!)

[@markandresen1]

Moffatt admits he couldn't come up with a good reason why the droids wanted Mme. Pompadour. Annoying.

[@subbywan1422]

This is definitely one of my favorites. The droids were just scenery. It was Mme and the Doctor's loss that is the story. She cottoned on to him and his "secrets", faster than pretty much anyone else. Had she been a companion, she may have well outpaced, and left him behind.

[@dalekbumps]

Moffat's stories during the Davies era are all teasers for what his era would be like

[@PeterEvansPeteTakesPictures]

For me the ultimate version of the trailer being better than the film! :D

[@houseofno]

I LOVED The Girl In The Fireplace. Not overrated at all.

[@intergalactic92]

*Reinette* the t's are not silent. I was willing to let it slide the first time but the amount of times you get it wrong is grating.

[@HarboWholmes]

And there we go, I knew someone would pick up on it. My apologies

[@danilovonsquawk572]

The Doctor loved Rene? Really? I saw her loving him but I thought it was unrequited. The Doctor just liked her as a potential companion.

[@kurtwagner350]

Maybe I’m missing something but I never understood why he’s so sad after her passing and acts like he’ll never see her again. He literally has a time machine, can’t he just go back and see her? There is literally that moment when he passes through the fireplace and semi-promises to return and I always expect him to just show up the next second in the tardis.