Detachment is Total Immersion

[@drstevennemes]

Hello, I am that person on Twitter who was asking questions about detachment and immersion. Thanks very much for addressing this issue in a video! I’m not a Buddhist, but I have a philosophical interest in zen and in Kyoto school philosophy. I also very much enjoy your videos and the content you produce on KZbin. Thanks again!

[@seanhollandcanada]

I've had the experience while playing music, particularly when there's an audience, of the thought coming up, "I am playing music for these people." And that's usually where the music screws up. The 'goal' is to be able to play for an audience just as I would when alone and lost in the music. That takes practice. That's why I advise players who suffer from this to go to all the open mics and other opportunities to play in front of people. Eventually that separation of 'me' and 'those people who are listening to me' can fade and you can all be fully immersed and detached together. I like it when performers who are in that zone also applaud when the audience applauds because they all did it together.

[@joeg3950]

That feeling/sensation of total immersion - happened to me when I could run. MS took that away. Now, when I write, I get that same ol' feeling of total immersion. I just have to remember to proofread and edit afterward. Viva Ziggy!

[@prrojekt]

Ziggy looks pretty enlightened

[@macdougdoug]

Detached from my fears about my future, more care can be given to this moment

[@black_eagle]

Steve Perry had it backwards. The lyrics should be: "Do stop believin'. Don't hold onto that feeling." Not as catchy tho...

[@evoshroom]

Depends what you're believing in I suppose. Your verse didn't personally function, because I'm believing in science, which I continue believing in.

[@michaelmcclure3383]

Exactly right. The thought 'i am doing someone' comes after the fact... It's an interpretation. When i first got into spirituality i had been a painter for 6 years and was living alone meditating and painting. One night while painting it suddenly became spontaneous and completed itself. For some reason it was incredibly moving.. like a mini breakthrough. Prior to that point it had been a more effortful process, perhaps its like driving a car, early on it takes a lot of attention, but later it becomes easier. It was awkward for a while though, i didn't even want to sign pictures because i didn't feel like i was the doer of them. I guess everyone has a similar experience practicing some difficult skill.. there can be a learning curve and a moment when it becomes more effortless.

[@jasonmartin105]

Thanks Brad! Does this teaching relate to the 5 aggregates? Not sure if the five aggregates is also in zen though.

[@MyBenevolentCat]

I can really relate to this explanation of "mindfulness" or "wholehearted action" much, much more than i often can when teachers try to explain it. To me, this was a very realistic, everyday explanation. thanks. Would it be safe to say that "total immersion in activity detaches you from the ongoing, usually constant, usually very unnecessary thinking mind?"

[@HardcoreZen]

@@MyBenevolentCat yeah. I think so. But it’s important not to idealize that state.

[@MyBenevolentCat]

@@HardcoreZen Yeah. Definitely. I try to be as present as i'm able to all the time. Which, can get pretty tough with all the responsibilities and life to be lived. Zazen and quiet time help me re-center. But i gotta get out there and live too. Not easy a lot of the time.

[@JonTomasWhatley]

Love this! thank you! I read Hardcore Zen years ago. I'm looking for a quote from your teacher. It etched itself in my mind. I was telling a friend about it. It goes something like, Zazen is simply sitting stupidly. However, I would like to be accurate. Sorry if I murdered the quote. The etching in my find has somewhat faded.

[@delgodzilla1977]

Interesting timing on this video as I'm currently bracing myself for the possible passing of a very loved guinea pig. It feels very on the nose, the idea to be immersed as I definitely have an issue around death/dying so when our first set of guineas died my wife suggested we don't get any more because I tend to find it really hard. But I think that pain and grief is being fully imersed in life and death.

[@Fabrizio-px4rv]

If you think detachment is just "immersing yourself totally in an activity" it maybe some dogenism but absolutely not buddhism (see upadanakkhanda and jhana)

[@danshaffer5916]

I really appreciate it when you explain Dogen and the various translations of Dogen. Your books wonderful at explaining The Master.

[@fancee_shmancee]

Detached from needing things to be a certain way meaning, your mind isn't fighting against things and it relaxes. As a direct result you're totally immersed in the moment, not absorbed in your goals and resistances. Brad I still love your chapter in SDASU "Goal/No Goal." It helped me a lot years ago.

[@maciejgoralski1744]

rock on, dude.

[@Jigokucake-lg1xj]

I've always preferred the word "clinging" rather than "attachment." It kind of illustrates the human mind's tendency to rely on illusory notions of differentiation by invoking the imagery of desperately grabbing onto something. Of course even this kind of conversation is indicative of attachment lol Also you should actually do a 30-second video some time just to keep people on their toes.

[@WrongWorld23]

So it is like the flow state or what the taoists call wu wei?

[@Meoooweww]

If Ziggy 🐕 touches that 🌵 behind you while going pee- pee, he is going to have an enlightmentment experience!

[@dinninfreeman2014]

it sounds like its a question of what you are detaching from. People who detach in the sense of not caring about circumstances are detaching from circumstances. The people who detach in the zen sense it sounds like are detaching in the opposite direction, detaching from self in favor of the circumstance. Do I have that right?

[@TheTarutau]

It can be used to study play video games. You name it total immersion is total immersion. Art np. Poetry np. It makes the study of different techniques easier too since the mind no longer fights against the doing of something new. For me it was martial arts. But I also did other things and it bled through. Which led me to the assumption that it was cultivatable. It requires cultivating concentration clarity and equanimity in activity. Or non activity like sitting down. So maybe the thinking part is new in our evolution. And the not thinking part is older. Which jibes with what we have learned about biology. I.e. apes don't have a complex enough vocal chords to speak. But if they did it would take them probably as long as it took us to figure out how to speak. Which I think drove further evolution in what is known as monkey mind. And this monkey mind has allowed us to create a cloud in our minds of what it is that we learn and pass off to each other. Very complex biological system no wonder it took us so long to figure out our very definition of free will itself is illusory. Brain made.

[@jamesboswell9324]

In the zone, perhaps?

[@sunlovinsnowflake]

The Vimalakīrti Nirdeśa Sūtra made it all click for me. (I have only read Charles Luk’s translation)

[@jonwesick2844]

I understand that Dogen's Japanese is very different from modern Japanese? Do you find it challenging understanding Dogen in his original language?

[@evoshroom]

It is different from modern Japanese. It uses older Chinese characters, older words and older constructions. Dogen also uses wordplay as a technique. There have also been some language shifts in Japanese since the 1200's that even the well-known English translators are largely unaware of themselves. There is often content missing in English translations really and extra content that wasn't really there to begin with.

[@JimTempleman]

I read the opening of Nishiyama & Stevens's version as: “The great way of all Buddhas and the ultimate goal in Buddhism is TO CEASE ATTACHMENT TO life and death, and THUS REALIZE Enlightenment.” Original: “The great way of all Buddhas and the ultimate goal in Buddhism is detachment from life and death, and the realization of Enlightenment.” It is our very attachment to life and death that keeps us from Enlightenment! So stop clinging to your ideas of life and death and be free. Or as Bette Midler put it in her song: _The Rose_ “It's the heart, afraid of breaking That never learns to dance It's the dream, afraid of waking That never takes the chance It's the one, who won't be taken Who cannot seem to give And the soul, afraid of dying That never learns to live” Thoughts arise (come to life) and pass-away (death). We must _let go of_ our thoughts to enter Enlightenment. So stop clinging to your thoughts and be free!

[@gunterappoldt3037]

Me seems, the new Soto-shu version is nearer to the original text. Said passage (p. 243) is about the “exhaustive investigation of the great way“ via “making transparent and molting“ (text: “transcending“ Samsara aka (the continuun of) “life-[and-]death“. At least that' s the way I see it as part-time translator. But, of course, hermeneutics don't stop with this, because “truth needs time“, as the saying goes.

[@JimTempleman]

@@gunterappoldt3037 Yes. But you need to keep in mind that Hongzhi Zhengjue’s _Silent Illumination_ was the source of Zazen. So, when in the Soto-shu version goes on to say: "Therefore, there is LEAVING life & death, & there is ENTERING life & death; and both are the great way exhaustively investigated. There is ABANDONING life & death; there is DELIVERING life & death; and both are the great way exhaustively investigated. Realization is life; life is realization.’" LEAVING means to Silence ‘life and death’, while ENTERING means to Illuminate ‘life and death’ ABANDONING means to Silence ‘life and death’, while DELIVERING means to Illuminate ‘life and death’ Once Dogen reaches: “Realization is life; life is realization.” It takes a turn and he starts riffing on “Emptiness is form; form is emptiness.” And then he goes on to negate everything. In the end: life is “the manifestation of all functions,” and death is “the manifestation of all functions.” Which is _just_ Sunyata. In other words, as Shozan Jack Haubner puts it, We have to ‘die into’ the activity of life.

[@JimTempleman]

@@gunterappoldt3037 Yes. But you need to keep in mind that Hongzhi Zhengjue’s _Silent Illumination_ was the source of Zazen. So, when in the Soto-shu version goes on to say: “Therefore, there is LEAVING life & death, & there is ENTERING life & death; and both are the great way exhaustively investigated. There is ABANDONING life & death; there is DELIVERING life & death; and both are the great way exhaustively investigated. Realization is life; life is realization.” LEAVING means to Silence ‘life and death’, while ENTERING means to Illuminate ‘life and death’ ABANDONING means to Silence ‘life and death’, while DELIVERING means to Illuminate ‘life and death’

[@JimTempleman]

@@gunterappoldt3037 Yes. But you need to keep in mind that H. Zhengjue’s _Silent Illumination_ was the source of Zazen. So, when in the Soto-shu version goes on to say: “Therefore, there is LEAVING life & death, & there is ENTERING life & death; and both are the great way exhaustively investigated. There is ABANDONING life & death; there is DELIVERING life & death; and both are the great way exhaustively investigated. Realization is life; life is realization.” LEAVING means to Silence ‘life and death’, while ENTERING means to Illuminate ‘life and death’ ABANDONING means to Silence ‘life and death’, while DELIVERING means to Illuminate ‘life and death’ Once Dogen reaches: “Realization is life; life is realization.” It takes a turn and he starts riffing on “Emptiness is form; form is emptiness.” And then he goes on to negate everything. In the end: life is “the manifestation of all functions,” and death is “the manifestation of all functions.” Which is _just_ Sunyata. In other words, as Shozan Jack Haubner puts it, We have to ‘die into’ the activity of life.

[@JimTempleman]

@@gunterappoldt3037 Yes. But you need to keep in mind that H. Zhengjue’s _Silent Illumination_ was the source of Zazen. So, when in the Soto-shu version goes on to say: “Therefore, there is LEAVING life & death, & there is ENTERING life & death; and both are the great way exhaustively investigated. There is ABANDONING life & death; there is DELIVERING life & death; and both are the great way exhaustively investigated. Realization is life; life is realization.”

[@markbrad123]

Imersion meaining staying liquid letting stuff float by rather than an imaginary 'thing' being detached from a 'thing'. Stay liquid and fill the gaps you let go into -full imnersion,

[@windnomade]

the king of samadhi, isnt it?

[@gunterappoldt3037]

Me thinks, some Daoists would call this the “Big Loom“, the totality of “all floating together“ (Samsara) in endless (sic!) metamorphoses - yet, this totality can totally be transcended, the Old Buddha claimed, based on having had his famous “big insight“, so the story goes, in short. - Reminded me of Stephen Batchelor who imo did some fine explanations, though didn't here from him for some time, hope he's sound and well. -Regards

[@gunterappoldt3037]

Addition: Master Zhuang already mentioned “flow“-states, but it's also said that these should not be taken as the ultimate goal (seems that Daoists are OK with small-/middle-/long range goals) of the “true man of Dao“, Master Zhuang's ideal-type of an accomplished human being.

[@cudniantic]

haha eminem had a song called lose yourself.

[@pearlyung]

Detachment could be not taking sides, not hoping, not praying, not expecting, no binary thinking that causes anxiety.

[@Meoooweww]

When I hung out with the Hare Krishna devotees in the late 1970s...one of their key slogans was, "YOU ARE NOT THAT BODY!" They taught that we actually have spiritual body with features that look just like Krishna, but our fallen material senses only allow the deception of seeing a grossly unreal false bodily identification we mistake for self. Looking in the mirror these days and seeing a white haired, wrinkled old man now, I really like that teaching!🧞🧞🧞🧞🤣