Hardness Testing Original Winchester Barrels

[@patrickcolahan7499]

Very interesting Mark. When you think about it, these mild steel barrels have endured black powder and smokeless over many years and are still viable today. In fact, I would say that sometimes have a barrel that is slightly softer has advantages as it has to absorb some serious pressure shock. Too hard of a barrel may develop brittleness. A Rockwell tester is on my wish list for the shop. Thanks for sharing.

[@thecinnabar8442]

The issue with the mild steel barrels is that the rifling doesn't hold up to higher velocity loads with jacketed bullets. That's why the nickel steel barrels were introduced when the velocity was increased with smokeless powder and jacketed bullets were starting to become popular. Those hardness testers are definitely a handy tool to have in the shop.

[@jimfrieze525]

Like a kid in a candy store with that new toy. Good episode, very informative as usual.

[@dianecullum1281]

(Mike C.) I pulled the barrel off of an old black powder E Remington rolling block. I got in a hurry to get it done (never a good thing), took a quick look and didn't see anything in the way so I didn't dismantle the action. Of course I forgot about the cut away on the bottom of the barrel for the breach block. Fortunately for me, the barrel was such soft material (I'm thinking iron ) the breach block just pushed it out of the way! The action was totally unaffected and has been machined into a sporter action since. Love your Channel Mark, it's a great combination of history, gunsmithing, and country living.

[@thecinnabar8442]

Thanks so much, Mike!

[@paulvenn4447]

This channel is such a wealth of information for these old firearms. Thank you so much for this content.

[@thecinnabar8442]

You're very welcome, paul!

[@daveclemons1225]

Wow great video Mark! I have often wondered some of the same qustions you had. Alot of good information you put forth surrounding the hardness of some of the different Winchester barrels and dates of manufacture. I was surprised about the late 1892 barrel, I thought it would have been a much harder steel. Thank you for presenting this information, and getting it out there!

[@indiancreek1570]

Would be interesting to see colt SAA, before and after colt guaranteed for smokeless.

[@thecinnabar8442]

Great idea!!!

[@johnmollet2637]

I have heard of the Rockwell hardness testers but this is the first time that I've seen one. Very interesting and I can't wait to see what else you get around to testing. The frames and receivers idea sounds fascinating.

[@thecinnabar8442]

Thanks so much for your support, John!! I'm looking forward to those receiver tests, too. I'm doing some research on receiver steels to get prepared. I've also been asked to do some testing on black powder vs. smokeless Colt Single Action Army revolvers. Lots of possibilities!

[@billfisher6708]

Very interesting and informative. I always wondered exactly how hardness was measured, so I learned something besides just the barrel/era testing. 😊

[@cervus-venator]

That is a really neat piece of equipment. I'd be using it on ever knife I own just to see how hard they are. Thanks again for sharing and you sure looked like you were having fun with it.

[@thecinnabar8442]

I'm quite pleased to have found it. Lots of dimples showing up in steel around the shop these days.

[@clayronk8530]

Great video. More history of barrels.

[@exothermal.sprocket]

Pretty cool hardness tester. In a former job working in Engineering, I interacted with a QC department quite often which had all sorts of test equipment for products the business made and received from other companies. I participated with internal business audits and had to proof that department, records, test equipment. I bet that Rockwell machine could check cast lead bullets if you wanted to mix a batch of lead, tin, antimony, etc.

[@thecinnabar8442]

That's an interesting thought. I don't think it would accurately test something that soft. Lead is usually tested on the Brinell hardness scale rather than Rockwell. I'll check that out.

[@exothermal.sprocket]

@@thecinnabar8442 That could actually be the case. Unless there is a conversion factor, but the process on the Rockwell tester may not lend itself to the deformation rates of soft metal.

[@smithwesson7765]

Great video Mark. I always wondered about winchester proof/nickel barrels. I'm surprised that they used the mild steel on the '92s and '86's.

[@jasongross4124]

Fantastic addition to your toolbox! It's interesting to see the results you got on those barrels. I wonder if Winchester purposely used the softest steel that would be safe depending on the caliber in order to help prolong tooling life during manufacture? I'd think there would have to be a balancing point between harder steels and machine downtime, especially before carbide tools became widely available.

[@marklaterza4455]

Ya, that's a good point.

[@thecinnabar8442]

I suspect you're right.

[@michaelguerin56]

Thank you Mark. Interesting and educational. Cheers from NZ.

[@KenBlackRifleAmerica]

Another awesome episode Mark. What a great addition to the shop. Testing the older barrels is a must if you want to continue shooting your old Winchester Treasure!! Thanks much, take care!!

[@jackalexander5771]

Great to see this back at work.

[@thecinnabar8442]

Thanks Jack! I'd like to think that Pat would be pleased to see it being put to good use.

[@johnnyholland8765]

I do quite a few relines in 22's and have found Win barrels in like lo wall rifles to have hard spots in them. Stevens guns drill like butter. I had one lo wall barrel I had to resort to a carbide drill at great expense to me to get through. I normally use cobalt drills. I measure the orig. bore and grind a pilot to fit. I don't use the "liner drills" you can buy and only use "TJ's" hammer forged liners. All work is done in the lathe for accuracy. That hardness tester is a great asset. Thanks for the demo and keep us posted on the new store...

[@thecinnabar8442]

I've come against those hard spots too. Definitely not a lot of fun! Glad I didn't seem to hit any in these tests. That would really skew the results.

[@billbearback2591]

great presentation , you give the rest of us the ability to see and learn things we just dont have access to , , thanks for sharing cheers from down under

[@thecinnabar8442]

My pleasure! Glad to hear you enjoyed it.

[@oregonoutback7779]

Another highly informative class, professor. That is a pretty sweet old Wilson you got your hands on there, Mark. I got to play with one in a machine shop class I took in junior college way back in the pre-historic days. Don't remember how to run one, just remember how much fun I had testing every piece of metal I could find in the shop. Thanks for sharing with us.

[@thecinnabar8442]

I understand. There are lots of new dimples in steel around my shop today.😃

[@jacklisiecki2389]

Wow! Great information I always wanted to know. Amazing. Thanks kindly.

[@thecinnabar8442]

Glad it was helpful!

[@Melcop1886]

Wow, had no idea those old barrels were so soft, thanks for the info!

[@thecinnabar8442]

You bet!

[@oldiron3735]

Super informative video on barrel steel hardness! So many shooters will say a guy can't shoot smokless loads in a Winchester unless it says nickle steel or proof steel. Of course we know that safe loads aren't from shooting black powder exclusively, but proper pressure loads that fall inside of factory designed parameters. I shoot modern smokless powder in 38-40 through my 1885 made Whitney Kennedy rifle.

[@thecinnabar8442]

You're absolutely right!

[@ralphlangenbach7894]

Very informative. Great video. I would rate this as one of your best videos to date!! At least to me. Many Thks.

[@johngallagher2313]

Interesting results. Puts a light to discussions about barrels and what to shoot in them

[@thecinnabar8442]

Exactly! Winchester was producing mild steel barrels (what many people call black powder barrels) long after they stopped producing black powder ammunition.

[@chrischiampo7647]

Incredible Equipment Mark The Legendary Barrel Maker Who Owned Them Must Of Been Tops in His Craft 😀😇😀😮 I’m Glad You Ended Up With Them Cause You Will Treasure Them as He Did 😇😇😇

[@thecinnabar8442]

Yes. He was not only an accomplished gunsmith and barrel maker, but a talented blacksmith and wheelwright. In his spare time, he was a long-time instructor at Montana State University.

[@richardboquist1531]

Great video! Congratulations on your latest acquisition.

[@scotthagele3254]

Very interesting information, thanks!

[@thecinnabar8442]

You're very welcome, Scott!

[@robr1656]

Another great video! It's great learning. Thanks again.

[@oldhorse4171]

Your having to much fun! Glad your doing it.

[@BAustin-q6r]

Very nice!!!!!!!! Of course, you know we can not wait for you to test Uberti barrels!!!!!!👍

[@thecinnabar8442]

Hmmm!! Someone would have to send me a Uberti barrel to test.

[@BAustin-q6r]

that might can be arranged!! @@thecinnabar8442

[@titanbluestreak8709]

Interesting stuff Mark. Thanks.

[@thecinnabar8442]

You're very welcome, Mark!

[@Gamer_1745]

I would be interested in you testing revolver cylinders hardness, different manufactures & models from the 19th century. Thanks for the video.

[@errolpoxleitner9586]

Very good show.

[@markcarew6724]

Very, very interesting - thank you.

[@KM-vc2yp]

Very informative and interesting.

[@AmateurRedneckWorkshop]

That is a fun tool. I have always wondered if rifle barrels were hard or not. Thanks for the video keep on keeping on.

[@loupuleff571]

Mark, great video very interesting for sure I love those old tools ! Well you gave me the bug I went and bought another lever gun this one is a Cimarron yellow boy in 22lr to shoot the steel silhouette lever action matches here in Arizona hope it's a shooter !!

[@thecinnabar8442]

Great to hear! Best of luck in the silhouette matches!

[@Master...deBater]

Hi Mark...nice acquisition. It would be interesting to know how much color case hardening actually hardens...and to what depth.

[@BigT27295]

Great info.

[@thecinnabar8442]

Glad it was helpful!

[@jeffryrichardson9105]

Very interesting!👍🏽😀❤️🇺🇸

[@jasper903]

I also am enjoying this way too much. This and the smokeless debate scratches the itch perfectly, thanks Mark! Looks like the support on the barrel on your last measurement was a bit off, could explain the difference in hardness reading. Greetings from the Netherlands

[@thecinnabar8442]

Glad you enjoyed it, Jasper!

[@ironduke2660]

Hi Mark, Very interesting BHN on different barrels for the time periods, one might conclude the harder barrels must have been more expensive to produce. Since I have a few 1873 Winchesters from the 1800's I would conclude mild steel barrels for both. My 32-20 octagon barreled rifle has a ring mid barrel, and a very slight bulge midway, and i was thinking of sending it out to have a liner put in it? any thoughts on that? and would modern liners be made of proof steel? Thank you Chris

[@thecinnabar8442]

1873's could be ordered with nickel steel barrels, but very few were. They're very hard to find. I would expect the major liner makers all make liners from modern chromoly steel similar to Winchester proof steel.

[@marklaterza4455]

That late 1892 barrel makes sense. Why spend extra money on good steel for a pistol caliber? How about 1890 barrels or other early .22 barrels. Bet they are mild steel also.

[@thecinnabar8442]

I think you're right about the 1890 barrels. I don't believe they were even offered in nickel steel as an option. I've not seen an 1890 with a nickel steel barrel.

[@280AI]

I would be super interested in an episode on the barrels on some model 54s and model 70s both pre 64 and some of the more modern 70s. Thanks for the videos.

[@thecinnabar8442]

Unfortunately, I just don't have more modern barrels to test.

[@dogbone1358]

That was fun.

[@skylersmith9465]

You should test some receivers. I know you have that blown up 1894 you could use. I would like to see early and late production of the differing models, 73's, 86's, 92's, 94's, model 71, etc. I've heard some say late 1886's are the same as the 71's, but I'll believe it when I see it. Great video.

[@thecinnabar8442]

Thanks Skyler! I'm doing some research now on receiver steels. Unfortunately, Winchester wasn't courteous enough to mark the receivers like they did with the barrels, so I'm trying to find if there is some documentation about whether there were changes made in the receiver steel over time.

[@mikemayfield4809]

How do I contact you? Have some questions about Winchester Levers! Thank you

[@thecinnabar8442]

WWW.Cinnabargunworks.com

[@steveshoemaker6347]

THANKS MARK..... Old F-4 2 Shoe🇺🇸

[@thecinnabar8442]

You're very welcome, Steve!

[@peterconnan5631]

Very interesting, thank you. Was it raining when you shot this footage? I just love the sound of rain, really relaxes me. Happy trails from South Africa.

[@thecinnabar8442]

We're in the midst of a terribly dry winter, so that rain was very welcome. I loved it, too!

[@peterconnan5631]

@@thecinnabar8442 glad to hear it, and hope it continues as long as needed.

[@thompsonjerry3412]

I am just worried there will be a lot of little dimples in the shop.

[@thecinnabar8442]

Already are!! 😃

[@AlOudball]

Now THIS is the kind of information we are looking for!! When do we get a True Assesment of how “weak” the toggle link system really is??? THANKS!!!

[@thecinnabar8442]

Thanks, but I don't consider the toggle link system a "weak" system per se, but is much more prone to wear than the more modern actions.

[@Gunner-73]

I been wanting to order a 30 inch octagonal barrel in 38-55 or 40-82 and build a rifle with Chrome moly vanadium barrel, to hold up to the higher pressures. Do you think the receiver will hold up ? the 1886 certainly holds up to full loads of 45-70, I'm thinking the 1892 and 1886 will will hold up. What do you think?

[@thecinnabar8442]

They will hold up if they are in good mechanical condition and you don't go crazy with the loads.

[@35southkiwi16]

Interesting indeed

[@Leverguns50]

That was super interesting. I wonder about the modern Japanese made receivers and barrels. In comparison to the originals.

[@thecinnabar8442]

I've been told they're made out of higher quality steels, but I haven't had an opportunity to test any.

[@Leverguns50]

@@thecinnabar8442 yes, I’ve been told that too, but I’d like to know for sure, I would also be curious what the difference is between the Italian made 1886 and the Winchester made in Japan

[@user-vk7vq3gq3x]

I have a Winchester Model 1873 in 38wcf that was manufactured in 1904. Would I be doing this rifle a disservice if I shoot some copper jacket soft points through it?

[@thecinnabar8442]

It's the combination of jacketed bullets and high velocities that wear out the mild steel barrels like in your 1873. As long as you keep the velocities down, it won't hurt your rifling to shoot jacketed bullets and can significantly improve accuracy. Often these rifles with borderline bores will only shoot well with jacketed bullets, so it can be the only good option if you want to shoot them. Of course, the bore can be relined with a modern liner if it's only shooting you're interested in, but that significantly impacts the collector value.

[@jerrymoran8323]

Mark, Laser light in a long tunnel as usual. However when operating Wilson Hardness tester a proof certificate was attached as well as logged in a book kept by the operator or owner. Knowing how particular you are about authentic, irrefutable, repeatable, and defendable information I thought you might have had that last gage inspection information that verified the level of accuracy when last tested with a known hardness of material by a certified laboratory. I really enjoyed your demonstration, even though you admitted it was not as you will have in the future. As in perpendicular to high speed or diamond brale that penatrates the surface of metal tested. I have shared this video with old friends who always have a propensity to take a position on hardness of coatings as well as firearms parts hardness. In the future you will probably test mechanical parts and receivers for their hardness, especially area of receivers over barrel threads. With all the claims of hammer forging, it will be interesting for you to share that information. Most definitely appreciate your historical intellect, years of experience, and professional polite demeanor for sharing such a plethora of information about firearms history that seems to cover such a broad range of topics. The atmosphere surrounding Cinnabar Ranch emits the aura to share such adventurous knowledge. TRJM 🦅🙏✡️

[@thecinnabar8442]

Thanks so much for the compliments. There wasn't a proof certificate with the machine. Fortunately, it did come with several certified test blocks of known hardness, so I was able to verify its accuracy. It also came with a couple of diamond brale penetrators and the extra 50 KG weight so that it can be used to test in the Rockwell C scale when appropriate.

[@Siskiyous6]

Very interesting. It makes me wonder if 45-70 ammunition before WWII was ever loaded with jacketed bullets.

[@thecinnabar8442]

Yes. Winchester produced "Winchester High Velocity or WHV" ammunition shortly after introducing smokeless ammunition. It was a higher velocity ammunition with first a cupronickel jacket and later a copper jacket. It was marketed for use in firearms with nickel steel barrels only. Many of the Winchester factory records have a notation of "WHV" if the rifle was special ordered with a nickel steel barrel. I suspect quite a bit of WHV ammo was shot through mild steel barrels though. Considering your background, I'm sure you're well aware that shooting high velocity jacketed ammo through a mild steel barrel is very hard on rifling.

[@davidadams763]

A real interesting video. Winchester was in business to make money so use what works not the latest and greatest! They had to meet the factory specification for a cartridge. Not something we have worked out later in history. I was in the custom ammunition business and understand this well. You want to make a superior product but you cannot go broke doing it! This is just a thought but the slightly higher reading you are getting might just be the variance in testing equipment or perhaps could be some work hardening from the barrels being shot. I noticed you were testing under the chamber. I am wondering if it would be different half way down the barrel. More in line with your thought on what the hardness should be.

[@thecinnabar8442]

You're right. I think Winchester didn't see a benefit to making a more expensive barrel for those intending to shoot standard grade ammunition. Nickel steel and then Proof steel barrels could be special ordered for those who wanted to shoot higher velocity jacketed bullets in the models and calibers that came standard with a mild steel barrel. I think the late 1886 barrel tested slightly higher than the earlier mild steel barrels simply because they were using a better quality of mild barrel steel by 1941, but that's just my guess.

[@ralphbernieri3362]

cool...🤠stuff!

[@M80Ball]

In your opinion does proof steel for 44-40 seem unnecessary?

[@thecinnabar8442]

Yes, if the buyer only intended to shoot standard ammunition. For those who wanted to shoot higher velocity jacketed ammunition, it would take out the rifling of a mild steel barrel. Nickel steel barrels were developed primarily for extra wear resistance to be able to shoot that type of ammo. Winchester produced a "Winchester High Velocity or WHV" ammunition with higher velocities and jacketed bullets that was marketed for use only in nickel steel (and the later proof steel) barrels.

[@uddos]

this cannot be rockwell..70 rockwell is crazy hard on a knife and barrels are supposed have a hardness of 25 to 32 hrc (rockwell)..

[@thecinnabar8442]

Wrong. You're thinking of the Rockwell C scale used for high carbon steels. Rockwell B scale is used for mild steels. I mentioned that in the video when I said a diamond penetrator point is needed to measure Rockwell C hardness on tool steels. In order to compare the mild steel barrels which barely make it onto the C scale with the Nickel and Proof steel barrels, I had to use the B scale (HRB). The Nickel and Proof steel barrels tested in this video would convert to about 28 on the C scale (HRC)

[@uddos]

@@thecinnabar8442 okay..this makes sense..my mistake..

[@thecinnabar8442]

No problem. I should have explained that better on the video.

[@uddos]

@@thecinnabar8442 thank you for answering..greetings from germany..

[@yuripeng1708]

73 ？？ HRC ？HBS or HS？？

[@thecinnabar8442]

Hi Yuri. I stated quite clearly that I was using Rockwell B Scale (HRB) in order to more clearly compare the steels. Mild steels don't test well in HRC. They barely register on the Rockwell C Scale.

[@yuripeng1708]

Hi ， Thank you for your reply. from what I understand some of these barrels are mild steel which has not been quenched.right？@@thecinnabar8442

[@thecinnabar8442]

Correct. Mild steel barrels are not heat treated or quenched.

[@yuripeng1708]

Really appreciate your explanation，I made a 4140 steel barrel （.32ACP）and am debating whether to heat treat it or not. It seems like it should be strong enough. thank you! your explanation is very helpful to me @@thecinnabar8442

[@thecinnabar8442]

There's a good chance that your 4140 barrel is already heat treated. Most 4140 is sold in its hardened state. If you've pulled a button through it, you may want to consider tempering the barrel to relieve the stress created by the button rifling process. Cut rifled barrels don't need to be stress relieved.