Can I Shoot Smokeless Ammo in my Old Winchester?

[@wynnchester3081]

Just bought my first Winchester rifle 2 weeks ago. It's a model 1892 chambered in 38 WCF made in 1902. This vid was extremely helpful with a lot of great info. Thanks.

[@thecinnabar8442]

Have a great time with your old "92. They're great fun to shoot!

[@TUCOtheratt]

1894-1900. What an interesting period to have been a firearms aficionado watching the transitional period.

[@ironduke2660]

Mark, thank you so much for including my old friend and shooting buddy John Kort in your presentation. Historically John knew a great deal about cartridge design and pressures, especially for the hyphenated cartridges. For the past 40 yrs we had shot together in cast bullet matches in Pennsylvania and before his passing we had several conversations about my old 44-40 2nd model 1873. He had developed loading data for these old rifles, in a way that afforded much more accuracy. Making these old Winchesters much more pleasurable to shoot. Keeping the pressures low, slugging your barrels, shooting proper diameter bullets, all helped in maintaining the rifles accuracy, enjoying these old rifles and shooting them occasionally is only fun, if you hit what your aiming at! thanks for your content, enjoy all your vids!

[@thecinnabar8442]

You're very welcome! John and his work has certainly not been forgotten.

[@dwightehowell8179]

You said it first and better than I could. I don't like black powder fouling in my guns, not even the muzzle loaders but black powder is safer to use in them because of the risk of double charging. As long as you are even a bit careful that can be avoided in cartridges. No reason to get black powder fouling in my cartridges guns.

[@jayzim1293]

I am a fellow Pennsylvanian, near Pittsburgh, and a huge Winchester Lever fan. Every time I watch these videos and read the comments I learn something new!!

[@alhemshorn5207]

I always use lead bullets in original Winchesters in 44-40 because of less barrel wear. This was not a concern years ago because people did not shoot thousands of rounds of ammo through their hunting guns, unlike today. The new 92s made today can safely push a 44-40 200 gr. bullet 1800 fps for a hunting load with correct slow-burning powders.

[@bradd8081]

Another good video Mark. Thanks for the compliments on the book and thanks again for your help with barrel measurements, and a bunch of other stuff. That was a fun chapter to work on. Keep up the great work on your channel!

[@thecinnabar8442]

Thanks a bunch, Brad! I thoroughly enjoyed helping you and Rob out with the 1895 book. It's become one of my "go to" Winchester reference books.

[@Northtide]

Great video. I have been rescuing old barn find guns for about 50 years. During that time, I have rescued over 200 rifles and L.C Smith shotguns. Back in 1977 I found and rebuilt a Winchester '86 chambered in .38/70 and a '92 in .218 Bee. Lots of work but they both shot just fine with light to moderate loads. My rule has always been: "It is an accuracy exercise. Not a high velocity race to the target." Good information, thank you.

[@willjohnson6854]

I really enjoy your videos, very informative and interesting. I don’t reload or have any old firearms,but enjoy your channel. Thank you for not using filthy language and not cussing.

[@thecinnabar8442]

You're very welcome! Thanks so much for watching our channel!

[@biglemms]

I enjoy and learn from every one of your videos. Your information is really giving me the bug to dig into my old (rebuilt) 1886. Thanks for another great vid.

[@thecinnabar8442]

Enjoy shooting that old '86!

[@kbjerke]

Mark, I learned so much more about my Winchester barrels and ammunition from this video than I have in many years and countless other videos. THANK you! The very first Winchester I ever purchased (in 1971) was a model 1894 in 38-55 caliber, manufactured in 1900. Its barrel is marked "Nickle Steel." I have enjoyed shooting factory jacketed rounds in it and they are quite mild. I worked up a very mild handload using a 255 grain cast bullet and "x" grains of Hercules Unique. Had a pocket full of those when I was moose hunting in Timmins Ontario. An unsuspecting grouse stepped out, about 50 yards away, and never saw the 255 coming. Best shot that old 94 ever made! And she is no slouch, believe me. Has an extra long barrel - I think it was called the "Klondike" model. Also has a Lyman tang sight. Now, as for model 92s - I bought one from an old farmer in Quebec, back in the early 70s - found out it was a first year of production. Went with a buddy to a gun store in Vermont to see if they had any ammo for the old girl (38-40 ) and the clerk asked me, "Is it for a rifle, or a pistol?" I answered, "Rifle." He said, "Good! 'Cause if you had said *pistol,* I would have had to ask for your name, address, phone number and I didn't feel like filling out all that paperwork!" I still have that box of cartridges. Thanks so much for the education, Mark!

[@ofreen]

You covered a lot of ground in this one. The time and effort you put into the video is apparent. Thanks for doing it. All my old Winchesters are fired with cast bullets and smokeless powder because I am too lazy to deal with black powder. As you say, smokeless powder isn't a problem if you educate yourself and use some care. Thanks again for another entertaining video.

[@thecinnabar8442]

You're very welcome! Glad to hear you're shooting your old Winchesters.

[@dartoid123]

Very informational video! I’ve often had this question and I’m sure many people will find it useful! Always enjoy your content, and you’ve inspired me to start collecting winchesters on my own! Thanks Cinnabar!

[@thecinnabar8442]

That's great to hear. Enjoy your Winchester journey!

[@glenpick1]

I believe anyone who hand loads for any rifle will greatly benefit from your wisdom here - these days at the range all I hear is velocity & not chamber pressure - your episode is a great reminder that there is a limit to any guns strength - thanks again.

[@thecinnabar8442]

You're very welcome!

[@ku4ap]

Out-STANDING information!!! Absolutely loved your closing shot, rain and everything… Good work Mark.

[@tomreagan5614]

Thanks for this video, great information. I would love to hear the same discussion about the Colt SSA.

[@m118lr]

..yeah buddy, same here.

[@celsocosta4845]

Excellent video Mark, answers a lot of questions I had about early Winchesters and their compatibility with smokeless loads, Thanks and Cheers!

[@thecinnabar8442]

Thanks a bunch!

[@patrickcolahan7499]

Very informative video, thanks for sharing Mark. I never tire of seeing your piece of heaven there. Thanks for sharing.

[@thecinnabar8442]

You're very welcome, Pat!

[@49walker44]

Hey Mark. I learned a few things I didn't know like the ammunition Winchester sold could be used in the early black powder rifles and nickel steel was for the rifling. When you look at what loads the factory was developing for the 92 after smokeless came out I assumed it was for guns made with nickel steel. Thanks for a great video, I'll have to watch it a few more times and take notes.

[@thecinnabar8442]

You're very welcome, Frank! I learned quite a bit myself while researching this episode. There are a lot of misconceptions out there about this subject.

[@soylentgreen7074]

Great video sir full of priceless information. Everyone who did the work and research deserves admiration. I have always been curious about this myself.

[@thecinnabar8442]

I have to admit that I learned a lot that I didn't fully understand while researching this subject. There's a lot of misinformation out there.

[@jasyamaha]

Very good. Thank you for this in-depth discussion. I have a small collection of pre 1900 Winchester lever actions here in Australia.

[@robertdunbar5854]

I load my 86 built 1889 in 40-82 wcf with 5744 now, but have loaded it with 3031 and 4895. I hunt with it and shoot jugs of water. Still have a box of .406 Barnes originals and a bunch of .408 hard cast 260 gr boolits while only running around 1250 fps but has been deadly on hogs and whitetails under 50 yds. Absolutely love to hunt with that ol heavy gun. Thank you for all your great info. Very interesting as always.

[@thecinnabar8442]

That sounds like a great load for your old '86. I use 5744 in most of the loads I produce for old black powder cartridges.

[@robertdunbar5854]

@@thecinnabar8442 I was wanting to have someone have a look at this particular 86. Some of the screws are boogered , that drives me crazy. Would like to get them cleaned up and possibly look at re-barrel it. Could I send it to you for this ? Give me a shout when you get a minute. Thank you for your time. Rob

[@hasanibrahimovic5866]

Awesome Very complete Educative Great Every time again Thanks a lot Please keep making this high quality content

[@cariboupetepeterson3711]

Excellent discussion! Thank You.

[@mikes1097]

This was a very informative video Mark - thanks for doing the research for us.

[@thecinnabar8442]

You're very welcome!

[@oregonoutback7779]

Oh My, Mark, what an education this was. Thank you !!

[@thecinnabar8442]

You're very welcome!

[@victorshults242]

👍💪🇺🇸 Love this channel. I can imagine the old guns that went through your hands

[@dragoncarver287]

1974 I bought an 1886 Winchester 45-70. I have only shot modern ammunition in it, either factory made or reloads using my own cast bullets. Shoots like a dream.

[@Everythingblackpowder]

That was a great video! I’ve seen a lot of folks get pretty upset on this subject.

[@thecinnabar8442]

Thanks. I was a little concerned about reactions from people with strong feelings about this subject. Fortunately, it's been very well received.

[@Everythingblackpowder]

@@thecinnabar8442 glad to hear it! I have a Winchester model 1887 in 10ga that I load some light 2 7/8 smokeless rounds for and every time I do a video on it I end up getting a lecture from someone in the comment section.

[@vulpesvulpes5177]

I’m glad to see you sink your teeth into this topic! It’s a tough one and complex. More complex in fact than your reference sources indicate. So let’s talk steel. In 1890 Krupp AG of Germany developed Nickel steel. This was originally done to improve edge retention on straight razors. Germany basically became THE supplier of razors as a result. Nickel steel was erosion resistant. German steel was made largely with Swedish iron ore, Germany having almost no iron ore of its own. One mine in Sweden had high nickel content and Krupp recognized the benefits of the extra nickel. Soon nickel steel was being adopted for many reasons world wide. And nickel was added as an alloy to ores from many sources. Fast forward to WW1. One thing of note was that German field guns, made of “Krupp steel” by Krupp did not shoot out the bores as badly as the French, English, American etc barrels. Thus Krupp steel was analyzed and copied. And “gun steels” improved considerably world wide as a result. So. There are three things going on in the discussion of a gun barrel. 1. Flame and chemical erosion of the steel surface. This effect includes chemical corrosion and the total heat of combustion of the propellant. 2. Mechanical stress upon the steel in the barrel. This is a function of pressure AND the pressure curve of the propellant; pressure over time as the projectile moves down the barrel, changing the volume that the burning propellant is confined to. 3. Mechanical friction. Burning rates. Black powder is classified as a class A explosive because it burns at the same rate regardless of confinement. Smokeless powders, that is nitroglycerin, nitrocellulose, or a combination of the two burn at a variable rate depending upon confinement. Unconfined they burn slowly. As confinement increases so does the burning rate. Barrel corrosion is chemical in nature and is caused by acids from powder residue and more significantly by mercury residue from priming compound. Of the two priming corrosion is more significant and is the same for both types of propellants. Flame erosion is greater with smokeless because of the potential energy difference in the two types of powder, and the effect of accelerated burning rate of smokeless powder due to increased pressure on. Containment. Simply put the mild steels of the black powder era were corroded chemically by black powder resulting in “wear”. These same steels were flame eroded, with secondary mercuric corrosion when subjected to smokeless powder. Wear from friction of jacketed bullets was minor. Structurally these steels were adequate for either propellant. But wear resistance due to erosion was the issue. Nickel steel was adopted to defeat erosion/corrosion rather than for its increased tensile properties in gun barrels. In that 1890-1910 period steel properties were not that well understood. Nickel steel just “worked better”, but it was not clear why. This befuddlement is seen in the writings on this topic in your reference sources. Long on anecdotal observation. Short on modern applied engineering. With the end of WW1 Krupp steel was analyzed. Nickel content was critical. Most non-Krupp steels actually had too much nickel. Additionally, “impurities” were found in Krupp steel. Traces of chromium, manganese and molybdenum. These were not present in nickel steel as used by Winchester. But it soon was. And the term “nickel steel” was dropped in favor of the industrial metallurgical nomenclature we still use today to describe alloys. Gun steels improved radically after WW1 due to effectively limiting erosion, and to a lesser degree corrosion with the removal of mercury from priming compound in the late 1940’s in America. Some Soviet ammunition still uses fulminate of mercury. GI bore cleaner is thus indicated. Bursting of barrels is largely due to “stress risers” caused by erosion/corrosion, not tensil strength issues. That’s really an entire topic. In the end your quite right. The action has always been the weak link not the barrel. Unless the barrel is badly pitted, then a burst barrel may result at some pressure below which the cartridge case or action may fail. I enjoyed you presentation. My comment is in no way critical of your effort. Rather additional to it. Fox out

[@thecinnabar8442]

Thanks for sharing that wonderful information. Sounds like a subject you've researched thoroughly.

[@vulpesvulpes5177]

@@thecinnabar8442 Like you I’ve lived a fruitful life. I dreaded you asking for my reference. They exist but I could not reel off a bibliography to save my soul. I’ve worked a lot in engineering, studied metallurgy on the side, sold and repaired industrial machine tools and futzed with guns my whole life. So my comment to your video was a brain dump on a topic, but I’m no expert. I just have an opinion based upon insight. When I was younger I never did understand what the deal was with “nickel steel” or “special nickel steel” or “nitro steel”. All terms used in that 1890 to 1918 period. Then suddenly guns just have barrels. Not fancy steel designations. Just a barrel. Probably a better barrel than they had before. So I eventually figured it out. And now you know. We basically stole Krupps formula. Which was mostly the lucky choice of a particular iron oar. Later we figured out way and copied it. Just that simple. Well. Keep up the good work. Fox out

[@knallis.hjemmelading]

Great information in this video and you explain it very well so thank you so much for sharing your knowledge 🇺🇸🇳🇴 I always make me a good cup of coffee when you have a new video.

[@thecinnabar8442]

You're very welcome!

[@richardboquist1531]

Great video! Very informative!

[@joebarrett5310]

Excellent video Mark! I suspect a particular conversation thread on the WACA forum recently played a role in inspiring this very informative video. I really enjoy your content Sir, thank you for devoting the time to make it. 🙂

[@thecinnabar8442]

You're very welcome! I was actually working on this episode when that thread came up on the WACA forum. It was very good timing.

[@driton1448]

What a fantastic video. I really ejoy your relaxed presentation and effortless delivery of the subject material. So thank you Sir and in particular, thank you for all the information and knowlege you are sharing with us on these old guns. I hope folks recognize and appreciate how much work and research and first hand experience it takes in amassing all that knowlege on this elusive topic. Brilliant 👏

[@davidsonneman1121]

So im at the gun show and walk up to a display and see a nice Winchester 1886. I think to myself, hey i know what that rifle is because i watch The Cinnabar. I look up and there you are! Very nice to visit with you, hope you had a great time at the show.

[@thecinnabar8442]

It was good to meet you, David! We had a good time at the show this weekend.

[@richardbest6588]

What excellent information. THANKS 😊

[@dallaspoll]

Another super informative video, great stuff. Regards from Winchester collectors down under 👍🏻🌎

[@wccross4147]

I have previously owned a 73 in .44WCF and a 92 that had been refinished and converted to .357 magnum. The 73 had been refinished, too, so both were "shooters" not collector items per se. In both i always used plain lead bullets in what you are calling cowboy action loads ( low pressure moderate velocity) and never had any problems. Sadly both are gone now. Oh, and the 73 was made in 1886, so definitely the "softer" steel.

[@franciscoeriksen77]

Thank you very much, excellent video

[@kennethhamby9811]

I have a 1873 in 44-40. The barrel and mag tube were replaced with a model 94 set (late manufacture) shoots great no problems with smokeless factory ammo although I try to keep at cowboy loads to be safe.

[@AWareWolf9]

New subscriber here- I really have been enjoying your presentations! You own some extremely beautiful property, and that is awesome! Love your collection of boom-sticks (I use this phrase just in case the Utube censors are out to play, lol) as well! Wanting to get into antique and replica antiques, and your channel is super informative and useful. Have a good one sir

[@SixRoundsStudio]

Nicely done!

[@oldiron3735]

Absolutely fantastic video on old Winchester steel capability Mark! I've never really heard the correct and complete story on what is acceptable with smokeless powder and what is not. I shoot my old Whitney Kennedy that dates to about 1885 and is chambered in 38-40. Since the newly made smokeless 38-40 ammo is still held to a SAAMI spec of 14,000 psi, I dont worry about it.

[@kennethjackson7574]

Dang that’s low. On the high end of what I can recall from memory, the “Blue Pill” armory test cartridge for the M-1 Garand was 72,000 psi.

[@oldiron3735]

@@kennethjackson7574 Yeah the old 38-40 is a neat old cartridge. With that ultra mellow chamber pressure its a ton of fun to shoot.

[@allenmcallister3947]

I love watching your videos

[@CRiccioUSA]

Great video! Thank you for sharing this information.

[@thecinnabar8442]

You're very welcome!

[@mattheefisher2104]

A little history lesson

[@JBJHonez]

Awesome video as usual sir. Great info

[@rhapsody5876]

Awesome info , thanks! i always wondered about that issue .. i have my dads and granddads model 95 , but of course it was always smokeless ..

[@tonyperih8459]

I have a Winchester 1894 chambered in 32-40, recently just got a box of 20 factory dominion cartridge rounds smokeless. According to my serial number gun was made in 1906. Thinking it will be fine to shoot it with these factory brass rounds. Great video!

[@kingtut8381]

LUV YOUR TUTORIALS. THANX !!!!

[@hpbear101]

Thank You! Excellent information.

[@thecinnabar8442]

You're very welcome!

[@larrybassett5559]

Excellent video, great information, thank you Sir.

[@thecinnabar8442]

You're welcome. Thanks for watching!

[@willjohnson6854]

Thank you great video!

[@snappers_antique_firearms]

Great information!! i love this subject. Erring on the side of caution and using a little bit common sense goes a long long way. Keep up the great work

[@thecinnabar8442]

Thanks a bunch!

[@WayStedYou]

I do enjoy using trailboss loads for the .44 magnum 1892 and hard cast bullets since they are so much more mild to shoot. The full power loads with the crescent metal buttplate with such a light rifle are pretty stout.

[@thecinnabar8442]

Sounds like a very good combination. Is your 1892 a modern reproduction or a rebored original?

[@jeffryrichardson9105]

Great information!👍🏽😀❤️🇺🇸

[@GeneD283]

Thanks for the informative video on this topic I was actually looking forward to a video like this for my 1887 vintage model 1873. I would have liked to hear more discussion on shooting jacketed versus lead bullets. My conundrum is that my 1873 with decent though significantly corroded bore shoots jacketed bullets noticeably more accurately than the lead bullets in the 32-20 cowboy action ammunition. Although both loads are mild I suspect the jacketed bullets will be much harder on the bore

[@thecinnabar8442]

With light "Cowboy Action" type loads at low velocities, jacketed bullets won't damage a bore and is an excellent way to improve accuracy in firearms with poor bores. It's the combination of jacketed bullets coupled with higher velocities (1,500 fps +) that will cause wear to rifling in mild steel barrels.

[@cameronmccreary4758]

I can tell the difference with Nickel Steel from regular Steel by the whiteness of the material. Also, it is difficult to get just nickel steel alloys these days

[@thecinnabar8442]

I would imagine it is. Chromoly (proof) steel pretty much replaced nickel steel for barrel manufacturing in the 1930's.

[@williamlindner3984]

The old timers who started shooting in the 1920s, 30s ,wondered why, anyone would want to shoot black powder in them. They loaded smokeless powder with cast bullets and they liked not having to clean the rifle after every session. They knew their rifles, and the pressures, they were capable of handling .

[@williamlindner3984]

@Bryan Austin By the time the 1940s, 50s rolled around, the corrosive and mercuric (ruins the brass) primer issue was largely gone . Unique power was used for moderate loads and it shot pretty clean ..

[@williamlindner3984]

@Bryan Austin The guys who started shooting in the 20s, were in a few cases still shooting in the 80s .I met some first hand, and heard much more about them second hand. Those guys were frugal coming through the depression. Some of them loaded shells with "Bullseye" ,which is about the most economical powder to use in pistol caliber guns. However it is very easy to blow up a gun with a double charged case . You have to be very careful with it. That may be where a lot of the mythology about smokeless powder blowing up guns came from.

[@williamlindner3984]

@Bryan Austin The British had the same problem when they switched to Cordite....It ate out the barrels very quickly...

[@MegaRiffraff]

Clyde Williamson has some good smokeless Loads for old Winchester rifles in his book , lever legacy.

[@bobnoon253]

I believe that those 44wcf , high velocity rou ds were close to the 44magnum loads. Also some of the M92'shave be converted to 357mag &44mag back in the 60's.

[@henrysara7716]

Here is the place to ask about Winchester linage. Thank you Mark.

[@johnt.chambers4204]

I have a model 94 that I was told was made in 97. It was Dad's old rifle and I would be afraid to guess how many deer he shot with it. There is no nickle steel markings anywhere on it. I have shot factory smokeless loads in it for at least 30 years. There is no telling how many years Dad shot factory smokeless rounds through it. As far as I can tell, it has never hurt it a bit.

[@thecinnabar8442]

Sounds like a wonderful family heirloom. What caliber is your dad's old "94?

[@johnt.chambers4204]

@@thecinnabar8442 32-40

[@billpotter7162]

Love your videos even though my only lever gun is a Henry Golden Boy 😁

[@Siskiyous6]

I once owned a 38-40 Model 1892 made in 1894, the rifle would not feed, and I always felt it might have been because of the High Speed Smokeless 38-40 offerings.

[@atasirudy]

A very good friend of mine says that he doesnt know what the craze about smokeless is, "its just a passing fad." as he put it😂😂😂

[@mikesauer7775]

My dad had old black powder 30-30 with flat band behind front sights. We ran lower pressure smokeless powders in it just fine

[@thecinnabar8442]

Actually, all 30-30's produced by Winchester were designed for smokeless powder and it's perfectly safe to shoot factory loads of smokeless 30-30 ammunition. In fact, the flat band 1894's were produced in the late 1940's and are made of "Proof" steel which is a chromoly steel and the same material used in the modern rifle barrels of today.

[@MegaRiffraff]

All 30wcf that i have seen are smokeless

[@tonydeaton1967]

I think, at least with the 1873 Winchester, the barrel wasn't the issue, it was the toggle-link action. I've personally been hand loading several frontier cartridges with smokeless for thirty years, and have never had a problem. There are several propellants out there today that make it very safe to load smokeless.

[@thecinnabar8442]

I wholeheartedly agree and mentioned that very fact in this episode during the discussion of the weaker action models vs models with stronger actions.

[@tonydeaton1967]

@@thecinnabar8442 I love your channel. Learned a lot watching you.

[@StevenMMan]

One of the few absolutes in firearms is... ( never trust someone else's reloads)

[@thecinnabar8442]

Very true!

[@hdsporty79]

I recently acquired a model 1873 made in 1886 from someone who is the son of the sound editor of the show "Gun Smoke" he gave it to me, it is missing parts of the bolt and a broken rear stock I would hate to make it worse in an attempt to restore it to working condition the bore is very good considering.

[@thecinnabar8442]

Sounds like an interesting old Winchester. Is there any chance it was used in the show? My grandfather and James Arness were the very best of friends before he moved to Hollywood and became a big star.

[@hdsporty79]

@@thecinnabar8442 the original owners are dead and the son who was also a sound editor for many big name movies including Marvel movies is not sure. But that's what I was thinking because of how it looks abused. I would like to fix it.

[@m118lr]

Great video Mark, thanks. A LOT of info in this one. I have a 1901-produced 1873 rifle (as noted in the Winchester Repeating Arms book detailing serial #s). The bore is in what I’d call great shape with rifling intact and virtually zero corrosion. The mag tube had been replaced hurting the value..but THAT doesn’t bother me whatsoever, as my plan was also firing it from time to time, nothing strenuous. It’s marked 38 W.C.F. also, with no other markings other than ‘Winchester Repeating Arms’, etc. MY understanding it’s chambered for the 38-40 round. HOW CAN I BE SURE..other than having a gunsmith critique it? Thanks and awesome channel!

[@thecinnabar8442]

It's unlikely that it's been altered, but the best way to be positive that it hasn't been rechambered is to do a chamber cast. I have a video on the subject on this channel. If you're not confident in doing one, take it to a gunsmith.

[@m118lr]

@@thecinnabar8442 ..thank you for the reply Mark, it’s MUCH appreciated. And yes, after watching numerous vids on your hannel here, I’ve come to the conclusion, with THIS rifle..it’s definately a .38-40 chamber.

[@the1bulldurham]

My muzzle loader is a real chore to clean. Would like to hear about black powder fouling, corroding, and cleaning of these old lever actions. Thanks.

[@thecinnabar8442]

Fortunately, the fouling in a cartridge gun is primarily isolated in the bore when the cartridge seals to the chamber. Clean up isn't much more difficult than cleaning smokeless in a levergun.

[@the1bulldurham]

@@thecinnabar8442 Makes sense. Thanks.

[@jucker8]

So the main difference between normal barrels and nickel steeled ones is that you don't risk wearing off the rifling by shooting jacketed bullets threw the nickel steels ? Right ?

[@brianlong2079]

Good video, very useful information. Any bullet casting and reloading videos on the way??God bless.

[@thecinnabar8442]

Sadly, YT's community guidelines no longer allow us to post new videos showing the manufacture of ammunition or firearms and I'm really trying to stay off their radar.

[@oldsouthforge831]

Have you tried Mr Austin’s load data in any of your 1873’s? I am using 24.9 grains of reloader 7 under a 200 gn lead flat point bullet. It’s supposed to be between 11000 to 12000 psi.

[@oldsouthforge831]

It’s giving right at 1325 to 1350 Fps

[@kevinroberson1985]

Have you ever used longhorn smokeless powder for your cartridges in your lever action cartridges. I have loaded 45 long cartridges with longhorn smokeless powder like my loading manual said and it worked great. I was just wondering if it's the right thing for your cartridges for your lever action rifle like 44-40 or 38-40 and so forth. I have even loaded 223 cal. With longhorn smokeless powder for subsonic rounds and it's seems to work great where I'm not needing a full power Rd.

[@danielcurtis1434]

What about the strength difference between the Henry action abd the Browning action? I’ve never heard anyone doubt that a browning action could take smokeless, however I’ve definitely heard that of the toggle link action. I thought this video would be divided into two portions???

[@thecinnabar8442]

I specifically addressed the weaker action of the toggle link Winchester models in the video. It must have been during the part where I bored you to sleep. 😂😂😂

[@normsti000]

Interesting , I have an 1894 chambered for 32-40 dated for 1903 (Cody museum) and it is a nickel steel. So I thought they were all nickel steel. Learn something new everyday.

[@johngraesser4911]

The question of powder has been talked up a lot. As far as bullets go, that is not so clear. For my only bp gun a pietta new model army, if you add a taylor and company cartridge cylinder, they are adament about not using copper jacketed bullets to reload the cowboy loads they recommend using. Only lead, and i guess no hard cast lead. I have never seen any talk of using copper washed or powder coated bullets in bp barrels.

[@dalesearcy5734]

Do you know how much lower powered a Cowboy Load is when compared to a normal factory loading in say 30-30, 45-70 or 45 Long Colt? Would Cowboy loads work for hunting game like Deer?

[@thecinnabar8442]

There's no standard for "Cowboy Action" loads, so they vary by manufacturer. I would choose something more powerful for hunting.

[@billclifton8400]

Great information Mark. Still whether safe or not shooting smokeless in a first model 1873 is still sacrilege 😂 So a question, one of my model 94 32-40 from 1902 is a nickel steel barrel, would that have been a special order to get that?

[@thecinnabar8442]

Yes

[@mrparlanejxtra]

You can shoot any ammo you wish so long as you don't harm the gun

[@thecinnabar8442]

Very true. Unfortunately, the "trial and error" method of choosing ammunition can be disastrous. 🙄

[@ricktaylor5744]

@The Cinnabar. Mark I have a 1892 made in 1923. That was modified to shoot 357 mag. It was a 25-20. The ejector broke, and I want to get it fixed. The question is can I get parts and if so is It a drop in affair that I can do myself with hand tools, or do I need to have a gunsmith do the job

[@thecinnabar8442]

You shouldn't have trouble finding the parts through Numrich, Homestead or other parts houses. It's a very simple process if the pin that holds the extractor cooperates. You'll need a small punch (1/16") and small hammer. If you have any problems, let me know and I'll walk you through it.

[@ricktaylor5744]

@@thecinnabar8442 thank you mark I appreciate your help. I know you are busy. Will the Winchester 1892 made in Japan for the 357 work? Or would you recommend I get one for the American made 25-20 ? I know that the head size is a bit bigger on the 357 but I don't know if it is enough to make a difference. Numrich list both. It would be nice to be able to use the one that is for the 357! I don't know if they made some slight changes that would make them not interchangeable.

[@chrischiampo7647]

Thanks Mark What About Winchester Proof Steel Like My Winchester Model 12’s Say on The Barrels They Came After The Nickel Steel Barrels 😀😊

[@thecinnabar8442]

I mentioned that in the video at the point I bored you into falling asleep. 😃 The proof steels were introduced in 1932 and are a chromoly steel very similar to the 4100 series steels that are used in today's carbon steel barrels.

[@chrischiampo7647]

@@thecinnabar8442 Must of Missed It When I Went To Make a Jug of Gatorade 😩

[@dogbone1358]

Mark, speaking of black powder and the 1873, have you done or can you do a video on how you clean the 1873 after shooting black powder? I’m very leery of shooting bp out of my 1873 for fear of corroding the action. Thank you.

[@thecinnabar8442]

I have a video on cleaning black powder fouling from a Sharps rifle, but the process is very similar. Cleaning black powder from cartridge guns isn't much more difficult than cleaning up after shooting smokeless. Fortunately, the cartridge typically seals to the chamber and keeps nearly all the black powder residue contained in the bore.

[@Kavics78]

Thank You very much! Its happen to be I just bought a M1895 in .405 Winchester from 1915 ( nickel steel barrel ). As I understand I cant use just any kind of powder to reload the cartridges. Anyone have a suggestion where can I start to find out the loads?

[@cogburn1565]

How is the fishing at the Cinnabar ?

[@thecinnabar8442]

I once caught a 14-pound rainbow out of pond in the background. Unfortunately, the fish didn't survive the recent drought. We'll be planting a new batch of fingerlings soon.

[@theduke1833]

So your saying very few 92’s we’re marked with “nickel steel” or “nickel steel especially for smokeless powder” I have several marked with especially for nickel steel

[@thecinnabar8442]

1892's with nickel steel barrels were a special order item. As I mentioned, in a survey of more 18,100 original model 1892's, 69 were marked "nickel steel". I own 19 model 1892's and none of them are nickel steel.

[@guavavodka]

Did you compute 4/10ths of 1% in your head that fast?

[@dspencer1969]

Now for the reverse to this question, can you shoot black powder in a 1874 Sharps repop chambered in 45/70Govt?

[@thecinnabar8442]

Absolutely! Any firearms designed for smokeless powder will easily handle black powder ammunition. It's also a bit nostalgic to see the smoke cloud when you shoot a rifle designed decades before smokeless powder was available. Cleanup is a little more involved with black powder, but the black powder residue is usually contained in the bore in cartridge guns. I have a video on cleaning black powder from an original Sharps.

[@dspencer1969]

@@thecinnabar8442 Thank you sir

[@robertloban3809]

I have a 1980,s Big Bore in 375 Winchester. My question is, can I shoot 38-55 in it or use 38-55 brass for reloading? Have heard you can. Hard to get 375 and 38-55 is easier due to Cowboy action.

[@thecinnabar8442]

I'm sorry, but I couldn't answer that without some research. I've not had the opportunity to work with the modern 375 Winchester cartridge.

[@Jeff-sl8xz]

You can use the 38-55 brass for reloading the 375 Winchester just have to trim it down to size the 38-55 was just a little bit longer

[@johnkovalchick6218]

If your shooting black powder loads in your rifle do you have to disassemble it to really clean it whats the right way

[@thecinnabar8442]

It depends on the rifle. In most cartridge rifles, the black powder residue is isolated to the bore. I produced a video on this channel about cleaning up black powder in a Sharps.

[@Tammy-un3ql]

👍👍👍👍

[@markcarew6724]

Thank you, very interesting. I have a flat side model 95 Winchester in 38-72 WCF, serial # 9xx. I shoot 225 grain cast lead bullets with gas checks, .381" with light loads of IMR 4064. Go ahead and give me hell.

[@thecinnabar8442]

You certainly won't catch hell from me. I shoot both black powder and smokeless loads in my 38-72 flatsides, including SN 64. I just think it's fantastic that you shoot the old girl!

[@markcarew6724]

@@thecinnabar8442 This was a wonderful video, tremendously informative. I really enjoy shooting the old model 95, I don't own anything I can't shoot - at least shoot occasionally. I also enjoyed the journey of searching for brass, slugging the barrel, getting a proper mold and developing a period accurate velocity load. I went with a 225 grain bullet because I would need to have a custom mold made to get a 270 grain projectile of the proper diameter. Perhaps a mold is available now without having a mold custom made.

[@pedroh.appaloosa2105]

What is the difference between the 1866 winchester and the winchester 73 in quality?

[@thecinnabar8442]

If you're asking about originals, the major differences are the much softer material used to make the 1866 receivers and the superior ammunition of the 1873. Otherwise, they are very similar in construction.

[@charles17508]

Looks like your out by spray ?

[@thecinnabar8442]

Paisley is the closest town to our ranch.

[@charles17508]

@@thecinnabar8442 I live over buy bend but my family just moved out of spray and relocated to Kentucky becouse of 114 . I feel the same and I'm about to sell and move with my wife and 5 kids that were all born at st Charles I whent to sportsman's the other day and you can only buy a gun if you have a ccw well I have always carried constitutionally so than I whent to see if I could get my license real quick just to learn that there also so backed up that there taking no more at this time whent on computer and it says there wait time to get in a class is almost a year out so in oregon if you don't have your carry license than you can't buy a gun becouse of how backed up the backround checks are I wish that it whent back to normal ware backround checks took a half hour and you left with the gun you bought that day when will this madness end I feel that my right to bear arms has been taken away . This is absolutely bs to do to oregon citizens that are supposed to be protected bye the oregon constitution not to mention our regular constitution what a shitty time to be Oregonians almost everyone has left and transplants have moved in changing oregon making it unrecognizable to me .shame on the people that decided that people have no right to bearing armes .they have no right to try and impose a fee in order to buy a gun so you have to have money to protect yourself the gun will be cheaper than the fees in order to buy the gun I really hope that oregon will eventually do the right thing and conform to the 2nd amendment it aint hard it's very clear to me take away the atf there a Rouge branch and shall not infringe what don't they get about this and when will this go back to a state that respects our state also who is paying for this unlawful bill to go through all these courts that has to be expensive. Anyway I really respects you as a great man for getting this out there its just horrible and it is absolutely against the rights of the people what kind of idiots try and vote away there rights ?

[@charles17508]

@@thecinnabar8442 ah you live down bye beatty I have a few Morman friends down there that are some of the best people .

[@evankibbe590]

😊😊😊👍👍