Hardtail vs Dirt Jump MTB at Rays Indoor Mountain Bike Park

Which bike should you bring to an Indoor Mountain Bike Park, a Hardtail Trail bike, or a Dirt Jumper? We went to Rays MTB Park to see what the differences between a Hard Tail and a Dirt Jump MTB and how they behave. Bringing the GT Avalanche and the GT La Bomba to the best Indoor Mountain Bike Park gave us the opportunity to test these bikes in Skatepark, Bikepark, and Pumptrack environments.
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[@itsnotme7570]

The title should just be: I know I can do it on my dirt jumper, now can I do it on my hardtail

[@danielhughes4667]

lol ya

[@dorjderemnamsraijav5182]

haha

[@SkillsWithPhil]

Don't take this video too seriously, it's supposed to be fun. These were just the two bikes I had on hand and I thought it would make a fun comparison. I set each challenge on the bike I was most comfortable on and kept it consistent throughout the video. Had I wanted to do a scientific comparison I would have randomized it. That being said, had I tried a 26 inch hardtail trail bike the results would have been similar. Trail bikes 99% of the time have longer chainstays than dirt jumpers to make them feel more stable when flying down steep hills, this will vary by the make and model a bit. Also hardtails will be designed around a longer fork, generally 120-150mm which affects many aspects such as wheelbase, headangle, stack and reach. Another things I didn't talk about was bottom drop, and seat tube length. All these little things play into the overall feel of a bike and it's why a Dirt Jumper and a Hardtail feel completely different.

[@DinnerForkTongue]

So the same would apply if you'd tried a freaky 29" dirt jumper too?

[@GriffinBikePark]

Great comparison. Next time take the Mini Rocker! 🤘🎸🦐🚲

[@Hugo_Helgas]

Skills With Phil you look like a girl whos selling scout cookies

[@SkillsWithPhil]

@@Hugo_Helgas what kind of girl scouts are you buying cookies from?!

[@coolircarey1665]

@Phil are you left handed? When you write?

[@hardtailparty]

Hardtails rule. Especially hardtails with short chainstays. Thanks for another great video Phil.

[@SkillsWithPhil]

I think you're a little biased :P

[@hardtailparty]

@@SkillsWithPhil just a little. :) I consider DJs hardtails too. I love DJs, and it would be my bike of choice at a place like rays.

[@hpkiunzy]

Yupp, Fun and playful. My chromag has 16 inch chainstay

[@cursedcliff7562]

I love my full sus bike but the technical stuff kills me

[@rufushayday6990]

Best is a 26” hard tail with a short travel fork

[@codyandvictoria]

Dang this indoor park is crazy! I've honestly never heard of an indoor MTB park. Nice video Phil!

[@jakecremean9533]

there is rays in cleveland, and pittsburgh has the wheel mill, its about 3 hours drive from rays to the wheel mill. both are amazing parks. i live near rays but ive traveled to the wheel mill and both are amazing. it's cheap to get to cleveland or pittsburgh and an airbnb cost like $40/night in each place. It's worth a $150 plane ticket to come ride these spots

[@troyconner9049]

0:51 no way that’s my friend and I at the foam pit!

[@kalbetc6664]

Nice

[@kenkieboi122]

Troy Conner how could’ve that been you if it was me

[@tristinwilcox9518]

@@kenkieboi122 lol

[@jessereddick183]

Prove it!

[@baybaygottemmad9464]

Lol

[@CobHes]

Love the GT sponsor. Use to race a 1994 GT Mach 1 mini back when I was little. Lost the bike in a lake house fire 😭

[@SkillsWithPhil]

I had a mach 1 at one point too, sucks to loose it they way you did though :(

[@Doofish873]

I have a Mach one definitely not as old thougj

[@paulsergile3487]

I love that you are sponsored by GT! I have always had Big Box bikes, and this year I got my GT Pantera/Ricochet (Still sort of a BB Bike, but much more upgrade-able!) I love it, and can already tell a difference in using a better bike and that my skill is improving. I would love to get even better, but there aren't very many places like this close enough to me to visit on a regular basis, so I just work on parking lot skills! I love seeing you ride, and I love your videos! Keep putting up the good content!

[@larrybanks2403]

Paul Sergile similar story hear rode Walmart bikes till I got my gt agressor pro

[@paulsergile3487]

@@larrybanks2403 It's amazing the difference a good, or at least decent, bike makes compared to the boat anchors they sell at Walmart and call them bikes! LOL!

[@RSanders]

Hey Paul, I ride a ricochet to, granted I eventually upgraded it to full XT, 130mm rockshox recon, etc.. nothing but frame and feont wheel is stock. I'm 250 and logged over 1300 miles so far in the past year... frame is rock solid.

[@raheemgahelable]

Thank you so much, Phil Kmetz, for the nice mention, I'm just honored to help a bro rider who inspires riders around the world! Keep up the great work 🤘🤘🤘

[@justinellis2936]

Thanks for putting out more videos man. I dig what you do

[@miket9396]

Glad to have you back Phil ... Don't watch many KZbinrs, not sure exactly what it is, but always enjoyed your content. Keep it up!

[@profesam8457]

Phil, I really appreciate your videos. You, Seth, and Alex all present in a different style. I enjoy all of y’all because you are all different. Your pseudo-instructional videos are great and have helped me to improve. Keep up the good work! And!thanks!,,

[@olegpetelevitch4443]

Top stuff ! From Australia love your info and how you show and explain . Thank you !

[@smithfamily710]

Wow that place looks awesome. Now l have to see if there are any indoor mtg parks here in Australia. Thanks for the video mate.

[@abstraddic0442]

Lots of Fun Phil Great video !!!

[@sohaibyounus]

This video was so much fun Thanks for your hard wrk and dedication! Also I am glad I bought a hardtail to ride on the trails and hit the pump track.

[@mesk412]

Ray's is the best! Literally impossible to not have a good time riding there, regardless of skill and or experience

[@SkillsWithPhil]

I agree, there's a little bit of everything for everybody!

[@f0rm1ess8]

I used to not be able to hit jumps, now I’m starting to hit the pro jump line

[@pepsimies3022]

If Phil recommends GT Avalanche Expert for an indoor bike park, I don't think I have to think that Avalanche was a bad buy

[@SkrotumPhillups94]

Love the music man!!!! Gets me stoked!!!

[@FlourEater]

recently subed to you, loving the content ! I ride trek roscoe 8 2019 and loving it !

[@ClintGriffin1]

Great video Phil! I was not surprised at the results because you can do anything on any bike including Wal-Mart specials and Mini Rockers!😆👍

[@SkillsWithPhil]

Haha thanks for the vote of a approval! I was pleasantly surprised with how well it rode at Ray's. It was more fun than I expected to be honest!

[@DUNEATV]

Your riding skills are awesome...so are your videos!

[@danlakermtb]

Great vid dude! That bike park looks epic too! 🤟

[@GOTCHAPARK]

Hey man,Thanks for making this video !

[@jreimer3462]

I can barely manual my Avalanche, it feels near impossible on that bike. Seeing a pro struggle to do it after smashing through first try on another bike was oddly inspiring. Thanks for showing it can be done on that bike!

[@lammruss]

Made my day better! Thank you Phil! I was having a bad day on my way to school watched this and boom what?? I was having a bad day?

[@SkillsWithPhil]

Oh man, I'm sorry to hear you're having a bad day, those are never fun. I'm glad I could help in someway, I hope the rest of your day goes better!

[@danguy4019]

Sweet video Phil it’s amazing to see you posting again keep it up your a true legend!!

[@SkillsWithPhil]

Thanks Dan, I appreciate the kind words.

[@danguy4019]

Skills With Phil No problem Phil means a lot that you’ve seen my comment!!

[@mpgt]

I think size is really important. I have (and had) many bikes. There is nothing like a good dirtjump to ride park like this. I love riding these feature with any bike. My full suspension is a small SC 5010 (130 mm travel, 27.5" wheel), sized for 5 foot 4 maximum, which is way to small for me, but I much prefer smaller bike with really short reach and low standover that make it easy to hang around

[@SkillsWithPhil]

Size definitely makes a difference, I like riding medium size frames for that similar reason.

[@TheZGBALLER]

I’ve been debating on buying the Avalanche. You have definitely sold me. Nice video.

[@SportFlow]

So entertaining and so much talent! Keep up the good work!

[@SkillsWithPhil]

Thanks for the kind words :)

[@lilnorthshoreshredder4624]

Awesome video! Really good comparison and some surprising findings.

[@SkillsWithPhil]

The jump results definitely surprised me as well as Hailey.

[@RGCastro7]

Super fun video, Phil! I'm stoked to see you and Hailey riding and having so much fun. Have an awesome day!

[@SkillsWithPhil]

Thanks you, we certainly had a lot of fun this weekend.

[@camerabehindhandlebars]

Where I live, we don't have an indoor mountainbike park, so I just got used to riding in cold weather and sometimes even snow. However when you ride in winter, it's closer to XC riding than to trail riding, becouse all the trails are closed. Awesome video as always!

[@sethnicholls7861]

Enjoyed this alot!

[@Dawsong120]

Thanks for riding for me while I'm sick. I just got one-hand one-footers on my bike, but I can't have fun with it yet!

[@Boone1981]

Great video. Thanks for showing Ray's indoor park. Come back in the summer and try the trails in Medina (30mins south of Ray's), he helped design and build. #RideforRay

[@SkillsWithPhil]

Ray is a good Dude, I wish him the best. There are few people like him, and he's had a lasting impact on the sport.

[@jakecremean9533]

yo man, i'm dating a girl who lives in medina right now, so i assume ill be there a lot this summer. any tips on where i should ride? its close enough that id be down to help build trails as well, if thats an option

[@Boone1981]

@@jakecremean9533 look up Huffman/Reagan this is the medina trail system that Ray had been working on. It has a good variety of options from drops, jumps, wall rides and a skinny that snakes down a hill. Also Austin Badger is a reclaimed golf course in Medina with fast flowing trails with jumps and they left the cart paths to ride when it's wet. As far as trail work check out the CAMBA Facebook page for trail days. Or you can ask the owner of Spin Bike shop in medina, Ray... he would know more.

[@MS-ug3gm]

there is something between gt geometry and your mustache... Love it ;D

[@rwogmtb-ridingwitholdguy]

Just cool to see you at Rays having fun, nice

[@harrisonbrooks748]

Love how u have the mic connected to your hair😂

[@NortheastOhioHikesandBikes]

Good comparison! Ray's is a blast pretty much no matter what bike you're on! That said, I've rode multiple styles of bikes at Ray's and here's how I'd rate them (from pretty good to best): 1. Dirt Jumper (easiest to pump and maneuver, can handle the technical MTB section well enough) 2. 26 or 27.5 inch Mountain bike (less maneuverability than dirt jumper or BMX, but can handle everything in the park) 3. BMX bike (similar to Dirt Jumper, but the technical MTB section is not much fun on a BMX) 4. 29er (real good for the technical MTB section, but maneuverability is worse than 27.5) 5. 26+/27.5+/29er+ (It's still fun, but just too much bike for the terrain compared to everything above) Also, opting for street tires over knobby tires makes a world of difference. Street tires grip the plywood surface far better and reduce rolling resistance. If for whatever reason you can't afford or don't want (!!?) another bike, swapping out those knobbys is perhaps the best "Ray's upgrade" you can make. Shorter handlebars could help, too. The Green Flow Trail has some tight spots that are no fun to ride through with big, wide bars. P. S., It was cool meeting you! Thanks again for making my son's day! He's absolutely thrilled that our family's bike fleet makes an appearance at 1:11. Now he's got something else to brag about to all his biking friends, lol

[@kevinvermeer9011]

What kind of bikes are in the rental fleet? I'm debating on whether it makes more sense to bring my 27.5" old-style-geometry (seat doesn't even go down as far as Phil's 29er) XC hardtail, or rent one of yours...

[@NortheastOhioHikesandBikes]

@@kevinvermeer9011 To be clear, they're not my bikes to rent (I don't own or work at Ray's), but they've got Kink BMX bikes and Trek Dirt Jumpers & 26 inch mountain bikes in their fleet. Check out their options: raysmtb.com/about/rental-bikes/ I've rented their Trek DJ. It's a real nice bike.

[@SkillsWithPhil]

These are the kind of comments I like seeing, constructive, meaningful and useful to other viewers. Thanks for taking the time to share your experience. I can't pick out who you are based off your comment alone but I had a blast meeting people this weekend. There's a healthy riding community in that area with some rad people!

[@NortheastOhioHikesandBikes]

No problem, Phil! Hope the comment assists someone. I should also add that it's probably worth paying the $18 to rent a bike if you're in doubt about what to ride. The staff is usually cool with you testing out multiple bikes, so if the dirt jumper doesn't feel right, you can give the mountain bike a go, etc. As for jogging your memory, maybe the picture I took with you & the little guy will help: instagram.com/p/BvX5rzYlgYV

[@RonClouds]

Nice comparison, great content. Thumbs up!

[@SkillsWithPhil]

Thanks mah dude!

[@lordhostile]

great video, makes me miss my old GT 24" Cruiser (Mountain Bikes didnt exists like they do now 86-92) on the then new jump tracks. be safe out there! :D

[@judecochran446]

You should definitely compare all disciplines of mountain bikes vs the entry level hard tail. That would make for a good mini series for sure!

[@raheemgahelable]

DJ bike all day at Ray's! Yes, the XC green trail has some climbing, but still very doable on a DJ! Great video, I really missed riding with you that day!

[@criticalhitz481]

What a beautiful park. I just got a hardtail and I'm loving it!

[@timotheyszczepanski6644]

This is obscenely satisfying

[@punisher9oneone]

It was super cool seeing you and meeting you there Saturday

[@SkillsWithPhil]

Likewise Craig, I had a blast this weekend :)

[@onsight2822]

Great video , well filmed 👍

[@SkillsWithPhil]

Thanks for the kind words Col! :)

[@chain1984]

Very interesting points on this video

[@BikesTrailsandGreenways]

Neat comparison video Phil, I still want a dirt jumper!

[@SkillsWithPhil]

Thanks BTG, and I hear you on that!

[@JeahnLaffitteAdventures]

Yo, Phil! This video was sweet and I feel like it was one of your best in the way of presentation! Speech was really well delivered and pacing was great! Might not have been the most exciting video you’ve made but I really think it’s the perfect step for you as you grow in film making. Keep it up!

[@SkillsWithPhil]

We're constantly improving. Wish the whole speaking thing came as easy as riding sometimes :P

[@rupedog]

I love ur style, but I did struggle to hear the speech clearly over the music...seemed like the music/sound balance was to much on the music...but otherwise great...always love ur stuff...

[@SkillsWithPhil]

@@rupedog It was done on purpose. I had to drown out the music they were playing at Rays which could lead to a copyright strike if I included it in the video. I did a little processing to lower the background noise, but I still had to mask it with music to air on the side of caution.

[@TheNik604]

Great video, very informative . I have Scott Voltage LTD , and I use it for literally everything - from DJ to Enduro/ Freeride ( with two tipes of forks and two tipes of tires) . Tnx

[@reneh.6551]

Good common question 😏 and great test to answer it... 😁🚲👍

[@anthonyyoung4978]

This park is in my backyard. I want to start putting out some riding videos here. Not to mention, Ohio trails are closed very often due to the unpredictable weather. What a sick place! Love your vids man!

[@GriffinBikePark]

It is always fun when Phil starts to get "dirt jumpy"!😁👌🚵‍♂️ and I love the mic clipped to the hair!🎙🐰

[@ClintGriffin1]

I was hoping he would move the mic up to his mustache! 🧔🎤

[@scottgerstenberg9551]

I missed that! Haha

[@SkillsWithPhil]

@@ClintGriffin1 Oooh I like that!

[@SkillsWithPhil]

Haha, well last time I clipped it to my shirt I could hear my hair rustling on the mic, so clipping to my hair was the logical solution! 😂

[@anthonyo9683]

I never knew Dave Grohl is good at mountain biking. Great video Phil! Thank you!

[@mattfritz1984]

This is my favorite place to go! I live in Oberlin

[@calebmoore3456]

Great video as usual👍🏻 but i was thinking next time you go you should say something before hand and maybe do a subscriber meet up or something. I was literally just there about a month ago, great place and i have a ton of fun every time. Love the channel and keep up the good work.😀😀

[@SkillsWithPhil]

It's more fun to show up unexpected. :)

[@calebmoore3456]

Yeah i bet it would be kinda annoying having a horde of people following you around

[@cachismith]

Omg the avalanche I have the same bike and I am still learning the manual very nice video

[@abernathy7517]

I was just there Wednesday, shame we missed you!

[@BC-fx1ns]

i love the mic clipped to his hair!

[@SkillsWithPhil]

Gotta put it to good use! :P

[@blackbark5260]

I love that place!!!! By far the most fun biking ive done there

[@thomasblewden9699]

Finally an upload!!!

[@jeremyhuffine2091]

Love that park. So fun.

[@itzvrixx3018]

The best : dirt jump mtb Pd: I not speak english :)

[@gmow99]

Why not the 27.5? Seems waaaay more comparable

[@SkillsWithPhil]

Because I don't have the 27.5 version, I have a 29 version.

[@gmow99]

@@SkillsWithPhil fair enough lol. It would just make a lot more sense but thanks for continuing to make great content

[@pepsimies3022]

27.5 version is only the smallest body size iirc

[@CoderShare]

Why not a 26"?

[@mathislabergelefebvre5473]

CoderShare 26” is basically a dirt jumper

[@PedalingDave]

Cool comparison. I take from it that you can accomplish quite a bit on a familiar bike, within reason.

[@Shaanthemaan]

My first bike was a gt xc, i put some slim tyres on it, it made a decent hybrid. Many a shenanigans were had on it

[@SkillsWithPhil]

Sounds like the ultimate commuter!

[@VlogEpicness]

That park is way better than anything local here in Portland

[@nosreuter]

Sweet! Exactly the video I wanted, and that from my favorite guy on the good ol tube. Since some weeks before the skate park vid (awesome timing that one to) I've been looking into getting a DJ or potentially a BMX or maybe something of a hybrid...? Need brakes for one, too many stoppies and poorly executed manuals still needs doing!

[@SkillsWithPhil]

Brakes have saved my ass too many times. I still like to dabble with brakeless riding from time to time though!

[@Christopher_R]

Apparently i need to become a patreon supporter, because i live right by Ray’s and would have totally shown up to meet you.

[@MPHshoots]

I was really hoping to see a video at Rays! It’s so rad.

[@SkillsWithPhil]

I made a Rays video 5(?) years ago, and had been there once since, but I hadn't been there in long time. kzbin.info/www/bejne/q16qdHRubtxmb80

[@MPHshoots]

Skills With Phil well I’m still glad to see an updated video. I love your vids so much because they are pretty exploring, and go at a calming pace.

[@jacobjames1171]

What a cool place. I like how the columns are paited like trees.

[@seanwalsh3052]

I'd rather get a DJ because i've already got a decent All Mountain bike(Trek Remedy), but also because I think that the simplicity of it makes it a lot cheaper to replace parts and harder to break, also I think having a nimbler bike would make my skills on the trail better as well.

[@stephenlord599]

Sean Walsh yeah ... I also learned to bail on my DJ ish bike much better because I was less worried about breaking it. This then translated to my trail bike which fares much better smashing into the ground without my weight on it as well and my body appreciates not being tangled with hard metal at the same time.

[@ItsyaboyDT23]

Right on brother

[@END3RL3]

Would love to see a video on how to buy a bike for beginners… suspension, brakes, grips, tires, gear to wear, gear to bring along … thanks for the videos!

[@abcdefghhijklmnop9592]

That full suspension gt frame 😍

[@SkillsWithPhil]

We'll be building it up soon!

[@chain1984]

Loveyour mustache 😊

[@dorkydork9989]

I saw you but I’d dint know it was you I’m so amazed

[@SkillsWithPhil]

Haha that's too funny!

[@HUSHHUSH-]

👊🤘ohh soo sick my dude

[@SkillsWithPhil]

Muchas Gracias!

[@HUSHHUSH-]

Skills With Phil de nada muchacho 🤘🥴

[@salbausone]

It’s crazy for me to think that one of my favorite youtubers goes to the same bike park as me

[@sambays5838]

I LOVE GT!!! HAVE ALWAYS OWNED ONE!

[@thecannabiskidfortier6219]

Now I have ridden a 29er and a dj before, and from my experience I found that the dj and 29er can do most anything. Have you tried using a 29er street tire to ride the park with? I personally won't ride a dual suspension bike cause of my weight and that's how I came to my conclusion that most hardtail bikes can do similar things, it just depends on how you set things up on your bike that works for you. Excellent content 👍 keep it up!!!✌️

[@lesterfalcon1350]

Hats err helmets off to you and guys like Berm Peak. I'm still riding a 21 year old Schwinn Moab 3, which only has original frame, seat post and handlebars. I've been looking at making a change to a 29er. Channels like GMBN seems to consider 2000 dollar hardtails cheap, and Vital don't seem to consider hardtails at all. But guys like you bring that all back down to earth and make things more welcoming. I'm now in Vietnam, and crazy for a country that is 50 percent mountain, mountain biking isn't a thing here. the 1000-1200 dollar range bikes deem really limited, with only Giant really here, Trek a little, and maybe Scott. But coincidentally my eyes are also on the GT Avalanche Expert, and maybe a flight to dealers in Philippines when covid allows. Can't seem to justify a full sus when I have to do some serious road miles just to get off the road.

[@lesterfalcon1350]

Man this country would be ideal for setting up bike pars along the mountain range. I think GT could make a killing here setting up about 5 centers between HCMC to Ha Noi. Providing entry level bikes for hire and selling more range. Vietnamese spend some serious money on road bikes.

[@frizzll.]

Love this place

[@willbros1499]

Man...your videos are still cream of the crop! Loved this one. Excellent from start to finish. Loved the tests you ran. One question though... If you slapped some slicks on the 29'er, or something as close as you can get. do you think the lowered rolling resistance, and increased grip would help you even more with the 29'er in this environment? After seeing how much you slipped on the wooden berms, you had to have been holding back, worrying about washing out, and I'm sure you had some drag as well. I'm betting your speed would have been just as good, and you would have been able to maintain momentum. I know you wouldn't be able to manual and throw it around as well, but speed wise...I would be curious to see what the 29'er would do on some some semi slicks. Loved how you used Haley's (sp?) runs to add to the scientific value. :-)

[@ethankomosa9538]

I’ve been here it’s amazing

[@dominickovi8981]

i live right by cle this is so cool you where there

[@3ravines275]

I was just there with my"19 Roscoe 8......dropper post and gears made the ride!!!

[@SkillsWithPhil]

That's awesome!

[@christianpeters6579]

Yeah, I dirt jump with a 27.5 hardtail and it's not a problem. I'd say for versatility to go with a hardtail because they provide the gears necessary for climbs, and the pop on the read end to send it long

[@anselmoflores7976]

I have the same bike (the GT avalanche) and I’m very interested in the changes you’ve made to the drive train. Can you list the components that you’ve installed on it?

[@bryanflores1041]

i just want to see if gt avalanche can handle jumps.. kuddos to this 😁

[@lucidbarrier]

He straight up murdered those humps @2:28

[@Iheartdgd]

Man I wanna go to Ray’s so bad!! Gonna definitely have to plan a trip to Vermont one of these days...

[@johndef5075]

Its in Cleveland.

[@michaelhughes3302]

Heck, If you're only bike is a unicycle, a scooter or a skateboard, bring that!

[@TrailFeatures]

Ooooh! That avalanche!

[@SkillsWithPhil]

It's a fun bike!

[@shantaharsa6395]

Great video. Ray's is actually nearly 200,000 sq ft (180,000).

[@thomasmitchell3239]

If you are still around you should check out Mohican State park! It's some amazing singletrack

[@walkersilha]

Practice!, the second bike tested is going to have an advantage.

[@Pshpshpshpshpshpshpsh]

Do you have anymore videos on the GT AVALANCHE? I just love watching videos of my bike haha

[@Ethelred77]

Ah, very usefull, this. I guess i can hang on to my rockhopper for a bit. Pump up the tires, lower the seat, and maybe lockout the fork, and off i go, Hop hop, hop.

[@SkillsWithPhil]

Definitely!