Harlow's Pit of Despair: Cruel, Shocking Psychological Research

[@IntotheShadows]

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[@DILFDylF]

I'm a nurse, and within the last week I legitimately heard a CNA saying that her mom recommended she let her baby cry until it stopped and that there was a study that said it worked. I couldn't help but jump in and say something like "I think I'm familiar with those types of studies, and the babies do eventually stop crying if you ignore them, but it's because they learn not to trust you, and they grow up broken." Then just DAYS later I see this video. The algorithm gods are always watching 👁️👁️

[@kayvon5926]

I remember babysitting for a family doing the “let them cry it out” sleep training, I would have to listen to the baby cry, it broke my heart

[@13thMaiden]

I was told while babysitting my baby cousin to let her cry it out, but if she doesn't settle after 5 minutes, go check on her. That kid HATES to do anything that stops her from playing, so sleep training was hell for my cousins as she'd scream in absolute rage 3 minutes straight before she settled...

[@TheKrispyfort]

Babies learn that the carer is unreliable, and doesn't care for them. Babies learn that they're unimportant. Yeah, we grow up psychologically deformed as a result of the emotional injuries. Things like borderline personality disorders. It's not self soothing. It's defeat, grief, and heartbreak. It's surrendering to no-one is coming to save me

[@sirrealism7300]

​@@TheKrispyfort welcome to the human experience loser, if you wanted blissful ignorance you can find it in willing stupidity.

[@danielson2531]

I think advice to parents is situational. Leaving a baby to cry endlessly before a certain age is unproductive, just as failing to ever sleep train them can be exceedingly inconvenient. Thankfully in most cases it feels like there's an acceptable range, so parents who aren't too extreme either way are unlikely to permanently damage their child, especially as long as they're striving to be loving.

[@motorphina]

I'm kind of curious about the link between the idea that you should ignore your babies and the crazy amount of serial killers in the 70s and 80s....

[@crazydinosaur8945]

hmmm. it might just be correlation. but it make you think

[@suzimonkey345]

I think that the Vietnam war had an influence on the serial killers of that era. I’m not saying that simply participating in the war made one more likely to be a violent killer… Many tell stories of relatives telling brutal, titillating to some, stories & showing private photographs of brutalised victims. Violent pornography was also made available to the masses at this time (a lot of Asian, violent bondage porn) We will see, in the very near future, how the normalisation of porn & the ease of access to violent rape pornography affects young men! Psychologists already report a large customer base of young men who can’t obtain an erection for ‘normal sex’ due to watching excessive pornography. A number of young women & girls report boyfriends trying to strangle them during sex on their first sexual encounter (as if it was normal) 😮

[@suzimonkey345]

It’s a fascinating subject!

[@freedomunltd]

@@suzimonkey345It’s horrific

[@lewisjones2782]

@@suzimonkey345also most of those killers dads would of served in ww2

[@pebblesandwoowoo]

I remember learning about his research when I was doing Psychology. The torture he inflicted on those monkeys was disgusting. The videos of them being tortured by a loud circus monkey toy clapping cymbals. Their cries. And that was apparently the tip of what he did to torture them. When you look upon his research and how he viewed it, he really was a special type of sick. But the nature vs nurture question was answered. But being a mother now. It seems so obvious on all levels...

[@GraveyardRomance]

Makes you wonder if women had been allowed in that space (gon a venture a guess that thy weren't) they would've stepped in and said "you could just survey real people instead of torturing animals."

[@burnyizland]

@@GraveyardRomanceSurveying people about what they think doesn't give you truthful results. Humans are very bad at being objective, especially in matters that hit close to home. Not to mention, how would they have any alternative to compare it to? I don't like that he did this any more than anyone else, I'm just saying your theory isn't grounded in reality.

[@snowangelnc]

​@@burnyizland It's grounded in reality when the answers to the questions were that easy and obvious. When we're talking about subtle differences or abstract issues, sure, people can't be expected to always give truthful results. But when the question is whether or not this kind of torture is harmful? That would be on the level of not feeding volunteers for a couple of days and then being skeptical of the accuracy of their answers when they report that they feel hungry.

[@byproductofcheese]

If you hate that then don't look into the Russian experiments

[@tuongpham7609]

⁠@@snowangelnc Except the answer wasn’t obvious to the people in those eras. Again, it’s sick and unfortunate what happen but the results were massive at the time. Some answers in life cannot be answered ethically. At least, not ethical, truthful, and scientifically. We can call these people monsters but they have advanced the field of psychology.

[@thrillhouse4151]

I remember reading about that in psychology class. Sometimes it feels like the field of study is still in its infancy, like the bleeding with leeches and humors phase.

[@nattie911]

Leeches are still used 😂

[@Benson_aka_devils_advocate_88]

​@@nattie911 Only because we know they have very specific benefits in very specific circumstances. We no longer think an excess of blood is a bad thing as we did as recently as 200 years ago.

[@enlightendbel]

Most fields of science can create controls and precisely parameterized study subjects as their subjects tend to be inanimate. Psychology can't. The subject of the video tried to achieve this, but since you're destroying minds, of animals or people, to achieve this, it's defacto unethical. And even if you throw out the ethics consideration, even the simplest mind is complex on a level you can't achieve baselines similar to when you're studying inanimate subjects. So psychology has to find its way with wildly unclear study subjects and imperfect controls.

[@SarahChaires]

​@enlightendbel well said! Psychology IS in its infancy. Anybody in the field would be the first to tell you that. I think we've all spent significant time grappling with the ethics of these studies and the benefits we've gained from them.

[@enlightendbel]

@@SarahChaires I'm autistic and have PTSD from life experiences caused by my autism. I know someone who is diagnosed with DiD, Bipolar Type 2 and BPD. A lot of psychological disorders come with company, sometimes one caused by another, sometimes one added due to simple genetics or accidental events. And some of the core ones can be caused by genetics, environment or parenting, or a mix of all 3. Like how my PTSD is caused by circumstances caused by my autism, while I know several people who have PTSD that is entirely unrelated to their disorders, like a bipolar friend of mine who had their bipolar under control, but got PTSD from simply being Ukrainian and war breaking out around them. Getting "pure" research samples is impossible for psychology. We all have bagage and even when you take people or animals that seem "normal" or take them very young and try to create a baseline, their genetics (or even the variance in food you provide them) can create big variables.

[@lucynyu333]

This reminds of the 'abandoned children' study from Romania. More than 30 years ago there were too many orphans who grew up in neglect and isolation. Dictator Nicolae Ceausescu banned abortions and people were too poor to raise kids. Government didn't support the orphanages that were overcrowded.

[@cantsay2205]

My ex grew up in a Russian orphanage and then was in foster care after his (American) adoptive parents gave him up. It's not an excuse for what he did to me of course, but I do understand the effects that trauma had on him.

[@amyshew1151]

The MAGA republicans want to recreate those conditions here in the US . No birth control, no abortions , and absolutely no mention of the funds needed to care for all those unwanted babies that will be turned over to the state to raise . Absolutely sickening .

[@Bigbadredg14nt]

As a father, the idea of not holding or playing with my daughter is heartbreaking. I cant imagine having a child and not having that kind of relationship. I’m not even done with the video and i’m breaking. What he did to those monkeys, and what happened to real life children due to “prevailing wisdom” is . . . I dont know a word for other than traumatizing.

[@Lunch2391]

I never got how they concluded that to much love is bad for a child. It goes against every parents instinct to ignore your child. Why would we have this natural instinct to sothe and confort a baby if it was a bad thing?

[@redhotmoon1656]

Their thought was that it would cause the child to be spoiled. I recall my mother commenting many times about how parents shouldn't give their kids too much attention, unless they wanted spoiled brats. 🙄

[@g0dofimmortality]

The problem is that they took what started as a good idea WAY too far

[@TheKrispyfort]

Further, if you're not nurtured as a child you're likely to become neglectful as a parent

[@Zerpersande]

You may have had problems getting ‘to’ much of other things.

[@boneappletee3395]

@@TheKrispyfortthe problem is when a parent is operating in extremes, you must find balance

[@SoundShinobiYuki]

The sad result of no-motherly-love-in-infancy can be seen in the videos of Romanian orphanages after the communist regime fell in 1989. The rooms full of babies/children all rocking themselves, banging against things, doing all kinds of stereotypy etc. with their arms/legs/heads because the nurses were too underfunded and understaffed to give them any attention beyond feeding (...and not even enough of that) and any time other adults would come in, some kids would absolutely grab on to them and not let go until forced to. A lot of the kids even after being adopted to real homes had lifelong psychiatric disorders and ptsd from their first years being spent that way.

[@TheKrispyfort]

My abusive mother raised me in a way that included a lot of social isolation, and yeah it has had adverse affects. Loneliness is an emotional starvation and the social nutritional deficiencies are difficult to endure. People raised in stable social conditions do tend to react with hostility towards me, probably an Uncanny Valley Affect because they can just tell something's off about me. Work place and familial ostracism and alienation is a very affective form of abuse. No wonder people don't want to turn against the group nor go against people in positions of authority, influence, and power. Whistle blowers should be considered heroes.

[@pplzprincess]

sending you love and healing

[@susannec659]

I too send love and healing. All we need is one little friend. No one needs to be part of the " popular" crowd. They're not very interesting anyway. If you haven't yet , you'll find people that can identify

[@PaperScissors1331]

Also raised in social isolation. Little to no contact with other children between the ages of 3 & 11 and it's undoubtedly had an impact on me. I'll likely struggle with this feeling of otherness and isolation for the rest of my life.

[@katiewomack2941]

I'm 64. I saw this footage as a child. I still remember it with horror and sadness.

[@CashelOConnolly]

Do you take medication? Your tablets will have been tested on animals. Would you stop taking medication if it had been tested on these monkeys?

[@Howl-Runner]

​@@CashelOConnollyYOU DONT SAY!!! WOW WHAT AN AMAZING REVELATION!!! Now you want too say something? Or just murmer about subjects that are known.

[@CashelOConnolly]

@@Howl-Runner oh shut up,you sarcastic 🐷

[@CashelOConnolly]

@@Howl-Runner 🙄sarcasm isn’t funny

[@cwill2127]

@@CashelOConnollyneither is being completely incompetent but here you are

[@KathrynCrawfordKat]

I went to public school from ages 6 to 11 then was pulled out and placed in self education "homeshooling" and socially isolated and severely neglected for the rest of my childhood. I don't think I could hande delving into details on the impact this had on me or the effects it continues to have on me to this day and I'm terrified will for the entirety of my life. Tnis video had me sobbing for those poor monkeys and just wishing those innocent beings hadn't been put through so much agony all because this depraved, sadistic monstet felt a little curous. Edit to add even though this one was a hard watch for me, I'm glad it was created, respect and appreciation as always Simon and Team Whistler for diving into the dark so others don't have to and the role you play in ensuring what you find there is brought to light

[@thehangmansdaughter1120]

My god, I'm so sorry. You deserved better than that.

[@sunnyquinn3888]

This happened to me too. I'm turning 40 in May and I'm having a painful midlife crisis because I'm still so socioemotionally stunted compared to my peers and not sure if I'll ever be able to catch up.

[@HumanityisEmbarrassing]

Went into psych at 12, got out at 20. Ex serious self harmer. Now a solitary 36 year old alcoholic class A drug addict. Hope you're doing better. You are worthy of a good life, and I hope you find peace.

[@brandyjean7015]

Harlow: "I really don't like animals. I despise cats, I hate dogs." Sounds like his own childhood couldn't have been very nurturing. IMO

[@kommissarsenfklo576]

Thats exactly the problem

[@MrMuz99]

Animals/pets aren't for everyone, so you can't say a lack of a nurturing environment causes people to dislike animals/pets. This guy, Clearly has issues with his upbringing and is twisted, to most people. I don't deny that's a factor, it just isn't the cause.

[@kaworunagisa4009]

@@MrMuz99 It's a good indicator though. And there's a big difference between fearing/distrusting animals, especially when someone had a traumatic experience as a child, and cold dislike without even a hint of empathy.

[@kaworunagisa4009]

Yup. My maternal grandma didn't have his power but had pretty much the same views on animals, and she was... off, for lack of a better word, her entire life. And as one might imagine, she grew up in super hard conditions and was emotionally neglected on top of that.

[@MrMuz99]

@kaworunagisa4009 - As with all things there's a wide spectrum. I've met some not very nice people ( for lack of a better term ) and they absolutely love their animals and dote on them. Conversely, there are genuinely good/nice people who just don't care about animals, and are potentially just scared of them. Maybe due to distrust. An old associate of mines family had dogs throughout his life growing up, never had an issue, then around age 20, a completely separate dog ( Yorkshire Terrier ) bit the guy in the face and permanently caused damage to his nose. He hasn't been able to breathe properly through his nose since. Do with that what you will. 😅

[@japserrwik4656]

As a parent to a todler and soon a newborn this is so sad to listen to. I just can't imagine the pain and sadness these poor animals went through, and the children that won't find any love with their parents/caretakers. Love is absolutely critical, and I'll be damn sure to cuddle my son extra when I put him to bed tonight😢

[@jasonbernard9012]

He did one thing right; essentially kickstarted the era where rules have been employed relatively across the board in experimentation. This also is a major case of how despite genius and potential, individuals must be checked before they’re appointed to positions of power - he proved that the depression within himself bred depression incarnate across the board in his experimentation methodology

[@UmatsuObossa]

It's absolutely insane that anyone ever believed that children didn't need maternal love. Like you'd think just from your OWN experiences as a child, regardless of whether you received any or not, you'd know it was important.

[@MrTetrisz]

Whole generations have gotten by where the father's role is to provide for the children, not necessarily love and or care for them. Their kids grow up and think it's the norm to do this. They even think its a good thing because it's believed it raises their kids to be tougher and so the cycle continues.

[@UmatsuObossa]

@@MrTetrisz You can "get by" being beaten and abused every day too, hardly means it's something one ought to ever even begin to consider normal or beneficial.

[@MrTetrisz]

@UmatsuObossa it shouldn't be the norm, i agree, but it's unfortunately really common in societies today.

[@sisterhoney61]

I have a degree in anthropology and we watched videos of Harlow's experiments on the Rhesus monkey babies. It absolutely broke my heart. I sat there with tears pouring down my face, seeing in black and white how heartless and cruel he and the "scientists" were to those helpless, terrified baby monkeys. So, needless to say, Simon, I'm going to sit this one out. I don't feel like sobbing tonight.

[@CindyandRicoTheCoonhoundCross]

Taking care of yourself is way more important than a view (IMO).

[@lemaygaming6952]

@@blake.phillips*they’re, and you sound like a psychopath.

[@Djoarhet001]

@@blake.phillips Roflmao, it's called having empathy for other living beings bruh. It's a completely valid opinion bro. Chillax dude. (also they're, not their)

[@TM-yn4iu]

​@blake.phillips your comment is probably one of the most identified in profiling...

[@garethanddylanjohn3213]

​@@blake.phillips have u even heard of the cruelty involved

[@fangthedergon1863]

I knew about some of this but I had no idea how far the 'experiment' went, those poor dears

[@not-a-raccoon]

This explains so much about the older generations 😳

[@jasonbernard9012]

As time has gone on, we’ve learned so much more about what emotion means truly; we always thought emotions were temporary, when in actuality those are feelings. This man showed how we’ve always needed to distinguish between feelings and emotion; injury and trauma.

[@claudiamcfie1265]

Yeah but nah. Most mothers did what felt natural, and did bond with their children, against the advice. They just were made to feel bad for doing so.

[@AjitAdonisManilal]

Lol "saying one thing then meaning the mother" that's a good one.

[@whynotmiach407]

sooo underrated. the world needs to know

[@khironkinney1667]

That one initially had gone over my head it was some smooth delivery

[@EdrickBluebeard]

Careful with that joke- it's an antique.

[@AjitAdonisManilal]

@@EdrickBluebeard Yo mummy jokes always are, Egyptians been telling them since the ancient times.

[@EdrickBluebeard]

@user-vv8ve4px5j yeah, but that particular line has only been a Freudian Pun since The Council of Tu Madre circa 198 AD.

[@amb163]

Never trust anyone who says they don't like animals.

[@arie653]

I watched the clip of the baby monkey clutching onto the comfort mother until he was starving, so he went to the feeding mother only to go back to the comfort mother in my child psychology class. It was horrifying. A few of us ended up crying Edit : I didn’t know that it went beyond the cloth/wire mothers! What they did was absolute torture! I truly can’t believe it

[@robertwalker-smith2739]

I remember mentioning this to my son's pediatric therapist and was surprised to find that she'd never heard of it.

[@SingingInferno]

More than anything, it's just distressing that this is what it took to achieve that progress in understanding the bond between mother and child. Surely, there must have been a better way... but we'll never know.

[@MsJubjubbird]

A lot of the amazing things we know today about the human mind and body were discovered by unethical means. Not saying it's right but we probably wouldn't be as far along now had their been more regulation then. These days you'd have to do a retrospective cohort study on kids raised in foster homes or something.

[@GraveyardRomance]

Almost as if they could've surveyed real people but that would have required them to survey women & I'm SURE that would've been an immediate no-go.

[@laner.845]

@@MsJubjubbird exactly. A lot of medical knowledge came from WWII, and to not use it on ethical grounds is a disservice to those who were lost for that knowledge. I'll never say it was justified, but I'll not turn my back on the unwilling sacrifices those humans made that allowed medicine to leap forward in the following decades to make a better world for all. Let that be their legacy, not the fact that their lives had a brutal and tragic end. Still, never forget that it was truly brutal and tragic.

[@MsJubjubbird]

@@GraveyardRomance surveys are not as reliable as clinical trials though

[@urgay1992]

​​@@laner.845The nazi experiments on humans are actually not valuable research. The most cited are the Dachau hypothermia experiments, claimed by some to provide invaluable knowledge that saves lives. But in fact, they were just brutal torture conducted under the guise of medical research. There was very little adherence to a scientific method and many of the conclusions are not supported by the facts presented. Along with inconsistencies and hints of data fabrication, there is just no scientific value to the experiments. Even disregarding the ethics, those experiments could only be considered scientific fraud. They cannot be used to save lives.

[@jamiecobb5066]

I’m sure the animals felt the same way about Harlow as he did about them.

[@snowangelnc]

The problem is that, unlike Harlow, the animals weren't able to act on it.

[@samwilson188]

@@snowangelncthat and they actually had a good reason to

[@blarfroer8066]

I'm not religious but people like Harlow make me hope that hell is real.

[@danielblinkhorn]

Keep up the awesome work..love it!

[@yts70r135]

I remember this from school and it was outrageous and shocking. Thanks to explaining it very well.

[@arie653]

This brings into question incubators. I don’t know if things have changed, but when I was born, I was put in an incubator for a whole month. My parents could only hold me for 5 minutes a day. The hospital wanted to keep me longer but my mom fought to bring me home. I know that the incubator is the reason I’m alive, but still, the impact it could have on infants is major

[@relight6931]

As much as I know, a baby could be comfortable, fed, but without human contact, it might die in a few days.

[@rosiecarter6631]

When I had my daughter at 32 weeks she was in the NICU and incubator for 4 weeks. As parents, my husband and I were encouraged by the nurses to hold her regularly as a part of "kangaroo care". We were also encouraged to feed her, change her, and sing/talk/read to her as much as possible. That is standard procedure where I'm at in our NICUs for premature babies who can physically handle it. My daughter is 2 now and she is super sociable and adjusts shockingly well to changes. So, I think the procedures now for neonatal care for NICU babies has made great strides to be better. As long as parents are able and willing. The kangaroo care stuff is fabulous for both parent and child, especially with coping with a scary birth. It sure helped me and my daughter a lot with our emotional and physical recovery.

[@Nylak-Otter]

As an animal behaviorist, these experiments were extremely unethical but also extremely important. Having these observations recorded in clinical trials has been infinitely helpful for both human and animal behavior since.

[@13thdoggy]

Hey my one college credit is in animal behavior! I'm torn between appalled at his cruelty, yet reverent at the importance of his findings.

[@buknekkit3084]

Bet you justify the atrocities of the NSDAP and Japanese human experiments from 1934 -1945, and probably a big fan of Mengele's work too. Little to no empathy for other life.

[@Legitpenguins99]

We've known the effects of isolation for for almost a decade yet we torture thousands every day with solitary confinement in the USA. Sometimes for years on end. I know first hand how devastating isolation is for your mental health because I was basically scared to leave my house for 4-5 years and I feel like my brain has been permanently changed and I had access to stimulation. I can't imagine being locked in a 5x8 cell with nothing

[@amyshew1151]

I spent 1 year in isolation in the hospital as I contracted 3 dangerous antibiotic resistant infections following a car crash : My seatbelt nearly disected my body .I had severe PTSD when engaging with people again. It took 2-3 years to readjust . I was highly drugged , completely immobile and doctors had to dress in space suits when tending to me . I think it may be worse in a prison isolation when you’re mobile and not sedated .

[@pioneercynthia1]

Depressed people, myself included, often self-isolate. Everyone in the world of psychology knows isolation is bad for depressed people, but, like Harlow, they sit back and watch. We are expected to reach out ourselves, even though research, like Harlow's, shows that's unlikely. What's more, if you ask professionals why they don't intervene, they all, across the board, say they can't (unless, y'know, the patient comes in on a gurney, half dead). Psychiatric patients are the new rhesus monkeys. And yet the US still has very inadequate mental health care. But then these same professionals scratch their heads whenever there's a mass shooting, a murder-suicide, a bombing, the list goes on. Even though mentally ill people are far more likely to be victims than perpetrators of crime, there is absolutely no doubt that the person behind the gun had some savage upbringing, or perhaps no upbringing at all.

[@SoundShinobiYuki]

It's this rock and a hard place of "patient autonomy is so important that we can't make anyone get treated no matter what state they're in", and the old days of "We WILL make you well again, you're going to the asylum for advanced care for a couple years and say goodbye to the outside world!". I see it way too much with my own neurospicy kind, people complain left right and center about how they get no mental health care for their depression or other psychiatric disorder and how they're suffering so horribly (but also can't summarize what they actually need help with so nobody CAN start anything), annnnnd then also screaming a few days later on facebook about how they won't take meds, or go to therapy, or call a hotline, or leave the house to go to a support group, and being made to GO TO THE FREAKING HOSPITAL FOR TREATMENT YOU SERIOUSLY NEEDED was "totally unneccesary and I TOTALLY didn't need it and I'm TOTALLY fine", except oh look, they're actually giving you psychiatric care there because you clearly needed to be strongarmed to get treated when you won't leave your room for over a week, eat, brush your hair or bathe. Then they'll let everyone back out as soon as they're getting better, assume you'll adhere to a treatment regimen when the current trend is to scream "DON'T YOU DARE MAKE ME GET VISITED BY SOCIAL WORKERS TO TAKE MY MEDICINE AND CHECK IN ON ME! YOU'RE INFANTILIZING ME, I CAN TOTALLY MANAGE EVERYTHING ALONE!", annnnnd it's time to repeat the cycle of refuse-to-get-help-until-so-extreme-you're-sectioned-and-then-go-right-back-to-refusing-treatment-again-when-released all the hell over again. With some physically-assaulted nurses and EMTs thrown in for good measure.

[@TitularHeroine]

​@@SoundShinobiYukiSome random reader will no doubt think your comment is melodramatic or exaggerated. Yet this observation is razor-keen accurate.

[@SoundShinobiYuki]

@@TitularHeroine I’ve seen it myself way too many times. You can’t help people with long term (or lifelong) conditions that don’t even want to cooperate or take initiative with any kind of treatment plan and family/friends can rarely do anything to help in serious cases that doesn’t just lead to more problems (Parents or partner make them get treated, person runs away or resists treatment or gets violent or won’t take their medication after release etc. Or, people will hide that there’s anything wrong with a loved one at all and do nothing but enable and completely fail them at being able to live independently or get treatment, and you don’t need to think hard at what results). And speaking from experience, it is absolutely NOT my job or qualification to be forced into providing psych care to someone who could destroy the house or push me out a window or kick me out of my own home! My own Grandma was a psych hospital nurse. And from before the days of medication to help- there were cases where she wouldn’t even go into a patient’s room without two other nurses and some strong orderlies and she still got hurt on the job, and now we just expect solo people with no training (sometimes not even with healthcare training, sometimes literal children who don’t even know what’s happening) to be psych nurses or therapists because “community care” is now supposed to be the gold standard over “hospital/designated treatment facility”. Except they also closed the hospitals down and refused to give any kind of effective funding to the other one which needs ten times the staff of a hospital to be half as effective, when there’s not even half enough for the shoddy patchwork thrown up already. 🙄

[@jkhawkinsjk]

Could medical traumatic stress part of why they refuse care? If I perceived that someone kidnapped and drugged me, I wouldn’t be trusting them for advice or wanting them coming to my house. The people not willing to get help might indicate a rational fear of the medical system. I can agree it’s a difficult problem to solve.

[@halfatheory]

when people say "we used to do it this way and you came out just fine"

[@calendarpage]

I worked in human subjects for a number of years, auditing clinical trials. We had a sister unit that audited animal research. While care is taken in universities to assure that animals are not mistreated, for me, the entire nature of animal studies is mistreatment. On a scientific level, I understand why the studies are necessary, but I could never work in that other unit. Unlike humans, the animals never get to say 'no,' to say 'stop,' to refuse participation once it has begun. And often, the study requires they be killed at some point. I don't consider myself to be overly emotional or weak, but no, I couldn't do that work. To the extent the animals are helped at all by having proper oversight of their treatment, I'm glad other people are willing to do it. As an older person, raised by educated parents, I can tell you their parental attitude was that it's not good for parents to get too close to their children. It was like there was an invisible line between parents and children. When my son was young, my mother was surprised at how physically and emotionally close were were (I was a hippie mom). "That's not how I raised you."

[@relight6931]

Best we can hope is to be a little better as parents then our parents were capeable even when they had best intentions.

[@dmfhsm]

You’d think it’s just plain common sense. Or do we now think that because of studies like these? It’s hard to believe that someone would be surprised at the outcome of some of these experiments.

[@tuongpham7609]

Common sense evolves with time. And at the time, it wasn’t common sense. Our common sense now was built off that research.

[@bradlevantis913]

This guy was so messed up he could have easily been featured on the Casual Criminalist if he didn’t have monkeys to torture A family member works for children’s aid. In their 20 plus year career they have seen 2 cases where an infant has been isolated on purpose by parents. It’s unbelievably horrible what these children have gone through and the lifelong challenges they will probably face.

[@martmcclary8477]

I need a hug.

[@samuelstafford5303]

I’ve only ever taken an introductory psychology course in college. But like Simon says, I know of Harlow and his dungeon. The only thing I know is that I will always remember him, and what he has done. And to always care for my children or any child I adopt in the future

[@mikedunn6415]

I see myself in those monkees. Mine was being forced to wait alone in the waiting room of the hospital while my dad was dying of cancer. My mom, and sister could see him, but i was too young. Every day for many hours i was alone. I wish i had the relationships that i see others have. I cannot seem to cross that bridge. Failed marriage, failed as a father the list goes on. The only hope i have is that my children will talk to me someday.

[@EternalAmmonite]

A good first step towards making your desire for healing a reality would be therapy.

[@kendraspenard8792]

I’m totally stunned how broken some people are that they can do things like this in the name of ‘science’. So very sad 😞 Makes you wonder if their own mothers didn’t comfort Them as children: informing their progression to heartless ‘scientists’.

[@staceyn2541]

I had an anthropology class back in 2017, small class, about 4 mothers over 35. Our poor instructor started to show videos from these experiments. We were so upset he had to call off the lesson. The pain of those poor babied was just too heartbreaking for us. Maternal instincts can be very strong. I haven't watched your video about these experiments and I don't think I can. It was a very profound shared experience that obviously has stuck with me. That poor professor. He knew the experiments were upsetting, but we were the first class he had that practically begged him to turn it off.

[@hollypixie4285]

Oh my God. It just occurred to me that a lot of these behaviors exhibited by these isolated monkeys are very very similar to behavior seen in severely autistic people. Maybe....just maybe.... what we've come to think of as the result of just having autism is actually a result of emotional trauma secondary to autism? My mother is autistic, and I have a few autistic friends, and I can tell you that every single one of them is just dying for connection, for friendship, for love. They struggle with social interaction, yes, because they all find it hard to understand, but EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM wants deeply connected relationships. What if severely autistic people are "so difficult" because they are horribly traumatized by living their lives alone, feeling as though no one cares for them, because their brains communicate differently? Can you imagine being a baby, who cannot help themselves, who cannot communicate other than by crying, and your brain refuses to register the reception of love and comfort because your mother and father squeeze you too tight, or not enough, or that milk just tastes WRONG today and your brain hates it? I want to cry.

[@sn4rff]

a good video and an important topic but shoot - i can't say i'm enjoying this.

[@ianjackson5150]

Excellent and fascinating.

[@lydiarobinett6159]

This really reminds me of "The Little Toaster"

[@HoundMonkey]

Yeah I had to stop this one about halfway through. Might finish it later...

[@twistedpear18]

When talking about one of Harlow's apparatus with a shocking name, you’re talking about a certain “rack”, yes?

[@JootjeJ]

I looked up what you referred to. I really wish I hadn't. I think the most disgusting part is the casual nonchalance. It wasn't even part of the experiment. Just a coldhearted means to an end.

[@twistedpear18]

@@JootjeJ yeah I definitely wouldn’t recommend going down this rabbit hole unless you have a strong stomach for this kind of thing.

[@shiftymcgee9359]

On Harlow, his contribution is we don’t know what true evil is until we see it for ourselves.

[@sillysad3198]

The idea of the ethic reaseach commissions is to eliminate cruelty from the scientific research so that we not hesitate implementing it in our lives.

[@TheEdmond30]

That's fucking Bleak

[@Switcharoo12]

Heart wrenchingly bleak man,wow!😔

[@jasonbernard9012]

Yeah you can say that again. “Pit of Despair” and participants that actually can’t consent be bleak like that :/

[@marissacaputo670]

“A Freudian slip - saying one thing and meaning, your mother” LMFAO 😂

[@koreywilliams4570]

I have one of those ridge wallets and they are really nice. And the RFID blocking thing actually works. I keep my key card in it and it won't work on the door unless I take it mostly out.

[@bbdarknyss]

I learned of the cloth and wire mothers experiments via a documentary of some sort when I was a child; these are things that stick with you forever.

[@danielsantiagourtado3430]

Love your content 😊😊😊

[@katy4714]

I'm curious. What's your favorite channel of his?

[@JesseJoyce-cj2xg]

I understand why you didn’t go into the worst excesses of his depravity, but some of the specifics of what was done to these creatures go far beyond what was covered. I won’t go into it here, but some of it is really soul crushing. You can read about it on Wikipedia, though I don’t really recommend it.

[@lawrencecarter1954]

I was genuinely curious so I read through the Wikipedia, not sure what you're referring to that was worse than what he mentioned in the video but I guess if it's just too tough for you to go into detail, lol

[@JootjeJ]

​@@lawrencecarter1954I learned more just now from other sites. Some of his worst deeds IMO aren't even mentioned in most places because they weren't actually part of the experiments. Just ways to set up the necessary subjects. Absolutely horrific.

[@lawrencecarter1954]

@@JootjeJ that's almost as vague as the first persons comment, nothing stood out as being worse on Wikipedia than what was mentioned in this video where did you find a better description? Or better yet what's the gist of it if it's just too terrible to give detail, were all adults here no need to sanitize history

[@jessicakluck6565]

I grew up and learned about this in WI schools. I NEVER knew this happened in my home state. It was appalling then- even more so now. Im disgusted

[@jd32k]

Fantastic video mate

[@lordinquis8r679]

It is ridiculous that you didn’t give a time frame to the parental fads in vogue at the time. The radical generation born and raised during the 1940s and 50s ( baby boomers)are explained by this faddish isolation of the parents.

[@Jayjay-qe6um]

Although Harlow certainly was aware of the animal protection legislation in place in the United Kingdom since 1876, active legislative attempts in the United States did begin until 1960, where the Animal Welfare Act was passed in 1966.

[@LightningArtifactsKingMachine]

Gee torturing someone makes them unhappy, who would have thought. ....Mind blowing research....

[@JootjeJ]

Yeah, but by that point he expected them to be depressed. He didn't experiment on whether or not the torture would cause depression. He ended up creating depressed monkeys in order to study them.

[@katy4714]

🤣 😂 🤣

[@LightningArtifactsKingMachine]

@@JootjeJ Oh boy aren't the results surprising too.

[@marthr7487]

I remember my AP Psych class covered this, and the teacher attempted to show us the videos but stopped within maybe 20 seconds because everyone was horrified and devastated about the treatment the monkeys went through. That was enough to get most of us crying

[@ImFreeNowWhatMichelleFortier]

I want to but I can’t. I’m already crying just thinking about it

[@AvatAR42420]

I think the man should be recognized both for steering society away from a detrimental course and for his experiments that were pure animal cruelty. The good and the bad.

[@AldrickExGladius]

Ah yes, we all loved those good night hand shakes before slipping off into dreamworld.

[@TitularHeroine]

>snort laugh< They could salute like a soldier and play "Taps" or something

[@zerodadutch6285]

I went to college for 3 years as an early education major (in wisconsin) and the cloth mother was one of the things our psychology teacher made sure we knew about.

[@bjornodin]

Having attended boarding school from the age of 6, I have a deep understanding of how some of these monkeys felt... My reaction was very similar too 😢

[@HughTube-ni6kb]

My dad's 91 and still recovering from the experience.

[@JesseJoyce-cj2xg]

I’m sorry you had to go through that, I hope you can find peace and happiness in your life

[@horseman217]

We will all be free of our mental scars, some when we live some when we are gone. Hope he has had a full life afterwards.@@HughTube-ni6kb

[@CHemICalCHemIstry]

Love the videos, keep them going my man.

[@mbcell7624]

Look at the coursework required for Psychology majors. The coursework programs I looked at from several state universities do not require a single Biology course. All human biology is based on molecular interactions within cells and the cellular environment. If you do not understand the neuron and the molecular basis of memory, how can you understand anything about the human brain... you cannot.

[@veronikalynn5084]

Psychology without a biological component is far easier to monetize 🙃

[@edwardmccall450]

This explains alot.

[@TheAvengeddonut]

i'm speechless.. this was absolutely harrowing to hear

[@DecanFrost]

YES! outtakes are back!

[@carminia824]

Quite interesting. The loud background music is very distracting though.

[@Benson_aka_devils_advocate_88]

This one actually wasn't too bad, when compared to what some of his other editors have done.

[@kyledelgado2356]

Wish there was no background music.

[@sarameyrick7182]

Love your stuff but I don't think I can watch this one'😮😢

[@MrJustbrowsing12345]

How did harlow know my ex and her pit of despair?

[@adenkyramud5005]

Lmao

[@christiphorballestero683]

I got one of them.....

[@jasonbernard9012]

Him and his ideas get around fam…gotta keep your eyes out for those wire mother monkeys 😉

[@MrSnake-dh3hu]

7:07 Brain Blaze/Casual Criminalist Simon came out there for a second

[@ianonymous3524]

Would like to see a video on the Stanford prison experiment

[@thalastianjorus]

The truly sad, and horrific, thing about this? We learned so very much from these studies that revolutionized the way we treat other human beings, and even how we treat other animals. It is sad, but before this we did horrific things to each other, and animals, without any concept of the harm we were doing.

[@snowangelnc]

Have we really learned all that much though? Look around and you'll see that the world is still full of people doing horrific things to each other and to animals. I don't think it has ever been so much a matter of not knowing that we were doing harm, as much as it's that there have always been a lot of thoughtless, cruel, unfeeling, selfish, sociopathic, or even outright sadistic people in this world.

[@thalastianjorus]

@@snowangelnc I think you misunderstand what I was saying...

[@katwitanruna]

I got a BA in Psychology in ‘82 and did grad work in experimental psychology in the early 90s. I put Harlow in with the guy who did the authoritarian studies

[@sunnyquinn3888]

Babies need positive, warm interaction with their mother to grow up properly, what a crazy concept!

[@RichardChave-xl9yw]

Hesounds like a monster cut from the same cloth as Dr John Money. How about doing a video on him sometime?

[@lulumoon3636]

I remember covering this in my Psych degree and yeah, absolutely horrific

[@RichardChave-xl9yw]

@@lulumoon3636 What's truly horrific is that his failed work gave rise to the LGBT philosophy that new gender roles can be enforced on a person. this has led to both the permanent mutilation of thousands in what was originally a reversible operation, and the high suicide rate in the post-op community. All in the name of postmodernism.

[@Maesterful]

Wow, what a monster. His sick experiments are obviously a result of him not receiving affection from his own mother.

[@juliajs1752]

No. His experiments were a result of his free will and complete disregard of any other living being's feelings and suffering.

[@AnnaAnna-uc2ff]

Not at all obvious.

[@skycloud4802]

Or he could have simply been a psychopath.

[@sendthis9480]

Maybe his mother was made out of wire and wood, and thought she was great.

[@mwhitelaw8569]

In some viewpoints Much like what social media and the internet have done to the intimacy of humanity and it's social construct. But I'm just a stupid trucker What do i know

[@jamesbest9038]

Hey Simon, you should consider an Into The Shadows about Walter Ashby Plecker. He developed the frame work for the racial laws in the United States in the in 1924s which in turn inspired The Nuremberg Laws.

[@Caelris]

22:28 is a depressing explanation of my childhood

[@deanjenkins3077]

Madlad Harlow, expirementally proven a thing he suffered from himself.

[@MrEricSir]

As soon as Dr. Terman showed up I was worried this would take an even darker turn than it did.

[@multiyapples]

I never knew about these experiments.

[@SteveCave]

What a monster…. Wow….

[@asscheeks3212]

Monsters are needed to study how future monsters are form. This is common knowledge now, but back in those days? A revaluation

[@agentsmith2378]

Luv your content guys Simon and the whole team do fantastic work.ty.

[@tylersmartt4556]

Damn thats some messed up torture methods

[@jamescollins345]

I fully understand Harlow's urge to follow all the possibilities. During the times that not showing affection was recommended we had 2 World Wars.

[@kddicks5115]

Don’t F-up your kids!

[@mollybennett3291]

And don’t fuck up other people/animals kids too boot

[@Sam-y5o6j]

Erm.. so, maybe don't look up the flowerpot technique, or disk over water technique widely used to this day

[@JootjeJ]

Well, you did warn us. My fault entirely for looking anyway. 😢

[@nondhimmi1]

As a student RN i was horrified by these experiments. Over 30 years later i look back on how much they influenced my work with children requiring mental health care. The importance of attachment was imprinted on me and I believe I've helped a few kids of all ages because of it. These poor animals inspired me... not the study.

[@BeeNotDismayed]

Am I in a goddamned Harlow experiment?

[@demoneIephant]

Man this shit is heartbreaking :((

[@oThDeth]

Yes pls the background music is way to loud I did realy have an hard time.... Specially till minute 11. And when finally stoped, start other way more distracting 0.o in crescendo .... Please this happens from time to time pls pls

[@EarthenCavy]

Ugh my heart… 🥺

[@cicichambers3887]

OK they're talking about the ethical treatment of animals but what they're not telling you is in psychology degrees. They also have you do vivisection. It's one of the reasons why I didn't get my doctorate in psychology, because I refuse to do that to an animal.

[@mitzi66]

What a cruel man! How could this not be obvious?

[@Snusmumrikean]

Simple, different Era and culture. Even today we got people who don't understand this what we consider common knowledge.

[@cicichambers3887]

Just so we all understand here this is also how disassociative avoidant and narcissistic people are made