Has Fascism Returned To Italy? w/ David Broder

[@rickb3650]

So, the fascists gave their supporters something to vote for, while the "center" and "left" just hoped their voters would vote against the fascists. Does this sound at all familiar?

[@Zhicano]

Yes but the real Italian left was decapitated by Operation GLADIO. What's left is liberalism with a veneer of leftist values.

[@beyondaboundary6034]

Indeed.

[@Tulkash01]

It’s actually more complex than that. The Italian Democratic Party was responsible for most of the legislation that reduced worker rights in Italy, they dismantled their own network throughout the Country while Fratelli d’Italia actually started opening new sections. The Democratic Party would very much like to be a right wing neoliberal party while forcing the electorate to choose between them and the right (so they dream of an American or British system) but the Italian system has room for alternatives (most recently the 5 Stars Movement) which forces the Democratic Party to maintain a bit of leftist stances (at least for electoral appeal). The Truth is the right cannot be beaten in Italy when their main opponent for all intents and purposes is a right wing party itself, just one that masquerades as something else and is wholly dedicated to keeping a select group of people in parliament, with all the benefits that position entails.

[@rickb3650]

@@Tulkash01 Thank you for that information. Good luck to all of us. Harry Truman said, "Given the choice between a Republican and someone who acts like a Republican, people will vote for the real Republican all the time" Something our "democratic" party has refused to understand since he was still in office.

[@Tulkash01]

@@rickb3650 As with all these "former social-democratic parties" (which for the US means going back to the seventies) they have a strong incentive not to understand that. They bank on being "the lesser evil" and follow the old witch motto "there is no alternative"

[@NameName-lv4lu]

His hair makes him look like a writer. I'll check out his book

[@VictorSanchez-kx5hb]

Is Fascism in style? Because I see people saying the jews are even Fascist? Does anyone even know what a Fascist is?

[@Ianpact]

Thank you, David Broder and Jen.

[@nugrid1117]

Let's Build a Global Community for All!

[@phis7230]

Mabe you also should considering the neoliberal dictatorship of mario monti in italy. He was basically a non elected president how forced the austerity over his country. He was supportet by the democratic party. And this is why they are hated by the people.

[@helengarrett6378]

Has Fascism returned to Italy and everywhere? Like covid it is making everyone sick and just won't go away.

[@MrMarinus18]

I think a big reason is that the left in many places is still very weak and part of the establishment. So fascism pretty much is unchecked in it's ability to use the people's rightous anger. A new radical left needs to emerge.

[@antoniomariamacri7500]

The naval blockade is literally Trump's Wall italian edition.

[@melaniecampbell7055]

I just call it common sense.

[@antoniomariamacri7500]

@@melaniecampbell7055 it's literally unfeasable.

[@melaniecampbell7055]

@@antoniomariamacri7500 Says who? You? Naval blockades work. For example Cuba.

[@antoniomariamacri7500]

@@melaniecampbell7055 1 The blockade on Cuba is a crime already. 2 Italy isn't the United State, and the cost of keeping a permanent naval blockade on 3000 km of coastline isn't remotely worth it.

[@melaniecampbell7055]

@@antoniomariamacri7500 cuba is a crime? no. you know what is a crime? you wanting to let actual criminals into italy. blockades work. the cuban blockade worked and so will italy's.

[@59Gretsch]

So as of today, it’s been five months and we haven’t seen any of the “pants on fire“ predictions he made come true. I noticed when you asked him about how she got elected he never mentioned one thing she ran on, his fix station is with fascism And that seems to be the beginning and end of his considerations on why people get elected. I noticed he does that other thing too, where he uses the term “far right” but never - far left.

[@nathanngumi8467]

Very informative!

[@15clank]

Mama Mia ! Here we go again!!

[@joseluisaguilaralonzo6374]

HALLO JEN & DAVID... GREAT SCIENCE JOURNALISM

[@BartAnderson_writer]

Intelligent summary.

[@tank0792]

This video is clutch especially after i just finished watching the segment on Meloni from democracy now

[@cigolsimons1768]

"clutch" lmfao

[@tank0792]

@@cigolsimons1768 yea it's funny how words work isnt it

[@Nikosi9]

@@tank0792 Or, not...

[@mushroommonster4295]

No minimum wage in Italy? And a growing fascist movement? Scary stuff, solidarity with our comrades over there

[@wm2429]

It's a shame that Italy's govt is normally so dysfunctional but now we can only hope that it stays so

[@areed2000]

I need to start my own right wing movement. It seems extremely simple to trick conservatives out of money, power, democracy, etc.

[@jamesfiegel9675]

Excellent guest thank you the questions of Italy going FACIST?

[@MarioKimtomi]

Fascism is here in USA now

[@camadams9149]

Remember: You are not pro working class if you support immigration. Offshoring jobs and importing labor are the same thing. Anything less than hardline anti-immigration is neoliberalism. We proved that in the US when covid shut down immigration. Low skill worker wages SPIKED

[@elanvital-e9z]

I think you are mistaken and that it is, in fact, the other way around. The whole point of being pro working class is that you want people to have a life of dignity and their basic needs satisfied and THAT does not fit well with being anti-immigration.

[@camadams9149]

@@elanvital-e9z Nope. I have it completely right. The point of being pro-working class is knowing people in my society are well cared for & knowing everyone in my community living well is good for me personally. You can not care about US working class people while caring about the interests of other people. To do that requires global averaging of living conditions aka a flow of wealth from the US to other countries. We saw that with the rise of China. Sure Chinese people got lifted out of poverty. Americans experienced 50 years of stagnation and declining living standards. Immigration ended during the pandemic, low skilled positions had a spike in wages. If your positions align with corporate interests, they are not pro-working class. Immigration is a pro-corporation position

[@elanvital-e9z]

@@camadams9149 I concede that you have the right ideas in mind, Cam, but unfortunately you have fallen prey of an erroneous belief that our current system wants you to believe, that there is not enough for everyone and that we need to fight tooth and nail with each other for the spoils. But, in fact, that is not the case. If the capitalists would not get away with all the resources that they extract from the workers themselves there would be plenty for EVERYONE. Therefore, I think we should recognize the struggles workers of other countries face, stop fighting with each other and start fighting together against those who are in power and appropriate other people's work. The US and the world in general would actually benefit if it had a greater labor force not a smaller one. Although, I understand that this is way too far in the future and kind of a pipe dream. A more immediate solution would be to lift the minimum wage and tax the rich but that is also far-fetched. Therefore, what you say of labor protectionism in the interests of the national workers does kind of solve the problem but at the cost of the elite getting away and leaving the power structures and the system of exploitation intact.

[@camadams9149]

@@elanvital-e9z "there is not enough for everyone and that we need to fight tooth and nail with each other for the spoils." I know there is enough for everyone. I also know it took 50 years to pull ~800 million people out of poverty in China. So it will take about another 150-200 years to get the rest. Im unwilling to subject Americans to 200 years more of the last 50 years. "The US and the world in general would actually benefit if it had a greater labor force not a smaller one." Yah maybe in 200 years, until then that flow of wealth will be required to make poor countries economically productive Essentially your argument boils down to: If: 1) The entire global economic system was different 2) International relations were all different 3) Reforms were implemented universally 3b) Those reforms worked 3c) Those reforms were not taken over by elite interests 4) We let Americans continue to suffer for a century or 2 Everything would be fine. Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds. I don't mean to be harsh but come on, people like you are the reason we are in this situation now. I am not willing to sacrifice my people for other people. Everyone else also feels the same way (just human nature). Hardline immigration policy is the only policy. Everything else is just hurting American workers

[@svennielsen633]

Fascism was the MILDEST FORM of totalitarian dictatorship that the world has seen. Conditions were far worse in Lenin's and Stalin's communist dictatorships, in Nazi-Germany, in Pol Pots Khmer Rouge, in Ho Chi Minh's Vietnam, in Zimbabwe, in Khomeini's Iran and so on. Mussolini was an imperialist but he was nothing compared to Stalin or Mao. Oh yes, at the terror murders of the socialist Brigado Rosso were far worse than anything committed by the Fascists back in the days. PS: Mussolini was a socialist himself. He was expelled from the party only because that he believed that Italy should take active part in WWI. Fascism is a branch of Communism and Socialism. The only difference is, that Fascists and Nazis do not believe in one centralized world dictatorship (or as Lenin called it: Internationale).

[@patricialongo5870]

Fascism never left Italy. That's why it has the dirtiest air in the EU.

[@Achrononmaster]

@22:00 when are you political pundits going to learn macroeconomics? The Fratelli d'Italia proposed tax cuts do not "blow a hole in public finances". They increase negative digits on the Italian government balance sheet, and add to the digits in the bank accounts of the wealthy. They do not limit the capacity of the Italian government to spend on social programs. Spending is a currency injection, it's not coming from tax receipts. The choice to decrease investment in social programs is a choice, and has nothing to do with tax cuts, unless you pretend it does, but it would only be pretending (right-wing propaganda, the propaganda is that taxes "pay for stuff" - they do not. Governments issue their own currency, they do not need rich people to exist.) One caveat is that Italy no longer issue their own currency, the euro is effectively a foreign currency. But with the ECB buying up all member nation debt at present, in effect the eurozone members now have partial currency sovereignty, and so can run as large a currency injection (aka. fiscal deficit) as needed for full employment. They are always choosing not to, but it is a choice of the parliaments, the wrong choice. Especially in a supply shock inflation era - you want to _increase production,_ so you want to hire all the unemployed in meaningful jobs. You do not want to create mass unemployment in a supply shock (cost-push) led inflation event, that'd be what economists call "pro-cyclical" (making things a whole lot worse, or _crashing the economy by causing mass unemployment_ to stop the inflation, aka. economic vandalism, aka. Larry Summers championship class warfare). There are far more progressive ways to stop cost-push inflation, the best is to invest in shoring up supply, fully employ labour for public service. [hastag the neoliberals are idiots, and so are the fascists, who are economic neoliberals with more extreme idpol.]

[@Achrononmaster]

NOTE: negative digits on a currency issuer's balance sheet have absolutely no grave economic consequence. They represent the net money supply of that issuer. If the money supply increases it will not cause inflation if general production rises at the same rate. If the *_rate of circulation_* of currency increases it *_might_* cause some inflation, but only when increased production of the real goods does not match. If there is a mismatch it is *_still not truly inflation_* if the *_real wage_* is increasing, it would be only a nominal adjustment in the price level (aka. currency regauging). In the post-COVID era the _real wage has been declining,_ so what the lowest wage workers see is real inflation (loss of purchasing power of your *_whole wage,_* not of just $1). The rich have seen massive deflation (of prices *_relative to_* their incomes) in the post-COVID era because their income has been rising faster than the rate of CPI inflation.

[@Asrahn]

"The choice to decrease investment in social programs is a choice . . . negative digits on a currency issuer's balance sheet have absolutely no grave economic consequence." Indeed. Purposely running up the deficit is exactly the motivating factor of every conservative and liberal government globally use to cut social programs whilst simultaneously lowering taxes for the rich and privatizing what little safety nets the worker movements built in the 1900's. The gods know it, or anything really, doesn't have to make sense from an economic standpoint seeing as they're doing it entirely out of ideological reasons motivated by material gains for their class - it just needs to seemingly make sense, on the surface, for their voting base and those in the periphery to be on board. In that sense you're correct in that it doesn't "blow a holy in public finances" in the real sense, but they will be able to present it as thus in the near future through the usual right-wing obfuscations - and, naturally, without telling the people where all that damn tax revenue went.

[@davidbroder1313]

Despite your lofty tone you are mistaken, 1) Italy has had primary surpluses since the 90s, 2) Fratelli d’Italia promises to remain within the deficit limits set by the European Fiscal Compact, i.e. ones which commit it to primary surplus, 3) Fratelli d’Italia has earmarked areas for social spending cuts, notably in unemployment benefits. The tax cuts are a massive upward transfer of wealth, within the scope of dogmatic commitment to budget balancing

[@davidbroder1313]

I think you also overestimate the ECB’s deference to national governments in terms of buying up (new) public debt. Its post-pandemic approach has shown more flexibility than was seen during the sovereign debt crisis, but we still have the Semester process and in this case a (expected) new prime minister who has slapped down her own allies who advocated deficit spending

[@davidbroder1313]

It is quite possible that the govt will be forced by circumstances to act differently than it says. However, in order to make your theoretical point (I guess about MMT) you are ignoring the undermining of public spending which they actually promise to do

[@Tulkash01]

About Fratelli d’italia and fascism: as the video makes clear these are actually the direct heirs of the original fascist party. Their political personnel is or has been fascist often going all the way back to aMussolini’s regime. The social and geopolitical circumstances do not allow for the abolishment of democracy in Italy but it’s hollowing out is well underway and Meloni is certain to speed up the process even more. Like 100 years ago (the 28th of October it would be a century since the so called “March on Rome” took place) opposition parties are divided and weak while the financial and industrial elites are more than willing to jump on ship with the rightwingers. Italy as a Republic was born as anti fascist. Italy constitution is explicitly anti fascist. With Meloni in power the risk is that Italy changed into something much less democratic than it is now even if he and her party have no intentions of defying the international order.

[@dx315]

Genuine, good faith question here: Can you really blame Italians for being pushed to the right, at least culturally, after seeing bus loads of migrants being dumped on their front yards years ago? No wonder they voted her in when that's what the other side gives them.

[@patricialongo5870]

Italian people are old and dying. They need people.

[@NameName-lv4lu]

Yes, the Italians carry blame for electing a fascist government. A refugee crisis doesn't spark fascism. Fascism exploit refugee crisis with racism to get themselves elected and Italians who voted for her because of that are racists. Many millions more refugees from the middle east have gone to Germany that Italy, they just elected a left government. Refugees must be welcomed with open arms because ethe only other option is brutality toward our brothers amd sisters. It's curious that fascists exploit refugee crisis when thwbrefugees aren't the same race. /s

[@thomasmurdochduncan]

And what is Meloni offering instead? It is the same imperialist NATO foreign policy fueling migration into Europe, plus EU neoliberal austerity.

[@nikolademitri731]

It might be good faith, but it misses a lot of history… you can’t just reduce it to these factors, not if you want accuracy. This has far more to do with economic hardships and austerity, and a lack of a left to answer for it, or provide an alternative, than migrants who were not at all given to them by the left. Italy’s problems didn’t begin with migrants showing up in large numbers, nor did it only recently start moving to the right… Ultimately, if we really want to get deeper into the roots of modern rightist power in Italy, the CIA/US state department’s decades of postwar meddling has more to answer for than any migrants who’ve made it there over the last several years… I wouldn’t reduce it to just that, because that too would be missing a lot, but in terms of broader context, it makes a lot more sense, and can actually be pretty well correlated with the beating down of the Italian left.. ✌️

[@NameName-lv4lu]

@@nikolademitri731 absolutely the Italian station chief egenchad a hand in the assassination of JFK let alone dozens of assassinations across Italy against the left movement.

[@DEWwords]

The guy can't comb his fucking hair? Or, the guy can't comb his fucking hair. --- ? The kids of people with money are funny, so you never know.--- Could we ever, maybe, see a labor-leftist, please, instead of a culture reviewer?

[@DEWwords]

How 'bout a little content assessment as opposed to brand-label review? More what, when, where, how and less who. Cause really, identity politics has pushed me past caring. --- What does it all mean to the bottom 60%?

[@jusupdjidjimidjimilovic3677]

It returned, but not Italian fascism but EU and NATO Nazism.

[@smokyondagrass2353]

The operation gladio party got elected & the E.U. probably wants to start another one

[@nikolademitri731]

Yeah, we’re not fans of the EU or NATO over here either, jesup digimonovic.. That’s not gonna trigger people here, nice try though.

[@goshane23]

@@nikolademitri731 question is not of 'being fans or not' but to listen to what is said in this propaganda-sentence: to make eu or nato a legitimate enemy by calling them 'nazi' .. with a little denocratical sense left this is not only "bulls..." , which is it, too, but an absolute fatal and imperialistic reconfiguration of the substance of having the might or perverted 'right' to start wars. just naming the other 'nazi' and the moral and political and military doors are open for cleaning without any reasons

[@NameName-lv4lu]

Not worried about Italians fascism striking out with an army because their population is elderly and they literally don't have enough young people to run their country

[@melaniecampbell7055]

'fascists'...here come the slurs & manipulation again. Children, stick to the adult issues that matter like the economy and safety.

[@Tulkash01]

As an Italian I can assure you that most of Brother of Italy political personnel is technically fascist. This includes (but is not limited to) Roman salutes, veneration of Mussolini, hate for “the reds”, disdain for democracy and so on. We are talking about people who in many cases can trace their genealogy back to functionaries, supporters and enablers of Mussolini himself. They have always been unapologetically fascist, of recent Meloni simply ordered them to keep their rhetoric down in order to avoid harmful controversies before the elections

[@melaniecampbell7055]

@@Tulkash01 don't write trash. i'm not a 5 year old. adults care about the economy, their jobs, homes, savings and safety.

[@melaniecampbell7055]

@@Tulkash01 'roman salutes', 'veneration of mussolini', 'hate for "the reds"', ridiculous, sounds like a bad b movie from netflix. what are you a failed writer?

[@melaniecampbell7055]

@@Tulkash01 fascist, fascist, fascist - the power of suggestion, labels and slurs to beguile and trick - especially if repeated again and again.

[@Tulkash01]

@@melaniecampbell7055 I stated a fact. In this case the term "fascist" is not a slur a lot of these people are fascit in the sense that they endorse Mussolini's legacy, and some of them actually were involved in violent political activities during the 70s. It's not a matter of suggesting that someone is a right-wing authoritarian so he's a "fascist", it's simply what they are because they never really denied their affiliation. Meloni, when recently asked if she was a fascist still, said:"When Fini (the former leader of the italian fascist party's successor, called MSI) reneged the fascist party I did not dissociate myself from him", note how she avoided saying she reneged the fascist party as well.

[@bjornbuckley]

Meloni's policies are actually traditionally very left leaning. Also, it's not uncommon for classical Marxists to be culturally conservative. She gets called right wing largely for being against mass-scale immigration, but we forget that the working class are by far the people most harmed by unmitigated immigration. Sure, they raise GDP but that profit goes to employers, not the workers who have to struggle with the consequences of an unskilled labor surplus. If you are a true leftist, you will support Meloni. And let's stop using the word fascist for every person who doesn't agree with us; we've made the word effectively meaningless.

[@larshofler8298]

If you are a true leftist, you would see that "immigration" is an inherent symptom of capitalism today, and there's no use holding onto some nostalgic vision for a nation-state prior to capitalism's recent globalization. A true leftist is opposed to nostalgia in general. The idea that the immigrant worker is stealing what belongs to the local worker is pure ideology. What really matters here is the way the system works, instead of inciting anger and hatred towards other workers exploited by the system. That kind of divide-and-conquer is nothing new, and definitely not leftist. Back in the 19th century, the British state would make English workers hate Irish workers, and the American state would make white workers hate Chinese workers. This is precisely how the left loses. Internationalism is the first, second and third priority of the Left, and if you are not committed to figure things out based on that universalist principle, you are not a true leftist.

[@bjornbuckley]

@@larshofler8298 you’re supporting what’s called globalism and it does the most harm to each worker base their respective country. The goals of the left must be met in their own countries before they can help the rest of the world. The desire to limit the number of foreigner unskilled laborers entering your country is not nearly the same as hating other workers. In fact said foreigner would be helped FAR more if “developed” world stopped invading, toppling and/or exploiting the nations these immigrants come from. To achieve workers rights for everyone. We need EVERY country to support these workers, not just Italy or any other country. This is a two step process to achieve the true left’s goals. 1) Stop destroying the economies of other countries. 2) Your country’s economy serves the needs of its own people first.

[@galena6884]

Just like in the past, the fascist uses leftist policies to get their votes, once in power it will be to late. There is no such thing of unskilled labor.

[@Zhicano]

Classical Marxists are classical because they're relics. Marxists after them built off their methods and analysis. Recognizing new material realities. Conservative Marxism is long dead

[@stud6414]

@@larshofler8298 I'm sure the immigrants don't share your worldview. I'm amazed you say hate nostalgia but fail to mention how destructive left wing utopia/delusional thinking is to society.