HATSUMI bujinkan koppojutsu gikan kumogakure gyokushin PT 1

[@hollowdusk]

True all grades are related to bujinkan budo taijutsu. But as far as not questioning it is hard for anyone outside of japan to know how it went down when Hatsumi introduced the new grades. In my opinion it was a way to make bujinkan more internationally accepted and make sure people come back to continue training after 5th dan. It also says menkyo kaiden on the 5th dan certificate so it is still there in a way.

[@PhoenixNinjaBlack]

This is a nice vid I hope to see more like this.Hatsumi is very natural in his movements,alot of martial artist need that aspect of making there moves instinctive.

[@FaithandReason101]

bottom line as i see it. each person's martial arts training is their own responsibility. if you don't agree with a particular art's philosophy, or movement, don't do it. However, that doesn't give one grounds to start trashing an art one doesn't understand. having studied in the bujinkan, i can say from experience that it is an effective art. i've also studied kung fu, aikido, and briefly in the genbukan. the Bujinkan was the place i felt was the most universal in its applications. my opinion.

[@vettevr4thez516]

Thank you for being wise. Many people trash a lot of arts without knowing anything about them. I studied Aikido and Hapkido and found Hapkido to be the most effective art for me personally, but the traditional Aikido I learned was vital as well. I love your attitude and wish more people would pause and think like you did.

[@TrainingFanatic]

Now you have truly opened my eyes! Anonymous random person on the internet, your wisdom is a gift to us all!

[@dreadkos]

damn hatsumi sensei is inhuman as always .his abilities cant be described with words

[@ninpo4life]

Good stuff. He's in such good shape for a 78 year old. Most people his age are in a wheelchair, he can throw his uke!

[@brianxsmallwood]

@Creationsofmyown The thing I don't understand, is why everyone is being very aggressive/rude in their arguments. It's ok to be blunt, but the attitude is gotta go. What I mean is, if you or Arteanor want to change my views, talk to me about it, instead of lecturing me and using snide remarks because that won't change anyones mind. And, when I say I'm open minded, I mean that. Any research material you or Arteanor can link me to I would be more than glad to read, and that is not a challenge.

[@brianxsmallwood]

@Arteanor I not sure what to say Anthony. Your hostility towards me or anyone else who has a different point of view than yours is unfounded especially since no one has been hostile to you (I know that I have not been). No one is going to listen to your point of view if your going to be hostile in your rebuttals. You are only making yourself look bad every time you demean people in an attempt to further your argument. Anthony, please stop your pseudo-intellectual bullying.

[@ARDUNNO]

Wish i understood japanese......!!!!! So fascinating to watch the Grandmaster and how he moves!

[@brianxsmallwood]

@Arteanor I appreciate the link to Shinobi Soldiers, I've only seen two videos so far, I will view more later. I still feel the way I do, but I respect your view of things and I think what you have to say is worth further investigating. The only request I make is that while we are debating Ninjitsu, that everyone be respectful to one another, its ok to blunt about your beliefs, but try not to get personal about it or snide. Any other links to info you have I would be more than glad to look up :)

[@brianxsmallwood]

@Arteanor TaiJutsu basically means 'body-art', which can be anything from the way a martial artist moves, to the body movement of a janitor mopping, or even the tango dance. Every martial art has it's own taijutsu. I know quite well what Ninjitsu actually is because I don't just read about it, I train in it. I'm open minded, but have you trained in the Bujinkan system or any other martial art? Why are you acting like an internet commando? No one has attacked you personally.

[@hollowdusk]

You could say that you go to hatsumi to receive your PhD education after you have already graduated from the 5th dan ie gotten your degree in Bujinkan :). Hatsumi himself has said his classes are for 5th dans and above.

[@alejandrothegod]

Good video

[@mrtrin]

Holy shit @ 4:59... Using your head as a fulcrum = WIN

[@hollowdusk]

I don't know how much you know of Bujinkan but in order to get the 5th dan you have to travel to Japan and pass the sakki test. This is a test where you dodge a sword attack from behind. So I think if you can do that your on your way to mastership of sorts but also in the Bujinkan there is no ultimate mastership and no requirement on knowing all the techniques. It is about learning how to live in a sometimes violent world and survive. A grade is just something nice to have on a wall.

[@CentoMinzoku]

Great kotegaeshi reversal!

[@farghom]

he is super skilled

[@Arteanor]

@ZhaoZilong184 kukishin ryu has a letter, written by takamatsu saying he wanted to mix kukishin with karate todejutsu, and when they gave him the no-go, he CHANGED THE NAME OF THE SKILLS... he USED to call all of togakure, kukishin ryu ninpo... of course, i wasn't there... so i will be citing Shoto Tanemura, who at the time, was still hatsumi's top student ( and cousin). im glad you caught on they are different, rhade has been pretending there is confusion about authors.

[@Max_Power104]

haha 6.24 look how he is smiling while he is tortureing seno

[@BiBy360]

There is Armando Cantu's school which is good, one of the best in all Mexico probably.

[@brianxsmallwood]

@brianxsmallwood (part4).. everytime I am respectful to you or thoughtful to your view point, you yet again, belittle me, using snide remarks that have no place in a debate. And, to beat it all, I have done nothing to you to deserve the way you have been talking to me. And, no it is not your opinion on Bujinkan, but again, the way you turned what have been a great debate into a one-sided argument against someone who is trying to have a civil debate with you........

[@Creationsofmyown]

@andydream would you feel better if we used books written by hatsumi??? and how can you figure that he didn't authorize the video? he is talking for the camera isn't he???

[@FatalDeity]

well lets see you have assassins still but now with guns lol. I mean I wouldnt ninja's dont exist people just say that cuz dont nobody see them anymore, but my thing is if you trained in the arts of ninjutsu then your a ninja,

[@Arteanor]

@MrDontstareitsrude hey man, hows things? just wondered if you had managed to dig up some proof for toda masamitsu shinryuken. i actually think theres a good chance you may have changed your position since you made these comments a month ago. i saw you on antony's vids...

[@jackatube]

@FatalDeity dan is a rank used in martial arts. to get to 5 dan you probably have to train over 10 years so I suggest you start from where you are now - beginner. find a good dojo and go train. good luck

[@angloricua]

Please, if somebody can a translation of what he's saying at the start would be greatly appreciated! And please truthnbudo how much real experience of sokes' Taijutsu do you have? I'm just asking, have you actually been on the receiving end of his budo?

[@Arteanor]

@mumeisha "Actually, Hatsumi had been invited onto Japanese TV many years before our Ninja boom" the japanese ninja boom was much further before the american, hatsumi was still learning on weekends when takamatsu sparked the ninja boom" and there he made no qualms about his Ninja training, showing many weapons as such, etc." none of which had anything to do with shinobi. the fundamental aspect your missing is, it IS a great and complex/comprehensive approach to combat, but it's not ninjutsu.

[@brianxsmallwood]

@Creationsofmyown I assume nothing. I like to hear both sides of the story before I make a judgement on any subject, thats why I have taken the time to look into the things your saying instead of out-right saying your wrong, because for all I know, you could be right. I think it is very relevant to the discussion whether you have trained in or have a great understanding of the Bujinkan curriculum.

[@Arteanor]

@AlexRomanov1 "Seriously Arteanor, grow up, deliberately misquoting individuals, " FULL QUOTE. 'First of all, the densho and makimono were not written by Hatsumi sensei, these are densho and makimono that were written by Takamatsu sensei. Among the densho that Hatsumi sensei received from Takamatsu sensei we find the writing of Ishitani sensei who was one of Takamatsu sensei’s three masters. There is perhaps also the writing of Toda sensei, Takamatsu sensei’s grandfather continued.'

[@jackatube]

@FatalDeity he doesn't train beginners. You have to be over 5 dan or something to train with him. I don't know if it costs or how much.

[@brianxsmallwood]

@brianxsmallwood .........most of their knowledge of taijitsu was passed down from one generation to the next by teaching only, and not by scrolls. The reason being, you can read all you want about martial arts, but that don't mean you can do martial arts, Books/scrolls can only convey so much and are especially limited to explaining how to do whatever martial art......anyway, write back some more Arteanor and tell me what you think. :)

[@shoryuken83]

ninja stuff!! hell yee

[@Deidara85]

Interesting, it seems to have been specifically created to counter Judo moves and the likes, ergo grappling and throws.

[@DouglasEKnappMSAOM]

Judo is WAY younger.

[@Arteanor]

@RhadeConstantine "Also the Kakutogi No Rekishi references a periodical BEFORE takamatsu's birth, that mentions Togakure ryu." this is an outright lie. nuff said, girl i am so done... check it... the periodical makes no mention of togakure.

[@brianxsmallwood]

@brianxsmallwood ........Authentic Ninjitsu schools are hard to find. I recommend Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinenkan, and Nindo Ryu (which I've just discovered). Bujinkan teaches 9 ryu. Genbukan teaches alot of different stuff, and some things that weren't reported handed down to Hatsumi, Jinenkan focuses on the basics and is strict scroll interpretation. Anyway, I recommend everyone interested train in an authentic Ninpo Taijitsu school and find out for yourself. Warning: Ninjitsu is not Akido.

[@Arteanor]

@weloveyoudimebag lets be specific, to who? a foreigner? or a japanese with other obligations on his time? to be fair, a foreigner cramming in as much time as he can, as opposed to the rather sparse(like on weekends that hatsumi managed with takamatsu) are hardly comparable.

[@brianxsmallwood]

@Arteanor Well, the reason I have not wrote back is because I've spent the entire time from my first discussion with you to the last trying to get you to speak in a respectful tone, end personal attacks/snide remarks, and follow some thing that resembles debate etiquette. I'm not trying to argue, but debate, which are two separate things. A debate is not personal, where two opposing sides present factual positions to support their case. And argument, is opinionated, not open minded, unproductive

[@Arteanor]

@Cagedand3nRaged so where is the stealth ? where is the patience? what you personally believe (miss south carolina) is irrelevant to what the truth is.... since the truth is, that takamatsu didnt mention ninjutsu, or toda until AFTER the start of the ninja craze... why would that be the case? why only come out into the public eye AFTER the start of the ninjacraze? i have never argued that takamatsu wasnt a geat MA, but it is irrelevant to whether it is what he says it is, ninjutsu.

[@brianxsmallwood]

@Arteanor Your coming across rather hostile and I apologize if I sounded the same. Your right, the schools I mentioned do trace back to the same root one way or another, Hatsumi/Takamatsu. As far as proving whether Bujinkan Ninjitsu is authentic, I cannot because Shinobi having detailed records of their exploits defeats the purpose of being a spy. Yes, they made scrolls on describing their philosophy , weapons and methods, but..............

[@brianxsmallwood]

@Arteanor Hey Arteanor and everyone else, I just wanted to say I am a student of Bujinkan Ninjitsu of the Konooburu dojo. The history of Ninjitsu is long and complex. But, what I can tell you is about half of the Bujinkan curriculum is made up of Samurai schools and the other half Ninpo (ninjitsu). Also, Hatsumi teaches Ninjitsu in more of a modern way as opposed to traditional japanese way (lots of ceremony, bowing, stuff like that). Beware of fake Bujinkan schools. .........

[@Arteanor]

@RhadeConstantine because a bit of writing in the margin doesn't mean you can pretend it is written by Toda Masamitsu.... and Ishitane writing some things for takamatsu isn't relevant... what I posted, IS relevant, to you claiming that you have a togakure ryu hidensho that had information written before takamatsu,.. if it weren't written by takamatsu, why did kacem SAY ' these are densho and makimono that were written by Takamatsu sensei.' SHOULDN'T he be given or know of originals?

[@brianxsmallwood]

@Creationsofmyown Again, being rude. Treat me with respect and I will do the same to you as I have been. I checked out two video's so far of Shinobi Soldiers as well as done some research on the guy who has the KZbin account. Hatsumi teaches what you consider Ninjitsu (the art of stealth) as well as what you consider is not ninjitsu: Ninpo Taijutsu. My question to you is: have you trained in Bujinkan system or checked out some of Hatsumi's books or researched the lineage of Takamatsu?

[@vergilheartnet]

so koppo really exist?? and i thought it was an ancient martial art lost long ago??

[@SeanteBrown]

I must meet him b4 I die!

[@Arteanor]

@RhadeConstantine "what I said was that the TRH had accurate historical information about Daisuke Nishina which was only verified about 20 years ago " VERIFIED? how can he be verified? you have evidence? "obviously takamatsu couldn't have been telling the truth, So he probably used Ninja ESP to obtain accurate historical data," funny, because Buffon has checked the Nishina records, and he wasn't able to find any mention of Daisuke Nishina in any of the books BJK claim him to be in...

[@Arteanor]

@Bronnenheim and where did i ever describe a kabuki style ninja? just because YOU remain ignorant of the nature of ninjutsu ( i suggest you check out Shinobi Soldiers series here on youtube, or read bansenshukai, ninpiden, and the shoninki) by all means if you think you have some knowledge of ninjutsu being anything other than the skills of stealth survival and espionage as i described please feel free to cite them. keep them historical tho. you may want to brush up on your japanese first...

[@AntonyCummins]

Hi, My name is antony cummins. People seem to think i am another youtube user, i think you may have mistaken someone for me. My i ask where is the debate up to?

[@Creationsofmyown]

@brianxsmallwood you do NOT train in it... you are assuming that the training you were told was, or includes ninjutsu, DOES NOT. since you continue to persist in your claim of ninpo taijutsu, then i would like to see some evidence for this claim... since dean, aka Scottbaioisdead hasnt been able to do the same thing im asking you to do... and i dont think you know more than him.... im gonna guess that you CANT. being openminded doesnt change the lineage of your school

[@celo456937]

I notice negative comments from you all over youtube on this sub]ect. respectfully, If this annoys you so much, perhaps you should find more productive use of your time and cosiderable energies to comment on a subject that you can be passionate and positive about. I assure constantly you that attacking Mr. Hatsumi isn't going to convince anyone who admires him and seems only to cause you undo stress.

[@DrVoltage1]

@Creationsofmyown Yeah thats what it looks like. Real* martial arts wouldn't leave the face open while being attacked like that, and those techniques are just so offbalanced. This vid makes it pretty obvious that its just showbusiness. And that sucks :(

[@Arteanor]

@ZhaoZilong184 @ZhaoZilong184 funny, i think he would teach you to not make assumptions about people.... or rather, that he would if he had any knowledge of ninjutsu... since we have clear evidence that Takamatsu used to call the skills of Togakure something entirely different (kukishin ryu ninpo) when he STARTED teaching it to hatsumi..... i think that we can SAFELY ASSUME that HATSUMI KNOWS HE IS LYING... there IS no togakure ryu,... just what Takamatsu made up...

[@Arteanor]

@AlexRomanov1 CONTINUED 'grandfather, who transmitted seven schools to him, but I no longer remember all of the writing that I saw. But to respond more directly to your question, yes, and I’m being honest, I have seen the densho and makimono written by Takamatsu sensei. I didn’t only see them in a video, I touched them, I had them in my hands, what I can say is that I had those of the nine schools.' him pretending the quote isn't there is the issue, not its veracity, google kwoon kacem. easy.

[@Arteanor]

@RhadeConstantine "things going from saying the kuki family has to saying it's in the kuki family archives is proof, which is the equivalent of first saying someone has a book, then when being asked to prove it, saying they have a book in their house" nononononono the BOOK details a LETTER kept in the ARCHIVE with the REST of the papers of the CLAN. the BOOK should be easily attainable at most japanese libraries... did you even look for it? i have give you the kanji several times.

[@Creationsofmyown]

you do know that the grades given are in no way related to ninjutsu right? further, that hatsumi has NEVER substantiated his claims to ninjutsu... personally i find it odd that nobody questions why hatsumi stopped using the menkyo system...

[@Arteanor]

@brianxsmallwood so it has been 3 weeks since i asked you where is the ninjutsu your school claims... did you find it yet???? ROFL.

[@FatalDeity]

This is probably a dumb question but do you have to pay to get tought by Hatsumi? and hw much? cuz I know I have a natural talent for martial arts but I never ever took no type of martial classes or anything, I only improvise what I do but certain things I do its like...real, I just need my locked skills to be open and enhanced

[@Arteanor]

@RhadeConstantine "There is PERHAPS also the writing of Toda sensei Takamatsu sensei's grandfather, who transmitted seven schools to him,' emphasis mine, it indicates that he has started talking about his GUESS. 'It's the very next line. this blatant distortion is telling, " is simply because of limited space in youtube comments... i ignored the part where he guesses, as i am interested in the facts. i used the definite, that proved what you said was a lie. comments can only be so long...

[@Creationsofmyown]

@23mavcat "do you train in some other art and your being analytical or are you just some ninja history buff?" unfortunately nothing authentic near me and i don't want to condition bad techniques.and YES i am precisely that. "I have trained with a good number of very martially competent guys in the bujinkan system." cool, i have seen far too many people being given teaching grades by hatsumi that are terrible... there is no quality control.

[@brianxsmallwood]

@brianxsmallwood (part3) This whole discussion, for me, has not become whether Bujinkan Ninjitsu is authentic, but instead, trying to get you to talk in a more respectful tone so we can actually start debating Bujinkan, for I am open to listening to different view points and even changing my own, which is again, proper debate etiquette. I have watch some of the videos you mentioned in good spirit to see if their is anything new to learn, maybe even change my opinion. But,...

[@Arteanor]

@mumeisha "Unfortunately, Hatsumi sensei is not teaching ALL 9 school lineages to everyone. He is really only teaching 6." then you admit he has no business claiming to teach bujinkan ninjutsu, as you yourself still claim here on this video... "It's said that Takamatsu actually saved Kukishin ryu from becoming extinct." by those unfamiliar with kukishen ryu...it is a large and living art, with many branch ryuha... he was DENIED the chance to open such a branch and call it ninpo.

[@bluespirit8643]

Olha aí o Pai do Jiraya

[@brianxsmallwood]

@brianxsmallwood (part2)The whole time you have been talking down to me, you should've instead, spoke in more polite terms. When you write as hostile as you do, you immediately cause people to become more defensive to what you are trying to tell them, and in the end, because of your hostile words, they will not listen to you. So there is little point in presenting your position regardless of whether your right or wrong.

[@MrHanstar100]

Take what is useful and discard the rest (an old saying by who?) Whatever you find useful in this art wheather it be Bujinkan or Ninjitsu etc is it worth that much debate.....how about redifing a new approach towards current applications and methods..... practitioners need to look at what Budo is and what it means then we will have a clear path towards training and spiritual growth in every combat art

[@Arteanor]

@mumeisha "It is ridiculous to think that Takamatsu sensei learned all that you see here on you tube [and then some] from mere Children's Ninja Games." ninja-gokko is more accurately "playing at ninja", its just the way the quote is, and i don't butcher quotes. nobody holds your strawman position, that takamatsu learned FROM ninja games.

[@Arteanor]

@RhadeConstantine rhade: "everybody, lets all ignore the fact that Togakure ryu no hidensho produced historically accurate information that was only verified over a century after it was written" Kacem, to Kwoon magazine 2005 "First of all, the densho and makimono were not written by Hatsumi sensei, these are densho and makimono that were written by Takamatsu sensei." you sir, are a liar. written by takamatsu, from the mouth of your favorite bujinkan historian Kacem Zoughari.

[@FatalDeity]

somebody said He dont do beginners

[@BNOFTW]

@deidara85 buddy you have no idea about countering JUDO... it all stems Jutaijutsu... JUDO is a sport, where Ninpo is A KILLING ART tried and tested on the battlefield over many hundereds of years adding to this, what they dont teach today... died on the battlefield.

[@FatalDeity]

ha 5 dan thats on tekken. what is that anyway I know its a rank, but what dan stand for. and what do I have to dan in.

[@Arteanor]

@RhadeConstantine '"This what you said troll" no, this is what you SAY i said... anyone can check the log of this... its all here. didnt say anything about his handwriting. which is one word, and i know that... hence a simple search of all comments shows ur lying. '"when Kacem tells us that Takamatsu's is the ONLY hand writing" While Kacem say's its also Ishitani and perhaps Toda,' even if i had said that, it doesn't change that he precedes your quote with what i said he said. "guesses""

[@Derukugi2]

Oh yes? So why wasnt he in jail then? The Hatsume crowd is so gullible.

[@Arteanor]

@RhadeConstantine "so, as we've seen you claiming multiple times before, but you've never ever produced any evidence of this letter of yours." of mine? funny, you have been told 6 times, and been provided the original text and my translation twice. you sir are a liar. it is in the kuki family archives, with the rest of the works owned by kukishin ryu... it IS addressed to the head of kuki. it is also included in the Kukishinden Zensho. "back up your bs about buffon checking record" ask him?

[@kingcubi24]

the kuki family is full of shit like u

[@Arteanor]

@OkamiNinja7 okami i think your a cool kid ( no condescension there). but i think you are wrong... and since we dont just believe everything we are told without evidence ( for instance if i said I was hatsumi.... you wouldnt believe me right?) then the default position must be that we remain skeptical in the absence of evidence, since the most evidence we have for hatsumi's claims are the words of his now deceased teacher we can safely assume that IF hatsumi is legit, he cant prove it.

[@Creationsofmyown]

@23mavcat "I find it laughable the idea that bujinkan is not a REAL martial art. " and so would i if anyone were to say that to me... i never said any such thing, i SAID that it isn't ninjutsu... it IS an art that makes claims that are fraudulent, and other claims that are simply unproven, despite the only proof being purported to sit in the hands of hatsumi, who will tell his students " anyone can come and see" but changes his mind when people ask him.... bjk= business now... sadly

[@Arteanor]

@ZhaoZilong184 "I see...Shoto Tanemura. Another Genbukan advocate." no, quite the contrary,.. i just use this particular quote because tanemura has no reason to lie... he relies on the 'ninpo' image created by takamatsu just as much as hatsumi.... " That explains everything. I don't think this discussion need continue any further.." right, because i showed someone with no benefit to lie, and a detriment as he must admit illegitimacy of his own schools... its proof they're both bogus.

[@Creationsofmyown]

i dont see how speaking the truth can be negative... personally(and if you read my comments you know this) i like the bujinkan... i actually think its a pretty interesting system.,.. but it most certainly isnt ninjutsu... a little research (or if your lazy watch the shinobi soldiers series here on YT) will turn up some very interesting history on ninjutsu...

[@chucknorrispranks]

do you not know the hira no kamae moto gata? because thats a much better application...lol

[@Bronnenheim]

@Arteanor Caged did answer you, you're just too stubborn to see the point. There's a reason the secrets of Ninjutsu aren't taught to everyone that wants to learn how to be a stereotypical "kabuki" ninja, which is exactly what you are describing.

[@Creationsofmyown]

so you are following cuz you feel like it? as opposed to because someone else does? how about not following at all... how about actually learning from reliable sources and seeing how what you are claiming checks out... it appears your understanding of japan during the feudal area, the transmission of ryu, and the nature of ninjutsu are all rather warped...

[@OkamiNinja7]

Soke doesn't teach ninjutsu much anymore. If you've seen old video clips and demos, you'd see a lot more stealth and what not. Now a days, it's just taijutsu and weaponry, that's it. To still call the Bujinkan "ninjutsu" is kinda stupid as what we do is taijutsu and weaponry, NOT ninjutsu, that is the truth. Whether or not if several of the ryuha have direct shinobi lineage, I dunno. But what I do know is that it's no longer called ninjutsu, and rightfully so as ninjutsu is no longer taught.

[@Arteanor]

@brianxsmallwood Antony Cummins is the creator of the Shinobi Soldiers Series, and author of the book Shinobi Soldiers, he has 10 years in the bujinkan,,, you repeatedly use forms of fallacious logic to make your arguments. you continually assert that your organization has ninjutsu as part of its curriculum but all you teach is budo, where is the ninjutsu?

[@brianxsmallwood]

@brianxsmallwood @brianxsmallwood (part5) There is nothing wrong with plugging your book or DVD's, as you have been on all the Bujinkan, Jinenkan, Genbukan video's comments section. But, being disrespectful to people who didn't ask for is uncalled for. How about this, we can have an open debate on BULLSHIDO where both of our view points can be scrutinized and put to the test. There, we will have more room to type instead of 400 characters that make it difficult to debate.

[@Tayfun59]

Li desu ne

[@Creationsofmyown]

@brianxsmallwood do me a favor please, look up: begging the question. repeated fallacious logic is infuriating... i consider it extremely disrespectful. who were u saying is rude? some research on the guy: Antony Cummins. what research would that be? you are ASSUMING that hatsumi teaches these things... answers: trained in buj, nope, irrelevant hatsumi's books, a few. i dont own any. lineage, if your asking if i have checked the records in japan myself, then no.

[@Arteanor]

@ZhaoZilong184 "And once again, you didn't PROVE a damn thing. " uh... how do you figure? how is TANEMURA saying togakure ryu is not what takamatsu used to call his skills, NOT evidence of him creating togakure ryu? "You just spouted off a bunch of crap that YOU claim is true" uh... i showed citations... no longer about MY claim... take it up with Kukishin ryu and Tanemura. i think it is pretty pathetic that hatsumi is so afraid to admit there is no ninjutsu, that he keeps the lie going.

[@caytman]

pooky finger x3 haha.

[@brianxsmallwood]

@brianxsmallwood (part6) And again, I hope I've got my point across about Debate Etiquette. I'll start a thread called"Bujinkan Ninjitsu vs Shinobi Soldiers" and we can debate on BULLSHIDO (dot) com where we can have more room to present our positions.

[@Arteanor]

@brianxsmallwood i think you miss what this discussion was about then... in judging whether takamatsu-den ninpo arts are authentically ninjutsu, the last thing that we need to have information on is the techniques... consider this for me... there is no evidence for the claim of ninjutsu being a martial art. we DO have info on historical shinobi... maybe you should start there... thats why i recommended shinobi soldiers.

[@Arteanor]

@brianxsmallwood you named 3 schools from the SAME root, which has already been exposed to not have any historical relevance.... there is NO evidence that any form of taijutsu was created by shinobi. strict scroll interpretation shows that ninjutsu wasnt even a martial art... did you miss that when you read the bansenshukai? the ninpiden? the shoninki? authentic ninpo-taijutsu is an oxymoron. how about proving takamatsu's claims to ninjutsu... thats a good start, can you manage that?

[@Arteanor]

@MrDontstareitsrude so you still think this crap is ninjutsu??? really, dude, i wanna know why. why do you believe that he knows ninjutsu when he doesnt teach any of the things that ninjutsu contains, and teaches tonnes of stuff that isnt part of ninjutsu AS ninjutsu... when takamatsu changed the name of the school he was teaching WHILE teaching it to hatsumi... to a name of someone who HE SAYS lived 800 years ago... and changed the lineage... from kukishin to ficitonal shinryuken????

[@OkamiNinja7]

Thank you very much. I don't know if the ninjutsu ryuha are legit or not, because yes, it is highly questionable, to say otherwise makes one look stupid. But that's why I say that it can't be called ninjutsu, as that's not what is taught. To be honest, I have heard both sides of the fence and both have given strong points. Historians such as Yumio Nawa and Okuse say he's legit, while koryu bujutsu schools have said otherwise. I think we can all agree, it still should NOT be called ninjutsu.

[@Arteanor]

@mumeisha if you want to talk about lineages, buffonmusa is the one to go to, but you better be good on your kanji. ill be sending him here.... duno if he'll come. you seem to find it odd that we don't believe him... he was a successful martial artist, who up and left kukishen ryu after they wouldn't let him create a ninpo ryu, and then tells the story of "before i did all those OTHER martial arts you know me for..." im not saying he wasn't good, just that he was full of shit. srry bro.

[@Arteanor]

@RhadeConstantine its funny though... it appears while you have been busy slagging off on antony ... he went and put his team on finding positive evidence for the existence of pieces of the togakure story, instead of taking it on faith.... interestingly enough... Nojiri has turned up evidence that togakure is not ninjutsu, but infact a part of Takeda ryu, a multi-bujutsu school like TSKSR, encompassing parts of an ambush ryu. which means your history is bogus, but explains everything. hm,,,

[@Creationsofmyown]

uh,.,,, no dan is a rank used in sport arts... no kobudo ryu uses the dan/kyu system... the first person to use the dan system for a martial sport, was the creator of judo in 1882. true koryu use the menkyo system.

[@crimsomwolf]

lol wasting time trying to explain budo to someone who has not experienced or had the wrong experience is futile. All i know is soke's incredible!

[@Arteanor]

@brianxsmallwood you are a student of bujinkan, there is no ninjutsu there. it CLAIMS 3/9 which is half now? you need to check your math. beware of the bujinkan, they are by definition fraudulent... there is NO evidence for takamatsu' (and his student hatsumi's) claims to ninjutsu, beyond them both saying-so. further, there is NO evidence that ninjutsu, IS or INCLUDES any MA, budo, fighting styles, combat techniques, whatever u want to call it it just IS NOT part of NINJUTSU flawed premise

[@Creationsofmyown]

"the different veiws on ninjutsu is because Ninjutsu was many different arts." no, it isn't. its because: 'The name Ninjutsu today isn't actually Ninjutsu anyways.' "There was no fighting arts in Ninjutsu in the begining." there is no beginning for this school, it hasn't shown that it HAS ninjutsu, you can't just append martial arts to an art you don't know, and say you know that art.... unless you want to be laughed at, sort of like hatsumi is. " Once some of the first Ninja..." Citation??

[@michaelcarvalho4834]

It seems like you have a stereotypical view of what "ninja" is. No one said that the techniques shown in this video are from Ninjutsu. You're guessing that. Hastumi is founder of an organization (or martial system) called Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. He is heir to 9 schools that originated in the Japanese feudal period. There are records and documents that prove this. Just have a little patience and research. There is an official record of the traditional Japanese Koryu schools. The Bujinkan schools are cited in this document. Takamatsu Toshitsugu was the one who transmitted the school scrolls to Hatsumi. He was arguably considered (admittedly by the government of Japan) a living "ninja" and acted with espionage tactics in World War II. Of these 9 schools, only 3 are considered Ninpo (or as you prefer to call, "ninjutsu.") Those cited in the video are Gikan Ryu Koppojutsu, Kumogakure Ryu Ninpo and Gyokushin Ryu Ninjutsu. Gikan Ryu is not a ninpo, but a samurai school. Anyway, in the video, at any moment Hatsumi claims to be showing "ninjutsu" in its entirety or historical context. But he is showing applications based on the teachings of the 3 schools cited in the video. Only that. In addition, in the 3 ninpo schools (if not clear) does not include Gikan Ryu, who is of samurai origin. It would be the other 2 and, adding, the school Togakure Ryu Ninpo, which is not shown in the video. Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu - the system organized by Hatsumi - is not (and never was) exclusively "Ninjutsu". People who think this are only those who are not practicing or who know the organization minimally. Bujinkan is only more focused on Ninjutsu, and uses more of it to do his marketing (which is no problem at all since they are not lying about teaching Ninpo). The school that "sold" the image of Bujinkan as "Ninjutsu" is, mainly, the Togakure Ryu. The Ninja Jyraia series was developed as a marketing strategy to attract students to Bujinkan. They use referrals from schools, using even the same names, the same training outfits. The actors in this series are members of Bujinkan. If you want to be a hater and stay in your unbelief without foundation, feel at ease. I'm just going to be sorry. But I still leave the tip: study a little more about it. Do not make affirmations without succinct information. Note: the video does not really prove that the 3 schools are ninjutsu. To know this, you first have to know which Bujinkan schools are ninjutsu, then know WHAT ninjutsu is (and it seems to me that you do not know).

[@Mantuitorull]

@@michaelcarvalho4834 A very complex answer, but I bet he's too stupid to understand all of these. Probably he's a MMA fanboy

[@muskwaman500]

I know, some peps should do actually research on ninjas instead of watching the Hollywood ones..

[@Creationsofmyown]

it must be nice to have the mental flexibility and faith to unquestioningly accept everything hatsumi tells you.... the mental gymnastics alone are mind boggling... soke means its your school. menkyo kaiden is reserved for atleast 25 years of training WITH the master... your pitiful attempt to redefine historical terminology to suit your argument is clearly misguided... if you wish to maintain even a shred of integrity i would cut it out.

[@Arteanor]

@brianxsmallwood "I assume nothing" you said this, but do you have any evidence that ninjutsu includes a MA/fighting style/taijutsu component? if you don't, and i know you dont, then you have in fact assumed your own premise is correct, which is precisely what "begging the question" is.. a pity you are wasting my time commenting before getting to video 3 that totally dismantles what you are trying to argue. if you have a link to prove hatsumi's claims i would think you should start there.

[@Creationsofmyown]

uh... WHAT? you clearly dont know much about budo. dodge a sword from behind? thats being swung slowly by hatsumi who is waiting for his studen to dodge.... i hardly deem this to be adequate, its too subjective... no science atalll... the bujinkan is about 1 thing, money why do you think he was declared a national treasure? its for tourism, not for ninjutsu, lookitup "no requirement on knowing all the techniques." really? is that why most buj videos look like larping conventions?

[@jackatube]

@PR3DAT0RY SEAL, CIA, MOSSAD, KGB, or any other special forces and intelligence folks (spies). They are the closest thing to what ninja were and did.