Have You Bought The Wrong Size Bike? | How To Get The Perfect Bike Fit

[@gcn]

What's your most common bike fit issue? 🤔 Let us know in the comment section below! 💬

[@goingtothefifty]

a buddy has long legs, his knees keeps hitting the handle bar. His solution was 165 cranks

[@jamesmckenzie3532]

Hand numbness. Bought a Diverge and that seems to have solved it.

[@jack002tuber]

Last bike I bought the options on frame size was L M S. We used to have cm sizes of like 2 at a time. What happened?

[@twatts4436]

Using canyons online bike size calculator! I've had a good fit on my existing bike for years. Canyon estimate the next size up which has an enormous increase in stack and reach.

[@twatts4436]

​@@jack002tuber depends on the brand. Most still have those increments.

[@dsm1891]

you should get one of your average joe riders in for a bike fit, so Phil can demonstrate common problems people face

[@earnmoreskimore]

That would be good ,and maybe Phil coulds take the marbles out of his mouth.

[@graemeross1998]

​@@brunoderoberto5281depends on manufacturer

[@EllieHowarth]

Even better would be an average Joan.

[@ThePerfectFitSystem]

Our channel has a super helpful product that makes Bike Fitting easy. Check out our Perfect Fit System Saddle Selector ™️, it takes sit-bone measurements via pressure mapping and matches them to the best fitting bike saddle. Check it out on our KZbin channel.

[@janhaanstra2245]

​@@earnmoreskimoreprobably a bad placed microphone. You can hear the difference at 2:55

[@ProfeTa6]

Important note here as a cycling physio myself: You can definetly make changes to the bike to fit you better BUT you can also work on your body to fit the bike better. Flexibility/mobility and core muscle endurance are really important factors for a successful bikefit. Also unless the fit is competely off, small differences won´t be a deal breaker; the human body is adaptable and can deal with variations as long as they aren´t absurd. Trust your body and give it time to adjust before any drastic changes.

[@transkryption]

A cycling, physio OR a cycling-physio ? Or both?

[@600mph_cheap_suicide_drones]

I agree, as my core got stronger and I got more flexible, I did changes to my bike fit for more aero positions, particularly to improve comfort on the drops. My pedaling technique also changed which required me to bring saddle to a more forward position and/or tilted down to keep my butt from being shoved backward against the seat.

[@ProfeTa6]

@@transkryption Both

[@Panagiotis-Skordilis]

best comment

[@MattRose30000]

when I'm not hitting the gym for two weeks, I also start to notice that on the bike. Especially in the lower back and the shoulders.

[@mateuszsobanski203]

About eight years ago I had a professional bike fit with Garry Kirk. I went to Garry with lots of pains - neck, shoulders, wrists, lower back, knees, pins and needles in my feet. After a few hours, buying a new saddle, narrower bar and shorter stem, some other adjustments I was pain free. I could cycle for hours in drops without any pain. I was able to generate more power - FTP “increased” by 80W!!! Last year when considering a new bike I went to see Garry again as my needs and mobility changed. The bike I got is a size 56 cm. ALL manufacturers recommend a 54cm frame with the dimensions they ask for. But none checks how flexible you are, what your goal is, arm length and more. I have a bike that suits me perfectly. I said it many times to my club mates that money spent on bike fit was the best bike related investment ever.

[@downinthebunnyhole]

Exactly what happened to me: recommend 54, lot of pains, switched to 56, end of pains

[@lukewalker1051]

Phil's fit philosophy is spot on...and will summarize what I believe based upon several decades of riding.... - Narrower handlebars are generally more comfortable and faster and yes handlebar width affects reach. Larger bikes....I ride a XL...generally come with too wide a handlebar. - For an aging road cyclist even with longer legs...I am Si's size...shorter cranks are better on multiple levels from hip impingement to pelvis angle on the saddle and ability to rotate the torso down and ride more aero. - Frame size is NOT necessarily tied to body size. I am Si's size and I ride 1 frame size up for more comfort versus more aero. Lance who is 5'9 ish raced on a 58cm frame throughout his career and Si at 6'1" rides a 56. - Endurance geometry...what Phil said again, works best for the 'average' rider and not ex-pros like Si. Pros were pros for a reason. Pros throughout their riding career, rode out of the wind with less steep torso angle than most mortals can tolerate. I could ride Si's bike maybe even without a saddle adjustment but after 20 miles my body would hurt because I am older and less flexible, and I am fit.

[@andyboxish4436]

Any time you have Phil on, it's such a wealth of incredibly valuable information. Thank you GCN and Phil!

[@framue]

I would argue that a 80mm stem on a small or x-small is just one size down from the design size for that frame and therefore a total reasonable bike fitting adjustment.

[@simonmurray9664]

Can highly recommend James Thomas in Richmond - just a legend in bike fitting. Excellent videos on Cade Media too. But manufacturers are at fault here. A client should be able to select bar width, casette, saddle, stem length, crank length BEFORE you buy....all stock items that can be used as the bike is built!!

[@mitchelldonaldson5995]

So I have struggled with my bike recently, I’m 6’2 riding a 59cm frame. Just adjusted my seat and it’s already made a world a difference. I’m excited to make more adjustments now! Thank you Phil and thank you GCN

[@janeblogs324]

Adjusted how...?

[@jack002tuber]

First thing I do on any new bike is to take off a shoe, sit on the bike, pedal backwards with my heel on the spindle. If My leg maxxes out at the bottom, I'm about there. Might need to raise the saddle like 1/2" Done.

[@beltonhogue]

Good for you! I learned to do my own bike fit from information on line and experimentation. If you don't aleady, try doing your own bike work too, you will see that most of it is not as difficult as bike mechanics want to charge lots of money for

[@mitchelldonaldson5995]

@@janeblogs324 so I’ve just moved the seat forward, probably by about 4cm, feels so much different.

[@honestreviewer3283]

Fit is such an individual thing. I'm the same height as you but ride a 56 with a 130mm stem and a high seat post (looks like Si's bike), but I used to race and my body's comfortable that way. I'm guessing your frame is probably a bit too large, but you could be one of those guys with a long torso or long legs and need the extra tube length, like they mention in the video.

[@SuperOrcy]

I just went back to 400mm bars from 440 that came standard on my L frame Merida, and its made a huge difference to my reach. bike feels so much more comfortable now.

[@5amba]

It's really a shame that bike companies sell their bikes with to wide bars. 440 is for nearly all humans to wide.

[@stinkyfungus]

​@5amba I'm not that big...but I ride a 46 enve ses on my 56 emonda and a 46 (48 center to center at the hoods) ritchey venturemax on my custom sized ti monstercross bike

[@5amba]

@@stinkyfungus 7/10 men needs 38-40 you are one of the 3 *or you ride a bar to wide 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@benson3086]

@@5amba manufactures do it on purpose so you have to spend extra money on parts. ie a smaller width handle bar. They know what they're doing. they're trying to maximise profits.

[@peteappleby2291]

Same, I switched to 40cm bars from 42cm on a large (58) Trek Domane and it's a world of difference.

[@Afrikakorps68]

Years ago, an UK cycling magazine sent a guy with his bike to 4-5 different bike fitters. Results were surprisingly different with saddle height/seatback, stem length, and handlebar width ranging +/-10mm or more...

[@jack002tuber]

This supports my idea of being your own bike fitter. You know what works for you

[@bikeman123]

Not surprising. A combination of the psychology of each bike fitter wanting to make a change to show they've done something for their money and the fact that everyone has different levels of flexibility so what works for one won't work for another. Bike fits are a bit like new bits of kit, no one ever admits to wasting their money. There's plenty of information out there so there's not much you can't do yourself.

[@wilfdarr]

I really don't care what the numbers say, the only person who's going to know where I'm flexible and where I'm comfortable is me. Play optometrist (number one, or number 2...) for a few hours on a Saturday and you'll figure it out!

[@beltonhogue]

​@@bikeman123 Man. You said that perfect. This has also been my opinion. It has taken me exactly 1 year since I started riding to get my fit to where I am happy today. I could have paid for a fit, but for me, I wanted to learn how to do my own fit. I see it as part of the learning process of the bike in general, and not about saving money. Throughout the entire year, my fit changed because my body kept changing from riding. Can you imagine how many fits I would had to have? Now that my body is better prepared, I won't be doing anymore adjustments! One more note....sometimes articles have the correct Information. I read somewhere that for a person 5'11, that is the only height that has a suggested known crank length, which is 172.5mm. I wanted to try 165's (to see about opening up the hip) which were good, until I tried to ride out of the saddle on a super steep hill. I went back to 172.5, and raised the seat to compensate. So I say when looking at Information, really examine the source, which is another problem with finding a bike fitter. How many really know exactly what they are doing, and your body tells you what Is right or wrong anyway by experimenting, being careful not to injure yourself while doing so.

[@beltonhogue]

​@@jack002tuber exactly.

[@ashleyhouse9690]

I've said this before on previous bike fit videos but the biggest problem is the bike manufacturers themselves. The recommended size for a lot of people based on height and/or inseam is generally wrong and the bike will then also be supplied with the wrong size stem, handlebars and crank to match some arbitrary average figure. I would never buy another bike off the shelf now as I have to replace so many parts it just makes more sense to buy the right size frame from the start and build it up from there.

[@ronitdebnath]

I reference a 525 (520-530) effective top tube or so. I never go off sizing charts. Because not all of them recommend the same sized (in terms of objective metrics like stack reach seat tube angle) bike for the same height, so what is that worth even?

[@bradleyhorton4949]

Completely agree with this...I used to just buy the frame and build up...I've bought a bike off the shelf and I'm replacing items...ridiculous.

[@fen2453]

66 inches, 30in inseam. Trek says I'm a 52. But their 52s minimum seat height is longer than my inseam 😅

[@Soraviel]

I'm 6 ft 0 inches and also have a 59 frame.and what I did in the beginning is made sure my saddle height is adjusted correctly in order for me to have a comfortable experience. I've not had any awkward issues for months.

[@MattRose30000]

I'm also 6 feet with fairly high inseam and size 11.5 shoes (which I think is often overlooked as a factor) and I'm a little put off by the comments saying that 59 is too large. Though I'm riding a 58 endurance bike for two years now with a couple of 200km rides under my belt and didn't notice any real issues other than numb toes, which I fixed with new shoes and moving back the cleats.

[@frankjohnson8750]

I'm 60 years old now. Back in 2017 I bought the last 2015 Masi Gran Coursa on the showroom floor at Chainwheel Drive bicycle shop in Clearwater Florida. At the top of the down tube is a sticker that says 59. I test rode the bike 3 times over a month, thinking it was perhaps a bit short along the top tube. The price was so great that I bought it anyway. I set the seat back a little bit and as I've ridden it, I've come to the conclusion that it's pretty much perfect for me. I've never been close to professional as a cyclist, this is the first 'go-fast' bike I've ever owned. My goal when shopping for such a bike was to get one worthy of, at least, a Shimano 105 set, and thats what this one came with. The rims it came with were Mercury and at the 11th month on a 12 month warranty those rims were cracking, and the spokes were pulling through. Masi were very kind to replace the wheels with DT Swiss 460s and they are awesome. Much stiffer and definitely stronger. I don't know how I could be happier with this purchase. I absolutely love it 😀. I just wish I had this bike when I was 19. A nearly $1400 bike for $800 with a Shimano 105 set and a bike thats definitely worthy, in my humble opinion. MAYBE one day I upgraded to Ultegra. But I'm not really trying to eek out a couple more mph without sponsorship 🤣 Excellent bike. I dont really blame Masi or Murcury for the first pair of wheels. They had fewer spokes and were probably more for a few races than to go as many miles as I did. The DT Swiss are very nice 👌, strong and stiff. At about 6 feet tall and ~200 lbs this bike is great 👍. FUN times and fitness control 😀 Oh by the way with the 52 tooth chain ring my record top speed is 48mph 😃. I tried like heck to get 50mph but my legs can't pedal any faster and maybe a 54 tooth chain ring would be a bit much for an / this amateur 🤔 😅 Great 👍 vid. Thanks for the post.

[@mikeshelton4466]

I purchased a bike from an online only manufacturer. I measured my old bike and compared it with the new bike specs and purchased based on that. When I got the bike delivered, I set the saddle height and lowered the bars 10mm. I've been very comfortable for 3 years now.

[@markjthomson]

Great summary. So many people want to change their saddle when it's the height that is the issue... among other complaints. understanding how to fit is really useful.

[@peteappleby2291]

9 times out of 10 the saddle is not the issue, but a problem elsewhere. Could be seat too high or setback wrongly (very common), cleats set wrongly, reach too long or low. People blame the saddle when it's rarely the issue.

[@jordan1991r]

As a relatively new cyclist, cycling solo. It’s always been hard to tell if my fit is good, bad or anything in between. It can be hard to justify a bike fit if you are new to cycling because it’s a decent investment you might think is spent better elsewhere. I’ve never felt a bike has fitted me great, but I used myvelofit recently and done it at home on my turbo and I thought I was starting from a “decent” position and it changed me massively. I feel much better now but I was always moving my saddle lower and lower and my bars up and up and this done the total opposite, saddle up by almost 50mm which seems nuts! But it just worked. I’d have never got to that position myself

[@cameron9832]

I'm in between L and XL. I'm 6'1" with long legs. Currently, I ride a 58cm road bike, a 20.5" Mountain bike. My road bike fit seems fine but I could probably make a 56cm work. The mountain bike fit is more challenging. I have a Surly Karate Monkey with 27" wheels and a Scott Scale 970 with 29" wheels. Both are XL/20" frame sizes. I don't have as much top tube clearance as I'd like--less than 1/2 inch--but the L/18" frame size felt too bunched up and I'd have to raise the seatpost almost to max to get my leg extended. I guess I could've put a longer stem on but the XL/20" fits fine minus the lack of clearance

[@fredmcgough748]

I appreciate the input about bar width. What really help Simon's video about making your bike more comfortable and Emma's video for shorter riders. Thanks for the video.

[@KeithCollyer]

Stem length - my Specialized Diverge was already the most comfortable bike I have ever ridden, but a bike fit recommended changing the stem from 80mm as standard to 100mm and the difference is massive.

[@dorianblue4229]

That's cool, if I may second that, from Italy but after a good few years in the Uk back then, I ride a now legendary 'cousin' to the Diverge, the AWOL, and it feels like sliding on a sofa, but sliding quite fast for a steel workhorse that is. I was working in a seaside town on the Riviera and l got a second cheaper bike, loving British ones I got shipped a very typical tourer, a Roux Etape 150. Very similar geometries but one is 61cm, the latter is 58. I adjusted stem and bar sizes, it's so interesting how (little though) each bike feels. Both awesome in their own way. Just for the record... Cheers

[@arlandmacasieb2113]

The simplest solution is to see a bikefitter with a fitting machine. You come up with an ideal position and then check the geometry charts to see which models and sizes match best according to frame stack and reach as well as standover. I see it in about 50% off my fits where riders are on the wrong machine for their body type and ability.

[@m.k.4343]

Let me guess: most of the people that think they want a race bike, actually want an endurance bike?

[@s1alker564]

Endurance bikes are pretty mundane to ride though.

[@beltonhogue]

​@@s1alker564 why do you say that they are mundane, out of curiosity?

[@sbccbc7471]

@@m.k.4343 For some customers, yes. Their spinal health doesn't match their ego.

[@janwillemkuilenburg7561]

Very right. My legs are proportionally much too long in relation to my torso. I had to get a bigger frame (caad12) with a top tube that was too long for my reach. I swapped the standard stem for a 60 mm, together with a more narrow handlebar and this solved the issue. In contrast to what many people say, I have no steering issues whatsoever, the bike is not too nervous.

[@ashleyhouse9690]

@Jan Willem Kullenburg - I'm in the same position as you but according to the bit fit I have had you have gone down completely the wrong route. You need a smaller frame with a shorter top tube to match your shorter upper body. Longer legs are accommodated by longer seat post. Although you assert otherwise a 60mm stem is way too short. I agree with Phil Burt that if you need shorter than 90mm then you are on too big a frame.

[@janwillemkuilenburg7561]

@@ashleyhouse9690 With a smaller frame my seatpost became too long. I am happy with my bike as it is, ride qualities are incredible and I have never had any injuries.

[@stevek8829]

The short stem can make you twitchy when you do a sprint. You have to watch shaking the handlebars. It's not like the riding geometry changes, just how your input to it changes.

[@glendahunt8013]

Yeeeeeeesssssss! I almost bought a bike last week from a friend that is a Medium. My current bike is an Extra Small because I'm short short. I could ride the Medium, it was beautiful, a great deal -- but it felt unstable, I couldn't control it and the seat post was non-existent. This video is hella helpful. Thanks!

[@obikedog]

I would highly recommend a first-time buyer research geometry and their fit before walking into a LBS to buy (or going online.) A first-time buyer is likely to buy from a shop they can try out bikes. This can be a problem for two reasons: 1) their newness to riding means flexibility hasn't been developed and 2) unless they are a median size the bike shop will try to unload what they have instead of the correct size. From my survey of my LBS I find short people like me, are likely to be sold a bike larger than they need. They stock nothing smaller than medium frames and have lots of large and XLs. When I bought my first race bike long ago, the dealer had medium, 54" frames and tried to convince me that was my size even though I had reservations after sitting on it. I ended up bringing it back a few days later and forcing them to source me a 50" (this was back when seat tube length was the measure and comparable between bikes.)

[@rockcycle824]

As a short person, easily the biggest improvements in comfort on the bike have been 1) smaller handlebar width and 2) shorter crank length. It seems that so many stock bikes come with the same bar width and crank length from XXS Frames to Medium frames, despite the fact that the riders will have significantly different bodies.

[@stuvademakaroner9607]

Very much this. Manufacturers seem to ignore these parameters, even though they make a huge difference in comfort and endurance

[@a1white]

Good point on handlebar width. We seem obsessed about going as aero as possible so as narrow as possible. Handlebar width should be governed by the width of the shoulders.

[@wearejames1]

Yes, I seem to recall a few years ago your ideal handlebar width was related to the width of your shoulders, as opposed to these days, narrow is more aero and faster...

[@peteappleby2291]

Great point about the bars often being too wide. I'm hearing more and mor from bike fitters that it's very common for bikes to come with bars that are too wide. Across many different brands.

[@beltonhogue]

Something I learned of value....know your saddle. Some saddles (SELLE SMP Triathalon) are designed in a way that the back of the saddle is raised to where it looks as if it is higher than the front due to the padding in the back, but is designed that way so that when you sit your bones on it, you sit evenly, and the cut-out relieves pressure and has a short and curved nose for rolling your hips forward dropping down into the drops. When off of the bike, the nose looks like it is angled upwards, which is the correct way with this saddle. You will find this out because if you position it using a leveler on the saddle back edge to front tip, your body wants to slide forward because of the back end padding! So you have to angle it a little upwards.

[@tonypowers123]

100% accurate !

[@user-ny3fi3ws1u]

Watched the video, moved the seat on the stationary bike and WOW. Thanks!

[@emmabird9745]

Hi Si and Phil. Thanks Phil for another educating video. Your chats are great. A few years ago now, I was having trouble with my shoulders forever aching. It felt like I had my hands apart on the 40cm bars. I got a 36cm bar and everything got so much better. It is unfortunate that the manufacturers are so reluctant to cater for smaller or less muscular riders. There are so few 36cm bars available. Perhaps that points at a man-centric industry.

[@mofomartianp]

The bicycle was invented by a man afterall... but I'm a man and I use a 38cm, and will probably go down to a size 36.

[@bertsimpsan]

Oh bore off karen

[@rokker333]

Good man. After switching to a new bike last August had exactly the issues with setback and handlebar width. Took me some time to figure out. Even tough Stack and Reach in bike geometry was similar, only slightly more sportive, had massive lower back pain with the new bike.

[@dblissmn]

I started off with my current bike in 2007 with a 90mm stem, inverted. I'm glad the bike shop did this, because subsequent improvements in lower back flexibility despite some degeneration that was spotted on MRI have left me with a 110mm stem the right way up in combination with slightly greater seat height.

[@sinodraagi]

The problem for me as a short rider is that most small road bikes come with 170mm cranks and 40 cm bars. My gravel bike came with 165mm cranks and 38 cm bars. Same frame size and manufacturer as my road bike. The gravel bike fits me way better and I feel I get a lot more power through the pedals. Of course the geometry is different, but still.

[@600mph_cheap_suicide_drones]

They probably ran out of stock on shorter cranks. I also prefer shorter cranks. While calculators tell me I should get 170mm crank and I have average leg proportions, my highest average speeds, unbeatable PRs, and one KOM was all done on a 150mm crank on a kid's bike. It's hard to find these, especially if you're on a tight budget looking for cheaper options. I found a few cheap 150mm cranks made for kid's bikes but unsure if they can be installed on an adult gravel bike.

[@Chris_Rides_Bikes]

just curious, how short? I just got a groupset with 170mm cranks and can't wait to try them

[@sinodraagi]

@@Chris_Rides_Bikes 170 cm ~ 5’7

[@ShawnIsBatman]

Bike vendors are certainly complicating things for cyclists with the trend towards the integrated/proprietary bar & stem combinations. I experienced this with my Pinarello after a bike fit when I wanted to change my stem length. I was limited to stem choices exclusively from the vendor or to go with an integrated bar/stem combo, again, exclusively from the vendor (and very expensive). Great video!

[@238949]

Great to see Phill again, thanks for all the helpful advice, if GCN and Katie K both trust him then so should we :)

[@Whitehawkvisionfilms]

I got to 6 min and realized I couldn't understand anything he said, so started over with closed captioning on ;-) The thing about setting up a Bike-Fit is I understand all the variables, but I have never understood the "Order of Priority" and knowing that you start at saddle height and fore and aft was VERY helpful to confirm that! I would like to see a VERY detailed video about the differences in power/comfort/kinesthetics of saddle height and its fore and aft so we know the most desirable math and then what lose with the compromises.

[@johnstrac]

A mate of mine needs a bike fit as his bike's always half a wheel longer than anyone else's !

[@SergioCristancho]

7:18 ... recalling Si crocket bike wide 42 or 44 size handlebar... I went that way ... and well I am glad to take a bike fit and have my 40 size now

[@davidthomas9079]

Chapeau team, amazing effort. You guy`s passed me in Porte Pollensa that morning and you guys was motoring. Respect👊😀

[@liamm8992]

I was definitely happy I got some neutral measurements before buying some of my more recent bikes. The problem I discovered was that being short, with short legs and a long torso, most manufacturers didn't make a frame small enough whilst also long enough for me!

[@mikesiemens4145]

I'm the opposite. All legs, no torso. I feel your pain. For me it's tall enough while also being shorter in length.

[@alan_davis]

You can normally jump on something very racy if you are short legged, as their stretched out position is helpful for you. If you have long legs, short torso then that's harder... gravel frame possibly

[@JamesBrown-qt2yr]

Love Phil Burt, conveys his knowledge without being patronising. I'd have him do a fit for me before I bought a bus pass!

[@gauguin007]

All these formulas for bike fitting are interesting, but in the end, I just make adjustments to the bike until it’s comfortable. I’m 6 foot three, and I recently bought a 60 cm Cannondale. I added a new seat, 40 cm handlebars and… an 80 mm inverted, stem! The bike is now very comfortable on the hoods and on the drops.

[@johannpretorius1620]

Got my copy of Phil Burt's book ,Bike Fit 2nd edition, delivered today, just as GCN uploaded this "How to get the perfect bike fit you". 🤣🤣 Now I will double check everything mentioned. 😉

[@yozimerio]

When no one talked about these things, in the late 80s, early 90s, there was a guy in Miami, Nelson Diaz, who talked about high cadence for climbing. When Lance Armstrong started to climb at 90+ rpm, Nelson told me: he's still missing something: his crank length is too long, which makes the circumference longer and the efficiency lower. With shorter crank length you reduce the time during the pedal stroke when the power applied is meaningless, on the top and on the bottom. Nelson experimented with crank lengths down to 152 mm.

[@tomkjrns7698]

20 years ago my bike fit was very different from today. And some massage or a chiropractor may change many a sore back and neck. Allways I bring tools to adjust sadle. And there is one fit that is right for head wind, another for wind from behind, climbing a.s.o.. - riding alone or social, racing or zone2. Where do I spend the most time. It will always be a compromise, I think

[@billkallas1762]

I've gotten so I don't even bother looking at frame sizes anymore. I just look for a frame with a 73 degree seat angle, and a 58cm top tube length (or virtual length) If it has those numbers, I'll know that it will fit, when built up. One of the frames that I ride is listed as a 55.5cm frame (with a severe sloping top tube) another is a size 59cm. Both fit equally well. One thing I learned, the hard way, four decades ago, is to not adjust your reach by moving your saddle back and forth, on the rails.

[@firesurfer]

That would be death for your knees, but you know that.

[@justcheckinm8]

I had a 52cm Merida Ride 4000, picked based on height and some other basic measurements. I had no end of problems with numb hands and 'other bits' and after a fitting check at my LBS, shorter stem, seat slid forward, etc, it was determined I have longer leg:upper body ratio. I replaced it with a 50 cm and was waaay better. It was a PITA when I bought a Trek Emonda SL7 because it has a limit on how high the seat tube can go on the integrated post...which required buying the longer seat tube. Never looked back.

[@whysosalty]

i just find it all confusing, i had a bike fit years ago and they said at 5'10" i should be on a small or medium nothing larger than 54. I ride a 55 or 56 and can sit in it all day but I do get restless hands and sometimes after 60+ miles sore inner thigh. But i used to have a 53/54 giant and felt so cramped on it, developed bad knees after short distance, just felt wrong and i always felt i was sitting bolt upright and look like a adult on a childs bike. So know i tweak my bike myself and only recently been looking at the bars as a place to make improvements. I am a heavy rider as well, 95+KG but fit.

[@dorianblue4229]

Hi, some 5 years ago I bought two bikes in short succession and they were my first decent bikes ever. I'll just mention them here cos they, ehm, 'fit' in your video only partially. One is a graveller (but sort of allaround), Speccy AWOL, size XL/61cm. The other one, for rougher use in town, a classic British tourer, a Roux Etape 150 size 58 (the largest of the three they made). Superrelaxing travel bikes, but also smooth rolling and apt for 150+ km day rides. 1) At times you want to push hard and go fast on them too - so i would love to hear if Phil's considerations apply to gravel bikes as well (he just mentions them here, but I wonder whether he's just really dismiss them as broadly usually good and that'all?) 2) about stems and bars, (am 6'2", 36" inseam) there's one more problem: some heights fit between two sizes on the producers lists. I'm mostly listed as top large of a "large", and first entry of the "XL" sizes too. Which is always bit confusing. I've tried and ditched a few stems before being happy, which was bit frustrating... just by myself, i had to... i can now say i've ridden both for whole days in these 5 years, so it's ok i suppose... however, for various reasons i fit two of those superwide gravel bars which is are so trendy lately... a Funn -G-wide 50 cm on the Roux, and a Walmer bar 60 cm (75 in the drops, lol) on the AWOL. My ahoulders are 46ish cm wide. I fitted a supershort, inverted (-5°) stem with the Walmer.Yeah bit less aero (but not much, of all factors) but i have no pain after rides ajd love the control it gives. It's like a flat bar too in its own way (so wide)... Going to the Alpine winding roads, I don't think I'd feel so safe and in control with the stock 46 bars. And this way (arms spread) they allow me to open my lungs and breathe so deep and easy... Well, it's be cool what Phil (awesome guy, of course) might say about this all... cheers!!

[@zibby10]

Would you size a gravel bike the same way ? As I would think it's more made for comfort than aero ? Struggling to get my gravel bike feeling real comfy.

[@rayF4rio]

Think again. The wear on the bar tape in that spot comes from the hand rotation involved in shifting gears and the type of glove you wear. Some gloves (Assos) have aggressive dots on the contact points which tend to wear the bar tape when hands are rotated while still in contact with the tops of the bars - ie: Shifting, especially mechanical shifting.

[@liammcgough9969]

That video really helped. I need a shorter stem. How much seat post should be exposed? And how much stand over height is recommended? Thanks for the video!

[@PatrickKend]

Im 5'11" and normally ride a size 56. Well recently i found several bikes i liked and i settled on the size 58 because it was actually the most comfortable. The reach didnt feal too long and i didnt feel any back pain or other issues. A fitter told me it wasnt so muth the hight of the bike but it was the comfort you feel in the bikes cockpit. Several people have made it there business to tell me the bike was too big for me. I can fully stand flat footed over the bike with my feet on the ground and it just touches my "man parts" but not uncomfortably. Am i wrong in my love for this bike? Should i even bother listening to these people who think they know whats right for me? Thanks for any help you can provide.

[@evanunruh]

6 foot and ride a 58cm tarmac. I've been told I could go smaller, but I run the bike with the stem slammed and its plenty comfortable for me

[@xceedinsanity]

I'm 5'9'' with a 32'' inseam and I ride a 56 Dogma. I'm comfortable.

[@allisgood.6191]

I appreciate content since I’m new to cycling 👍🏼

[@Max.Greger]

03:58: could you explain that shortly? Which tendency of frame size (shorter or larger) are good for people with longer legs? Thank you :)

[@RootsBassCanada]

The best fitting vid in my opinion. Thanks.

[@2.old4this]

So informative and helpful. Want Phil to fit my bike to me now! If Si’s cycling career takes a wrong turn - he’d be a great bike salesman/fitter. Great show. Can Phil do one on bike position after knee surgery (TKR) Pleeeeeeeaaaaassssseeeee?

[@notmyrealname6272]

Yea I would like that too!!!!!

[@drmitofit2673]

One problem is that manufacturers measuring frame size by seat tube length can vary. The horizontal top tube length is more telling. The bikes that fit me the best, when I put my elbow at the nose of the midrail saddle, my fingertips are at the midlength of the stem. The Egyptians called it a cubit. I can quickly check any bike in the shop for ballpark sizing without even mounting the bike. Where your fingertips meet the stem might vary from mine, though.

[@jonathanellis1842]

Toe overlap is my problem, I am short 168cm tall, but have size 9 UK feet. Any bike within a 375cm reach and sack over 530cm giver or take a few cm and bars 38cm wide 170mm cranks are all in the ball park fit wise. Even if I move my cleats forward it solves nothing and it feels awful (it hurts my ankles), so I just have the cleats in optimal pos and live with it.

[@jack002tuber]

For years I had some overlap on my Cannondale, I never knew it. I never turned the bars that far when riding. But then my overlap was not a lot

[@firesurfer]

Cleat position is directly related to the ball of your foot, and should not be used to adjust the overlap of the wheel.

[@sbccbc7471]

This is more of a problem for smaller riders on smaller frames. Being such a rider myself, any bike I ride will have toe overlap, there's nothing I can do about it.

[@norsangkelsang7939]

I find moving my cleats back and forth will affect the stem length and saddle fore and aft. I think this is overlooked many of the times when considering position. Very few times in the past 40 years have had it dialed in. And when I change shoes... that magic is lost. Have a dynamic system where all the variable can be manipulated real time would be a precious joule. And then get the item to replicate that geometry.

[@JimKJeffries]

Yes I was worried. I so rarely purchase a new frame, the commitment to one ends up being pretty big. Thanks for the video

[@workingguy-OU812]

I both ride a saddle that is forward, AND a short stem. The next smaller size bike would be ridiculous for me.

[@SimVanGyseghem]

Same here. I'm thinking whether a 0 offset seat post would make sense? Going to try a narrower handlebar first since I've got that around the house

[@workingguy-OU812]

@@SimVanGyseghem Yes, me as well. I'm going to order a narrower handlebar for my gravel bike - was going to do that anyway out of aero concerns.

[@ronitdebnath]

In many cases instead of changing stem from 110 to 90mm, use a shorter reach handlebar. It helps. Without destroying the handling.

[@warwickp8055]

What is the difference? They both pull the bars closer to the Headstem

[@alan_davis]

​​@@warwickp8055the shorter bars allow you to not pull in the distance to the top of the bar, which helps the handling in that bar position (only). But in general you are correct, reduced reach bars - while a good thing - don't destroy handling any more or less than a short stem in the more common hand positions.

[@indiebikes]

As someone who sits right in between 54 and 56cm, I go for a 54cm with a couple of spacers under the stem and a little more seat post out. Mainly to make sure the crossbar stand over height isn’t too high. I’ll then run 100mm or 110mm stem and 40cm bars. Good to see that I’ve probably got the fit about right. Damn those short legs from the 70’s though!

[@Foxtrottangoabc]

After researching best cycle position. Saddle and pedal stroke is first priority, once that feels good , only then move onto to the handlebar area .

[@kovar2344]

I recently did the same mistake on the second hand bike i bought. Saddle too far back, had to put a shorter stem on 8cm. Bike felt too twitchy. Move the saddle forward and got a lower 11 cm stem. Massive difference and so much better to ride.

[@Matthew-ez4ze]

In general, most of us men don't want to ride a smaller bike out of ego. I moved down a size on my new BMC and I've never been happier, or rode better and felt great.

[@JesseStarrPhoto]

That's funny because racers tend to ride undersized frames for weight and aero savings

[@Chris_Rides_Bikes]

OK, so here's my question: I'm 5'9" (175cm) with a 30-31" (~77.5cm) inseam, so shorter legs and longer torso.. Phil mentioned that might be a harder fit, can you expound? Also, I'm not that trim at this point and have lost a bit of flexibility at 49 y/o, so NOT a Si.. ;) I'm guessing I want shorter reach (maybe somewhere in the 375mm range) and taller stack? Thanks and love the videos!

[@tiborgagyi4297]

Hi! Can you tell me what frame you chose for the road bike? I want to buy a Kellys ARC 50. My height is 177cm, inseam 80cm. Thank you very much!I'm about between M and L.

[@jeremynelson8926]

Great advice here in the video and comments!

[@88funkymonk]

Brilliant episode! Very informative

[@adambrickley1119]

I seem to have opposite issue, im on a 58 specilised 182csm and 120 stem thst feels too short, just moved saddle forward too! Most people my size on the sworks fb group are on a 56. Dont really understand it, but bike feels pretty comfy, just would like 10mm more reach.

[@royloveday4350]

Really useful thanks.

[@meibing4912]

The most important thing is to start with the right bike frame. Too many step "up" when between two sizes. You can easily make a small frame fit a larger rider - never the opposite. Also, a larger frame is heavier, so bad choice all around.

[@stefankristanto6163]

but too many stem spacer is also looking bad for taller rider

[@meibing4912]

@@stefankristanto6163 not a fan of letting "looks" get in the way of a correct bike fit. YMMV.

[@galenkehler]

Larger frames have less toe overlap, and generally better handling because the company hasn't compromised to try and squeeze 700c wheels.

[@meibing4912]

@@galenkehler 🤣

[@ThisHaloFan]

@@galenkehler Depends what “smaller” means for the rider. If the difference is a 56 or a 54, the geometry is probably not really sacrificing anything to fit 700c wheels. Those are probably the most common sizes for male cyclists. It’s true that for overlap isn’t ideal, but to be honest it’s not really a fit issue and pretty manageable depending on how bad it is. Some toe overlap is quite common with more aggressive geometries. Smaller frames often feel more agile and have lighter handling. I’m happy to accept some spacers if it means not feeling overly stretched out.

[@mbasdinkci]

Should it be shoulder width apart for arms for hybrid bikes as well?

[@jonathanzappala]

Ooh I was hoping for another Ollie Beckingsale. I probably have watched that video more than any other GCN video, including devious ways to beat your mates.

[@yumyumhungry]

It's good to note that some of the gnarlier gravel/drop bar bikes intentionally use a shorter stem and longer top tube combo to try to offset slacker geometry so that it is easier to steer. Stuff like the BMC URS or the Salsa Cutthroat do this and run 70-80mm stems

[@beltonhogue]

It's funny, these "rules of thumb" aren't right for everyone. I have a long tube and put on a 70mm stem, and it was better than the suggested 90 to 110mm because it allowed me to make sharper turns. I didn't experience any "twitchyness" or anything like that, which so many people said would happen on the internet. It just made since to me for my particular bike and how i like to sit on it. Also important to note along with thus, is that I have a excellent quality bike, and it is designed for racing!

[@Fatbutnotflat]

Always loves Si's in-depth stuff

[@anthonyduncalf-uk]

I'm 168cm in height and some size charts say I'm size Small and others say XS or even XXS. I have ridden all sizes and Size Small was the worst as the reach was too long even with a short stem. So you can easily get the wrong size bike by following some bike manufacturers size charts. XS and XXS bikes do have stems shorter than 90mm though and it's perfectly normal. One thing that doesn't get smaller on smaller frames is the wheel size so there's only so small they can make a frame due to toe overlap so a short stem is needed to get the right reach. A 80mm stem on a size Small or bigger bike shows there's something wrong though with the fit.

[@Bodkin_Ye_Pointy]

I have commented before on this but I have finally worked out for myself that my frame size is wrong. I am on an S frame. I finally had a photo taken of me on my bike with the peddle at almost its full height / top of arc. A few degrees off the top of arc my knee is actually in line with my hip and my thigh parallel to the ground. If I could have managed to get the top of the arc my knee would have been slightly above my hip. The reason I don't ride on the drops is I knee myself in the belly. All courtesy of professional bike fitters. Same issue with a Colnago and Giant. The most expensive bikes I ever bought.

[@MrJhockley]

i went smaller crank from 172.5 to 165 to 155 but i found going back up to 172.5 and oval chainrings worked better for my bio mechanics. I have slightly long lower legs than average. My legs and torso are about average for a human although slightly shorter legs than the average pro. On both my bikes I have to add about 2 cm to my q factor and bring the saddle quite forward but feels super comfortable on most saddles. TT fit i'm struggling to crack, seems similar to my road setup but cleats further back and a shorter wider saddle.

[@beltonhogue]

What do you think of the ovals compared to standard?

[@MrJhockley]

@@beltonhogue I love them. I''ve got them on 2 of my bikes. Since installing them my cadence has gone up, i've been been able to dial in my fit more. I can get lower on the front. I do think it's unique to me. Like i mentioned my lower leg length is very similar to my upper leg length. I tried shorter cranks but i loose power. I like the oval rings where i can offset the ovality. The oval ring on my race bike doesn't quite hit the peak on the right part of the stroke but there is only one set of holes. I think i prefer the oval very close to the bottom of the stroke.

[@beltonhogue]

@@MrJhockley interesting. So would you say they are for s specific type of riding or bike? Sounds like they aren't for racing and speed. How about long distance and climbing? Thanks...

[@MrJhockley]

@@beltonhogue i think more for a specific biomechanic. Defo for TT and in the saddle efforts; climbing and crit but i doubt they make any difference to out the saddle efforts.

[@snigs5T5]

I think that the worst part of bike fitting is that spec is fixed. If you need a narrower/wider bar, there's no option to swap. Pay up $$$. Need a different crank length. Pay up $$$. Saddle not right? Pay up $$$. And EVERY bike gets the steerer tube cut, then it goes on the shop floor or is already packed in a box before it left Asia. Shops and online just aren't thoughtful and flexible. It's a PITA...or shoulders, or neck...

[@kimwarner6050]

Completely agree I always have to change my crankset to 160, bars to 360, and a zero setback seatpost. Making all those changes is quite pricey and ridiculous considering the bike is brand new. Last bike I brought a frame and had it built up. It's much cheaper and you get exactly what you want on the bike

[@davemoss6976]

How far you set back your saddle alters how far away the handlebars feel!!!wow that's amazing, who would have thought it?

[@MatthewLenton]

I'm tall and bought a large bike on both the recommendation of Raleigh and the bike shop I bought it from online, but it was just too big. The main problem was that I couldn't even touch the floor with my toes when on the saddle, which was at the lowest level. The handlebars were too far away, and while I could've adjusted those if that was the only issue, the saddle height made it unrideable I then had to go through the rigmarole of packing it back up, sending it back, and waiting for the medium to be shipped. That was a lot better and I probably need to raise the saddle a little as it's just a touch too low. I've not had the chance to ride it yet

[@bradleyhorton4949]

My frustration over 20 years of riding on and off road bikes has been...from trial and error...and bike "fits"...that my body must've been made out of spare parts. Some bodily measure is out of whack...arm length? Or torso?...or? Is there a method to easily measure these and determine where I'm outside the cycling norm??

[@alainbellemare2168]

What about the humidity factor and moon phase

[@gunnars635]

Whick brand/model do you buy when you are 50+, rather new to cycling and struggling with tight hamstrings/stiff back, low shoulder flexibility? Hopefully one of the endurance models will fit, like Cannondale Synapse, Trek Domane or Canyon Endurace. Will an endurance bike be okay for a stiff dude?

[@akirarex]

Specialized Roubaix is known to be an "upright" type design.

[@sbccbc7471]

@@akirarex The Roubaix also has the advantage of reversible stem height adjustment.

[@seattlegrrlie]

I bought a new saddle and after that first ride my shoulders were killing me. Moved it back, back more, and the cockpit is perfection.

[@krishnansrinivasan830]

Very informative :) Thanks 🙏🕊

[@Motorep146]

My next purchase for my ti gravel bike is going to be a straight carbon seatpost. I'm wanting to get more on top of the pedals and feel this will get me what I'm looking for. I've already swapped the Ekar cranks from 172.5 to 165 and that was a noticeable difference. I'd like to know a bit more about handlebar width and stem length when it comes to gravel bikes. What's the advantages or disadvantages of a 42cm/90mm setup or a 40cm/100mm combo? Other than being more aero I can't see the advantage of narrow bars on a gravel bike.

[@beltonhogue]

How tall are you? I have 172.5 cranks and tried 165's. They felt nice because of opening up the hips, but when I went to stand up on a steep incline, I felt like I could not get my legs to get full torque by bringing them all the way around. After that I went back to 172.5. I am 5'11...

[@Motorep146]

@@beltonhogue I'm 5'7" with a 30" inseam. I've been primarily a mtn biker so I'm used to being more vertical in my seated position. I still ride road for training though and I've been able to get my fit dialed on those bikes with no issue. On my gravel bike I want to get farther forward with a 90-100mm stem that I feel will give me the best of both worlds.

[@Bianchioltr1885]

i got a bike fit 3 weeks ago, and the conclusion was that i had the upperbody from someone that is 1.90m and the lower body in terms of lengt of a teenager ( i am 1.65m). so my bike always needed to be adjusted and i could get a 53 one uptill a 57 on and stil fits my measurments... the perfect bike for me would be a bike with the support bar at a down angle so my upper body has the right position.

[@rbonn3880]

Phil rocks! Great video!

[@d_realpacifist1621]

I am 193 cm/inseam 95 I like specialized and I ride tarmac sl6 but it's not absolutely as I would want it to be, it just seems to big, especially considering I am using an 80 mm stem right now. Looks like I need shorter top tube, with enough spacers in the front. I've tried 58cm frame size and it somehow feels better but had low back pain after some time of riding. Have to do bikefit, not sure if it's going to help. I had Trek madone and in size 60 it was better. The best I had was Pinarello dogma f8 59.7 size. Any suggestions?

[@CavenInToTheWorld]

If in between sizes choose the smaller. If you get smaller frame you have more room for adjustment compare to large frame. Learned in it the hard and expensive way. I don't want to have a bike fit since it is expensive in my country. So i bought bikes basing on the info about the inseam so it came out 52. So i even bought bike size 53 because the stack is still manageable but the reach is too much because large bikes comes with long stems. So i learned my bike size fit by buying and trying it on long rides. If there's pain every after the ride then bike size is incorrect. If only i got bike fit at first then i would be buying too much bike and selling those are not fitted. Not considering those extra short stem that i bought just to fit. I remember i bought the bianchi that the person sold me as size 52. When the bike arrives it is size 53. I don't have problems with the height of the bike. But the reach is too much. The stem is 120mm so i changed it to 90mm but still not enough. Exact fit of stem for me is 70mm and finding one is a chore aswell. So i was able to find one tried it and it was fine. I really love it. The ride comfort is very nice. I can ride very long without pain. So i guess my torso is shorter. Now that i was able to get a bike fit my actual bike size should be size 50. So yeah. Better to get a bike fit than spend more. But for me experience taught me more information about different bikes. Taught me things that only experience will teach you. And also most bikes frame now a days doesn't have exact proportion. Unlike the classic which sometime have 52st/52tt or 52st/53tt now bike have 46st/53tt. So you really have to get flexible enough to get comfortable on the bike or else get an endurance or mountain bike which has an upright position.

[@trirakpro]

Great breakdown

[@SonnyDarvish]

On every bike I have to swap to 160 (max 165) cranks and 36 (max 38) handlebars. Depending on supply issue, I might go with the higher number.

[@beltonhogue]

Interesting....how tall are you?

[@Qurmoo]

#askgcn, I know how you can "find" the stack you need, but how does one go about finding it's reach (if no fitting bike available)?

[@FrenchSquareDancer]

I stand 2 meters & 1/2 centimeter (even distribution, that is to say well balanced). Living in France, nobody carries XXL in stock. Many of the XXL give maximum height of 196 or 198 cm. I can't try in advance. I ordered an XL Focus Cayo 12 years ago as it was the best fit I found available at the time. I find it is too short, unstable in downhill winding roads. I'm considering a Canyon Ultimate XXL which is the largest stack/reach/wheelbase combination I've discovered currently available; but impossible to try in advance as they are made to order... any advice?

[@tucniak111]

Canyon allows for returning after trying, so bit of a hassle, but doable. I'm 196 and I'd probably look at Endurace if i were you (XL for me it seems so XXL for you indeed) to get a higher stack and a bit shorter reach :)

[@FlyingPastilla]

I switched to narrow bars (36cm at the hoods, 38 in the drops) a couple months ago yet find I want to go even narrower. The weird part is I'm a 90kg and 195cm tall with pretty broad shoulders. What are the signs it would get too narrow ?

[@Chris_Rides_Bikes]

great question, I'm curious as well!

[@raidaman1]

Most bikes come with bars that are too wide. In addition to stem length and angle, bars, cranks and saddle (contact points) adjustments are the most basic changes one should always make on every bike purchase.

[@robknight9064]

This is very interesting and makes sense. However, I recently bought a Ridley Kanzo gravel bike online in M and it fits more like a L, so I should have bought a S or maybe even an XS. 2 problems I can't fix are stand-over height and seatpost insertion - I've spent way too much money on handlebars, posts, stems ,etc and it still feels wrong, now I feel like I'm crouching on the bike. Is there any point trying to make the bike fit me in that situation? I've thought about going smaller with the cranks, but ultimately I feel like I'm throwing money at a problem which I can't solve. I just had a bike fit on my roadie and I can't replicate the measurements as it is.

[@XOR-Ale]

Same here my friend 😢