Hazbin Hotel Is Like Your Granddad Telling You A Story

[@giulizpaviz6381]

This show has the same problem of the other "Adult cartoons" like Brickleberry: it's for adults but in the end is for teenagers who just got the confidence to say "fuck" more often

[@superstarultra28]

Give Brickleberry some credit. At least it had jokes that weren't just swearing and sex humor.

[@giulizpaviz6381]

@@superstarultra28 you mean also the gross humor?

[@Elenrai]

@@giulizpaviz6381 I will take the bait n bite. Yes! The "Gross" humor was far less disgusting than the average morning at a nursing home! S' a matter of life experience, and near humans lack that post SOME

[@redd-qh4xn]

Brickleberry made me laugh every episode....

[@TerryBradstreet]

Amazon advertises this as "Heaven and Hell like you've never seen it before" except Hollywood has been CONSTANTLY showing us a Heaven and Hell exactly like this for decades.

[@grinningtiki220]

They meant in an eye bleeding art style and nauseating color palette. Haven't seen that before.

[@grinningtiki220]

@CipherRage-tp5ql Its not that its vibrant per se, so much as a casual disregard for color theory. On top of that the color palette is deliberately chosen to appeal to a woman's eyes.

[@avivastudios2311]

​@CipherRage-tp5ql 1:48 This frame here is just painfully bad. Like Charlie is wearing a cherry red suit, sitting on a red couch, that's in front of a red wall. What were they thinking?!

[@SomeYouTubeTraveler]

They honestly just created their own universe, then slapped the names "Heaven" and "Hell" on them because they really, really hate Christianity and Christians themselves. Specifically, white Christian males in The Patriarchy, who, _ahem..._ [checks notes] _...hate the gay._ The Heaven and Hell of Hazbin Hotel, Bayonetta, Darksiders, etc... they're more like the cosmology of D&D or the Greek pantheon than anything resembling actual Christianity. Their entire biased perception of Christianity is a weird amalgamation of abusive parents, grifting televangelists, and obscene and blatantly hypocritical false believers in positions of power like Donald Trump. This rambling, uncreative hatred born of bias is just the same lazy commentary we've heard a hundred times. "Look! The angels are worse than the demons! Aren't I a genius?!?"

[@ARStudios2000]

Forget Hollywood, the internet has heavily been doing it for the better part of a decade now.

[@Nowhereman10]

I applaud VivziePop for finally getting her story to be picked up as a series. The problem is, from what I've seen so far, and this critique confirms, she's like the dog that finally caught the car and now doesn't quite know what to do with it.

[@BetamaxFlippy]

Dude we have 4 episodes as of now, just chill already.

[@CorwinTheOneAndOnly]

4 of 8. We are into ACT II of this 8 episode series by now. @@BetamaxFlippy

[@metazoxan2]

@@BetamaxFlippy No we had way more than just 4 with Helluva boss and it's not looking like Hasbin Hotel's current episodes are an improvement on the degrading story quality. It's the same issues dragging that show down.

[@BetamaxFlippy]

@@metazoxan2 I don't think you see it man

[@minespatch]

Just because you like it doesn't mean it's great.@@BetamaxFlippy

[@mrbigglezworth42]

I think I heard it best from 4chan of all places where Helluva Boss is a show where it feels like a fanfiction writer took over and the original premise of the show got put on the back burner for melodrama. After seeing the show, that is definitely an accurate description.

[@sassyghost_8]

A very accurate description. It’s what’s making me less of a fan than I was when everything first started and there was hope for a quality story but the final product just disappoints. Both shows have no singular focus for more than a few minutes then it jumps to something with a totally different tone. After learning of the abuse that Angel suffers under Val, Charlie’s response is to apologize like a toddler who just got caught doing something they shouldn’t instead of having an adult heart to heart that could have developed both characters and their relationship into something with actual depth but they opted for Charlie groveling for “comedy.”

[@Jdudec367]

It really doesn`t feel like that at all.

[@Jdudec367]

@@sassyghost_8 I mean there still is a quality story, how does it disappoint? Nah they both have a clear focus. No she has a adult heart to heart, and they do develop together and their relationship into something with depth. Charlie didn`t grovel for comedy.

[@namkia205]

And it's sad it had so much potential it could have been a commentary but Vivzie isn't daring enough she's worried about criticism too much but that's kind of the fault of dying media literacy

[@lephinor2458]

So the show has what I call autism/ADHD writing. Can't keep a single simple premise.

[@TheHej2]

From hero to zero, just because you have money doesn't mean you will be good

[@DRYeisleysCreations]

Case in point: Zack Snyder.

[@chrisw7047]

That's basically the entirety of YT's upper echelons these days.

[@Rurik_Luci]

The stories my grandfather has been telling me recently were about Vietnam. I don't think this show can compete with those.

[@DaMaster012]

My great uncle Denis served in Vietnam, and I didn't even know until I was in my twenties, and had to be told about it by other extended blood relatives; he was that averse to talking about it.

[@crayonchomper1180]

Some of the "best" stories are War stories

[@Bam_Bizzler]

​@@DaMaster012was he a menace?

[@yalovoyhznepomny]

Ironically with video name

[@jamesthelamenter5464]

Remember that someone paid 50k for a self insert into this universe.

[@APsychicMonkey]

Fatherless behavior.

[@marlyqxi2615]

@@APsychicMonkeyVerbalase is fatherless? Lol thats a weird comment unless I took it wrong

[@ThanosDestroyeryearsago]

@@APsychicMonkey He also is a husband and a father. Do what you will with that info

[@Lauren007E]

What episode was that.

[@dollarsignmexican]

​@@Lauren007E it's a cringe pseudo-pornographic animation he paid 50k for.

[@mmmproductions1247]

I really want to like HelluvaBoss and Hazbin Hotel, but Vivziepop can only write two plot lines. -Dealing with exes or toxic relationships -Parental, usually Daddy issues.

[@frug5629]

Also, the comedy needs more variety and restraint. It's either sexual, drugs, violence, or 'lul so random' tier shit.

[@drihab-h6g]

write what you know as they say

[@Chris-we7hh]

I mean, thats the only issues these pampered progressive freaks experienced in life so....

[@VueiyVisarelli]

It's like that meme: "No member of the LGBT+ has all five of the following. One: good math skills..." _everyone passes_ "Two: a good relationship with their dad--" _everyone gives up_

[@Alamandorious]

Helluva boss is actually toned back a bit compared to this one. I mean, you are right, but it IS toned back a bit.

[@curtisbrown547]

Its almost like having trauma and psychological problems doesn't make you a good story writer.. even when exploring those issues... Everything is an allegory for her own self, or perspective and what we are getting is vizie basically just airing her problems in some kind of self aggrandizing public therapy done through the medium of 2d animation. She's creating the show *she* thinks is entertaining. Its sad to see someone basically just bleed in public like this, but that is basically what is happening.

[@shadeofthenight8988]

If that’s the case maybe that’s why she has had a bad track record of not taking criticism well. People don’t like it when others criticize something you care about normally but it’s worse when the work is based so much off of yourself criticism towards it ends up being criticism of yourself

[@DrAngelKins]

​@shadeofthenight8988 that's why I don't recommend writing about yourself. Your can't change yourself

[@iainmuir6116]

Shows like this are meant for people with Peter Pan Syndrome. 30 years old ex tumblrites who never stopped watching spongebob or MLP and thought to themselves, wouldn't this obvious piece of children's entertainment be better if it included debased vulgarity. Shrek has adult themes they say and yes it does but it takes intelligence to wrap adult themes into something in any fashion that is subtle.

[@maravreloaded]

Hey. What's the problem with enjoying entertainment? Or are you one of those who say "cartoons aren't for adults" you cause people like Vivziepop to make this trash to prove you wrong. So, thanks.

[@Spino-hx2mr]

@@maravreloaded Issue is, a number of these shows listed are better written.

[@giulizpaviz6381]

@@maravreloaded there are adult cartoons (and animes) that are way better than Hazbin Hotel (Arcane, Invincible, South Park, Vinland Saga ecc.). Good Adult cartoons are not just swearing or being provokative, but also exploring certain subjects that adults understands better and allows the audience to have their own conclusion. I gave Hazbin Hotel the benefit of the doubt thinking that the whole theme was about redemption (the difficulty about it or accepting that some people cannot be redeemed). But nope, Hell good Heaven bad. It's like something that a 14 y/o would write just to annoy their gramparents.

[@lauraw2526]

@@giulizpaviz6381 They don't even portray Hell as good, that's the part I found confusing. I expected it to be the kind of edgy gnostic crap that's popular on tumblr - but the show can't even do that right. Hell is shown as a terrible place, and for as bad as the angels are, the demons/sinners are still worse! The entire premise seems to be 'everyone is awful, don't bother being a good person, you're an idiot if you do.'

[@XaldirGodofGood]

This Series is about a bunch of Californians, trying to escape California.

[@InquisitorJack]

Welcome to the Hotel California, you can check out anytime you like but you can never leave. Turns out the Eagles song was about Hell. Go figure

[@valkrian0974]

​@@InquisitorJackSuch a lovely place.

[@adrenjones9301]

And the Angels are just Cops arresting People from time to time?

[@chuckwood3426]

@@valkrian0974 Such a lovely face.

[@clpfox470]

​@@chuckwood3426any time of year

[@dat_lamp]

There is nothing more viscous than Viziepop fans. I'm glad to see people like you call out her horrible decisions Arch.

[@frug5629]

From what I've read, Vizie herself isn't much better. Absolute headache to work for and constantly starts melodrama. Also she apparently dog whistled her fans into doxxing Scott Cawthon for his political donations.

[@dat_lamp]

@frug5629 Heard similar things, such a wonderful human being. No wonder she focuses on Hell and demons, they just relate to her.

[@gamingforever9121]

@@dat_lampit’s where she’s going. So write what you know I suppose.😂

[@ThanosDestroyeryearsago]

@@gamingforever9121What a loving and caring human being you are!

[@lephinor2458]

He's saying the truth.

[@wolfgangallanalhazred802]

Honestly, while I am glad that independent artists like Vivzie are making their dreams a reality, I gave up on the whole project after seeing Beelzebub, a pejorative term for Baal Hadad as "Lord of the Flies" and Goetian demon, reduced to flying furbait because she made a cartoon about a singing fox person years ago. Just another example of her passing on something potentially morbid and weird for the sake of "safe horny" shenanigans.

[@tim4330]

What if it's the Lord of flies Because the furry never Washes themselves or the suit

[@JLCL01]

Should have made Beezlebub THICC, at least. (But then people would have bitched and said the head person behind the Gluttony Circle is "fatphobic")

[@Spino-hx2mr]

@@JLCL01 You can portray Gluttony in far better ways than that. Though that’s asking a bit much.

[@rahn45]

@@Spino-hx2mr Having Gluttony as impossibly thin can work if framed properly: As in that's how gluttonous people see themselves, or to be a lure to get people to indulge. After all having a horrible fat pig monster as Gluttony would immediately turn people away from the concept. So basically it makes sense for the 7 Deadly Sins to emulate the 7 Virtues, to lure people in.

[@rahn45]

@@Spino-hx2mr Well having the sins dressed up as virtues is pretty on brand no?

[@Noperare]

Since you mentioned Hitl3r, where are the n@zis? This is hell after all. Instead of having ALL characters be "diverse" and "queer", have one n@zi character to bounce off. It would be specially funny if one of the queer characters tries to moralize him and his response is "if you are so much better than me, why we both ended up in the same place?" The dialogue between the two extremes would allow them to understand their respective flaws from the other perspective and grow as a better person.

[@Sorain1]

At the least, there is a need to address that with "No one was willing to put up with them, so everyone stood back and let them be destroyed by Heaven in the first cull." Or some other basic, one sentence explanation.

[@Adam-326]

@@Sorain1That’s actually what happened, I think that the crew have stated that at some point.

[@milanmarkovic2721]

​@@Adam-326Really? If you find it, it would be neat. Just don't use Wiki. I swear, I found politicians who can tell truth than that wiki being correct.

[@artistanthony1007]

If Hitler was mentioned in E1 of HB but never mentioned again and shown, it says everything you need to know of the creator's cowardices.

[@Sorain1]

@@Adam-326 Well that's nice, but you need to have it _in the story itself_ or it doesn't matter.

[@Booma4142]

"Was edgy 20 years ago" Vivziepop has been trying to make it for about that long so it's not surprising. Gotta keep in mind the entire story is from the perspective of sinners and the demons who torment them.

[@debanydoombringer1385]

Which has absolutely nothing to do with their criticisms of no plot line that runs throughout tieing everything together from episode to episode, no character development, jumping from subject to subject randomly, and constant contradictions.

[@mrbigglezworth42]

@@debanydoombringer1385The sad part is her other main work before animation, Zoophilia, had all the same problems and all the same themes and tropes. So not only is the creator treading the same ground, she hasn’t learned any lessons whatsoever.

[@joncooke158]

For me, part of the appeal is that it looks like something that would show up in a 2005 Hot Topic.

[@BetamaxFlippy]

@@mrbigglezworth42 Uhm... I think you meant to say Zoophobia.

[@jaffarebellion292]

@@BetamaxFlippy Given the amount of furry shit I've seen in screenshots of Hazbin, I think he might be onto something.

[@doyourbest_uwu]

One thing: in the other series Vivziepop has, Helluva Boss, there is established the purpose of the angel's yearly extermination. The angels are there to specifically kill sinners, who can only be killed by the holy weapons of the angels, and characters like Alaster, who gained immense power through their conquests in the Ring of Pride, are sinners. They are not just demons they are sinners.

[@doyourbest_uwu]

I now realize how poorly I put these sentences together.

[@delta2372]

I think her working on helluva boss for the past 4 years also really hindered this show, both in terms of excitement and the writing quality, when I heard that season one of hazbin hotel was finally out I was just "oh well that's a thing, not really excited for it anymore but I'll give it a watch" so with the positives, the animation is beautiful I will give vivi all kinds of credit for the art design it's fantastic but, that's about where the praise ends. I've noticed that everyone in hell in this universe is every sexual orientation but hetero and that's the main reason why they are in hell, christanity believes in redemption for anyone so charlie getting mocked angels themselves for trying to live up to a core tenant of christanity is retarded.

[@crafcik1240]

but you made your point clear and showed a flaw in her wider storytelling@@doyourbest_uwu

[@thorveim1174]

Point is valid tho, in this universe there is a clear distinction made between hellborn demons and sinners, with the latter being the main focus of Hazbin

[@doyourbest_uwu]

@thorveim1174 Arch doesn't seem to get this it seems.

[@CorwinTheOneAndOnly]

I liked it for the most part, but adam being the only hyper comically evil character feels... narratively lazy, considering the nuance the rest of the series claims to strive towards. Literally redeeming the irredeemable, yet adam is very clearly the author's "comically irredeemable character that we will spend zero time trying to change" Even alastor, a definitive chaotic evil, has some kind of moral code that keeps himself in check. It feels like this show is self-sabotaging right from the get-go.

[@debanydoombringer1385]

That's the thing though, nobody changes. Even in the other show that's true. There's no character development.

[@mrbigglezworth42]

@@debanydoombringer1385Hilariously, the characters DID change…through inter season retcons. The big Owl demon isn’t a cheating bastard who sabotaged his family life for a bit of fun on the side. It turns out his wife was a bitch from the start and his gay lover was actually a childhood friend all along. The only functional relationship that was also coincidentally the heterosexual one had to be dragged down with everyone else because the audience noticed they were the only ones without major mental problems. So naturally that had to change. Some of the changes feel like they were made out of spite of the audience notice patterns. The worst part is most of the time the show isn’t even comedic, it’s hardly action packed either . It’s devolved into nothing but musical numbers and drama. You’d be hard pressed to remember the main characters were demonic hitmen anymore.

[@sassyghost_8]

@@mrbigglezworth42That’s my biggest gripe with Vivzie’s work. She brings out two pilots with very clear stories and changes them on a whim. Hazbin was about rehabilitating sinners but now there’s a huge war with heaven and the promised plot is taking a back seat or used to show just how naive Charlie is (who is becoming very annoying very fast from her own ineptitude). Helluva Boss was meant to be an office comedy similar to stuff like The Office and Parks and Rec but now it’s like a fan fiction soap opera. She keeps making huge changes to what she promises her audience and the final product ends up a mess because she unraveled her own story to fit a new narrative idea that popped in her head. It’s a shame because both concepts had potential but her storytelling is too scatterbrained to do them justice. I know she’s worked on Hazbin for years but it doesn’t feel like she spent years polishing it.

[@Halfort57]

Is Alastor chaotic evil, tho? I always saw him more as a Chaotic neutral type

[@Quickdrawingartist]

Adam. Is in the "man created by clay from God" Adam. My goodness, that's... Fuck. Just "fuck", Final Fantasy Spirits Within looks better written unlimited leagues of Hasbin and Hellofa. And I kinda like Spirits Within, even knowing it don't sit right.

[@dejalmer]

the show is aimed at teenagers who think they are super edgy, not realizing that ground has been tread so thoroughly that you could put a termal powerplant there.

[@mr.cookiecutter]

As an adult who does not consider myself edgy, I don't think this statement holds much water. Do fans like that exist? Sure. But some people like the show because the artstyle is appealing, most of the songs are very fun, and the characters are enjoyable. I have no issue with criticism, but this is less a criticism and more just insulting people who enjoy something.

[@LordNithilus]

@@mr.cookiecutter THAT was insulting?

[@mr.cookiecutter]

@@LordNithilus calling everyone who enjoys a show edgy teenagers is an insult, yes.

[@CorwinTheOneAndOnly]

Your surface level analysis is not how you make a counterargument. "I find the characters enjoyable" is a very valid emotion, liking things or disliking things is a person's first reaction to anything, regardless of reason. But when you are making a counterargument, you need to deduce WHY you like those things, and then put those reasons forth as a case. You have not done this. @@mr.cookiecutter

[@LordNithilus]

​@@mr.cookiecutter It is a show directed primarily at teens, and is indeed attempting to be edgy. Sorry that accuracy makes you feel bad.

[@samaritan_sys]

I auditioned for a voice role like, a decade ago when the creator was trying to get the pilot off the ground. The fact that the lines in the finished product hadn’t changed one iota from that early draft speaks for itself.

[@BetamaxFlippy]

Were those bad lines? Did they need to be changed? You're not offering much insight or reason.

[@Bam_Bizzler]

​@@BetamaxFlippyhaving every character talk the same with "f that, f you, you bleep head" when they're supposed to of different backgrounds and stances of power Isn't exactly a diverse portfolio of character writing. People make fun of it for a reason

[@rimzaaah5892]

What character were you auditioning for?

[@StynoxTheScaracheid]

all I think is that this show will never have the helltaker girls, and thus will always be inferior.

[@rosesongoku6980]

Queen Lucy (she is also Pres and CEO) is the BOMB!

[@ThatOneGuyWithAFork]

Did any of the Helltaker girls get a $50,000 music video? I think not.

[@LordNithilus]

@@ThatOneGuyWithAFork Perhaps because the Helltaker fans have a better knowledge of finance.

[@dragonandavatarfan8865]

@@ThatOneGuyWithAFork Wasting $50,000 on a shitty 3 minute striptease music video ain't the flex you think it is lmao.

[@bakedturkeys2132]

@@ThatOneGuyWithAFork Sarcasm doesn't translate well over text on the internet. Might want to put a disclaimer.

[@mechajay3358]

This show isn't even old-school edgy. It's just "safe edgy." The most blandest kind around

[@raumograeywolf5477]

I think "safe edgy" can be simplified to "Sedgy"

[@Kingrich_777]

What would “old school edgy” entail?😂

[@zenhao9282]

​@@raumograeywolf5477shaggy

[@CoolMaster-gr3bp]

​@@Kingrich_777 NI-

[@LIGHTANGEL_EX]

@@Kingrich_777FA-

[@Liberty_or_Ded]

The problem with the storytelling, such as it is, is that it is presented through the lens of someone who is suffering from arrested development. Vivzie has a, shall we say, childish look on things. I won't fault her for her visual creativity, because she has it in spades. She is very good at conceptualizing visuals, and presenting them. Her weakness, however, is in her storytelling. Or, in whoever she has working with her on the storytelling in her stuff. It's all very much in line with someone who has daddy issues and arrested development; the childishness of everything suddenly juxtaposing itself against something that should be very dark and gritty and grim in an effort to try to maintain an immature tone. It feels almost like modern MCU writing in that respect.

[@MamaMOB]

That is a fantastic point. I actually really enjoyed the show It's just missing things. I think you hit the nail on the head. As a woman who does not have daddy issues I find it lacking.

[@Liberty_or_Ded]

@@MamaMOB Yeah, women who are well-adjusted and are talented writers have a pretty good track record of writing compellingly gritty, mature, and insightful commentary on the human condition. The Last of Us is the first example to immediately pop into my head here. Women who have arrested development, however, tend to write like teenaged girls, because that's where the development of their maturity tends to have terminated: The tryhard edgelord girl who is always rebelling against everything she blames all her current problems on, which are also the same 'problems' she had when her maturity abruptly ceased for whatever reason. Vivzie, or whoever writes for her, seems to have put a period on her personality growth in the mid-to-late 00s. She's a woma-...she's a girl in her 30s, remembering the days where she was the cool, edgy rebel girl standing against the established order. As Arch and Kibs pointed out, she is either unaware or uncaring that she is now among the established order. She probably lacks the self-awareness needed to realize fact though, because if she had self-awareness, she would've grown up long ago. If you've read this far to the conclusion, thank you.

[@victorHhugo-uh9mq]

Só jujutsu Kaisen.....

[@piegineer9130]

@@Liberty_or_Ded Funny that when Vivzie try to write character who she considered to be well-adjusted person it turns out to be just a boring person with no flaw or problem in life because she thinks those peoples never been "damaged" like the rest even thought that not what well-adjusted was they suppose to be person who can control their emotions and will try to solve their problem in constructive way many of well-adjusted person can face just as much problem like any other so for Vivzie kind of show that she have very Naive view on peoples.

[@Liberty_or_Ded]

@@piegineer9130 Vivzie's method of writing 'well-adjusted' characters to be boring is also pretty emblematic of the fact that she herself is anything but well-adjusted, another tell that she's stuck in arrested development. I'm a bit damaged-goods myself, I'll freely admit, but I can see that people who are well-adjusted are not people without The Troubles. Those who are well-adjusted are those who have gone through The Troubles and triumphed. They are hardly ever boring. They are often the most compelling people to speak with. I'm going to guess Vivzie scorns such people, probably out of jealousy over her own inability to be well-adjusted through her own merits... Vivzie went through whatever version of The Troubles she went through and never recovered. This doesn't mean Vivzie's a girl with a tragic backstory either. It could just as easily mean she's a privileged, pampered, sheltered girl who never experienced any real struggles but found the prospect of having to do things on her own and having to face quite literally ANY adversity as being "traumatizing." By all accounts she honestly seems like that's the bill that she fits to; her edgy rebel-girl persona comes off less as a battered survivor and more like a spoiled brat, fuming that the world didn't give her everything she wanted... which, if true, is highly ironic given her current status as basically being elevated to the rank of a mainstream celebrity animator. I could be wrong about her, but my pattern-recognition skills have been finely honed through constant experience with people like her. I'm sure she would protest my analysis of her. I'm sure I would be able to poke holes in her protest in turn.

[@avivastudios2311]

Your point about it being 20-30 years too late is interesting. But even in the 90's people would still be able to tell just how fast paced and awkward this show is. Nothing makes any sense, the setting of hell is underdeveloped and it's hard to care about any of the characters and what they want.

[@Darker7]

Except, the 90s were the era of Grimdark. This show wouldn't have been edgy in the 90s, it would've been deemed a bizarre attempt at kiddyfying an adult show with a weird art style :Ü™

[@avivastudios2311]

@@Darker7 The era of Grimdark. Okay, guess I don't know much about the 90's. But if that's true than you're right.

[@carsonvance1555]

This show is every redditors wet dream. I hate to use the word 'cringe' but that's all I could think of trying to watch the show. I get comedy is 'subjective' but swearing every 2 minutes with sex joke is middle schooler level humor. It feels like the writers never grew past the mid 2000's style of internet humor and it really shows. their is no thought or build up to any jokes, not once did I actually laugh, the closest I got to laughing was just a little 'heh'. Is it well animated? yes. Are the voice actors doing a great job? yes. but none of that matters when I can't get invested or care for any of the characters. You guys are absolutely correct that this show was made for people with ADHD. I cant think of one moment in the show where the characters wouldn't just shut the hell up and let a scene breathe and stand on its own. I always try to support animated series since I think the time and talent that goes into them is severely underappreciated. Don't see my self watching the rest of the series. Oh and the spin off show Helluva Boss is just as insufferable too. gonna have to give this series a pass.

[@frankg2790]

The pilot promised us a story where an Underdog and her close circle of friends fight an uphill battle to redeem the sinners in Hell. What we got was rushed character development, rushed plot, an openin' that watered down and rewrote The Book Of Genesis in order to make Heaven look evil, The Devil goin' from bumblin' dad who gets in a dick measurin' contest with someone who's lower on the totem pole than him to a Deus Ex Machina, turnin' Adam from a victim of the serpent's machinations to an arrogant sexist moron, the tone flip-floppin' from dark humor to bein' serious, Heaven not knowin' the criteria to enter their gated community, the Extermination bein' retconned from population control to a display of power that is done for shits and giggles, and the "underdogs" curbstompin' the supposedly unstoppable Heavenly Host. I rate the show 4/10 (if it wasn't for the musical numbers "Stayed Gone" and "Respectless", I'd give it a lower ratin').

[@distance7721]

Hot take: needing to deal with the constraints of network censors is actually a good thing. It forces writers to tell the jokes they want in creative ways that can get slipped past the censors, rather than just screaming "Cock" and "Fuck" all the time and expecting laughs

[@MachineMan-mj4gj]

I'm still retroactively getting adult jokes they slipped into cartoons 20 years ago. Can you believe Spongebob of all shows manged to get a prison rape joke into an episode about giving a pet a bath?

[@ieatpeopleand]

​@@MachineMan-mj4gj Watch old Ren and Stimpy episodes. I can not believe what was on Nickelodeon back in the day.

[@moemothmann6760]

I was gonna say we need a term for "safe edgy" but that term already exists... cringe.

[@RipOffProductionsLLC]

Cringe covers a ton of other categories of stupid shit...

[@Awootistic]

Kibs: "It's like it doesn't know what it wants to be. Do you want to be a kids show or do you want to be for adults?" That right there Kibs. You answered your own question. It's for adults that never grew up. That's why you have the kids aspect of the cartoon, and have the grusome mature content as well because technically we're 18 so we're adults by government standard.

[@InquisitorJack]

The darker interpretation is they’re also trying to get kids to watch and be exposed

[@navarog378]

​@@InquisitorJack14+ teenagers who watch things like that anyway and younger adults are the target audience. I don't see how that's a problem

[@almalone3282]

​@InquisitorJack Does Amazon have a age restriction mode?

[@alextheman3330]

You’re not an adult if you’re watching this trash Sorry to tell you the truth 🤷‍♂️

[@doomkrieg3817]

@@navarog378read that as target suicide (half asleep), and that actually tracks with those that watch this show.

[@sdfarsight]

As with Helluva Boss, sometimes they leap between artistic brilliance (especially for an indie show) and just reverting to tired "swearing = funny" scenes. Also I think they were trying a bit too hard to make the 'Adam' angel an obvious bad guy. I would have prefered if they used the Helluva Boss angels who are annoying and pedantic yet still fundimentally 'more good' than the people in hell, thus still giving an incentive for the characters to want to be in heaven. Perhaps they were going for a more complex "two sides of the same coin" narrative but instead it comes across as "Look how the first man is evil".

[@ramsesthethird4274]

Yeah I agree. I've liked Helluva Boss more thus far. Hazbin has a lot of good ideas, but the execution seems way too fast paced. Some stuff like Adam feels like it would have fit better if brought in later, maybe to juxtapose the idea that Hell is so awful that you might as well try to fix yourself up by having a 'angelic' individual who has no compunction to be good since he is already in Heaven sort of thing. But the pacing has really hurt it. Overall, it isn't terrible but a far cry from the Pilot.

[@HunterStiles651]

​​@@ramsesthethird4274Given that Brandon is as involved in the direction of Helluva Boss as Viv is, I have to imagine 99% of Helluva Boss's redeeming qualities come from him, because Brandon based on his KZbin channel has talent while Viv just doesn't.

[@runawayfromtoads674]

Hazbin Hotel barely shows the hotel. The pilot made us think we'll see more of it. A rehabilitation hotel marketing sure refuge from extermination is interesting to see in contrast to the implied protection Overlords can provide to sinners through dubious contracts. At least Helluva Boss showed us IMP business shenanigans as established from its pilot till it lost focus in S2. Adam comes across as a one note sexist joke. I'd prefer Adam to appear sweet only to be a Nice Guy hellbent on the extermination as revenge to Lilith, the first woman who dumped his ass. At least he would seem dangerous. Otherwise, Adam could run the extermination as payback to Lilith and Lucifer. It's through their influence that Adam, Eve, and humanity were cast out of Eden, know sin, and can end up in Hell. Adam being sent to heaven for being the first man would also bear the curse of the angels never letting him go of his sin for all of eternity. It would make Charlie facing Adam more interesting. A hellborn who wants to give sinners a chance for heaven. A human who is the reason why sinners can end up in hell. I do find Adam funny but just because he's the most entertaining asshole in the show.

[@janschropfer439]

She was so focused on inclussion that it ended up with no straight white people being in hell... which is rather hillarious :D . I saw fans trying to gaslight it as "oh only like, uh, people who deserve redemption are part of this part of hell or something, um" - so the murderers, rapers etc.. Got it.

[@loneIyboy15]

That problem hit me immediately. If I had been the guy in charge of approving this, I'd take out all that stuff just to avoid having people asking why there are no straight people there!

[@seanallard9335]

Uncle Ruckas would love this universe.

[@SeinIshamiado]

​@@loneIyboy15Maybe think about this. there's no straight people because straight people are in everything.

[@DM-mi4je]

​@@SeinIshamiado Vast majority of the population (98%) is in everything. Shocker.

[@SeinIshamiado]

@@DM-mi4je not lgbt stuff tho.

[@VioletDeathRei]

Maybe it's just me but them making a show where everyone with their particular "persuasions" ending up in the burning place was always hard for me to argue with.

[@MrLolguy93]

It's the identification with evil

[@InquisitorJack]

Doesn’t matter how they try to glitz and glam it up like the theater kids they are…Hell is Hell

[@LordNithilus]

The creator banned someone for pointing out the irony of this was pretty funny.

[@GeneralProfessor]

If you don't believe in objective morality and instead view everything only through the lens of power and morally relativist spectrums then you just may conclude that satan and his demons were marginalized and oppressed victims of God whose crime was that they wanted a more equitable redistribution of power. Once you consider this it certainly puts into a different light and further contextualizes the left's worship of pride. In addition, it also makes noteworthy their hatred of hierarchies and patriarchies, since to accept God is to accept the ultimate patriarchy and the ultimate hierarchy. Things such as these are why every now and again I'm reminded of a quote by Buckminster Fuller: "Those who play with the devil's toys will be brought by degrees to wield his sword."

[@KopperNeoman]

It's like that Soviet propagandist who was a true believer so accidentally wrote a lot of hero antagonists.

[@the.dandy.man2]

honesl the creators problem is twofold she's not a writer and she's too thin skinned to accept criticism and improve her craft, which is a damn shame

[@grant5758]

I love all the people talking about the opening like Charlie (the narrator) isn't comically biased. Of coarse she would see Lucifer as the good guy, she is hopelessly optimistic, he's her dad and the story she was told is very probably highly equivocated if not outright false.

[@Madlad000]

The other problem though is that they make characters like Adam out to be bad people. It isn’t that she idolizes and therefore is a bad narrator for Lucifer it’s we can also prove that Lilith was justified for leaving Adam because he was a self absorbed dude bro. He is the original sinner but to make him out to be a heartless monster seems wrong.

[@astarteswillum5259]

Somehow I doubt that. Vivziepop doesn't seem like the type to do that.

[@MamaMOB]

​@@Madlad000well if you look at the story of Adam and Eve from Eve's perspective Adam kind of is a horrible person. He didn't like his first wife because She wouldn't do everything he said and you were literally made to be his servant. Kind of not a good guy. Also because he didn't take the first bite from the apple of knowledge Eve was the first one with a brain.

[@BenLWolf]

@@astarteswillum5259 She's a furry. All they know is "LETTERS GOOD! PUT MORE LETTERS!"

[@Spino-hx2mr]

@@BenLWolf Whaddya Mean?

[@Errtuabyss]

My biggest problem with the show(s) is how damn superficial they are. Both Hazbin Hotel and Helluva Boss play on big emotions and interesting character interactions (and the great technical quality overall) to score with the audiance. And for the most part that works pretty well. As can be seen with all the positive comments. The problem is that there is almost nothing behind it. With very rare exceptions every character has daddy issues, was/is a victim of abuse and spergs out randomly like an old bugs bunny cartoon. It's basically a different flavour of the same tropes. And the interactions, while well presented, are mostly meaningless in the end. People reacht to each other but they are not influenced by each other. At the end of the interaction nothing really changed. The Story progression in the first episode they released is even worse. Not just that the whole jazz about the commertial being irrelevant makes everything the rest of the gang did irrelevant, the meta plot of heaven hiding something about the extermination and Charlies whole plan is (at least right now) is looking to be pointless undermines everything they set up so far.. What is the point of anything that is happening? Why should I care when barely anybody in the show cares and those who do are obviously wasting their time since they are sabotaged from the beginning? The emotional investment just isn't there for me. Helluva Boss is maybe the better example because we already had almost 2 seasons of content. Which almost no progression at all. Every change we saw was either in a flashback or something that had no actual influence on the characters. The first, and so far only, relevant change was Fizzarolli. Forgiving Blitz0, leaving Mammon and going public with his releationship everybody already knew about. Which is nice as character development, but almost meaningless since we never spend time learning about him before this change and with him being a supporting character, not the main cast, it's not really changing anything about the problem of the plot or character development. In a show that at least acts as if it was about those things. I see the same things already happening in the two episodes (pilot and first) in Hasbin Hotel. Which is set up to be about the guest of the week trying and failing at redemption, but is about everything but. The point should be how in trying to help others (and failing) they work on themselves and have a subtil progression in their relationships. I can't see any of that happening with what was shown so far. Just random and overall horribleness from everybody sold as jokes.

[@eventuallywillbe]

Very insightful. Thank you.

[@MamaMOB]

Sounds like you need to watch more than two episodes. Because it's not a guest of the week. And how do you expect progression in two episodes? How do you expect character arcs in two episodes? How do you expect much of anything from two episodes?

[@Lalle524]

​@@MamaMOBIf you manage to achieve or establish nothing in two episodes, especially the first and second episode of a TV show, the rest of the show is unlikely to succeed when it is by the same logic building on nothing in future.

[@TheScarletSlayer]

Frankly I'm just glad people have more too say than just, "oh you just don't like it cause you hate women". Disney in a nutshell. But anyway, I can see where you're coming from. But I think even if they do rely on classic tropes that doesn't necessarily make them bad. Ive enjoyed all the characters so far and haven't been given any reason to dislike them. Not sure how the plots are going to end so I can't comment on that yet but for what we have so far it's just been a fun ride. Clearly the animation and the songs got a lot of attention and everybody feels like themselves but perfected. The characters we've been waiting to see again for 4 years now. Perhaps the issue is more so that the show isn't necessarily bad but rather that people just want something different. It's not gonna be for everyone and that's understandable. But for what it is you can't act like they didn't put maximum effort into this. It's leagues better than anything Disney(or most of Hollywood for that matter) has put out recently. Let's just appreciate a series that doesn't try to talk down to us and just has fun with itself for a change. It's trying to entertain at the end of the day and I'd say it's very entertaining.

[@allenpate4515]

​​​@@TheScarletSlayer you know that's actually a good point infact the four years thing makes sense she's always put heart and soul into what she creates at least hell helluva boss season finale episode eight was basically an homage to her original Kesha furry video and got kesha in her episode if that's not full circle I don't know what is . Shes living her dream and she made that furry Kesha back when the party dont stop was topping charts

[@FeeNixBeech]

They are broken inside. They cannot maintain consistency because they themselves are absolutely mad.

[@brendancoulter5761]

So the show is about hell, and pretty much the entire cast is some obscure sexual orientation or another..... but there are no Nazis or rapists in hell....

[@bobdole3804]

Hey they said it.

[@sophiecooper1824]

No rapists 😂 You haven't met Valentino i guess

[@janschropfer439]

@@sophiecooper1824 who is also a alphabet person... in vivz pursue of inclusion... she created LGBTQ mockery somehow.

[@navarog378]

A TV host is officially a nazi I think and rapists are kind of everyone. So... Does that make the show good for you now? Will it entertain you?

[@getfreur2458]

There is rapists, that's for sure...but no nazis, is someone in the production team saying that they went to haven? I mean, haven has a literal army of exterminators that goes to hell from time to time for the purpose of exterminate.

[@PlanetZoidstar]

Viv writes fiction like she's perpetually stuck in 2009 when she was 17 and learning edgy humour for the first time. Like swearing or suggestiving provocative sexuality IS the punchline to the joke.

[@RedwolfDogrocket]

Perfectly said. And it reeks of drag queen story hour. Its not for kids! Yeah right. Thankfully kids don't have the attention span for this 2924!

[@frug5629]

To an extent, I get it. It's Hell and naturally isn't doing to have the most decent people there. The problem is how repetitive it gets.

[@PlanetZoidstar]

@@frug5629 Well that's the thing, even genuinely good people end up in Hell all the time, what matters is if by Heaven's standards they are "bad". Take Mrs. Mayberry, she says "1 mistake" got her stuck in Hell (she shot her cheating husband and his mistress, then herself) after an implied lifetime of doing good. While she is of course going to paint herself in a good light it was "1 bad day" that decided her ultimate fate.

[@schnek8927]

@@PlanetZoidstar Murdering two people and then committing suicide (arguably to escape punishment) classifies you as an example of "genuinely good people", in your eyes...? Like yeah, cheating is bad and all, but anyone who thinks it's in any way comparable to *MURDER* is mentally ill... Maybe you didn't mean to imply that, but it is what you commented.

[@PlanetZoidstar]

@@schnek8927 Umm, no? Did you actually read my whole message?

[@spnked9516]

The problem with Hazbin Hotel stems from the fact that it's creator, Vivziepop, comes off as an amateur hobbyist still and not a professional with some experience under their belt. Arguably the thing that differentiates the hobbyist from the professional is their ability to plan - and with Vivziepop, like so many other modern creators, theres a distinct lack of planning present in many elements of her work. When you go through the show - paying attention to the script, characterization, and setting - you notice a distinct lack of cohesive logic. Instead of things flowing from one thing to another in an ordered manner, her larger projects (Helluva Boss included here) often feel like a sloppy patch work of disparate ideas that have been haphazardly sewn together during some flight of fancy. Now, I can respect the girl for putting in the effort necessary to get a passion project greenlit by a major company, but at some point you have step up to the plate and prove that you actually make something worth the resources being dumped into you.

[@piegineer9130]

These days we have so many writers who to focus on "The Theme","Story conflict","Emotional sense and big Climactic moment" etc and not a basic thing that make well structure story like "cohesive narrative", "Set up and pacing","Well defined character role" etc so story end up being disjointed mess and filled with lot of story beats and idea that go noway because the lack of commitment to push the story into one single main goal.

[@spnked9516]

@@piegineer9130 it's my belief that mainstream writing, by and large, collapsed in the 2010s, largely due to younger gen X and older millenials pressing more and more of their irreverence, insecurities, and contempt for structures into the mainstream. They made "being different" the highest value and prioritized it over being competent - using flippant dismissiveness as a shield against criticism. If you look at the broader culture, this actually falls dead in line with the collapse of major cultural cornerstones in the West. It's not exactly a coincidence that major, long running IPs like Star Wars, Dr Who, Warhammer Fantasy, and Lord of the Rings (rings of power began produced in the late 2010s) all collapsed a stone's throw from each other. The old was discarded for the new, and the new just didn't have a leg to stand on because they people who made it, in essence, either didn't think about it or thought it wasn't needed.

[@ieatpeopleand]

​@@spnked9516 As a junior Gen-X, yeah, I see where you're coming from with this. I used to jokingly say Gen-X guiding stars were Apathy and Indifference.

[@errantvice7335]

Ultrakill’s depiction of Hell is cooler, being a nameless, faceless husk with no arms, existing only to suffer and be murdered by robots, sounds a lot better than being a copy/pasted twink in a pinstripe suit.

[@marley7868]

also king minos and gabriel and the insurrection also the fact devolved cause the angels went crazy cause god I think said I'm leaving

[@gloomreach4325]

Hell being cool is a mistake. Irl it’s probably closer to this. It’s all the worst people in all of existence. Dante’s inferno had hell populated with worthless petty people similar to this show.

[@Spino-hx2mr]

@@gloomreach4325 No, people have an allergy to Benevolent Deities. Hell is the place where the bottom of the barrel-scraping, horrendous people, who cared for nothing in life and sought no redemption (At least before it was too late). Satan isn't a King there, but a prisoner. Portray him as the Embodiment of Evil. Heaven being the "actual" bad one is oversaturated.

[@mrbigglezworth42]

I think I prefer Doom 3’s Hell. An abstract place where concepts like time, symmetry, and even spatial awareness are constantly changing and at the whims of the entities that live there. It is not a place you want to be, and not a place Man was meant to tread.

[@jaffarebellion292]

Berserk's version of Hell is pure nightmare fuel.

[@rdubayoo]

What I've noticed about furry art--and this show is no exception--but there's this compulsion to put weird extra details on everything until you have a chaotic mess. We can't just have an anthropomorphic fox. Oh no, it has to have green fur, its eyes have different colors, random multicolored stripes here and there, and also an eyepatch with a painting of a cat's eye on it. Actually, that's probably not crazy enough. My point is that a design is not always helped by just adding more.

[@clpfox470]

Yea sparkle dogs are weird

[@boobah5643]

That's how you can prove that _your_ OC (do not steal) isn't _their_ OC being stolen: add ugly, pointless, unoriginal detail that requires no more creativity than going down a list and assigning a color and maybe size.

[@DaMaster012]

It's a design philosophy that screams: "LOOK AT ME! GIVE ME ATTENTION! TELL ME I'M SPECIAL!"

[@lurkyb0i602]

They want to be a Jack of all trades in the sense that they want to appeal to as many as possible but never pick a unique and specialized design that would appeal to a niche. And like jacks of all trades, they are masters of nothing.

[@Snow-Foot]

Sometimes wonder if it's ADD or if there's an underlying pathology to some of it.

[@joshuahansen5486]

It is an adult cartoon written by a very childish adult

[@phoenixdouchebag904]

You could say that about Most Western Adult Cartoons.

[@maravreloaded]

It's _"Adult Cartoons in a Nutshell"_

[@worldwaide]

This is the most accurate comment here. Look at how she acts in social media, it’s like she never progressed past middle school

[@ThanosDestroyeryearsago]

@@worldwaide She says that cussing alone is enough to make her laugh 💀

[@peopleofearth6250]

Most adult cartoons are childish. Get over it 😂

[@MrConredsX]

felt like a typical tumblr edgy cartoon so i never bothered to give it a try and it seems it turned out to be a typical tumblr cartoon

[@juliovictormanuelschaeffer8370]

What's funny is that Hellboy (the comics and the first two movies) shares a premise with this show, as in a demon who goes against his own nature, but does it better and with actual maturity (and being straight).

[@firebornliger]

I expect it to fall into the same hole that Hellava Boss did: The core story becomes homosexual relationship drama, but with no actual focus on anything enough to actually care about the characters..

[@thorveim1174]

Still think helluva managed to make the characters compelling enough. Dont care for the homo side whatsoever, but the class struggle does work, and Stolas is just a damn good character overall in my book, truely a caring father and a responsible guy ever since he learned that being super horny was not the way to go. Issue is, hellborn demons can have a side of good, they were just born here after all; sinners however have to be evil to end up here in the first place

[@TimSlee1]

I hope it does the opposite of Helluva Boss

[@mikzpwnz_3199]

Well the current one is no better: the only obstacle to our plan is that those who are in charge dont want to do it as they're asholes. We just need to change who's in charge and everything would be hunky dory. The worst art they set up this massive twist that only needed someone in the room to go "wait a minute." And any question regarding it would have meant Game Over for the exterminators as they are on shaky ground at best.

[@SomeYouTubeTraveler]

That's what you get when all the LGBTQ2SIA+ writers today got their starts writing fanfic, which is... exactly what you described.

[@hoifzf]

@@SomeKZbinTraveler bro fanfiction is something written by FANS like are you stupid?

[@alexadamson9959]

Let’s be honest here. If you’re trying to stop the angels from purging you, just mobilise all the SS veterans that are likely chilling out all over the place. They should put up a decent fight.

[@septimiusseverus343]

Lmao

[@kevinmccalister4602]

That's assuming that in this universe nazi's went to hell. No one can define what determines who goes where for all we know the exorcists could be nazi's. And that's the point. But it is really funny to imagine that final battle with SS soldiers instead of cannibals.

[@alexadamson9959]

@@kevinmccalister4602 to be fair the mid century Germans where anti gay and anti heretic (Jew). And a lot of them would have qualified Adam’s 3 rules on being a good person… holy shit the Nazis went to heaven…

[@duncanharrell5009]

Could have done something cool like the Battle of London from Hellsing but with the incredible mishmash of forces and cultures like from Bedknobs and Broomsticks. Instead we got... whatever the fuck that was.

[@alexadamson9959]

@@duncanharrell5009 that would have been fucking glorious.

[@Zhtrik]

Ah the Seth Macfarlane effect

[@MrLolguy93]

What's that?

[@Zhtrik]

@@MrLolguy93 Basically it’s a term I came up with for people who still think the stuff that was edgy 20 years ago is still edgy today.

[@spiffygonzales5160]

"uh... um... Christianity... er... is... um... dumb! Lol, I'm a comedy genius!" - the Seth McFarland effect

[@thelordofcringe]

American Dad is still funny so

[@Zhtrik]

@@thelordofcringe I’d believe you, if we weren’t on Season 18.

[@DBArtsCreators]

The narrative of Hazbin Hotel could be helped with something of an "Avatar: The Last Airbender" setup: * Season 1: Establishing the main characters, world building, & establish the overarching conflict. (Would end with Hazbin Hotel actually starting to function as intended, save that it's not yet Heaven-approved). * Season 2: Up the stakes to start (revelation that the next extermination will be 6 months earlier, rumors that it'll be a lot more thorough this time around), introduce the last few main characters, and deal with the more gray elements of the world as the ticking clock now becomes a much heavier pressure on the characters. * Season 3: "The 11th hour", where shit hits the fan and we get to see what it's like in "Heaven", and where the final battle (likely with angered angels/'saints' when God finally stops supporting them & the corruption they've been causing). In other words, Judgement Day.

[@moonzie37]

Perfect

[@stennapit]

This is actually cool af

[@kuradamax]

My biggest takeaway from this series is: If everyone in hell seems to be gay, does that mean God hating 'bundles-of-sticks' is confirmed?

[@ryszakowy]

haven't seen any nazis either so....

[@theopulentone1650]

@@ryszakowy I have never seen a Nazi irl, because I would never know their political leanings unless they had a swastika tatted on their head or they told me. Same goes for a racist, sexist or a serial killer. A lot of people think I'm a nice person irl, but my political views would most likely have everyone hate me.

[@manoftruth0935]

@@ryszakowyyou’d think Spindlehorse would still be a studio if they had any Nazi imagery in it? Helluva Boss maybe, but since Hazbin was sold to a soulless megacorp, they can’t show that.

[@GamePlayuh9510]

Was Sodom and Gomorrah not proof enough of that?

[@gyver8448]

@@ryszakowy This is literally covered in the first episode of Helluva Boss. The woman complains that she tried to live a good life but still ended up down in hell "with the Hitlers and Epsteins." Which tells you there are Nyatzi's in hell. You just don't see them because KZbin demonetizes you for showing anything Nyatzi related even if it's in a historical context.

[@EatWave]

The explanation for Hell's population will likely be that Hell is a ghetto for the oppressed.

[@BetamaxFlippy]

nah

[@DeadBaron]

Anyone else noticing the weird openly satanic media coming out lately? Cult of the Lamb, Hazbin, Helluva Boss, I know I'm forgetting others.

[@tim4330]

Now haven't played cult of the lamb , but tell me if im worng but doesn't it take place at a children's summers camp? And if that is the implied Aesthetic why would thet make a dlc about s3x and nudity?

[@DeadBaron]

@@tim4330 no (or at least I hope not) it's about a cult building a commune in the middle of nowhere like Jonestown, but the demons take physical forms

[@Castitalus]

I find it hilarious that the creator went so hard for "diversity" and ended up saying everyone who's not straight will end up in hell.

[@spiffygonzales5160]

Which they will... but I mean... that's beside the point lol

[@akumaking1]

That’s Slaanesh

[@joncooke158]

Yes? That's thematically the point, that black and white morality is fundamentally unfair in how it treats people?

[@dantebanducci235]

That’s what modern Christians teach though…

[@thegreatchickenoverlord5976]

​@@dantebanducci235Yes, thats the joke hes making

[@AkiSan0]

it actually hits the nail on the head with how modern "people" are. they are "adults" but with the brain capacity of a child.

[@BIGBOSS-bu1jt]

and the attention span of a gold fish

[@Brotherofthe4thCompany]

And lack any moral guidance.

[@gothpotato]

@@Brotherofthe4thCompanyyou sound like incels honestly

[@turkoositerapsidi]

@@Brotherofthe4thCompany Says the one with ork waaagh name and picture.

[@Brotherofthe4thCompany]

@@turkoositerapsidi What does being a Warhammer fan have to do with morality?

[@combinecommando001]

These people genuinely believe that swearing after every few words is edgy and cool. Their mentality is akin to that of an elementary school child who think he's a big deal for saying bad words in the yard.

[@rosesongoku6980]

LMAO they sound like the GTA 5 protagonists, except it made perfect sense for those guys to be that way and their delivery was hysterical every single time.

[@AKAjackob264]

Half the reason I can't stand the show is that the writers just think making them say "fuck" every few sentences counts as dialogue. If you have to resort to mass expletives to have your show considered "adult", you suck at writing. In my opinion, swearing works like money, the more there is, the less valuable it becomes. If you have a character that does nothing but swear, it doesn't mean anything extra to have them say it, it just becomes unnecessary filler. Just for kicks and giggles, I went and did the math for Episode 1 and got an average of 1 expletive every 29 seconds. That's not good writing, that's just vulgarity for the sake of vulgarity.

[@MinecraftMax248]

@@AKAjackob264swearing isn’t a unusual thing lol

[@bakedturkeys2132]

@@MinecraftMax248 it used to be super rare in both real life and media 20 years ago.

[@MinecraftMax248]

@@bakedturkeys2132 I grew up in Scotland and every third word here is a swear

[@xel1673]

Hazbin Hotel is like My Little Pony, but written as a fanfiction by a horny 16yo. Twilight Sparkle goes to hell to save sinners by teaching them about love, trust, and friendship. She makes a bunch of acquaintances and, for whatever personal reasons, they go along with her in this quest. Then the edgy adult themes with violence, sex, swearing, and raunchy-ness comes in. Plus as many gay ships as the 16yo wants. And you get one or two songs per episode.

[@noahlanders7029]

It has become a common occurrence recently, for someone’s ideology to destroy their work. The MCU is a big example but I think it happened here too. I believe there was a genuine attempt to take a serious look at the core concepts of Hazbin Hotel. Redemption being the biggest one. But because Vivziepop wanted representation, the theme became impossible to explore. You can’t explore the idea of redeeming a mass murderer because by so doing you acknowledge that the denizens of hell are here because they did something “wrong”. That includes all the BIPOC that are down there as well. I can only see the show ending in one way, Charlie comes to the conclusion that Heaven is terrible and instead of working on redemption she’ll make hell better for the people Heaven has kicked out. Probably with a speech/song about how it’s not criminal to be yourself. Except, Hell is terrible, it’s filled with terrible people who are willing to commit the most violent and depraved acts without remorse. Even the main cast are murderous psychopaths. There was potential for a deep and important message about hard work, second chances, and redemption, but I can’t see it happening when the main cast are all part of the rainbow community

[@Sorain1]

What occurs to me is that the creator of the show missed a trick. Resolve the problem by essentially in universe 'inventing' Purgatory. Make a third place for those who want to be better but didn't make the grade of Heaven's requirements. Sure, the nominal reason for going there is to make it to Heaven, but if as it seems the writer has decided Heaven is just another form of hell? Then they stay there and make 'Purgatory' into a reasonable place to live. Because there is a clear problem laid out 'Where do the not perfect but not uninterested in being good people go?' But I really doubt that anything like that is likely to come up, because as you mentioned by stuffing the entire cast with 'everything but straight' and not having focus the results... well we can see them, can't we?

[@isengarde9490]

It says a lot about the show that the most memorable main-ish character is a sociopathic cannibalistic radio host that openly stated in the pilot episode that he's only there to watch Charlie's hotel crash and burn, and eat his popcorn while doing it.

[@MaverickhunterXZero]

Hazbin is extremely safe edgy. Ironically to not get into trouble with the crowd Vivzy is trying to cater to, there is no truly evil people in Hell, but it sure has a lot of gay people.

[@sarafontanini7051]

"no genuinely evil people in hell" *looks at valentino* *looks at mammon and crimson, though they are hellborn* I don't think you've actually seen the show

[@MaverickhunterXZero]

@@sarafontanini7051 And they did what exactly?

[@TRENCHESandTREADS]

@@sarafontanini7051 Notice how you named literally 3 antagonists and not any of the main cast, support characters, or any other character that gets regularly interacted with? The show is super safe edgy. Almost no one in this show does anything truly reprehensible and all of the main characters have 'teenage' vices. No one uses any racial epithets, no one uses actual slurs or truly derogatory language, none of the main cast have done anything super out of the norm for a safe edgy comedy, etc. This is supposed to be HELL. We were promised that these were going to be adult shows, and yet, what we got was a 14 year old teenagers' warped interpretation of that instead. I don't think *you* have actually seen either show.

[@piegineer9130]

@@TRENCHESandTREADSNow I think about it JoJo having a literal "Naazee" Join the protagonist to help save the world is very bold move.

[@TRENCHESandTREADS]

@@piegineer9130 I wish we got something like that in Hazbin. Imagine how much better the series would be if the sinners she was trying to redeem were actually pretty horrible upfront instead of just sad and broken. It's like these people can't admit that the most heinous people are often also going to have 'sad backstories'. Instead, nope, all we get are whiny victims who made bad choices because they had a rough upbringing or whatever inane crap we get revealed about them. Ugh. I miss when 'adult animation' wasn't a category and visionaries just made adult shows that just happened to be cartoons.

[@CommissarLORDBernn]

The whole intro about Adam, Lilith, and Satan felt like Paradise Lost without any of the nuance or intelligence

[@troin3925]

It's not trying to be on the level of Paradise Lost.

[@jjjmadness8306]

If anything, the problems with Hazbin Hotel are the same problems that plague many Tumbler cartoons, such as Steven Universe and Owl House. They want to tell these complex stories that tackle serious subjects, but they always handle them in the most juvenile way, and the plot gets sidetracked by petty nonsense. They can't commit to any of their ideas, and it's even worse when they're so desperate to be taken seriously, but you can't because the creators have they have the mentality of 12 years who are permanently online. It's just embarrassing to watch.

[@mrconroy4672]

Wonder if there’s ever going to be a indie cartoon series that will rise against this that isn’t anime. I would honestly kill for that.

[@beauwalker9820]

​@@mrconroy4672 Try Monkey Wrench, Lackadaisy, Digital Circus, and others. There are quite a few other big indices now, though most are only a pilot now.

[@servicerifle16]

You basically described RWBY after Volume 3.

[@princecarmon5674]

@@mrconroy4672 there's the Lackadaisy pilot and if you want to read more of it its comic should be on deviantart

[@NaikoArt]

you have to be insane to think Hazbin Hotel is playing at the same league of Steven Universe, Owl House maybe, but SU clears them both, specially the first 2 seasons.

[@dragonempress8367]

"It's like the show doesn't know what it wants to be!" 👏🏾 That's it! You summed it up! There's a reason I have a hard time rewriting episode one, even with help!

[@iambob6590]

The name whispers an odd disjointed memory, just the name mind you... the pool is closed... Not sure what it means though.

[@NonsensicalPidgeon]

viz only writes about relationship and daddy issues

[@hoifzf]

Wow I guess the whole Angel conflict isn't something she's writing about

[@NonsensicalPidgeon]

@@hoifzf you mean that plot line that is a myriad of relationship and parental issues shock that totally defeats my point, eye roll.

[@hoifzf]

@@NonsensicalPidgeon so your complaining because of your taste not an issue 😑

[@NonsensicalPidgeon]

@@hoifzf projecting much?

[@hoifzf]

@@NonsensicalPidgeon gaslighting much?

[@Shard113]

Slaneeshi propaganda for kids. But also, Vivzie could never really write further than character designs. She has concepts that are cool but disjointed and she could never build a coherent world or a coherent, complex arc in her previous works. Also, every single time what we'd think that is going to be important and defining in a series is always relegated to being a backdrop prop. Like the threat, like hell itself, like what the characters should be like etc. What takes center stage is petty interpersonal drama that could be told as a story in any setting.

[@Bluesonofman]

As a writer I need someone like Vivzie who's only skill set is drawing as when I write everything is conversation heavy. I mean I am really good at lore if you want me to write a history book. But describing action I have issues with.

[@stephen7587]

People taking creative liberties with biblical lore is fine with me. Paradise Lost is just biblical fanfiction, but this is just weird. Why is Adam, the first man, not only addressed as such but he's also an angelic being responsible for exterminating overpopulation in hell? Even worse, why does he act no different from the demons? All of his mannerisms and crass behavior is no different from them. Is that intended to be the point? The plot being that heavenly beings are so far gone that they don't want sinners to repent is just weird, even weirder when the guy in charge is the first man to ever sin. It just doesn't work logically.

[@InquisitorJack]

Writers who can’t write characters in different voices is a very common problem in modern entertainment. Everyone has to be crass and snarky, no one can be laconic and serious

[@SomeKrieger]

1. Adam’s the chief war criminal probably because he just doesn’t care about sinners at all and that he’s just a dick. 2. After watching his scene and watching every other episode in the Hazbinverse, Adam is quite honestly the single worst person in the entire franchise. He’s self centered, ruthless, genocidal, arrogant, etc. most demons that have been fleshed out are actually just troubled, except for Val, Vox, and the third one. 3. The way Vivzie sets Heaven up, it’s meant to look like a decayed NG fascist regime where only the perfect can enter (which is why hell gets over populated) and heaven’s mindset on sinners boils down to, “they dug their grave so they’ll lay in it.” 4. Yeah I’m gonna be honest I don’t know if he commited the first sin in this universe but if he did, he more or less got a pardon.

[@marley7868]

@@SomeKrieger also eve ate the apple first honestly if you wanted a bastard why not kaine you know the first murderer

[@slicedtopieces]

It feels like some sort of crime against creation to compare Paradise Lost to Hazbin Hotel... 😵‍💫

[@debanydoombringer1385]

Paradise Lost wasn't about heaven and hell. It was an allegory criticizing those in power. My ancestor wrote it, not direct ancestor. This has no such allegory attached. Any literature critical of the government, rulers, or church was written like that and there's a lot of it during particular time periods. Do NOT attempt to compare that to a cartoon trying to be edgy.

[@CommissarDan]

Way too many shows being like Rick and Morty.

[@navarog378]

Hazbin isn't one of them though

[@CommissarDan]

@@navarog378 Isn't it ? How many shows follows the same formula ? Constant barrage of nonsense, vulgar, violence and no good role models. It used to be special, like South Park, now it's standart.

[@taddad2641]

dude is nothing like rick and morty......

[@KiraSlith]

​@@CommissarDanMaybe "new" Rick and Morty, right around the time a certain cucumber tangential joke was executed with the subtlety and stealth of a double homicide in packed train car. Old Rick and Morty wasn't like that.

[@MrSilentProtagonist]

Rick and Morty is a special kind of garbage. It is basically already zombie Simpsons after 2 seasons and it was never as good as the Simpsons at its best. Rick and Morty is a Steve Cutts' cartoon with tons of irony to hide its really shallow message.

[@Milk-Carton-III]

I’m Christian and when I saw the pilot, I thought the vulgarity was a bit much, but other than that, I was going to give it a chance. Then Helluva Boss came out and I gave that a chance, but after a while it gets very weary. Characters with same backstories as others, plots that don’t go anywhere, a bunch of edgy humor that makes episodes stagnant plot wise. Then, Hazbin hotel came out, I gave another chance, and find out there are still problems that I had originally. I really wanted to like this show but the story and pacing is horrendous. When they mentioned that we were going to meet the angels I was excited. I was expecting the hate on angels being that they had a “holier than thou” complex; only to realize that they are no better than demons.

[@BetamaxFlippy]

These versions of heaven and hell are allegories on what goes on for us on earth, this isn't "The Bible: the anime seires" or stuff like that.

[@Milk-Carton-III]

@@BetamaxFlippy The only allegory I took from is “anyone could be redeemed”. Which I find to be admirable, but also harmful. Like to what extent can someone be redeemed. Dictators, serial killers, genocidal maniacs. Maybe there can be an episode where Charlie realizes that anyone can be redeemed, only if they want to. Even though I don’t like the show, I love the character designs and animation, and it’s a testament to independent creators. I’m also happy that people do like this show.

[@BetamaxFlippy]

@@Milk-Carton-III Those limits are certainly going to be explored and Charlie WILL have character development coming to terms with the reality of things. There's a lot yet to be explored if only people weren't jumping at their throat from the start.

[@Milk-Carton-III]

@@BetamaxFlippy That is fair. I will not watch another episode however. Though, if I hear that it gets better/always had a good story, I will look into it again. I will keep tabs on it though to see how well it’s doing. And thank for letting me have an intellectual conversation. I was worried people would be berating my comment. Have a good day sir/madam. Ps: Sorry if I sound way too formal, I was raised like this.

[@Milk-Carton-III]

@@BetamaxFlippy I’m back, and I lied. I watched the entire season, and I loved it! The pacing and story issues I usually just chalk up to it being an eight episode season (which I find very stupid). As usual, the animation is downright tremendous. All I got to say is, you were right and I’m glad I gave this series another shot!

[@Colin-Sierra682]

So... they mentioned this briefly but the core of the issue to me is that this series started out as a KZbin series made by an indie creator something like a decade ago. When it came out, it was edging, creative and grabbed a lot of people's attention. And we all wanted to see more... that never came. This was supposed to be a project the creator could come back to when they felt like it through KZbin to show off their honestly solid art style and sense of humor. But when Amazon wanted to grab it up and uplift it the creator became beholden to deadlines, quotas and more. I'll be honest, I heard about this show being a thing but it was like five years ago through a good friend who was a fan of the original KZbin channel. On top of that, the real claim the creator had was the art style. Not the writing. The writing was interesting but nothing spectacular back then either. Likely because the creator was a creative artist with passable writing or music skills. But when that person with likely little to no training in music, writing, business or show management, or anything else you'd need to actually create a successful show gets gifted Amazon funding with little changed are we really surprised when we get what we got as a result? I'll give credit where its due. The art style is exaclty as i remember it... from over a decade ago. But as they wrapped up with it is old and late to the party. Had this show come out as it is some ten or fifteen years ago, it likely would've been a cult classic, a revolutionary show used to justify and spur on the start of the LGBT movement and anti-conservatism or anti-Christian movements. But now its just... there. Its disorganized, badly paced, edgy for the sake of edge, and tries to make points that at best now one disagrees with or at worst contradicts itself. So congratulations Amazon, you played yourself. You jumped at a flash in the pan creator giving them all the money they wamted to make a show without being proven or trained and you get a show that is way to late to its own party with a lot of problems. Par for the course, I guess.

[@GutsOfRivia]

Reject virgin Hazbin hotel embrace chad DOOM GUY.

[@KopperNeoman]

I dunno, me embracing Doomguy is kinda sinful, I'll get with Frieren.

[@Techsupport243]

I would pay to see doom guy unleashed into hell in this show. It would be hilarious. (Edited removed nonsense words I apparently added for no reason)

[@deadbeef576]

@@Techsupport243 Someone actually did that, and you can see it in a clip on youtube

[@deadbeef576]

Hazbin Hotel: Charlie meets Doom Slayer (extended)

[@NeinBreaker]

Throw V1 from Ultrakill in there as well. The entire place would be reduced to nothing in half the time.

[@Rey_Palpatine]

The funny thing is, according to the pilot, Jeffrey Dahmer is a celebrity in hell and has his own cooking show. So Hitler and a bunch of other infamous people who died should definitely be down there as sinners, too. I'm guessing they don't want to touch that subject in the actual official series tho

[@benjaminbaker3446]

The creators claim he got killed early, which is wasted potential. There has got to be at least like a million Nazis down there, plus they did all sorts of weird occult shit irl. Hitler could have been some antagonist or something but they didn't bother.

[@Rey_Palpatine]

@marshlindsey2763 A genocide of fictional characters is going to be seen differently from an irl genocide that impacted lots of real people. There's a bigger risk of backlash with the latter, depending on how you handle it. I remember there were some people who found it weird and True Crime Community -esque how the pilot referenced an actual cannibal murderer and depicted him in kind of a "sexy" style

[@manoftruth0935]

The moment I heard Hazbin Hotel was sold to A24, I knew it was only a matter of time before it became corporate cookie cutter schlock. Viv became the very thing she said she wanted to disrupt… or she can’t be as creative with Hazbin as she can with Helluva.

[@BetamaxFlippy]

She probably has more control on her series than any other show writer and/or director ever before, it's the closest one can get to fulfilling a dream. Again, we're only four episodes in and the second season already on its way, give it time and tell people to chill down.

[@manoftruth0935]

@@BetamaxFlippy it’s Amazon. They’ll rob you of benefits if you use the one site bathroom during your shift. That happened to me. Pretty much people treated those bathrooms as decorative in order to not get fired. And as for delivery drivers, if you are waiting for a red light, they mark you, especially if the idiot in front of you doesn’t move! This is the mindset of Amazon’s management model, all throughout its various divisions and owned companies. And to make things worse: Amazon video is about to run ads, even if you have prime unless you shell out 3 extra bucks USD a month! Let’s just hope A24 left a big loophole that can get Hazbin Hotel off of Amazon Prime at a moments notice and onto something more accessible.

[@metazoxan2]

IT's so sad to see this fall of a cliff after a really good pilot. I loved the line of ALastor that set up how great of a challange the idea of the hotel was where he talks about "These fellows already made their choice and ended up here ... there is no undoing what's been done". Which went with the idea this was truely hell. The place where those that ultimately reject redemption end up. But then Vizipop realized she's fallen in love with her characters and couldn't bear to leave them as even morally grey bad guys. So now there all just dammaged people who are good inside and just need to learn to love themselves or some crap. The world building is terrible and doesn't at all feel like a hell like it did in the pilot. It's just Earth but with more violence and a red tint on everything.

[@LordKamina2]

The pilot was great, had so much potential, loved the characters. But you can tell who ever was reigning in the creator didn't follow her to amazon, while also having a lot of commity descisions

[@debanydoombringer1385]

Everyone else was removed. She kicked them to the curb pretty quick. That's why it looks different. Different artists/ animators. All new VAs as well.

[@Sorain1]

@CipherRage-tp5ql Seems like it basically is the pilot for a totally different show, yeah. But a man once told me: when you change the working parts, you get a different machine.

[@reaps912]

The pool remains closed.

[@NoPantsBaby]

How you tackle a show like this is by focusing on the main hook for like 4-5 episodes. You know working on redeeming people. You actually tackle that issue raelly hard. Most of the candidates fail because they are fucking monsters but one of the side characters is actually making strides in each episode. Then about 2/3rd through the season comes the big reveal. That side character actually manages to redeem themselves.... but nothing happens. There is no call from heaven. Turns out it's all a lie. There is no actual road to redemption. Then you can go several ways with the story. Main character gets depressed and gives up, it's all meaningless. Gets motivated by the one soul she redeemed not giving up and still acting good despite there being no reward for it in the end. Rallies hell's armies to fight against heaven. Then during the battle discovers her mother has actually taken over heaven and imprisoned Lucifer. Turns out she and the angels struck a deal to depose him and use hell as a place to generate misery and pain that feeds them and grants them eternal life. Turns out there is no road to redemption because one of the main bunch is actually pulling strings behind the scenes and has struck a deal with the angels never to let a single soul escape because he loves hell and as long as he maintains the status quo he can feed his darkest desires. Kills the redeemed character but then a higher power steps in bringing that character back to life and smites the fallen angels guarding heaven's gates. Turns out her mom had been repenting for the past 7 years to gain the attention of the higher power after she discovered what was going on but her enemy had already grown to strong. Lucifer shows up and banishes the redeemed character to heaven. Covering up the fact redemption is possible at all. He actually likes being king of hell and won't let anyone leave his kingdom because without them he'd be left behind all alone or some other sad shit you get my point. You do stuff that makes for a good show where the main protagonist faces challenges, achieves initial victory, is brought back down after a crushing defeat but ultimately achieves their goal with the aid of their allies. There is so much to do here but it seems they are mainly concerned with establishing the immediate premise that no the angels are in fact just evil and the demons are also evil but they're gay and damaged so they get a pass.

[@kielbasamage]

Gotta say, I really dig that second one. A shame it's probably gonna go "Actually all the moral people are way worse than you, so not only should you not change, you not changing gives you the moral high ground and makes you BETTER than them!" and have Charlie turn Hell into a super fun party paradise that's so cool and hip and shit that Angels start tearing their clothes off and jumping in while the one guy looks around and whines. You know what I mean...

[@JLCL01]

I do like the twist that it didnt matter since Heaven didnt actually expect someone from Hel to actually change.

[@minespatch]

That's a major problem I had with Helluvqah boss. Pilot and first episode were decent... Then second episode went downhill with the focus on Blitzo's employer. That storyline should've been explored in episode 7 or later, not so early in the series.

[@LuciaFinstra]

Vivzie should be taking notes! :)

[@blackchickiedee7]

That's what I thought was going to happen. That heaven and hell both were in cahoots by creating a messed up, corrupt system that no one is able to get redeemed not because it's impossible but because higher ups were keeping things that way. Before the show Lucifer and Lilith were going to be the power couple where the King enjoyed his position and only kept sinners down there to fill a status quo. He didn't hate Charlie, but he didn't believe in her cause either. And that circles back to Alastor, who was a chaotic neutral character with a dark and mysterious past but found out while being down there, discovered how corrupt the system was so he really was there at the hotel because he was bored and had nothing else to do. But no, we got instead was the literal king of hell - arguably the strongest character down there getting into a d!ck measuring contest with Alastor which makes no sense. Their interaction and duet was just added for fan art fodder, I'm calling it, the angels not knowing how someone gets into heaven, little to no character development, basic humor, lack luster animation, stale plot points, and a protagonist who is so inept it gets annoying. Even Alastor, got a try hard, edge lord treatment and that wasn't like what he was in the pilot at all. Not to mention, the story seemingly is going for "aww but, no one meant to be bad, sin was put into the world by a mistake. Lucifer was just trying to do everyone a favor :3 OwO" okay, if sinning is seen as a mistake and no one knew any better then what is the point of redemption? Like, jeez and I understand that maybe the creator had to change some things because apparently she was only greenlit for two seasons but that's on her. Amazon said she was difficult to work with so instead of getting three, she is allowed two(not sure if that's true or not). but I feel like SOMETHING could have been salvaged. Not only is the show rushed, but it uses emotional manipulation to make it seem like it's trying to care about the plot and its characters. Also, it feels like it's catered more so for teenagers and not adults

[@Tomeroche]

Imagine a series where the protags see demons as this and it shows them as really cool and just misunderstood and they need to help the demons succeed. Then once they win the mask comes off and they show their real evil colors and that it was all a lie, and the moral of the story is don't trust demons they tell sweet lies to lure you in.

[@BetamaxFlippy]

Don't worry that's not what's gonna happen.

[@jasonsantos3037]

The humor of this show feels like came out 20 years ago It just feels like you see shit out adult swim Comedy Central or MTV back in the day but this show is woke as hell so it's fucking obvious.

[@Rastek19]

Everyone on hell is gay... What could vivziepop possibly mean by this?

[@I_Dont_Believe_In_Salad]

It really goes against her tweet where she said gay people don't end up in hell.

[@godzillaboy011]

Easy, HOMOPH*BIA

[@hoifzf]

I don't know it Probably represents how evangelical Christians view things..... maybe that's just me though people can make art about something they disagree with

[@christopherbravo1813]

probably that God is evil because he designed humans with two distinct genders.

[@MachineMan-mj4gj]

Vivzie secret EvangeliCon confirmed!

[@danielvereb4579]

Having Hitler in there would have been hilarious.

[@BetamaxFlippy]

Now THAT is overdone and outdated as a premise.

[@artistanthony1007]

​@@BetamaxFlippyThey're talking about a cameo to acknowledge he still exists, Mayberry literally said he's in Hell but Viv is so scared to even show him, WE DONT EVEN SEE HIM IN HB!

[@BetamaxFlippy]

@@artistanthony1007 He is mentioned along with Epstein in ep 1 of Helluva Boss.

[@akumaking1]

Maybe if ViziePop focused more on Hazbin Hotel and didn't create the Helluva Boss Spinoff the show might have been better.

[@davidfrancisco3502]

That garden tool supported the cancellation of Scott Cawthorn.

[@kieranadamson3224]

​@@davidfrancisco3502she what? Oh for fuck's sake!

[@davidfrancisco3502]

​@@kieranadamson3224The same cancel pigs Vizzie Pop is so desperate on grabbing as a fan base have tried to cancel her multiple times as well.

[@selpharessecret3899]

@@davidfrancisco3502 oh I remember that as I pointed out that she is a hypocrite there.

[@davidfrancisco3502]

@@selpharessecret3899 Being edgy at this point is making superheroines like Wonder Woman quitting the vigilante lifestyle to become wives and moms.

[@archades115]

A genuine pity. The pilot had real potential. A story of redemption that shows us that we make our own hell, we make hell for each other.

[@BetamaxFlippy]

How has that changed?

[@archades115]

@@BetamaxFlippy In these newer episodes, the message more or less presents evil as good, and good as evil. In the pilot, that was not necessarily the case.

[@patchmoulton5438]

​@@archades115It didn't even have the overpopulation thing either, it was just Charlie wanting to (naively) redeem some of the demons while no one else thought it was possible. Thats it, thats all it needed. Hell, I thought it would have just been Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends but in hell and would have been fine with that.

[@whitemagus2000]

There was a C.S.Lewis story about hell being awful simply because of how the sinners treat each other. The great divorce I think. In fact in that one sinners could repent and go to heaven, but it was very rare since most were just trying to game the system.

[@larrytherustyboii7442]

​@@patchmoulton5438I'm pretty sure the pilot said the reason for killing sinners was overpopulation but then episode 1 changed that, much like how the showed retcon a lot of things from the pilot which is just a whiplash to my brain cuz episode 1 relies on you to already know the characters from the pilot but the pilot ain't even canon by that point so wtf is even real?

[@PelinalDidNothingWrong]

Here's the thing: I love VivziePop's artstyle and animation style with her character designs BUT GOD DAMN the writing fucking sucks. This show would've been groundbreaking in the early 2000's but now,it's just kinda meh

[@mytruepower2]

There's lots of weird, inaccurate, fictional representations of the afterlife in pieces of art that I like, like Beetlejuice, Yu Yu Hakusho and Skyrim, and it's all in good fun, but if a show can't decide what it wants to be, or can't follow through on its stated premise, that's a more serious issue. The first trailers that I saw for this show looked like it would be a sort of based comedy, mocking the worst elements of our society, not by showing where they end up, but by showing what the place they end up in is like with them in it. The focus could have been on examining the souls of the people there, to see what obstacles stand between them and redemption, or it could have been a darkly comedic story of attempting redemption and failing, because each of them persistently makes each other's lives worse, due to their failings. I would have been on board for any of those kinds of shows, but I've already seen lots of shows that are all over the place, and full of just random nonsense. Also, if your show is suited to 7-10 minute blocks of time, and someone gives you 24 minutes to work with, just do a bunch of shorter segments and have a few per show. Animaniacs did it.

[@TheCoolerDrilis]

_Skyrim_ has its own cosmology and mythology, how is its representation of the afterlife "inaccurate"--?

[@mytruepower2]

@@TheCoolerDrilis Well, no piece of fiction has an afterlife that's inaccurate relative to itself. I mean by comparison to existing reality, of course.

[@DefaultFlame]

The point about the episode length is very spot on. If you look at the pilot it was longer put the pacing was much better, like a double 15 minute episode. Most of the Helluva Boss episodes are 15-18 minutes.

[@JosephStalin-cv5gf]

The most interesting thing for me is the retelling of Lucifer’s story, he was kicked out of heaven for being a rebel/dreamer, instead of his pride. Pride is the sin of Lucifer and pride is motto of the LGBTQAIP. I think it’s a deliberate retelling of the Bible to vindicate the LGBTQAIP lifestyle.

[@RaphaelCGA]

That retelling is basically from Lucifer's POV. So it's majorly biased from the jump. I suspect that even in Vizi's helloverse that story is not quite the true story but merely the setup.

[@chuckwood3426]

According to the extended lore in the spinoff Helluva Boss. Lucifer is still the Demon Lord of Pride. This retelling is just his own propaganda to put himself in a better light.

[@angelangelis8362]

@@chuckwood3426Or in this case, the retelling by Lilith. She's the one that told Charlie this story and put the dream in her head. Viz has already said Lilith is the one that "wears the pants" in the family. I can't wait to see if they go full girl boss with her and accidently make this all her fault.

[@FunnyStripes]

I'm of the opinion that you people are giving way, way too much credit and vastly overestimating Viv's writing abilities. She's amazing at anything animation, drawing and all that, but she's dogshit at anything plot, storytelling, and such. Based on the rest of what we can see, I seriously doubt that what she tried to do here was pulling a clever "unreliable narrator", and instead think it's much more realistic and believable that it's a far more simplistic, direct attempt of worldbuilding and explaining the story. That the narration should be taken at face value and without pinches of salt, and hence that all of this is for real some old and trite "le bad guyz are actually le good guyz, and vice versa!!11!!", without any depth whatsoever.

[@BetamaxFlippy]

These aren't the heave, hell and earth of our world, they're a complete different take to build a new and different story. You're reading too much into it and comparing it to our versions of those things.

[@Malefactor]

"How do you redeem someone like Adolf Hitler" Watching how things have been playing out in the real world seems to have done the trick.

[@malaficus]

Easly: he regret what he did and start acting like a better person for a century or two. God is very forgiving to those who repent. Of course if your only goal is to escape punishment instead of wanting to be a better person your staying in hell.

[@juliovictormanuelschaeffer8370]

Smiling Friends and Bojack Horseman are this show, but GOOD.

[@nuralibolataev4474]

>Show is set in hell >90℅ of the population is gay What did they mean by this?

[@gamingforever9121]

Exactly what you think.😂

[@OnlyPedosCanTagMe]

Well, if you're gonna suffer for eternity, you might as well try something new, aka: a straight dude trying gay shit and finding shit out about himself. It isn't hard to think of explanations😑

[@maravreloaded]

Aaaaand, cut.

[@ThanosDestroyeryearsago]

There’s gay people in heaven in the Hazbin Hotel Universe. Ain’t that serious lil bro

[@maravreloaded]

​@@ThanosDestroyeryearsagoyou mean the "fallen angel" who was almost killed?

[@Crowbars357]

To be fair, the lefty version of heaven (Hell in this show) is probably depicted accurately.

[@Sujad]

I thought it was hilarious that hell is full of the alphabet crowd. I wonder what the spicy painter is doing in Jannah.

[@faithfulw1shes]

Bahahaha fr

[@avivastudios2311]

2:16 This pretty much sums up my problem with the conflict. It makes it really hard to care about Charlies's goal when the danger and evil of hell is played as a joke.

[@JennyJohne]

It's overall hard to care for her goal, since If they depict heaven with angels....is there also a god? And If there is...and he never did anything about the extermination each year....does that mean he doesn't care about that? And If thats the case....is redemption even possible? Because it sounded like over the highest angel we saw, there would be a force even higher and if that told her she should do this extermination each year...Like i said, can we believe charlie can even reach her goal?

[@MercenaryX21]

The best part of a busy pop is that if you don't agree with her 100% she'll block you on Twitter. You don't even have to make a comment you can just say that is terrible and shocking and she'll miss construded as you going against her. Fun fact also is that vizzy pop is a freakin hypocrite since she tried to call all the people doxing Scott coffin for being conservative in the slightest as righteous and must do so but when people try to dock her and they try to do the same thing to her she basically cried out victim. and that's why I don't respect her. I hope she gets canceled because people tried to cancel her and Scott coffin and when she got the same thing happened to her that she piled on Scott coffin for she is the biggest lying hypocrite in the world

[@artistanthony1007]

She blocked me and never cared to respond or tell me what my ideas and thought process was good but I dont care, I honestly dont because she's immature and I'm younger than her, she has no business to act like this to someone younger.

[@Jdudec367]

No that only happens if you really annoy her, she already feels overwhelmed as is so that`s fair really. No she won`t lmao. She isn`t a hypocrite, she didn`t say it was righteous or was deserved though she just criticized his actions was all, she was a victim. You don`t respect her cause of your own misunderstandings? Of course. Lmao what? That is dumb of you to want. She didn`t pile on him lmao, she just criticized him. She isn`t a lying hypocrite, actually understand what that means.

[@peachybunny1875]

Also she got offended by the "My name is Caine, I am your b" meme after The Amazing Digital Circus released.

[@maltardraco9555]

The angels are obviously the good guys.

[@grzegorzcembruch2834]

Alastor is the exception. Best boy

[@DanaSarah9904]

Is it just me or do all the characters look and sound the same? Between the limited palette of 3-4 colors and the cut-n-paste approach to “drawing” each body, I seriously can’t tell anyone apart. Super skinny severely drawn red/black/white/grey gay 2-D person who swears a lot and has a drug problem and/or parental issues? Yes, you’ll blend in just fine

[@Newageescapism]

"How do you redeem Hitler?" You don't because he's not in Hell, the people he opposed are. Not my take, that's the show.

[@BigBroTejano]

To be fair, we do see (in Helluva Boss) that human souls can go to hell for something like murder without them needing to also be some form of LGBT. So Hitler could be in hell along with all the people he opposed.

[@malaficus]

Or he was killed in an extermination.

[@giulizpaviz6381]

What's funny is that in episode 3 it's (almost) like they are showing that sone people cannot be redeemed (aka Valentino). But it's just mentioned and then never talked about it again (even if that was clearly a big deal for the premise)

[@Fulgrim2]

So it’s “Safe Edgy: The Series” I take it? As a champion of Slaanesh I’d be embarrassed to seen with those so called “daemons”.

[@fren111]

I vaguely remember in the pilot episode that the genocidal war was a common occurrence, due to the demons themselves who formed gangs and eventually turned into cluster fuck It seems that the ideas were falling apart as the project progressed.

[@DaMaster012]

You know, speaking as a Christian from the outside looking in, there's a kernel of a legitimately good idea in Hazbin Hotel about seeking redemption, but it's being presented with a subjectivist, baby's first Nietzsche prerogative with a side order of a messiah complex that is endemic to leftists. It doesn't sound like there's any broken heart, contrite spirit, undoing of evils, and repentance, but just "feel better about yourself, and if you feel redeemed, you're redeemed. Feeling thy feelings have made thee feel whole. *_FEeEeEeINGS!!!"_* before it gets distracted by multiplying plot threads, the most sporadic musical numbers this side of My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, and, uh, "The Bill Clinton Experience" jokes. Ironically, the only true path to redemption is through Jesus Christ, but Vizziepop would most likely try to spit in His face in response to His extended hand, because, ultimately, _His_ ways aren't _her_ ways. Also, Hell being filled with non-straights and furries is... not gonna lie, pretty God damn based...

[@Brutalyte616]

Then you're missing the point. The characters don't know if redemption is possible, what the criteria would be, or if Heaven would ever accept a Sinner that's already been consigned to Hell. Charlie is quite an optimist, as she states quite openly in Episode 3 that she 'trusts everyone', but there's another thing; Charlie never once says that everyone can be redeemed, but everyone deserves the chance to try and pursue redemption if they sincerely want to do it. Part of that is her extending a hand to accept even the most token effort of repentance, because as Charlie says 'redemption starts with saying 'I'm sorry' and admitting that you were wrong'. Angel Dust and Sir Pentious are the only guests in the hotel thus far, and it's made very apparent that Angel has yet to actually start down the path of redemption, mainly because he's still stuck in his contract with Valentino, but also because he doesn't regret his lifestyle of sex, drugs and violence and doesn't believe in Charlie's cause yet. However, Pentious shows the first steps toward improvement, as he's willing to apologize for past transgressions and try to better himself now that he has people to support him, but it's obvious that old habits die hard, because Pentious has been in Hell a long time, longer even than Alastor, and he is still under the impression that everyone is out to get him and that displays of kindness from everyone except Charlie are just deceptions meant to make him lower his guard and feel vulnerable. Even if he's hit rock bottom and genuinely accepted Charlie's offer of trying to redeem himself, he's not going to be redeemed overnight, or potentially ever if the theories going around are accurate. On that note, there's a detail that everyone seems to gloss over with Hazbin Hotel; God doesn't seem to be around. Instead of God creating the world and humanity, it's the angels who've done that, and Lucifer's sin isn't rebellion against God, but simply offering humanity the knowledge of good and evil and the free will that comes with that. Theories abound about this, from Lucifer and Lilith lying to Charlie, God not existing whatsoever, the angels killing or dethroning God, God having simply abandoned the universe, or my personal favorite; God refusing to do anything to stop the angels when they do something wrong because, like Charlie, He values free will and has faith that the angels will ultimately be redeemed and that Lucifer's fall and the atrocities being committed by Heaven are part of the process. Regardless, it's VERY obvious that there is something fundamentally wrong with Heaven in this universe, and the problems seem to be stemming from the flaws of the angels and not God Himself. After all, Lucifer proved he was flawed, so why wouldn't the rest of the angels also be flawed in some way? Even ignoring the biblical angels who were cast out for siding with Lucifer or falling in love with humans, we see the Cherubs in Helluva Boss getting kicked out of Heaven for accidentally killing a human who was going to Hell regardless(with an implication that the Cherubs were hired to keep said human alive and miserable for as long as possible so he could do SOME good before he went to Hell), angels like Adam being created from obviously flawed human souls, and the angels being able to be killed by a Sinner trying to protect her loved ones using angelic weaponry. If anything, I consider Hazbin Hotel a criticism of the sanctimonious behavior and hypocrisy, rather than a fundamental rejection of religious orthodoxy, because the message is about forgiveness, redemption, and trying to be a better person, and how denying those things, abusing power, or handing out disproportionate punishment is wrong. And really, that last part tends to ring true with Hazbin more than any other, because being sent to Hell for eternity and being forced to deal with every other horrible and evil person there is _supposed_ to be the final punishment, and one that gets worse and worse over time as more and more sinners pile up in Hell. Obliterating the souls of those who might have been in Hell for a day after a drug binge or suicide certainly seems to be a disproportionate and poorly allocated punishment when people like Alastor and Valentino have been running around Hell for decades.

[@larrytherustyboii7442]

​@@Brutalyte616the fact that the show says that even the angels don't know what gets people into heaven is the single most dumbest thing I've ever heard. Like you can't convince me that the rulers of heaven that existed since time immemorial haven't the faintest clue on what allows people into heaven. How in the fuck did their little utopia even function with guys like Adam existing in their domain? Call it an allegory or whatever it is that allows such terrible writing to exist, it just doesn't work my friend.

[@DaMaster012]

@@Brutalyte616 Jesus, now I know what it's like to on the receiving end of my mini-essay responses. Buckle up... and bite the pillow. Okay, so, the whole point about obtaining redemption while in Hell is that in Christian canon, it's impossible; Hell is where the most evil of evil souls go specifically because they _cannot_ be redeemed, because they refused every opportunity -- not just in the mortal life, but the post-mortal life (aka "purgatory"), and the resurrected life after The Second Coming (where everyone who ever lived on Earth will be resurrected; this is mentioned in Revelations) -- to repent. That's why it's said the only one true unforgivable sin is to deny The Holy Spirit, because it entails having immutable proof of the divinity of The Father, The Son, and The Witness, and STILL continuing to rebel against them. This is partially why Lucifer and all his followers were cast into outer darkness for eternity. Hazbin Hotel clearly operates on a different premise -- souls in Hell can be redeemed -- so, okay; I can suspend my disbelief for a moment to buy that. Now that begs other questions, such as: Where is Jesus Christ? One of His names is "The Redeemer" and He has similar Gifts of Knowledge as His Father, so he would know that there are souls In Hell that can be saved; so why isn't He working to save them? Why are the angels, who would follow Christ, not sending missionaries to administer to these lost souls to help them find their way back home to their Father in Heaven? How, oh how, for the literal love of God, do the angels -- who would also presumably be administering to the humans on Earth -- _NOT_ know how a soul can be redeemed?! Where is God in all this? Pick at that thread, and the whole sweater of worms starts to unravel. Why did Lucifer not intervene or counter-attack when armies of angles were invading to slaughter demons in his "kingdom" on an annual basis until his daughter sang him a song, especially considering how powerful and effective at fighting angels he is? How is Hell even experiencing an over-population crisis in the first place, when: A, spirits are created by God, so He would have to be content with letting them be born in Hell, and; B, Hell is established in the show itself to have a _rampant_ homosexual population, so how are they even supposed to reproduce at replacement levels? If Hell is repopulating so fast that the angels fear a conquest of Heaven, ergo the purges, why not just wipe out all of Hell? They angels have no reason not to, and for, what, five hundreds years, the demons didn't even know how to fight back. How are people in either Heaven or Hell supposed to die, anyway? They are realms that exist in a dimension beyond the space that we mortals live in, populated by spiritual beings who cannot "die" in the way we humans comprehend death. What happens to a demon's spirit when they're killed in Hell? Where does it go? Double Hell? AND HOW THE FUCK DID CARMILLA GET ALL THOSE ANGELIC WEAPONS?! This is why world building is so foundational to stories; it establishes what the rules are, so it's apparent what is and is not possible, so the parameters and stakes of any given conflict are clear, and the audience has a ground on which to be emotionally invested. Whether you think every word of it is fiction or gospel truth (I think the latter), Christian canon is very complicated and interwoven. If you're going to build a story that takes from that canon but doesn't operate on the same rules, fine, but you have to come up with functional lore to replace what you're leaving out, otherwise your canon is a nonfunctional, nonsensical mess. This is why you have so many fabricated fan theories flying around; it's a desperate attempt to patch all the holes in Hazbin Hotel's universe, because we, even on the most subconscious level, experience cognitive dissonance when engaging with a fictional world that does not make sense, because even if we don't understand it, everything in our world does. I saw this exact same shit with My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, where the bronies would try and concoct explanations for the series' increasingly, appallingly shoddy world building and character actions, many of which started with: _"Hckwell, in _*_MYYYYYY_*_ head canon..."_ sending me into fits of apoplectic rage at their solipsism, or would flat out say "just ignore the glaring, inconsolable plot holes. Stop asking questions! Just consume pony product, then get excited for next pony product!" which was even more offensive. There is very clearly something fundamentally wrong with not just Hazbin Hotel's version of Heaven, but the entire universe. And the poorer the writing is, the more you can see the intent of the writer behind it; as I put it, "You can see the uncreative process through the plot holes." And from what I see, Hell in Hazbin Hotel isn't Hell; it's Vivziepop's ideologically fantastical, psychosexually idealized, daydream depiction of Earth, with a romanticized, childish veneer of Hell and her non-straight/furry fetishes pasted over it. Vivziepop is the same person who can't write a story that isn't a vessel for her own intimate partner drama or her daddy issues. I have no reason to believe her world building is any less self-insert wish fulfillment.

[@Brutalyte616]

@@DaMaster012 Well let's break this down. First, the fact that God is not mentioned ANYWHERE in Hazbin as an actual character, at least so far, implies this is already a departure from the Abrahamic notion of Heaven and Hell because we're not entirely certain God exists in this setting; it might literally just have been the angels in the beginning. Further, Lucifer is consigned to Hell, not because of rebelling against God or even Heaven, but because he gave humans free will, the knowledge of good and evil, and the capacity to commit evil that comes with that, although in another departure from the Abrahamic sources we're NOT entirely certain that Adam actually ate the forbidden fruit Eve offered; after all, Adam is in Heaven despite being a prick with virtually no self-awareness, so it's entirely possible that he's only in Heaven because he literally cannot understand the difference between good and evil, but that's getting a bit off topic and into speculative territory. In another departure from Abrahamic sources, humans can become angels and demons, which isn't really a thing because angels and demons are supposed to be distinct entities from humanity. Furthermore, there's no mention of fallen angels outside of Lucifer or Vaggie, although the Cherubs from Helluva Boss ARE a thing to consider as evidence of other angels falling, but I'm sticking largely to Hazbin's direct lore and only referencing Helluva Boss when absolutely necessary. As for the matter of overpopulation in Hell? Well there's two things to consider. The first is that, as far as we know, Sinners can't reproduce in Hell; we know in Vizie's discussions about Hazbin that family members sometimes meet up in Hell as Angel is noted to have met his father and brother in Hell while his mother and sister are in Heaven, and Carmilla's daughters are probably either adopted or her actual children from her mortal life, but we've never actually seen Sinners have children outside of Adam and Lilith, and Vizie notes that Charlie is well over 100 years old, so clearly there are some issues with Sinners having in Hell. Hellborn can have children, but unlike Sinners they are mortal and can die from mundane injury, old age, and sickness, and thus their numbers are naturally kept in check by sheer attrition. So the issue there is that literally every soul denied entry into Heaven is stuck in the uppermost ring of Hell as an immortal demon that can grow in power indefinitely, which leads into the next point. Charlie explains that Lilith was rallying the Sinners together and making Hell more and powerful and organized, which is the reason that Sera ordered the Extermination in the first place; Sinners were supposed to languish in Hell for eternity, not get strong enough to potentially threaten Earth or Heaven, and so Adam and the Exorcists were assigned to permanently kill Sinners in Hell by using angelic weaponry, which can apparently kill a soul permanently, although Sir Pentious's revival calls that notion into doubt, but that brings me to a very key point; the angels never planned for any of this and are just making shit up as they go. Adam and Lilith were supposed to be the first humans, but Lilith rejected Adam. Clearly, the angels did not expect this, otherwise they wouldn't have made the two so dysfunctional. Their solution was to create Eve as a compatible wife instead and to simply ignore Lilith, but then Lucifer got involved and introduced the idea of free will and the capacity to perform evil, which the angels once again had no plan for and apparently Hell was created entirely by accident from Lucifer introducing the concept of evil into the universe. So they banished Lucifer and Lilith to Hell and sent all of the souls rejected from Heaven to Hell, but the angels don't actually oversee this process and there's a good reason for that; their entire notion of good and evil is based on the behavior of those who get sent to Heaven or Hell, because nobody ever actually laid down the law of what was good or evil because Lucifer created the concept of evil by accident. At risk of waxing poetic, this SCREAMS of the absence of a supreme universal authority to arbitrate what is good and what is evil; in other words, Hazbin Hotel is a godless universe where either God has already left the building or was never there to begin with, and that causes problems because the angels are very obviously flawed and limited individuals and not perfect God-like beings. They are making shit up as they go along, because they went off-script millennia ago thanks to Lucifer's chaotic and unpredictable nature. So really this just boils down to a vision of a fictional universe where nobody really understands the universe and just plays the cards they're dealt, which is a good way to look at it all even from an Abrahamic perspective; God is supposed to be the only truly perfect all-knowing all-powerful entity in the universe, and the angels are obviously not God nor are they objectively perfect for what they are, as Lucifer's actions and the inability of the angels to fully understand and deal with those consequences demonstrates this both in-universe and in the context of scripture. Narratively speaking, this is about showing how everyone is flawed and makes mistakes, and Charlie's message is that everyone should have a chance to make up for those mistakes, even if some people are irredeemable, and that those mistakes are not absolute; Sera having to live with the knowledge that she was totally wrong about Sinners and she potentially has millions, if not billions of deaths on her conscience is a fantastic example of this. This is a fictional setting meant to entertain, not form a religion out of, but it's also endeavoring to teach ultimately good and moral behavior in between all the sex, violence, and dad jokes. Am I saying Hazbin Hotel is beyond reproach? Fuck no. Case in point? The Exorcists have been at this presumably for decades, and only now does it come to light that angels can be hurt and killed by their own weapons? THAT is a plot hole, especially with how Carmilla acquires her angelic weaponry; the Exorcists just leave shit laying around because they're careless. Are you seriously telling me that nobody thought to try and fight back with an angelic weapon before this? Either the Extermination hasn't been going on nearly as long as we think, or everyone is an idiot, and both issues need to be addressed, otherwise it's a unresolved plot hole. THAT is the shit I'm concerned with, and not the religious connotations of the show itself; I don't care about that because I reject organized religion in favor of personal faith and beliefs on principle(don't ask, because I'm not here to preach about my personal beliefs beyond that one statement). My only concern is evaluating Hazbin Hotel on its own merits, and not fixating on how it's not biblically accurate and how that alone is SOMEHOW what makes the show fall apart. Much like Dante Aligheri's Divine Comedy, it's religious fanfiction that shouldn't be taken as gospel or meant to be rock-solid in its worldbuilding after 1 season that condensed six months of time into the span of 4 hours and 30 minutes of animated Broadway musical numbers.

[@johnnylight0]

Calling it a reddit show is pretty spot on

[@ebonywilliams203]

I would say it's a Tumblr show but Reddit also works

[@HunterStiles651]

@@ebonywilliams203 Reddit is basically Tumblr 2.0 at this point. The Tumblr Exodus ended with a lot of these cretins going to Reddit and doing to that site what they did to Twitter.

[@Sorain1]

@@ebonywilliams203 A lot of Tumblr went to Reddit, so that checks out to me.

[@jeremyrichard2722]

Arch, let me give you some information on this one before I go into my usual rant. The person who did this is named Vivienne Medreno who was born in 1992 (I double checked the age). Which means she was a kid during the extreme comics boom and probably had ideas like this initially through noticing things like "Spawn" and probably playing "Disgaea" in like 2003 when that came out. Indeed "Disgaea" is the closest thing to the vibe of this particular universe and how it presents things. Your basically looking at a girl who game up during Gen-X rebellion to things like conservative christianity, saw the rebellion to that stuff, wanted to be that and thought it was cool, and then by the time she became an adult had no real enemies to fight and this is an attempt to do that without really understanding any of it combined with a bunch of other "present day" raging that makes it even more funny and misguided conceptually as a lot of the problems this is meant to address don't actually exist, and actually the people empowered by this are more or less the same kind of problem the conservative Christians were. I doubt the creator would see it this way however, but even if they deny it I think it's most accurate to say this is pretty much Disgaea, combined with what was "Edgy" in "Spawn" and "Supernatural" with a lot of queer theory thrown in, and a lack of the writing ability of any of the things that inspired it. Oh and also I'd imagine given the age involved she probably also read a lot of "Edward Lee" and how he presented things in his "City Infernal" books as that is not bad, and was really popular with a specific age group of edgelords she falls into the demographic of. Another thing to understand is that this is also weirdly part of an existing universe. See there is that whole series "Helluva Boss" which wasn't mentioned here (unless I missed it) by this same creator. The original idea was for Hazbin Hotel to be the core series, but for whatever reason "Helluva Boss" got financed first despite it being conceived as a spin off. As I understand "Hotel" is about the overall concepts, or was intended to be, and "Boss" was supposed to focus more on the internal factions of hell. Given the way things worked out though and a lack of practice (I'm sure she'll get better over time) I think she ran into the problem of trying to do the world building and such in reverse order, expecting people to know both series.... even if I'd argue "Helluva Boss" mostly became known due to the Hellhound Secretary (I think her name was Loona) who a certain group consider "the sexiest furry ever". I need to re-watch Hazbin because I fell asleep during parts of it so I won't comment on the specifics, maybe it was better than I thought, and I'm not trying to just knock the creator just give my impressions and analysis based on having seen a lot of concepts a lot like this already. At any rate as far as Hell "just being a society" I think given that the Angels are basically being portrayed as at least as bad as the demons, I think that is kind of the point. All of the gay and neuro divergent people being there is probably because that's seen as empowering, and also the kinds of people traditionally outcast from society and sent to hell, and part of the "edgy" audience the creator wanted to appeal to to make certain statements, which as mentioned in the video don't exactly need to be made, and are actually sort of counter productive to making anything better at this moment as the gay rights movement was won in the creator's youth, and has since become more an exercise in insanity and forcing itself on other rather than about tolerance and nobody caring about what two people do together in their own homes. I will also be honest in saying that having seen a ton of versions of "hipster takes on hell" (I can list more I'm sure if I really try) that the question to "where are people like Hitler", the answer might very well be that they are in heaven since the Angels are not being portrayed as outright good guys. A common twist to something like this would be that since people like him committed their crimes against the kinds of people we're supposed to be empathizing with... you know what would be his magenta triangle crowd and so on, maybe he was right in the eyes of "heaven" as he was in fact doing it for Christian reasons and well... Jews deny certain truths and so on. Perhaps he got right through those pearly gates, or found "redeeming himself" relatively trivial. Doing that would be as edgy as all hell and bashing uh "the right sort of people" ... granted it wouldn't be new, it's been done before. One of the oldest questions of this kind of fiction is specifically "how would you react if someone you felt truly evil was in heaven, nor not suffering in hell next to you?". It can be a way of setting up certain kinds of logic and thought processes.... but it remains to be seen if this writer has based this on the sources I think they have, and wants to be that intentionally edgy and clever as obviously such a reveal is going to get all sorts of attention. If you want people to cheer for the demons, going after a bunch of Angels who thought Hitler was righteous, while combining at best mildly or moderately bad people who were just gay or something (some perhaps sent there by him) would certainly get a lot of people going, and have massive appeal to a certain crowd using real world logic to make it very clear who the writer wants us to see as the bad guys. That said it should also be noted (if anyone bothered to read this) is that there is also a concept in religion called "Perdition" which is a state one enters where they have done so much evil no redemption is possible. It is equally possible they might just want to introduce this concept later and say there were people like Adolf who are in an extra special place where they don't even get a chance of redemption as it's not possible. That said, understand though that one of the first thoughts I had when I ran into these concepts is that the characters we're following might just THINK they are demons. Remember there is a concept called "Purgatory" from which people are punished for a while and then eventually redeemed and move on, that is what this concept is about. What if the eventual twist is people only think this is heaven and hell and the entire mythology is a deception to facilitate such things and for example there is an actual traditional god and devil, and all of this happens in between with everyone being judged until they redeem themselves, and certain really bad people just never appear because well... the literally did get dumped straight into the lake of fire or something. I do not know if this writer is that creative or knows this much though, as the concept is so purgatory like it's almost obvious, and I wouldn't see why they wouldn't just set the story in purgatory if they were going to do that unless it's supposed to be a big surprise somehow "it's not bad writing and not knowing anything about this, I intended it all along!".

[@odinsrensen7460]

I didn't know "hipster takes on hell" was a genre, but it sounds very Neil Gaiman.

[@DarkVeghetta]

Good read. Also, you're not the only one that sees the Purgatory parallels, but the same issues you highlighted remain - why not come out and say it, unless it's a big reveal later? I still hope the story is deeper than it seems to be, but only time shall tell if Vizie is playing 4D chess or was manic when she wrote the script.

[@TheBurg229]

The saddest thing is that the pilot was actually pretty good

[@grzegorzcembruch2834]

Alastor is the reason I first liked the Hazbin hotel pilot. The rest was good but none on his level. A sinner as vile if not more than actual demons opens interesting ideas as well asking him insane makes me adore his dandy personality. What about you?