Hazbin Hotel Review, Niffty and World Building

I saw the final two episodes a few hours prior to publishing this. Same criticisms but at least a couple of minor things got explained.
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[@Kosmiverse]

My only issue with the show is more so something I was expecting anyway because Vizie does it with every piece of media she produces (Zoophobia included) - The premise of the show is abandoned as soon as possible to get to the drama. It makes the entire thing feel rushed rather than taking her time to naturally build the world and characters before getting into the nitty gritty.

[@icarue993]

I feel they stuck with the hotel more than Hella did with IMP

[@DullyPrimary]

That really my problem with Viv’s writing as a whole. She uses the premise as more as a jumping off point and excuse to get the characters together instead of actually using it.

[@BananaBanditos]

Yesss, this to a T. The Hotel and redemption plot was almost immediately pushed to the backburner to the point I'm wondering why the show is even titled Hazbin Hotel now. It's just used as a recognizable place that the characters can convene at. The lack of character development in every character had me not really caring about whatever their final fate would be. Angel Dust was the only one with a modicum of character development, and it was good character development, but there were just way too many characters introduced in this short of a season for any of them to get development. Even less time to focus on their bad side/redemption because that plot gets pushed to the backburner almost immediately.

[@wiiqii6346]

Thissss. reminds me of like when your planning/ writing and there's a concept that you love but requires a decent amount of worlbuilding and plot progression to get to but bc your so impatient and excited you just find any shortcut to it, no matter how ill prepared the rest is.

[@nono9543]

This. I think every project she's in she gets bored of the original show's premise and instead falls for the characters she's made. And while that love can be shared in its collectiveness it also sacrifices story cohesion.

[@Detoxpain]

One of the bigger plot points is that literally nobody knows what gets you into heaven or hell, not even the angels. Also you're absolutely right that Charlie's character is that she's incredibly well meaning but has absolutely no idea what she's doing.

[@orbboom6119]

Yeah thats an overarching series question lol

[@lamogio7938]

That plot point is kinda bs and also retcons helluva boss. Like come on , they can watch over humans but they can't find a single common denominator between everyone entering heaven? Couldn't they at least guess that you shouldn't be a mass murderer , rapist and other similar stuff? What , do the angels not have Bibles or any sort of scripture they can study?

[@Maxisamo1]

​@lamogio7938 The issue is it seems to be vibes-based Yeah obviously mass murderers go to Hell. But the problem is what is a GOOD person? And Angels don't seem to actually know what the consistent rules are

[@kameronbailey6939]

That's what I like about Charlie she cares about her friends however she doesn't know how to approach situations and will fuck it up.

[@Raulgb5]

@@lamogio7938 Dude the Cherubs were wrong remember? They went to watch over him because they thought his inventions saved a lot of people so he would go to heaven, but they failed to realize he was doing it for money and experimenting on the poor, so when he died he actually went to hell

[@psykomancer4420]

Christian mythos in fiction is always based far more on the authors interactions with Christians than the doctrine itself. Which isn't too surprising, most professing Christians don't read the Bible either.

[@messymessr]

Often even Christian doctrine itself isn't supported by the actual Bible.

[@pinxelated2799]

I've seen a lot of Christians be mad at this show's 'inaccurate' depictions of hell, heaven, Lucifer, etc. and it always baffled me. I genuinely don't get this! You only need to see just one clip to see this edgy furry demon show isn't gonna be focusing on being bible accurate lmao. Just call it cringe instead

[@psykomancer4420]

@messymessr Exactly. There's so much you could mine out of how Christians act vs what they teach vs the Bible itself. Would never expect that from Hazibin, but I'd like for there to be a story that dug into that.

[@Mister-Thirteen]

Here's a thought to chew on. Maybe the reason that artists almost universally subvert and play with the ideas presented in the Abrahamic mythos; is because the concepts played straight are out of touch with modern thinking? A lot of the core concepts of the faith simply don't appeal to vast swaths of people alive today. Morality rooted in divine authority. The perpetual Apocalypticism. Special pleading in favor of organized proselytizing organizations on a global scale. etc. There is a lot of incredibly creative material to work with in both various canon and apocrypha. But even Dante had to play with the central cosmology to write the divine comedy.

[@psykomancer4420]

@@Mister-Thirteen That's all true. It's also true that no one reads that shit, and most just cobble together half-remembered Sunday school stories and Christian concepts as filtered through pop culture to create some cracked mirror version of an idea they thought was sort of neat.

[@blacktack7918]

I really don't understand how the exorcists not knowing that they can be killed by their own weapons makes any sense. First of all, in Vaggie's backstory Lute cuts out her eye with her executioner's blade (an angelic weapon). This means that Lute and by extension Adam as he was a witness know that angels can be harmed by angelic weapons. Vaggie's missing left eye is proof of that. Moreover, these exorcists leave their angelic spears lying when exterminations are done. I feel like after Vaggie's violent excommunication from the exorcists, Adam and Lute would inform the others that they can be harmed by their own weapons so that they know to no longer leave their spears lying around. Taking this into account, why are Adam and Lute so surprised when 1 of their own has been killed when they keep foolishly giving the sinners ammo by leaving their weapons behind. Further more, why did these guy not do any investigations to find the culprit. I don't even want to get into Vaggie not knowing that angels can be harmed nor how they can be harmed. I mean, the girl must have amnesia if she forgot how she was kicked out of the exorcists. She has a constant reminder on the left side of her face and yet 1 of the 2 reasons she went to Camilla was to find out how to harm and kill exorcists. Is there anyone that can provide evidence from the show to explain this plot hole that isn't just headcanon, theories or guessing, because I would love to hear it. I genuinely can't make sense of any of this.

[@ibraahimdureng7482]

Yeah that's a massive plot hole there I can't really explain the reasoning for that.

[@xryeau_1760]

This is still absolutely a plot hole but you can still injure immortal souls, they just eventually bounce back unless you finish the job with an angelic weapon

[@blacktack7918]

@@xryeau_1760 ok but vaggie, lute and adam should also know that angels can be harmed without angelic weapons, especially vaggie. She had her eye cut out by an angelic sword but her wings were ripped off barehanded. This means she was harmed through both angelic and non-angelic means. Because of this, it would make 0 sense for Vaggie(the victim), Lute (the culprit), and Adam (the witness) not to know that angels can be harmed without the need of angelic steel. The only explanation I think of is they're either stupid or they forgot, neither of which are very satisfying. My overall issue with the plot of hazbin hotel is that at least half the time, what is being told and what is being shown don't match up all that well.

[@gorxela8982]

There is no evidence in the show itself so it doesn't really matter and could be considered non-canon but there are a few things in Vivzie's old comments and Helluva boss that can mend this plot hole somewhat. Back when the pilot for HH had just released there was a discussion about worldbuilding and power levels of Heaven and Hell and Vivzie shared that Lucifer, who was one of the highest ranking angels before his fall could only be meaningfully hurt by angels of similar or higher rank and demons cannot do jack to him. Also, in Helluva Boss one of the plot points was that high rank demons, namely demon princes can not be killed by low rank sinners and imps without specially made weapons from angelic alloy. So Vaggie could have just assumed that she was hurt not because Lute wielded an angelic weapon but because Lute herself was an angel.

[@blacktack7918]

@@gorxela8982 So the power of angelic weapons is entirely dependent on its wielder? So if a weak sinner/angel used an angelic weapon on a strong sinner/angel then it would have little to no effect in them? Would that be a fair assumption?

[@Scarnehu]

That "Hello-Hello" is like a warm cup of tea on a cold night. Hope you're staying cozy buddy

[@danielsurvivor1372]

20:52 Couldnt agree more, I too was somewhat dissapointed by show abandoning its original premise of therapy. Btw Helluva Boss ALSO did it, it had the premise of "Office showe but in hell" and after, I kid you not, EPISODE 2, they abandon that premise

[@RorytheRomulan]

Show: "This one person killed an angel, nobody's done it before." Angel-killer: "Use their own weapons against them, here I've got loads of angels' weapons, I've been selling them." Thousands of years of the angels coming down to purge the sinners in Hell, and NOBODY has ever tried to use their own weapons against them. How thematic. Also, how very, very stupid.

[@lixfury4511]

Extermination has only been going for 7 years i believe. same time lilith and alistor disapeard.

[@JennyJohne]

What i don't understand ist, how did Carmilla or whatever her Name is came to the weapons of the angels....when they never killed an Angel in the extermination?

[@YouNeedMeJackie]

You can see it in the first episode when the daughters are collecting them. They just leave that shit on the ground like it's candy wrappers. @@JennyJohne

[@JennyJohne]

@@YouNeedMeJackie but when that is the only weapons that can kill the angels...why is it left in hell then? With such weapons the sinners could have killed the angels a long time ago or could at least have tried...how is it then that none was killed till the begining at the show? This is so confusing to me sorry🥲🥲

[@JennyJohne]

@@YouNeedMeJackie and thanks for reminding me! I forgot that part😅

[@Nomadsword]

I felt like Angeldust's improvement was really apparent. So apparent in fact that I thought he was going to fuck up while they were watching him because him being better was so on the nose in that episode. That same episode is where it's revealed that the angels don't even know what gets people into heaven (especially since Adam himself doesn't meet his own hastily written criteria). The reveal happening this late into the series, vs the fact angels can be killed, told me that it's probably a season 2 problem because the episodes don't cover a lot between the 2 song mandate. I'd like it to slow down because you're right about the songs holding most of the plot to the point that the show feels like it's in a rush to get somewhere.

[@Nassergamez]

The issue is that the story is a lot of past off screen history, the true reason Angel can't get into heaven is his soul isn't his own but the property of Valentino. (same with Husk and Alastor) the story is supposed to portray this but doesn't.

[@TheNicMMc]

Sera should at least know since she’s the head angel.

[@Hisnitch]

​@@TheNicMMcShe *should* know, but she doesn't, which is one of the big plot twists/plot points: despite the fact that she, as the one of the highest ranking angels, not only doesn't know, but regardless of the lack of intel, sanctions the mass murder of sinners makes her at least on par with Adam. Spoilers for the last episode: I think there's a reason why, when Snake boi went to heaven, there's a specific reason why he _specifically_ shows up in from of the Seraphiems: it was Heavens way of letting Sera know that she fucked up really badly by sanctioning it.

[@tristancummings5925]

It SHOULD slow down, but with how the series is being covered by Amazon, Hazbin s1 didnt get alot of episodes. They only really have 8 episodes to: Set up premise Set up world they live in Set up conflict Resolve it Hint at another one for season two. When you have to jam all that into 8 eps some things have to be sacrificed, one of them being the pacing unfortunately...

[@SobiTheRobot]

Angel Dust's character development timeline is actually fairly solid. He's finally admitted to even having a problem, and realizes he has people looking out for him, leading to his nobler decisions in the episode. It makes sense to me, especially with its musical pacing.

[@ruggedlemmings9163]

My impression is that all the self examination and improvement is actually laid out in the songs. You're 100% correct in that for the most part the plot only really advances through the use of the songs while everything between the songs is mostly just slap-stick. For example, Poison - one of Angel Dust's songs - is all about him knowing that his lifestyle is terrible and he hates it, but having sold his soul to a powerful demon he has no choice in the matter. I believe it's episode 6 where Angel Dust finally stands up to his Overlord, telling him that yeah you can make me do whatever you want while I'm at the studio, but you don't control me out here in public. Previously he wouldn't DARE stand up to his Overlord like that, however in this episode we see some growth. Honestly I think the biggest issue with the series is that the pacing feels VERY rushed. For example the episode where Lucifer gets introduced. At the start of the episode there's a song between him and Alistor where it seems like Alistor is wanting to set himself up as a rival to Lucifer, to show that he can be a better father-figure to Charlie than her own father. Yeah, that plot point ends at the end of that song. It's basically never touched on again and Alistor stops Bad Dad Trolling Lucifer for the rest of the episode.

[@SobiTheRobot]

To me, the season is paced like a Broadway musical, and it works fine when you watch it all at once. The world's rules need not be so explicitly explained when we have enough information to make a decent inference with those human brains of ours. All we need to know is that Exorcist Angels being killable is a recent revelation that surprised *everyone* because *everyone* assumed they were immortal. And from that, we can extrapolate that no one would even try to kill something they thought was immortal.

[@kfphunter1315]

Allastor did all this just to force Lucifer to help, he doesn’t want to be Charlie’s father

[@ericphillips100]

"Hop in my Chrysler, it's as big as a whale, and it's about to set sail!" -Love Shack

[@michaelwalsh9616]

Ultimately I think the big flaw of Hazbin is that it's condensing a big plot into a small season. With the team focusing on the plot points and big emotional moments, they forgo the small but important parts like characters, the buildup and worldbuilding as you mentioned.

[@someguy4384]

A lot of people have commented this, but i dont see as many people adding the exact things that led up to this conclusion. During Episode 6's trial Adam, the first Man, is tasked with determining what gets someone into Heaven. He writes down "Selflessness, don't steal, stick it to the man." Over the course of the episode we watch Angel Dust perform all these tasks. He prevents Niffty from stealing, sacrifices money so someone else's night isnt ruined (and Niffty isnt attacked), and stands up to Valentino. Thus he checks off all three things that all the Angels agreed were things that got you into Heaven. That leads to Sera the Seraphim, once Charlie asks if anyone knows what actually gets someone into Heaven, to say "This line of questioning stops now. We know when a soul arrives," implying that even she, a Seraphim, doesn't have an idea as to why people are allowed into Heaven or condemned into Hell. Most of that is conveyed in the song, though, and you mention you were working during that particular episode, so it's understandable that you missed that particular bit.

[@PlanetZoidstar]

Nifty reminds me alot of GIR from Invader Zim. Given Viv has been quite up front with her inspirations (edgy hot topic subculture/cartoons like Invader Zim) I think this was intentional.

[@Gears_Starting]

For anyone wondering, the last two episodes (seven and eight) for Hazbin Hotel are out now.

[@aaronatkinson177]

Yes I really did love meeting rosie she was fun to watch ❤😁

[@music79075]

Hazbin Hotels setting has more in common with Diablo 3 and The Sin War than it does with The Bible.

[@Sonicfalcon16]

7:10 Thats reverse disney movies, Where plot is happening and a song will happen and the plot just stops until the song ends

[@TheVideolover45]

It's really weird to hear people talk about/discuss it like this. It's just a musical. Story, conflict, lore, discussions, plot are done through... music. It's a musical.

[@Sonicfalcon16]

@@TheVideolover45 I have lion king that can be used for and against me. "I just can't wait to be king" it's just a song of what we already knew and "be prepared" where scar explains his plan to over through the king and that's a good use for a song.

[@Zelnyair]

I find the show to be a paradox. The show has so many Judeo-Christian themes and influences that inform the show's story and aesthetics, and I think it simply needs to have some of that, or it feels that it needs to have some of that, in order to get people to think that it's Hell and Heaven as commonly understood at least in pop culture. For instance, I don't think it's that controversial to say that the angels in Hazbin Hotel having wings is because angels are commonly depicted as having wings in western media anyway. That's probably an 'obvious point is obvious'. I think the show has to have some of that, or will always have some of that, but it's just way more fascinating in my opinion, when the show is wheeling out characters who are original and not tied to anything. I think the show will be best remembered for someone like Alastor or Angel Dust or Vox, and I'm sure you can name more, than Lucifer ever will be. That's not to say Lucifer is bad, but you look at something like that scene of the Overlords meeting and the egg going on about how he met "a pretty lady and a dinosaur" and I'm "This is it. This is what makes Hazbin's version of Hell its own, because you just don't really get much else like it anywhere else." I hope I'm getting my point across well. I'll give it credit that Hell feels like a place people live and work in, but it just feels rather shallow because I don't think the symbolism or significance of it being Hell means much, even in its own story, because Heaven are hypocrites and Adam is such a chauvinist jerk. It's "Here's one side that has horrible people and here's another side that also has horrible people" and that's about it. This is why I think it's a bit of a paradox, because it's a story full of religious symbolism and themes, that I think is at its best the farther away from those it goes, yet has to have them. It's also how I think its best characters are the ones not from theology or folklore or mythology or anything like that.

[@florence9606]

I hadn't thought about that angle before, but you're super right in that Hazbin Hotel really sets its style best when it's coloring outside the lines more with its designs.

[@thomaslacroix6011]

It feels like the original premise was the starting point from the plot, but at some points the original ideas overcrowded the original premise, so it would have done better as a completely original world. The idea that no one knows how to get in heaven and that's what's tyrannical about God runs contrary to the real Christianity which just demands faith. It would be fine if that was characterized as bad, too demanding, or too nebulous, but the idea that nobody knows is weird.

[@KageKobushi]

Honestly, I think that they should have run with the Cherubs kind of idea from Helluva Boss, since it's in the same universe. That Heaven is so regimented that it's essentially impossible to get into/stay in, while Hell is essentially the oxymoron of controlled anarchy

[@DuskyLore]

Yeah, it's like, if the characters in Hell are calling out the characters in Heaven for the bad things they also do...why do the characters in Hell want to go to Heaven _anyway?_

[@ivansmirnoff6987]

It really feels like setting the whole thing in Hell was just done to be quirky and counter culture, which feels like 90% of the things this creator does. I also personally can't stand the art and have no clue how people can deal with their retinas being burned out from red being almost the sole color on screen.

[@tostisgood]

I’m interested in the show because of its humble beginnings. It and Lackadaisy feel like landmark indie internet animations for what they represent.

[@personalgoogleaccount9694]

This. Regardless of what people think of the plotline and world building, the fact that an indie series was able to get this far is ground-breaking.

[@langustajableczna]

then watch smiling friends, it's actually good and funny

[@CJojo_13_]

​​@@langustajableczna Zach Hadel and Michael Cusack (the people who made Smiling Friends) both voice characters in Helluva Boss. You're comparing the work of people in a shared community.

[@langustajableczna]

@@CJojo_13_ That's exactly what makes it an even better comparison girl

[@CJojo_13_]

@@langustajableczna that makes it worse, lmao. Clearly the shows aren't in competition with each other, either stylistically or inter-personally. The similarities between both works wouldn't even go beyond a surface level, it's comparing apples to ham sandwiches.

[@SmilesEdgeworth]

As an outsider looking in, hearing people's thoughts on the shows, watching a bit of Helluva boss, it seems Vivzie knows how to design characters, but not how to write them? Writing's not easy and this is not meant as an insult, just something I've noticed people point out a lot.

[@manzanito3652]

She has years of experience drawing and designing characters. Meanwhile, in terms of writing experience, she has only wrote two shows.

[@kevintanza6968]

@@manzanito3652Probably more of an animator and artist than a writer. And that's fine. I'm a writer with some drawing abilities but nowhere near pro levels.

[@spess0860]

The show really felt like it was trying to pack too much into 8 episodes, maybe it was like amazon was saying "You got eight episodes, make it worth." but if it was planned then it was a bad decision. There is simply not enough time to tell how the world works, when even the characters can't have enough time to flourish. Their arcs happen too fast. Like how Lucifer and Charlie solve their years of disconnection within the same exact episode. I would say even that Charlie gets a trip to heaven should have been a good cliffhanger, showing her arriving at the gate, and we could see heaven in S2's first episode. Its still good, but really rushed.

[@mistermeow527]

Part of the problem as I feel it that you touched on around 38:22 is that the show is in an awful hurry to rush through an arc but fast forwards through establishing why they're there or why they're doing these things or anything in general. The arc seems to take precedent over the characters & their wants which by contrast is something that I liked from Helluva Boss that it took its time to establish characters in a more isolated absurdist one off adventures episodes. They're just silly cartoon characters with no directions other than the premise (They're hitmen) until near the end after you've invested a little into them 'to get them' that it starts to create conflicts between them. Helluva Boss still isn't about "Hell" or even the conceptual setting but I feel it's more or less more interested in talking about its characters than Hazbin is.

[@Lupostehgreat]

So the thing I actually take from Helluva Boss is that it's clear that fucking none of what we got from episode 5, on, was planned in the pilot. That's okay, because creativity doesn't work like "I have a clear idea, and I execute everything that I originally planned from the beginning." Anyone who tries to write like that either ends up with Batman Vs Superman or they never finish because things don't work that way. The one thing I can say I appreciate about Viv and her team is that they really aren't afraid to just do what they want to do, and follow their inspirations. It doesn't always work that well, but there is something honest to it that feels missing from a lot of more professional works. I think that authenticity is what causes it to be appealing for most of the fanbase. Things could be done better, but I feel that anyone saying it's objectively awful is either looking for attention or is just being an irritating anti-fan.

[@Daxxelxz]

I have shitty English, I don't understand everything but I really enjoy your voice and painting.

[@danielsurvivor1372]

18:47 Not sure where you getting this from? Sure Vivizies version of hell doesnt look like average version of hell in fiction in that sinners arent directly tortured but its not a "cool edgy paradise" either, its heavily implied their "hell society" is extremely flawed even without exterminations, In episode 1 in the first song it shown extreme violence(sinners killing each other), filth(the fact some bozo showed himself naked to Charlie), self harm(hangman, I dont think yt likes the s word for self harm), extreme poverty. in episode 2 it was shown that sinners in hell who ARE somewhat well off are quite literally brainwashed by Vox tech(he literally shown to have hypnosis/brainwashing abilities when he used his eyes to shut up the reporters) which is pretty scary concept, literal TV/tech zombies, also his tech violates privacy. Also hes shown to be friends with Val and we see glimse of how Val treats his "employees' aka 99% likely sinners who sold their soul to Val, with him wanting Angel back in the studio and ready to attack hotel for hiding him, he also killed Velvettes employee and while show itself didnt told it but Vivzie confirmed that sinners dying to other sinners will reincarnate back in hell but in extremely painful way. in episode 3 we see how just the sight of Zestial overlord makes other sinners commit self harm on themselves due to being afraid of what he'll do to em, also one of the overlords in the meeting, Rosie, is a cannibal running cannibal colony. In episode 4 we see Val's abusive behaviour towards his employee, and in ep 4 and 5 we see literaly loan sharks and how they hunt anyone who opposes em. Again Vivizies hell isnt exactly that "hellish" but its by no means a "hip and cewl place", sure I can agree that Vivzie didnt exactly do a good job world building vise and tons of the info is from outside sources

[@angrycat1232]

I regard the show in the same way Ash from Alien (1979) perceived the Xenomorph, it may be off putting and hazardous to my general sense of comfort, but I can’t help but admire its purity.

[@crashandersen602]

Purity?

[@williamguzman7488]

Surprisingly articulate consensus

[@kaisiru]

The show feels like it jumped to the climax of a later season of a major tv show. It should've had way more world building before jumping to talking with Angels on episode 1.

[@lenmutt]

One could say Adam is just the beginning.

[@BananaBanditos]

Yeah, if they just stuck with the plot of trying to redeem some of these characters and in the final episode of the season, they do. Followed by a cliffhanger of Adam being introduced saying they have to stop this or something along those lines I think would solve some of the problems with the show. 1. Lack of character development/Too many characters to care about any of them. Pair down the main character roster to about 5-6 for the first season and develop them. There are soooooo many named characters this season. Most of them serve no purpose outside of the scene they're in. 2. They're able to incorporate the actual redemption plot into the larger narrative. When that one character was "redeemed" and sent to heaven, it felt extremely unearned. I would have expected the first redemption to carry huge emotional weight to the core cast, and especially Charlie. The season ends and she doesn't even know if it's possible still, and yet the plot is spiraling into another story that doesn't deal with the hotel or working towards Redemption that it was pitched as originally.

[@theresivy]

in terms of angel’s “redemption” vaggie literally says in the next episode he was still stashing drugs lmao

[@jtmarin04]

Overall I liked the show but I wish it had focused more on internal conflict (i.e. can a demon rehabilitate?) over external conflict (i.e. Heaven won't let us in because we are sinners)

[@saltyboi9281]

"This Darling's Nifty!" "Hi I'm Nifty!" Yeah a lot of characters do originate back to the pilot.

[@Happy_Slappy2_0]

I love Nifty she's so chaotic and adorable.

[@josephcalamia5586]

She's definitely my favorite! I really dig her 1950s aesthetic.

[@Happy_Slappy2_0]

@@josephcalamia5586I would love a plushy of her at some point.

[@josephcalamia5586]

@@Happy_Slappy2_0 I would love a Nifty plushy too!

[@OracleCura]

I think in episode 6 there was a moment where they touch upon this issue you bring up here, that the rules really aren't clear. The characters are talking to some of the angels and arguing their case for Angel, and they're asking the angels directly "why can't he go to heaven? look, he's trying and he's better". ...and the response is a bit of shrugging. The question comes up "what *exactly* gets a person in, then?" and the answer is "well that's not our decision, uhhh, I don't actually know". Coming from an angel, that's an interesting point to me; I'm looking at amazon now and it turns out there are two more episodes I haven't seen yet; I'm not sure this is something they'll explore or flesh out. For me, the show is kinda funny, fairly harmless, but no, it isn't really digging in to anything serious or profound. ...but that's okay.

[@onlyaladd569]

You touched on something very important in your rant. There are two different kinds of viewers, logical and emotional ones. Logical viewers enjoy worldbuilding, lore, concepts and philosophy. Emotional viewers enjoy drama, set pieces, action and the moment to moment flow of the story. Both are needed to make a truly great story. I don't think Hazbin Hotel is bad (primarily emotional viewer here), but it didn't appeal to you because you are a primarily logical viewer. In that regard I would call Hazbin Hotel half-baked. Bringing it up because its something I never ever thought about before.

[@danielsurvivor1372]

10:58 No I dont get it? Besides exterminators and I gueeesss Sera, the heaven wasnt shown all that much and most people werent shown to be as bad or worse then Hell residents. I mean when Charlie and Emily(angel mind you) gave slightest pushback and talked about exterminations, the entire COURT was in shambles and angels were drawn with sad faces implying they didnt know about exterminations and they dont condone them. How is it showing them being bad people? Lily Orchard also made this point but I and most fans dont see what you both see, besides Adam Lute and their exterminatiors army, most angels were shown as neutral or even good people like Emily and most of the court. Even Sera says she didnt really want this but only did so because of desperation.

[@__-be1gk]

Hazbin Hotel is good if you take it at complete face value and just follow the story as it is, actively working to completely ignore any kind of potential it could have had, because if you think about what could be for a songle moment, you will be invariably disappointed. It's like Dark Souls 3!

[@Daehpo]

Yeah, it's best to stop thinking about it too much & just enjoy the ride. I hate that it's that way & wish it did more with the premise & characters, but that ain't the show.

[@DullyPrimary]

@@DaehpoI blame the 8 episodes season corporate are doing for some reason.

[@__-be1gk]

@@DullyPrimary Helluva is completely run independently and only very marginally fixes the issue despite having triple the episodes, if anything 8 is good to keep Vivzie reigned in and force her to tell an actual story.

[@Unknown-qj9sm]

@@__-be1gkYeah, I agree. People here point out it has a rushed pacing a lot, but this is just a larger creative issue in my mind. Helluva Boss has the same pacing in the same amount of episodes but like 3 mid to terrible episodes inbetween each meaningful one acting as filler for some reason.

[@pjmetzen3483]

Reminds me of RWBY, especially when you think of their fandoms.

[@Thane3999]

Hazbin and Helluva boss, in my opinion, struggle mainly from identity crisis. Viv wants to do so many things, that she doesn't concentrate on doing few things well. It's simultanious a campy comedy show, with character driven narrative, that is mainly exploring it's unfortunate souls, an epic fantasy, where plot and action driven narrative takes precedence over character, and many other things, but none of which are developed to their full potential. When it comes to character narrative, it wants to have a cake and eat it too. Many of the character arcs touch upon the the stories Viv wants to tell with them, but without properly delving into all the interesting details, nitty and gritty, and so even when she tries to tell sincere, serious stories it feels a bit half baked (the only exception so far I feel are Husk, Angel Dust and Alastor, who keep my interest). Best example is "Angel Exterminator Vaggie", an idea that has little to no interesting things done with it, and emotional struggle that is over and done in one episode, for both Vaggie and Charlie, and has no further bearing on the plot or the characters (also, the reason WHY Vaggie was banished from Heaven is so ABSURD), despite being genuienly complex issue that can be explored from many sides. Which is a shame, because Bible does this with many of it's stories. The worldbuilding, tone and writing, cannot decided if it wants to be campy, comedic take on Demonology and Bible, that is very intentionaly corny and cartoony, (f.e. similar to Monster High, but more raunchy humor) or it wants to be a serious show, which develops and writes about heavy subjects, be it abuse or subject of redemption and freedom, and what it means to be Sinner or not. Both are fine, but rarely work together (I've only ever seen Terry Pratchett pull it off well). Hell is silmultaniously very pleasant and completely unbrearable. Heaven is supremely competent and supremely incompetent. The characters clash one another, but not in the good way, the best example of being Sir Pentious, who sounds like a person who spend his free time tying up damsels to train tracks, or Carmilla Carmine who doesn't seem particulary evil. sharing Hell with literal Cannibals, pimps who SA ppl and facists ( I know that's KIND A a major plot point, but I feel like the show would have felt better if it was placed in Purgatory)

[@williamking331]

Honestly, the rushed plot to me just makes me feel like they had next to no confidence in their project. Just a small shout out to the indie cartoon Monkey Wrench! I highly recommend it!

[@zaroko8105]

Due to the issues the show faced it certainly did not have time to flesh out many things however what they did with that was to blast through plots and developments and hoped that all of the in-betweens would be filled in by the audience themselves. Why do angels look like demons? Welp the audience has to fill in the blanks and assume it's because they're trying to tell a message that demon's and angels aren't so different. Why does heaven fell not so different from hell? Well the show assumes that as the audience you gotta get the implication that the message is that heaven and hell aren't so different. Why the mechanics of getting into heaven and hell so vague and not even mentioned? Well it's outright shown in ep 6 that no one knows exactly how but then if you take that there is multitude of plot holes that start to spring up when you think deeper about it which the audience has to fill in themselves or just hope that their suspension of disbelief holds strong enough for them to stop and just ignore said plot holes Many of these world building stuff and plot contrivances are just all left to the viewer to fill in and frankly it seems detracted took one out from the investment and immersion into the show

[@Tyrfing42]

Doesn't Hell also not appear in the bible itself? Isn't it "post-bible" content, like Lillith?

[@PlagueOfGripes]

Mostly. It 'appears' as 'gehenna,' and later in John's (probably political) writing in Revelation. It was an actual location - a valley where they dumped trash and people the Romans had executed. The idea that it was a burning pit became more prominent about a thousand years afterwards, although it probably was a burn site as well, especially if they were cremating bodies to avoid disease. However, Jesus only mentions the site alongside the idea of fire a couple of times, as he (around ten times) warns against ending up disposed there. Although again, he was referring to the literal valley in the same way we'd say that you don't want to end up at, say, Chernobyl or Alcatraz or something similar. The various imagery and threats associated with the modern version of hell came later as it became more of a threat to explain why you should be listening to the Roman Empire/Church. The idea of Lilith showed up about 500 or more years after Jesus and was developed mostly in the middle ages.

[@Bam_bone]

Someone explained it perfectly for me. Vivs personality and interests is everything "edgy" about the 90's and early 2000s, and that tends to cloud her ability to do anything substantial as there has to be 17 levels of melodrama and irony that takes away alot of genuine thought. And personally, heaven being evil is so tired. Like im catholic but i can entertain paradise lost but man.....thats all it ever is now

[@alexandergriffith1825]

Lilith is actually in Jewish mythology and later adopted by demonology

[@ladonmccabe]

Finally, someone who actually knows. Tired of people saying: "She's not mentioned in Christianity, blah blah blah." Like Christianity is the end all, be all of Abrahamic spiritualism. Bit of a rant, but kudos.

[@MrRenanHappy]

Great taste in character, Plague

[@PixelleHearts]

The whole point of the Heaven vs Hell sorting criteria is the whole point of the show. The fact that it took 6 episodes to even bring it up is the part that I have gripes about. Hell-born are spared from extermination because they are Lilith's and Lucifer's creations (Lilith's unholy children from Adam's stolen seed in the original genesis narrative) using Lucifer's angelic creation powers. Heaven is this seemingly exclusive party where people seemed to only be judged by the consequences of their actions upon the moment of their death. Lucifer's Hell is just as lively as God's human world but is being overrun with overpopulation because Heaven would rather throw mortal human souls into Hell rather than let their misgivings be a lesson to be a better person even though humans are God's creations and the onus should fall upon God to help fix their mistakes. The fact that people in Heaven can be evil like Adam and Lute goes to show you that the idea is that God doesn't care as long as you abide by its rules up until the point of death. Questioning God's will can easily earn you a trip to Hell, but now has seemingly been proven that giving in to the rules lets you back in to Heaven when you die but is yet another gamble at even existing. Denizens of Hell including mortal souls are seemingly immortal in lifespan just like Angels, so why would anyone gamble away their remaining existence at a chance at what they assume could never happen? Why give up a life of eternal debauchery and succulence? The Denizens of Hell had no comprehension that Heaven is just Hell but with constraints, and to reiterate, it feels like an exclusive party where morality doesn't seem to be the defining factor rather it's whether or not you fit the dress code at the time of entry. My biggest gripe is that the issue of the story is overpopulation. It shifts the scope from being a moral conundrum to that of convenience. We have proof that Hell can be lived in, that is to say, you can have a life in Hell and making a living (unliving?) just as easily as you could on Earth. The two main residents of the Hotel that seek redemption never showed signs of wanting to "redeem" themselves because it's the morally right thing to do but rather that it would get them off a shitty place of consequence. The end goal has never been shown to be wholeheartedly wanting to go to heaven, rather , it was always to get a leg up in life. Angel Dust has shown he could live without drugs and booze, but at every turn still does not inhibit his penchant for sex and Sir Pentious only sought to find a place to fit in rather than both of them actually trying to abide by heaven's rules. That being said, you honestly can't expect much out of 8 episodes of what is essentially establishing setup, so I'll give Vivzie one more season to iron these things out and maybe we'll actually see more of the rehabilitiation premise we were all expecting of the series.

[@Desparil]

22:09 I actually enjoy Helluva Boss and continue to watch it because that's all the series promised was low-brow humor, over-the-top cartoon violence, and generally episodic content. I'm disappointed with Hazbin Hotel and stopped watching partway through the second episode because it promised something different, something MORE, and then totally failed to deliver while simultaneously being inferior to Helluva Boss when it comes to the aforementioned low-brow stuff.

[@nasinnarcotics]

I was a Vivziepop fan since before HH was a glimmer in anyone’s eye and tbh the artstyle that made me like her work is gone. I understand why, her style relied a lot on being kind of wild and off model which is not sustainable for team projects, but it killed my enjoyment. And her shows don’t seem invested in their own premises. Another commenter pointed out that HH and HB all but completely abandon what they were about initially to get into shipping drama and that’s exactly why I lost interest. I don’t care about Blitzo and Stolas’ toxic yaoi, I came for the thing the show was named after and if the show’s not interested in it, I’m not interested in the show. This is far from all my issues with both HH and HB-to be honest I have very few positive things to say about either besides that I support indie animation projects on principle-but those are the relevant ones.

[@AkiRa22084]

Not knowing the criteria to get up there is the main plot point of the show.

[@palmid6069]

Yeah while it started out as Charlie wanting to reform the souls of sinners for reason the show hasn't fully explored yet, it's kind of shifted due to the revelation that NOBODY is really aware of the criteria to get into heaven or hell.

[@AkiRa22084]

@@palmid6069 Exactly. I love it.

[@saitamasama5743]

Yep, but that was only really made apparent in episode 6. Which makes me believe that he only watched the first 4 episodes. And at that point all of his criticism of the characters not being devoloped enough become a bit laughable.

[@upg5147]

​@@saitamasama5743 He said he watched to six

[@BananaBanditos]

​@@saitamasama5743the characters aren't developed. That's a criticism for the entire series. The only one that gets any real development is Angel Dust. The 30 other characters that were crammed into an 8 episode season get nothing.

[@dylanbuchanan6511]

How…How did you hit EVERY nail on the head? Like, every single thing you said was so on point and accurate as a criticism of this show. I have my own criticisms with this show but your’s are not only better but well-spoken. This is by far the best review of Hazbin Hotel I’ve ever seen and all the problems wrong with it. Bravo, sir. Bravo

[@Haurent]

16:52 You kinda nailed it here. To me it feels like this show is made by a kid who just turned atheist after living as a christian because it was imposed to them. That and the oversaturation of swear words because why not, and songs every now and then like a disney movie. Watched the entire thing and honestly it's pretty mid for all the hype it carried.

[@theend130]

I feel like pacing is a huge issue in the show. Im rather bads with my words so a lot of the time i feel like when i explain why a thing isnt really doing it for me people just assume i hate it. Not liking something or some points of a thing dosnt mean they hate the thing as a whole and its ok not to like things or like things.

[@SilentTypeDx]

Your musing at 18:24 to 19:14 pretty much describes Netherworld realms in the PS3 game Folklore; in short, whatever you imagined the afterlife to be, is the realm your soul winds up.

[@AshenedFox]

i often felt like i was watching this show at 2x speed at some points. i actually really enjoy helluva boss and agree with your criticism of the humor but its allowed to take its time. this got shafted by the 8 episode season length. that's nowhere near enough time to establish any sort of meaningful character development. also as someone that enjoys musicals the songs are mid, i only really enjoyed loser and poison. hopefully things improve in season 2 but so far i dont have much faith in the show.

[@alexandergriffith1825]

As someone who’s been watching Hellava Boss and all her animations, I felt the show needed at least 4 more episodes to flush things out more. Still loved the show.

[@Nephrahim]

I've been thinking about this talk for a while, and while I doubt anyone will see/read this comment, I feel compelled to make it. I think part of the problem that some people like PoG, or anyone with knowledge of Christianity run into with this show, is they compare it to the real world religion. That's a normal thing to do, the show does seem to be, at first glance, based on Christianity... but really thinking about it, there's almost no connection. Like, there's a few concepts lifted over. Heaven and Hell. A few characters like Lucifer and Adam, although they are basically completely unrecognizable and unrelated to their canon or even apocryphal interpretations (Like, I kind of get what they were going for with Adam, the literal first Patriarch, turning into a Frat Bro, but.... C'mon.) PoG brings up the concept of Salvation through Faith, a core concept in Christianity, but entirely absent here. There's no Jesus Christ character to have faith in, heck, there's not even a GOD, as far as I can tell. Heaven just existed, with angels already in it, doing whatever they thought was right, and worshiping "Good" whatever that means. The Angels here aren't following god's orders, they're just doing whatever they think is right (And clearly capable of making mistakes as they do so) and don't seem to have any desire or intention to be worshiped or believed in by humans. There's one other moment he brings up, which is when Angel chooses to leave the bar that Husk brought him back for, and once he gets back to the hotel, having a drink. PoG seems confused by how he went home to do the same thing he was doing at the bar... but that's clearly not the case. From a Christian moral perspective, if we chose to judge to show in that way, I can see how you'd say that. In the context of the show though, having a drink at "Home" with your friends is clearly not the same thing as getting roofied and abused in a spiral of dissociation, even if alcohol is bad for you. So yeah, to end my rant: The show is far from perfect. PoG mentioned ST:TNG and obviously, it's never gonna be that, haha. The season is too short, but sadly it seems like an animated series getting 20-30 episode seasons is a relic of the distant past. There are a lot of issues with the world if you ponder them, and the show's not for everyone. That said, I do think it's important to look at it without comparing it to the real-life Christian religion AT ALL because the creator clearly had no intention of following that canon either. PoG called it Christian Fanfiction, but really, it's more like writing a completely original fantasy story, you just call your Main character Harry and mention he has a scar birthmark, and make no other references to his series at all.

[@SpaceBoyDigital]

I mean Vibzie heavily used modern Christian and other very well known religious tropes, its okay if theres no correlation but thats why alot of people just thiught rhe hell stuff felt like set dressing rather than important to the plot

[@danielsurvivor1372]

11:18 Ngl wish your video touched more on this aspect, this sounds actually interesting and I wonder how Vivzie couldve build her show better to reflect the "salvation through work" message which might be what shes hinting at 11:54 Also I forgoe that you didnt see last episode before you made this video(because it wasnt released yet xD) but yeah Vivziepop sort of indirectly confirmed by certain death and reincarnation in heaven that it IS salvation through work, a character died heroic death for his friends(and he was doing better at the hotel) and he got salvation 12:30 She technically tried doing that through Adam in episode 1, its just he and Lute gave VERY cold shoulder to her, I do think they couldve atleast explained better why Charlie continued her project if she got rejected by THE Adam, yeah you know THE Adam the FIRST MAN on Earth... And she didnt even think "well maybe we screwed" and she just continued doing her thing which, good for her that it did pay off in last episode but from character standpoint its kinda confusing why she did what she did. Also episode 6 was her trying to pitch the idea again but through people higher then Adam on hierarchy so again, there IS some good story in there, its just not well developed due to lack of episodes 13:58 I dont think that was her point though, the point was "why does, say angel dust deserve damnation and ridicule for all eternity for a mistake when he can change" and he did change in ep 6, sure he didnt turn up super duper wholesome 100% perfect person but isnt that the point you talked about earlier? that nobody is perfect? Idk it seemed to be is that Charlie just questioned why Heaven is so restrictive and doesnt even entertain the idea that someone who ended up in hell can change, especially since Vivizies version of hell is vastly different from other versions of hell

[@JARV9701]

I haven't watched the show yet (I'm not paying Amazon prime), but years ago while I was watching the pilot, I was expecting that the plot would be Charlie trying to get redemption for the sinners and all that, but she would either fail because it is hard, but also that it is literally imposible to cross that line, either it can't be done for some weird rule or the angles would be "Celestial NIMBYs" not letting the "sinners" getting to heaven, in a protestant/JW style, so from that point forward the plot would be Charlie coming to the conclussion that they don't need to get to heaven, but to fix hell, like, we've seen good people in hell Charlie, Veggie and Angel, his one eye friend, Nifty are actually good people, so, there has to be others with similat intentions. Maybe secound season would have been them going on a political rampage to root out corruption and mob bosses to create a better hell. That would be awesome with a great message. Maybe sometimes going the conciliatory route but other times going on turf wars agaisnt the geatest kingpins of hell.

[@meeyatttA]

Honestly, my biggest disappointment was how little the show tries to experiment with its visuals. With how many different styles of power overlords can present, they feel very tame when actually showing that power

[@SomebodyWhoExists23]

The problem with this show is that its a great musical but everything else comes second. But i think it has to do that the show just had 8 episode to tell a story which you would need at least 16 episodes to fully develop the characters and world.

[@skittlz111]

HH writing is very lackluster imo. You can tell Vivian likes her characters far too much to let bad things happen to them despite her setting literally being hell. The phrase "kill your darlings" became clear to me after consuming S1 of HB and S1 of HH

[@Silverspecks]

Eli, I've watched your lore playthrough of DS1 three times. You really created something with replay value.

[@Robert-wf7xu]

My rant that was deleted from reddit after watching Hazbin Hotel... If you dont want to read this shit, just remember to praise our ancestor - Dickmeister. >Lucifer and Lilith fuck over Adam and fuck off from Eden >Returned just to ruin perfect creation for humanity, screwing Adam yet again despite him not pursuing vengence or anything >Forced Adam to watch as his children kill themselves for ages >Create pathological hell system that rewards egoism (Liltih) >Possibly crate hell armies that endanger pepole in heaven >Heaven decides to give probably mentally broken Adam a task of extermination of sinners that he hates with passion becouse of above the reasons, becouse muh dreamer power couple can't govern for shit >Their daughter creates organisation that does not teach even repentance but makes hotel denizens civilised, by just giving them place to sleep and something to eat, without really changing, which naturaly creates positive bonds, but does not make them pay for their mistakes by actively using their skills to changing hell for better >Said daughter comes to Adam and Sera, and claims that now, because they smile and are nice to each other, it's their fault that they are not in heaven, despite the fact that they dont have a say on redemption. >She does not even attempt to understand you, just is egotisticly asking to stop exterminating cannibals, rapists, serial killers, while also sheltering one of the biggest sinn(g)ers (his song with Lucifer is fire) in hell history, who does not even attempt to change, yes good ol Alastor >Adam and Sera are shown as antagonists. Honestly the season should end the same way, with one big difference. When Lucifer breaks Adam mask, he changes his tone and goes on full rant against humanity and their sin (which of course will be also hypocritical from his side), while absolutely destroying Lucifer and whole cast while pointing all the shitty thing fallen angel did, while mocking him by saying something alongside lines "hell is paved with good intentions" (which can be also applied to Adam exterminating sinners) when he tried to rebuke him, but before the final blow is struck, Archangel Gabriel appears and stops everyone from fighting, even resurrecting dead demons and angels. There are new orders from Big G - God values free will, but that goes to far, and constant warfare between hell and heaven endangers human realm and creation. Thus if they will not be better, he will wipe the slate clean, now Exterminators, Demons and Angels have to figure out how to live with each other. From there you can go any way, political intrigue when overlord positions are in danger, influx of demons to hotel wanting to escape death, unrest in heaven, as angels were nice due to high quality of living but not because they were just, Adam and Lute having to face reality of the fact that some sinners deserve second chance and even would take it, but they are kept in the sin by their environment... Adam did nothing wrong, Lucifer and Lilith should go suck dick, maybe I should write fanfic. For pepole claiming that Lucifer is a stronger, check story of Jacob, he fought Angel 1vs1 and got blessed by God for his strenght.

[@ren_suzugamori1427]

I read your comment and I actually like your ending for the Season better. Sure, I didn't watch the whole series, but I don't plan on paying Amazon because they already fucked up Lord of the Rings canon. We'll actually see God for once, and Adam gets to properly fight back against Literal Satan!

[@danieltodorov7753]

Good rant. I like how you think, wish the writers of the show had the interest in their own story to stop and ask such questions, it would have resulted in a better show. Your vision is undercut by the fact that Adam in that universe is too dumb to know which way is up, so he would not have the thought process you described, but that's a fault of the writers again.

[@Robert-wf7xu]

@@danieltodorov7753 yeach, the snake dude sir Pontius or whatever got to heaven for sacrificing himself? Wow, the guy could build mechas and zeppelins that were big as a part of the city and thing that gets him repented it getting himself killed after being nice.

[@AntiNihilist]

11:28 wait...WHAT? I've been a Catholic and aware of other Christian denominations for 20+ years and I've never heard THIS before...

[@fillosof66689]

The first major schism is the early Christian Church revolved around the question of whether or not the people who denounced the Christ under persecution and torture could stay as ordained clerics and leaders if communities, if the sacraments they performed were proper. The leading faction were the one that decided that the core of the Christ teaching means that there are not sins that bar entirely the road to Him and the salvation He brings.

[@DeeEll1]

The whole point of episode 6 was that nobody in heaven actually know what judges a soul and what the criteria to enter heaven is.

[@panzercake8485]

The humor's pretty pedestrian from what I've seen and I'm sick of the 'what if the angels were the bad guys' trope, but some good porn came out of it so that's cool.

[@archduke0000]

The humor and dialogue is painful.

[@BatBuuD]

9:50 I could be mistaken, but I think Lilith comes from Judaism. So most christian bibles don’t recognize her as “canon” for lack of a better term.

[@nectarinn3]

The name does technically come from there but as far as I can tell it was used for a type of demon. The idea of Lilith as Adams first wife is generally a newer invention than the roots of the name.

[@ericquiabazza2608]

Exactly The show loss all depth because its needs to: -have 2 musicals per episode. -Characters need to stay simple. -Slurs. -Animation takesbpriority iver anything else -Everythinc is Retcone regularlty Especially so beacuse this characters where background ones from Zoophilia, a comic that had SOME depth, but was discarded because creators got popular for her artstyle So they focus on that here on, characters where reeuse, retcone, simplify, and then Hazbin pop up. Which was basicly a double down. Now you see the results. Also, yes, staff are all friend, they have been doing podcast and syream togheter for years.

[@TheUndersigned]

Here's a fun thing to compare Vivzie's depictions of Hell, Heaven, and Free Will to: How Ultrakill depicts those same topics.

[@xryeau_1760]

22:56 I didn't want to nitpick the whole video because there's a lot I could say but this has been on my mind for the past week since I first watched this video. Equating doing cocaine and letting someone roofie you to having a few drinks with a friend is really fucked up. Jesus fucking Christ dude how do you not recognize that and stop yourself mid-sentence?

[@danieltodorov7753]

Alcohol damages your body all the same.

[@xryeau_1760]

@@danieltodorov7753 That's incredibly reductionist and is exactly the problem I'm pointing out

[@kalinmir]

Lilith is in the bible but not in the capacity that is nlcommonly understood but as a feature of environment: a place being so desolate that Lilith lives there (tho i dont remember the verse and its usually translated as various desert animals since medieval and early modern tranlators were missing the original context and folklore)

[@wangbot47]

I was pleasantly surprised that the show worked. I really thought it wouldn't. But it did.

[@Bam_bone]

Worked in a very shallow way

[@AkiRa22084]

@@Bam_bone It's not over yet and it's much deeper than most western shlock.

[@Earthium]

I'm the opposite. I thought the pilot was great but didn't really care for the show.

[@xDamasciox]

The songs worked, I'll give it that at the very least.

[@wangbot47]

@@AkiRa22084 ep 8 is out

[@saucy-jack1332]

Anyone else aggravated by the stupidity shoved on some character to be plot convenient vaggie not knowing that angels can be hurt....yknow the ex-angel whos most physical defining feature is a missing eye from being attacked

[@nihili4196]

Okay, getting to hell and heaven is a plot point, and so far we know that even people in heaven doesn't know how it works, they just don't care

[@realgod1002]

TBH i think Heaven is worse than Hell in this case. Adam is the prime example, he swears like a sailor, he is rude af, his whole shtick is to murder demons. Murder is a sin so Adam shouldn't be in heaven together with the exterminators.

[@TheThebigice]

@@realgod1002 The only thing that seems to make hell bad is the people there, and if people like Adam are in heaven whats so great about it? As far as i can observe heaven and hell are the same place heaven just has a police force upholding laws and optics...which there is literally nothing stopping hell from having the same thing. Adam talks about it like theirs random sex parties and drugs and degenerate concerts in heaven as well so i really dont get the difference.

[@nihili4196]

Honestly I feel like Adam is in heaven just because he was first man, and it would be bad optics to immediately send first model of human to damnation. Also, we don't know if Adam was like that when he was alive, or did he got so obnoxious because he spent eternity being almost worshipped by whole heaven. And latest episode shines some more light on whole situation, but if you haven't seen it, I won't spoil much.

[@Juria1987]

The show just suffers from being rushed and crunched into so few eps that are not even that long. It has no room to breathe, to world build proper, or anything like that more so with the musical stuff having to take more of that limited time.

[@TheNameIsSelfExplanatory]

I am SO sorry Plague, I’m way behind on your videos. I haven’t even watched this one yet. I been worried about ya ever since your father passed and you had that dark period of your life a little while ago. I’m here for you man, we all are. Keep on keeping on, love ya.🙏🫶

[@AzraelSoulHunter]

Holy shit, you really nailed some stuff here. Especially about "The Button". I can really relate to that. It can be weird talking with people until I can hook on something I do care about. And you did nail many Hazbin Hotel issues. But what you said about Elden Ring I say Morgott I think is the best character in that game. He has a great story and personality. I think what you said about relating to a character I think Morgott nails it the most. I made an entire summary of his story which I will do below if you wanna read it Morgott is an EXTREMELY tragic character. The saddest part about Morgott is that he was legitimately blessed. Omen curse is no curse. It's a blessing of the Crucible which was later seen as a curse due to Golden Order. He may as well have been the most holy of all Demigods, but he was punished for it by being left for a time in the sewers and he hated HIMSELF for it. That is until he was released, most likely by the time Giants were still a threat since Godfrey knew him and he was banished after he beat the Giants and other enemies of Erd Tree. He also uses a Giant Crusher. A weapon that fell out of use after War with the Giants. A GREAT way to hide little story details, in Boss's moveset itself. In his remembrance (japanese version) it's said that he didn't need anyone else's love to love in return. He just loved. He loved others matter what. And there most likely were people that did love him. One of them was Godfrey, but the other may have been his brother Godwyn... who was killed at the Night of the Black Knives. He tried to be a protector, he created Black Cavalry who we see in the trailer and may have been sent by him to hunt down the assassins (who also can be seen protecting the carriage with Malenia's Master's sword that goes to Haligtree), he created Sentry's Torches to protect his other siblings from Godwyn's fate, and yet... they all betrayed him and destroyed everything he loved and even then when he shows up in the throne room and calls his siblings traitors he still seems to have some actual care for them after all of that (calling Godrick by his title, being nostalgic with Malenia and Miquella, respectful for Radahn and mournful for Ranni) and he still felt great shame after staining their thrones meaning that he truly cared for them (outside of Rykard who may have taken more public role in killing Godwyn as part of his deal with Ranni which could have been start of his Blasphemy). Morgott was a good person that was betrayed by almost everyone around him. By his family that started destroying their life and breaking their world, by the Erdtree which wouldn't accept him due to his "curse" and by Golden Order which indoctrinated him into hating what he was blessed with. Morgott is probably one of the saddest characters in the game, if not THE saddest. A bitter person who has nothing, but hatred for himself and his family and the only thing he cares about is the thing that made his life miserable in the first place. And the only people that loved him are either dead (Godwyn who given that he befriended Dragons most likely cared little about curse on Morgott) or he never got to meet again after longing to see them again (Godfrey). And the part with Godfrey is even more sad when you realize that Godfrey we fight before him is most likely created BY Morgott. It's possible that Morgott created that apparition because he wanted the help of his father, he wanted his father to be there and become Elden Lord, evident by him placing his crown on the throne in the trailer. At the end when we fight him he is legitimately left with nothing, but the crumbling city and his duty which is built on lies of the Greater Will. Pray for Morgott The Omen King, The Grace-Given. The True King of Leyndell and only worthy successor of Godfrey. A true heir. The only Demigod left that is worthy of being called Golden. Morgott the Golden Omen.

[@arthurgoes1994]

Morgott it´s such an interesting character for me cause while the other demigods went to do their own thing, he was the one who decided stay in the capital and act like a king despite having every reason not to, if there is one boss i wish i didn´t need to kill it was him

[@AngelCakes1997]

I’ve stuck with Hazbin because of Angel. Literally everything else is just kinda fine to me. Hazbin is everything I ever expected, though it’s gone a lot faster than I’d thought. Gotta love the nyoom pacing.

[@ThatDarnRedKhezu]

I like Nifty. She is cute. As for the show, I think it needs to slow its pace down. Its gotten one season of eight episodes, established the world and the stake as well as the characters mostly. But we haven't actually had time to sit down and watch real slow development. Its been a bit rushed. Not that its a bad show. Quite entertaining, the music is also pretty good. Only issue is the pacing.

[@Smackmate]

I can relate to the world building part because I'm having the same issues with Jujutsu Kaisen. There's a lot of world building that I feel wastes time and not enough character building, characters being introduced with no real backstory or flashbacks that feel borderline vapid or come too late for me to care.

[@corvobatarin6785]

I'm not through the whole video yet so I might delete this later: The reason Charlie is trying to get sinners into heaven is named in the show, either in the pilot or one of the first episodes: Heaven is coming down to Hell and exterminate the sinners under the guise of preventing overpopulation/the possibility of an uprising of sinners against heaven. To prevent sinners from getting killed, she's trying to find an alternative, something others appearantly have never considered so far. The fact that nobody in the show actually KNOWS how a soul gets into heaven or hell is, imo, a huge reveal. It's somewhat hinted to with what we know of the sinners in this show and in Helluva Boss, them being either generally or occasionally bad people. I don't think the show is a platform for Vivzies friends or friends' friends like you suggested, considering almost the entire cast was replaced after the pilot. There was a similar lack of background in Helluva Boss in the first season, with a lot of it being cleared up in season two. I expect the same to happen in S2 of Hazbin after what happened in the last two episodes

[@Chopstewie]

It wasn't a rock, it was a rock lobster!

[@joeljimenez6675]

Sir pentious

[@spaceace9103]

True

[@Sonicfalcon16]

My guess on the plot was Charlie tries to get people in hell to be better people to get to heaven or at least something like that. And some would get better while others not so much and if you did get better you would ether come back to life or go to heaven

[@GrayD_Fox]

0/10 didn’t do the obvious Charlie on top of Verbalase. Nifty was on the pilot but it’s the case of blink and you’ll miss it, which the pilot is full of. Alaster introduces her and she does her thing for 10 seconds then she’s just in the background for the rest of the episode, so I can’t blame you for forgetting her.

[@rebecca3647]

My main criticism of Hazbin Hotel (and Helluva Boss) is that Vivzie spends too much time away from her main cast throughout the series. Considering Hazbin Hotel, the main cast consists of Charlie, Vaggie, Alastor, Angelus, Husker, Niffty, and Sir Pentious. That's seven characters already, so why not spend the first season exploring each character of the main cast, one episode each? Instead, we get new character introductions almost every single episode, and the cast feels so bloated if you're doing that. Or maybe that's just my take, and I'm wrong to think that, I dunno.

[@N00BSYBORG]

Hard to believe someone who doubles down on "peepee poopoo fuck" jokes would have a childish view on religion or struggle with writing compelling characters and world building.

[@stripedgillette3580]

I'm watching HH for the peepee poopoo fuck jokes. And its very open about that from the jump. Why would you watch if you don't like that brand of humor?

[@N00BSYBORG]

@stripedgillette3580 Actually it wasn't open about that from the jump. The pilot was a lot more focused on establishing the characters, world and the idea of trying to redeem demons. I don't really care regardless. You're free to create or enjoy whatever you want. Just don't try to act like the content in question has more substance than it really does when people point out how shallow it is.

[@stripedgillette3580]

@@N00BSYBORG No, it was pretty crass and crude. And Helluva Boss just made it more obvious. Also; who are you talking about? This show is advertised and enjoyed as a crude comedy, not a deep drama.

[@GraphiteShores]

@@stripedgillette3580 I kind of hate this "peepee poopoo fuck"' viewpoint, not because it is invalid (I think the writing is something to be worked on) but rather that it is more confrontational than it needs to be as well as not addressing the root causes of people's frustration. The attitude of the overall show(s) has always been very 'internet early aughts deviant art' level of humor except without the homophobia; Very crude, brash and written off the cuff. This often works in a lot of bawdy musicals such as Kinky Boots, BeetleJuice and Rocky Horror Picture Show, but the writers just seem stuck in having that ONE type of humor for EVERY character rather than the type of humor saying something about the character. Like Beetlejuice doing 'peepee poopoo fuck' jokes is fine because he is a dead crude disgusting individual who contrasts with the terrified uppity couple and manages to mesh with the sarcastic goth. If you don't LIKE that type of humor, you can always go with the other characters and look at Beetlejuice from their perspective. With Hazbin and Helluva, however, that type of humor is wiped ALL OVER; so if you don't like that type of humor it can REALLY take people out of wanting to watch it.

[@N00BSYBORG]

@stripedgillette3580 No you're confusing it with Helluva Boss. That's alright. It's an honest mistake since those characters all look the same.

[@Freelancer837]

To the creator, Hell is an aesthetic and that's the only thing they cared about. That and songs. Everything else is extra and takes a back seat to that. The main characters are all the least interesting characters too. I will say, Alastor has a more interesting story going on than every other character in the show, but he only had like two scenes for his story, and both were in music numbers. The show didn't seem to have the time to do what it wanted, and suffered because of it. The final episode is probably the worst on ein the show and the fight scenes were like a joke. Charlie and Vaggie have a powerup moment and they both literally get taken down in one shot and are immediately all beat up and like they're on their last leg. It's a joke. They killed Sir Pentious in the last episode in a joke and then immediately tried turning it into a serious emotional "Oh no he's dead" moment that doesn't work because you killed him IN A JOKE. Even if he came back as an angel at the very end, that doesn't make up for those scenes.

[@TheSavior-zq4ls]

Sir Pentious dying in a jokingly manner fits the show and I love it lol

[@rhyno39]

I'm not sure if Sir Pentious dying was supposed to be interpreted as a joke. I think they were trying to go for a "he was there one moment, then gone in the next" kinda vibe, but I don't think they played that as well as they could've. Besides, if they went all dramatic with it, I feel that it might've made his transition into heaven feel cheated, cheapened his death, or something like that

[@TheGrimmjowisaboss]

At 12 minutes in I just wanted to say it was a plot point I thinking episode 6 that no one knows the rules and they just make it up

[@tigre3108]

Honestly feel like this show works way better if you don’t use the conventional or religious framework to view the world building (since the creators are not interested in doing that anyways) and just think of them as aliens on 2 different planets. One used to be part of the other and then they were expelled and hunted cause they were deemed morally corrupt or labeled as evil or whatever. The religious aesthetic is mainly meant to be, like Plague said in the video, 90s edge to get people talking about the show

[@AzraelSoulHunter]

That still wastes a lot of potential. Which is pretty damn sad.

[@dwreanchinotan]

25:00 i am also an introvert who likes world building. funny enough I've been wanting to sit down and write out a hazbin AU cosmology that explains why (the show) is the way the way that it is

[@ericquiabazza2608]

This show will only be remember as Glee, the animation. And maybe for its design. Thta is everything the staff go for after all

[@geovane19]

Both in Hazbin Hotel and Heluva Boss, the humor is great and the animation is fine, but the drama is cringe indulcing, I dropped both because of this.

[@BuddaPark]

I think Vizipop should listen to this. Could probably help for Season 2. Goat take as always PlagueOfGripes! Luv ya man.

[@alex_ho]

My opinion of Viv's series is, don't think too hard about it, it's just for fun The series has a ton of issues, but long as it's entertaining I don't mind it

[@Anonymous-bl8df]

Viv should try a different genre that suited her or if she wants to do this she and her team need better approach. A show about redemption of former humans is something audeince supposed to be serious about it, right?

[@TheSavior-zq4ls]

​@@Anonymous-bl8df its like a cartoon like adventure Time or regular show it has mature stuff in it but it doesn't really take itself too seriously

[@Anonymous-bl8df]

@@TheSavior-zq4ls then why those shows work(for many people) but not with hazbin hotel? Could there be any reasons behind it?

[@TheSavior-zq4ls]

@@Anonymous-bl8df because hazbin hotel is not for everyone, it's very vulgar and has religious implications which is very controversial

[@BradyRamaker]

As far as I can tell, Viziepop's Deviant art/tumblr background informs all her writing, where you come up with OCs and have them vibe out. Premises and settings are largely contrivances and conceits to create a backdrop for hanging out and interacting. Like a prompt for an improv class, and they all dissolve into Coffee Shop Slice of Life Sitcoms. Both Helluva Boss and Hazbin are basically the TV show Friends, where a bunch of characters hang out and navigate life in funny little scenarios. The mechanisms of how it all works is sidelined for vibes. How do they afford huge apartments in Manhattan? Why aren't there black people in New York? The answer the show gives is "who cares, Joey just said how you doin! lol!" It's fine if you just wanna write a sitcom, not explore authentic life in New York. The premise of Hazbin Hotel would make you think it implies exploring a system of morality. The definitions & mechanisms of sin, damnation, & redemption aren't just background lore, but the very crux of the story. If you write a story about someone trying to recover from drugs, you'd dive into the details of their addiction, what narcotics they take, how they work, how the characters get them, how it affects their lives and importantly what getting clean means both physically and emotionally. Otherwise you're not really writing a story about recovery, you're just writing a vibes based drama. The plotline feels like you could have Charlie open up a coffee house in Hell where she puts "purity" in the brew which makes a sinner "redeemed", and Heaven hates that because it's not earning it or whatever. You'd arrive at the same end point where characters come work for or patronize the cafe and get up to wacky schenanigans, and the mechanisms of redemption would be just as explored.

[@4dragons632]

Personally I like seeing heaven and hell get flandarised and mined for symbolism until they lose all meaning, although that might be just out of spite for the concepts. Overall I think the biggest problem with Hasbin Hotel is how extremely hurried it was. We should have seen Charlie greeting dozens of demons who each stay at the hotel for half a day before deciding redemption is too hard and leaving, we should have had the Radio Demon hosting a radio talk show where he talks crap about all the guests and then Charlie calls in to the show to tell him off. We should have had 6 episodes before Charlie even meets with an angel at all. There are like a million great things that can be done with this premise, and the show barely takes a pass at any of them. Despite everything I do like the show a fair bit though.

[@lucent7000]

Besides the 8 episode limit, I think I read they didn't know if they were getting a season 2 until late in production. So that didn't help things. I wish publisher's would just trust in what they're investing in and give the creator the room they need to make what they actually need to. So many good things were just dropped by Netflix. Very annoying.

[@cesarsilva408]

Funny, I have a group of friends that shared "reviews" about series and they recommended to me True Detective exactly cause I said that "I was looking into something more philosophical or with substance". Maan, what a ride! It is pretty famous but if you haven't watched it yet, do give a try! I hope I don't share your opinion about it when I watch it lol Though two of my friends also thought it should be seeing if there was nothing else to be seen.

[@Gatekid3]

i dont think we need to know why heaven is so good or how to get there. the premise made me think the point was personal growth over hitting a checklist. The fact charlie is just running with an assumed path to betterment could have been fun to explore. Maybe Charlie has to learn she has a infantalized vision of betterment that wont help most Adults (Maybe it could for Sir Pentious who seems receptive to kindness). maybe we get to see characters like angel change not do to her methods, but the fact that she cares so much (I think that is the idea with Angel but it's very poorly conveyed). It's important to know at SOME point because we need to know if a soul can be saved but to me that, and heaven not knowing could have all been season 2 stuff while the focus at the start is just making us care about these guys enough to WANT them to be saved (outside of liking the IDEA of them) and giving us enough world building to see the other characters as threats to that and not just evil side characters across town. I like world building and I think this show has a lot that's unclear, but I think the show could have hand-waved a few things I would have liked to know if it focused on characters trying/failing to become better instead of making the show so world focused.

[@mrcorrupteddata]

You sound like a person that'd be pretty interesting to hang out and do watch parties with. I usually don't join other people's Discords because of various reasons, but I've watched a good portion of your art gripes and video essays and I'd love to pick your brain about certain things. I tend to like watching stuff at random, yet I am so freakin' choosy and it took my girlfriend and some friends to get me to open my palette to new things so to speak.

[@Mandus_The_Mad]

I understand where your coming from and even I can see through my tinted glasses that the worldbuilding is not something Viv and the team care about all that much. However i'll make the same argument that I make for steven universe. This focus of the show is #1 the characters and #2 the music. If you don't care for either then you probably won't care for the show.

[@guga5708156]

I just think the show could slow down and explore more of its characters, the show is still very enjoyable and good for me, but I expected a little more. Its still a solid show in my opinion.

[@SamuraiMorshu]

Smiling Friends has a better Christian message while still having Newgrounds-esc vulgarity and violence.

[@bleedingberryjuice]

Oh yes the BUTTONS...I'm super autistic and I relate to the buttons so well Viv does not take criticism so sadly she'll never hire anyone to keep the lore in check/making sense but she WILL change characters' backstories based on fan theories (she admitted to doing this with Vaggie) The way I see it, Hazbin's characters are fun but the show itself is underwhelming...in the years after the pilot, fans made a lot of fun "guest of the week" fanfics that did the original premise better than the final product The show is just way too rushed and the ending where Charlie rebuilds the hotel doesn't make sense because they don't even know that Sir Pent made it to heaven...and in the entire five months up to that no one else even showed up to look for redemption? Normally I would not be able to enjoy something like HH because I'm so picky with writing but the character designs won me over so my imagination can fill in the gaps Nothing is explained, the lore is contradictory and alllll over the place--just do yourself a favor and read the wiki if you don't have time to sit through dozens of livestreams and read through years of archived twts--and often gets retconned with no real explanation as to why Aside from the very basis building blocks of each character, the canon feels like a recommendation Viv has done a lot of things I don't personally support so I'll sail the high seas for it but I enjoyed this wacky cartoon a lot It's a nice change of pace that so many of the characters are sexy--to me, personally (speaking as a bi girl) Alastor is best boy btw

[@Tomha]

I'm hoping that Season 2 will slowdown a bit and focus more on the world building. My sister and I were chatting about theories on Alastor and while she thinks Lilith or Roa are involved, I had a less...supported idea.