Hazbin Hotel: The 7 Deadly Sins of Modern Writing

[@TDAKT]

Honestly I feel like this show was specifically for the people who have waited years to see all of these random characters literally do anything.

[@blackchickiedee7]

I've noticed that too because nothing really happens in the show... so HH just comes across as basically "here's your show damn" because fans were getting tired of making their own plot/scenarios. And the fact that you literally have to go online to find out things about the show and its characters is further proof. Fans shouldn't have to resort to social media to find out how the world building works, the plot, characters, content, etc. That's literally what a show is suppose to do. HH got way too popular and for that, now it feels like the creator is just letting fans make connections in their own time through social media, implement fan theories while she plays out the BIG, pivotal stuff in the show. And to me that's not worth getting invested in

[@NeyamStar]

Yup

[@halogeek6]

i am one of those people. this show was definitly not for me.

[@Leafdontfly]

true, lot of people I know that loves this show are just like that...

[@SwordTune]

You know what? I think you're onto something.

[@isabelschmitz7173]

Lucifer has daughter issues

[@TheOpeningDay]

Did you even watch the show He resolves it in the exact same episode he's introduced in 😭

[@rebackup]

@@TheOpeningDay I think this comment is a satire

[@sirstinky6387]

Wouldn't it be the other way around? 🤔 Lucifer DOES have depression, Charlie as far as I'm concerned, doesn't have a good relationship with her father, but she doesn't have depression like Lucifer does.

[@cakefrosting6451]

I mean, there’s now such a thing called children abusing their parents, and it’s even a criminal offence, soooooooo…

[@lxmesoda]

​@@cakefrosting6451he never abused her?? what???

[@AZ-ty7ub]

It feels like Vivziepop wants to have these "chaotic evil" characters but can't follow through because that would mean people seeing her overly beloved OCs as the bad guy, so you end up with this dissonance of having and archon of hell giving you self-care advice.

[@Retard634]

safe edge the rabm response to national socialist black metal none of these "people" are actually edgy and do their best to get all the interesting shit banned

[@AZ-ty7ub]

@@Retard634 what?

[@saul_goodmanirl]

​@@Retard634didnt expect black metal here out of all places

[@midorithefestivegardevoir6727]

You know, a chaotic evil character that hides behind/spouts self-care advice as they commit atrocities is a pretty good premise. You should use it.

[@AZ-ty7ub]

@@midorithefestivegardevoir6727 I mean Hannibal is one of my favorite shows after all.

[@kenthefele113]

It’s crazy how the pilot was way better written than the actual show.

[@JustSomeDinosaurPerson]

Naw, not really. They are both not good.

[@tinycandleman6020]

It's not that crazy, because they had way more freedom in the pilot. Amazon gave them half the episodes they wanted to have, so they just crammed twice as much content as there was supposed to be instead of slimming the story down.

[@websterston]

@@tinycandleman6020I think this is also the same reason fans like HB more. The crew has a lot more freedom, and there’s more that’s being done with the world building. I personally didn’t like the Hazbin pilot, but HB is what got me interested in this Hellverse and its hierarchy. The I.M.P business was a breathe of fresh air as the perfect contrast to Charlie’s Hotel of Redemption. The exposition sin that was explained here doesn’t seem to be as present in HB. But maybe that’s jus me

[@akira8393]

yeah it was the best one honestly, both hasbin and helluva boss being really poor to me when it's serialize but the pilot was still good even rewatching it.

[@Zilatra]

And this is why I wish Amazon never got involved

[@logical_141]

For hell being so “overpopulated” it sure does feel really empty.

[@Sifya]

Yes the housing isn't terrible either, if in comic angel dust for having a studio flat he only needed to have oral sex with the owner. In UK biggest cities I'm paying 600 no bill include.

[@TTSP907]

It isn’t overpopulated, that was the whole point.

[@logical_141]

@@TTSP907 Charlie acknowledged that hell was overpopulated, that’s why she went to Adam in the first place. She was providing an alternative solution to their overpopulation problem that didn’t involve killing.

[@jordankelso1230]

We start right after a culling though so it wouldn't be very overpopulated

[@carlosdgutierrez6570]

Doesn't Carmille say that something like a sixth or a fifth of the whole population was killed that year's extermination in the overlord meeting? With such population loss it isn't surprising that right after extermination the place is a bit empty before being refilled with the new year decease.

[@alexismaldonado6396]

This is a very random nitpick, but most of the cast died during different times, but Rosie, Alastor and Mimzy are the only ones who act like they’re from a different time period. It would’ve been interesting to see everyone have certain mannerisms and values that tie in with the time they were alive.

[@RoamingTrend]

That would require thought and care of different time periods.

[@whoasked3961]

​@@RoamingTrend To be fair, Alastor is specifically meant to be stuck in his ways, disliking newer technology, and refusing to adapt to modern hell society. His two friends would naturally be other characters who've chosen not to adapt as well, both specifically being from his own time period. That would contrast the characters who are more inclined to adapt as hell does, right?

[@matijasostojic4288]

Im kinda sad we don't have any overlord who is Like REALLY old. Like I don't know how old Zestial is but from the way he talks he is atleast a few centuries. You could make a Point that everybody else adapted to the Times but from how Alastor only talk to Zesty I can't see Carmilla, Flaming skull man or the big dog? girl Being older than maybe Alastor.

[@DrawciaGleam02]

@@RoamingTrend Or maybe just a moment where its required to use tech from a specific time period to solve an issue?

[@GamerGod_99]

@@RoamingTrend Yeaaaaaa but as we all know the past is EVIL and BIGOTED and Vivziepop knows better than to take inspiration from it because she's just so smart and stunning

[@protonjones54]

Wait what? Charlie is advertised as having daddy issues, and her dad is like, the most wholesome character on the show? Edit: 95% of the replies be like, "uhm, ackshually-" 🤓

[@RoamingTrend]

Yup

[@protonjones54]

@@RoamingTrend dafuq

[@irediche]

Yeah, it almost looks like her issues with him is that he is not messed up

[@LuckythecatZ-]

Literally, i saw people talking about her supposed daddy issues and when i watched the show got so confused Like Hes really nice?? He is supportive and came asap when charlie called. I think it has something to do with the divorce or seperation of lilith and lucifer (though idk which it is?? Idk if theyre divorced or not or how lilith left with charlie if only lilith is gone if you know whaz i mean))

[@YouraverageNewbie]

Uhm, Its not that Charlie got like abused by Lucifer or anything like how I red that comment, its that she didn't have much time to see Lucifer because he was always busy.

[@olive92]

Vivziepop never grew out of her edgy teenage mentality and it shows, both in her show, and how she interacts with literally any criticism.

[@olive92]

fds jgopf gi and I wrote this after seeing the final sin was Pride. RIP Vivzie, I would say it was a nice career while it lasted, but that would be a lie.

[@yurisei6732]

This is very common for writers now. They start out writing fanfic in fandom spaces, where their goal is to spend more time enjoying characters and stories they already like. Then when they try to turn that into a career, they have to start having original ideas, but they're not actually interested in having original ideas because writing for them is about enjoying their favourite stories, not exploring new concepts or discovering the depths of reality or even really making a statement. Then in the case of screenwriters, when they fail to pitch their own ideas, they have to find work writing other people's ideas, and because as writers they're laser-focused on the things they already like, they struggle to approach other people's projects honestly, and they criticise their own writing. That's why everything has meta commentary nowadays, why nothing can ever just commit to using a trope, it has to include a joke about how the trope it uses is cliche - it's written by people who have no interest in any story except the one that became their favourite as a teenager.

[@angel_of_rust]

millenials shouldn't be allowed to write fr. There's something fundamentally wrong with that generation esp. if they're from California or California-like upbringing.

[@toplel1860]

Yeah as someone who never heard of her and was recommended one of her shows the first thing I thought to myself this animation is great but man the writing comes off like it was made by an edgy 14 year old.

[@spinosaurusstriker]

Its not really even true edgy

[@armi999]

10 people on the writing team is an immediate red flag, too many cooks comes immediately to mind.

[@RoamingTrend]

Having that many writers isn't too bad, but its clear that there was a single focus or direction for them to use.

[@armi999]

@@RoamingTrend Gotta disagree, and I'd say your video supports my position. This is the first season of a show that doesn't have a long run time or lots of episodes, it needed the focus a team of 2-3 writers can bring. 10 writers is something I'd expect for season 3 of a 20 episode hour long show.

[@RoamingTrend]

@armi999 sorry, I meant that having 10 writers wouldn't necessarily always result in bad writing. Depends on directing at the point. If the vision is consistent, there could be 100 writers and still get writing. Just unlikely.

[@ArawnOfAnnwn]

@@RoamingTrend On the point of Convolution, I disagree. What you're asking for is a fundamentally SIMPLE story, with a main character who undertakes a QUEST in a world that essentially exists just for them. To me the most interesting stories take place in a vibrant WORLD that exists independent OF rather than FOR the heroes we may be following. Among the many sins of the later seasons Game of Thrones for instance, is in how they callously narrowed down the story to just 3, and eventually 2, competing factions with all the other characters either killed off, absorbed or discarded. The early seasons were compelling because of how rich the world was with this complex web of competing interests. An even better example of Game of Thrones would be the anime Baccano, in which you'd be hard pressed to even identify any of the characters as the MAIN character. And, short as it is, Baccano was glorious in its plotting. I'd rather see more shows like Baccano. Funnily enough, there's a genre of anime that VERY neatly adheres to the KISS principle, and it's hardly seen as a shining example of great storytelling - the isekai harem anime. The quintessential example of worlds' seeming to exist purely for the sake of the main character, including with the side characters literally all revolving around him. No thanks. Convoluted plots can be very interesting, so long as they make sense (like the struggle for power in Game of Thrones). Also watch Baccano! I think it'd make a great companion piece to this.

[@ArawnOfAnnwn]

​@@RoamingTrend On the point of Immaturity i.e. all the swearing, you seem to come from what I call the default position of Tolerance. What that means is that you dislike shows with a lot of swearing, but are willing to excuse it if they justify it somehow. The more extreme position is Intolerance, for whom swearing is a turnoff regardless of context. Tbh I come from the other side - I don't need swearing to justify itself, as it doesn't bother me at all. I never really got why it needed to be justified - if characters happen to like swearing a lot, so be it. It doesn't make them or the show any better or worse in my eyes. Similar to how some people question others fashion choices, but may be willing to excuse it if they have good reason to be dressed like that. For me the only reason needed is that they like it. Incidentally there's a similar set of positions wrt sexual and/or violent content in media, where again there's those who can't stand it and those who aren't bothered by it at all. As such I don't consider the show to be immature simply cos there's lots of swearing and sex. Shows and specific characters in shows can be immature in other ways maybe, but not just cos of the kind of language they use.

[@Sushiphu]

"If you dont like it, dont watch" is a terrible position for a writer to have when your writing is otherwise the safest thing you can make for a very simple audience.

[@thehorrorarchivers7347]

Thank you sushiphu that logic of if you dont like it dont watch it excuse is just another way to dodge criticism when you realized the critic is right here and there.

[@Sushiphu]

@@thehorrorarchivers7347 In Vivi's case 100%. If a creator is making something low budget or trying something super experimental I could understand the sentiment, toby fox said something similar before releasing deltarune for example, but hazbin hotel was bankrolled by A24 which is not a small studio. After years of prep I feel like the writing should be better, but when ever I engage with the fanbase the response I've gotten is some variation of "just dont watch it", "you're expecting too much" or "you're just a crazy religious nut job" lol. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the same mindset of the show's creator.

[@thehorrorarchivers7347]

@@Sushiphu huh never knew the hazbin fanbase is so varied but i just wish viz and other creators like her can accept these critics i mean the critic is not here to destroy her work they are pointing out flaws that a show displayed so that the creator can learn from this and make sure they do not make the same mistake next time what happened to that?

[@herrabanani]

honestly i took that advice. after seing a character say "i'm the dick master" i couldn't watch further due to immense cringe. i was really excited from the pilot, it's a shame honestly

[@thehorrorarchivers7347]

@@herrabanani lets be honest the pilot had its fair share of crude humor and mindless violence the reason why people bothered with hazbin was for the concept but sadly the finished product(season 1) tried to hard to be more than redeeming sinners with hotel and instead tries to become this epic story with lore and mystery bait to get the audience hooked.

[@PlagueOfGripes]

The series isn't really written. It's a series of projection fantasy setups for dolls. The writing is immature and obvious, which at first may seem intentional for the characters but quickly becomes apparent is a limitation of the creative team. One of the biggest issues bad or young writers have is falling in love with the idea of their characters instead of what's actually on the paper. Characters expositing the premise for other characters is exhibit A for this problem. It's rushing to establish a doll instead of using the premise to convey a story.

[@dio8156]

It all just feels so incredibly insincere as do all "adult" animations, not to mention the godawful dialogue. I hated the Netflix Castlevania series for the same "sailor mouth" stuff.

[@tehskullmunkymedia594]

Speak of Cartoon Lesbians, & Plague appears. So hows the progress on that Fence going?

[@spotty530]

@@dio8156dude that’s so true. i enjoyed both castlevania and hazbin hotel, but the dialogue of both shows always rubbed me the wrong way even when i was watching the episodes with positive expectations

[@AyatollahVulture]

@@dio8156 bruh Isaac has the most cringest shit, the writers literally ripped off fucking Albert Einstein's quote about madness shit actually made me crunch up and groan in pain. i dont mind cussing if its done RIGHT. theres such a thing as awkward cussing and it should only be used by characters that it makes sense for them to cuss

[@user-AADZ]

You literally wrote the precursor to furrymon

[@moldycheese6635]

About the scene where Husk just states everyone’s issues out loud, maybe it would’ve been better if those assumptions were just completely wrong. It would establish that Husk thinks he knows everything when he actually doesn’t. Idk what the writers would do with that from there, but I think it’s a start

[@NegaWarhead]

That's actually a pretty good idea

[@Astropeleki]

That scene would have been pretty funny if, by the time it played, what he says is known to the viewer. It would be a fun way to show how these characters react when confronted with the truth: however we know nothing of Vaggie's motivation other than "Charlie wants it, so I'll do it" and Charlie has shown exactly 0 interactions with her dad, making it impossible to ever remotely she has a difficult relationship with him. Which is why that scene is more confusing than funny.

[@shadowmarionette9397]

The entire plot of Hazbin Hotel is Charlie desperately trying to explain what the supposed plot of Hazbin Hotel.

[@Deeznuggets592]

You sound like a Rick and Morty fanboy

[@shadowmarionette9397]

@@Deeznuggets592 No, I'm a FNAF fan.

[@CrazyLikeUhFox]

@@shadowmarionette9397A FnaF fan? Shitting on Hazbin Hotel? Based.

[@shadowmarionette9397]

@@CrazyLikeUhFox I'm not shitting on it, I was making a joke.

[@Noelle_Holiday]

@@shadowmarionette9397 As a Deltarune fan myself, hearing about a FNAF fan roasting the hell out of Hazbin Hotel is actually kinda based.

[@hamstrungharry259]

I think the writers probably thought having daddy issues meant having a dad.

[@Gm-ce5kg]

that's not roasted , its full burn

[@Rikken552]

Like having roaches is considered a roach problem

[@Stephanie-mv9iy]

​@@Rikken552if you see one roach everyone once a month you don't don't a roach problem

[@enzoqueijao]

​@@Stephanie-mv9iyMaybe none of us don't don't a roach problem 😔

[@Stephanie-mv9iy]

@@enzoqueijao maybe maybe none one of us is an impostor.

[@trypticon8619]

“Adult” animated shows always remind me of a certain quote, restrictions bring creativity, with kids shows, you can’t show in depth violence or ham fist in deep topics, instead you have to allude to them, letting the audience’s imagination fill the blanks in The best example I can think of is from gravity falls, quote Bill cipher: You two stay here, I have some children I need to make into corpses” That line is so much more threatening than anything I’ve heard in years

[@vitoc8454]

Meanwhile it's hilarious when some kids shows shy away from depicting "real guns" and give cops laser pistols

[@NeyamStar]

Ikkrrr

[@charlesmartiniii1405]

I mean yall say this, but there are so many unrestricted anime that is just as creative if not more

[@Kidneyjoe42]

@@charlesmartiniii1405 That's due to cultural differences. In the US there has been this idea for quite a while now that animation is inherently childish and a less serious form of art. This idea doesn't hurt actual kids' shows as much because the biases of the writers aren't at odds with what they're creating. But in adult animation it results in writers being hesitant to really commit to making something mature. This perception isn't as prevalent or as extreme in some other places, with Japan being probably the most well known example.

[@BartlebyScrivener-oz6mk]

Or like Azula telling Zuko she's about to celebrate becoming an only child

[@SpikeJet2736]

Angels being just as evil as the demons they fight is a very subversive and fresh take on the biblical myth... is what I would say if this came out in 1990

[@worldweaver2691]

yeah

[@martinlorca2024]

Yes

[@Scantronimus466]

It’s exactly the same as Spawn…which came out in the 90s.

[@shadowfox8425]

😅😅

[@SpikeJet2736]

@@Scantronimus466 to be fair I said 1990, Spawn came out in 1992 although I'm sure there were plenty of other stories that did the same thing around that time.

[@spongecakes1986]

Bro, why does Lucifer Morningstar, the DEVIL HIMSELF, look like a gender swapped Apple White from Ever After High just with sharp teeth? And why is he more likeable than her?

[@Madzillahx]

OH MY DAYS YOU'RE BANG ON 💀🙏🙏

[@carolinemendell1963]

LMFAO I WAS WONDERING WHY HE LOOKED SO FAMILIAR

[@aff77141]

Literally he's so ridiculously fun, him and Alastor are the only vivziepop creations i enjoy. They really should've taken all his character and put it on Charlie. But oh well.

[@spongecakes1986]

@@Madzillahx he even has the apple motif! I feel like it can't be a coincidence at that point.

[@halogeek6]

becuase "progressive" writers have zero self awareness and honestly think caring and effectionate dads are evil.

[@TheDoughboy1917]

To me, and I am by no means a professional or hyper competent writer, it seems like all of these characters are Vizie's OC that she's *super* passionate about. She knows exactly where she wants them all to end up but doesn't want to go through the process of building up their characters, she wants instant pay off so she can get to the big fight scene that she's imagined in her head while listening to music. I'm actually kind of shocked there are so many writers because this show feels like if you gave (and I am speaking from personal experience here lol) a Tumblr user completely free regin to make a show about all their original characters with 0 additional oversight.

[@usunposta915]

exactly what i was thinking about when watching. i like the show personally, but it seems like a world that viv created when she was 15 and tried to changed as little as possible bc of how attached she is to the story. sorry for the english!

[@Corrector1]

A lot of people have tried to excuse the show's pacing issues by pointing to the season's low episode count. But "Helluva Boss" has also received criticism for rushing through its plot points even though it doesn't have a set amount of episodes. I don't think the episode count is the problem, I think this is just how Viv writes. As a possible example of Viv being overly passionate about her characters, I'll point to episode 3. I found Carmilla's second musical number strange, because we've just met this character. I haven't actually gotten the chance to know her or see her relationship with her daughters, so how can I take any meaning from her singing about how she wants to protect them? I think what may have happened is that Viv already knew the characters' history and motivations and was emotionally invested with her, but didn't consider that the audience may not feel the same connection to her.

[@anfani6839]

I think she has waaaaaay too many characters - this also is a problem with Helluva Boss, I think - It feels like she wants to make a character every time a new idea pops inside her head and then wants to write them into the story, no matter how much they fit/not fit into the narrative

[@realdragon]

I started writing, I'm not that good by all means and it is really tempting to write "And this happened, then this happened to MC and this" without all the build up. I have ideas for far future but first MC needs to deal with current problems

[@Spino-hx2mr]

"so she can get to the big fight scene that she's imagined in her head while listening to music." Shit. I'm guilty of this. Oh, well, at least I understand that my skill is unrefined at the moment. don't exactly want to fall into this pitfall, though.

[@UnofficialAstronaut-ul7zh]

What I find... intriguing, is Vivzie created a PERFECT setup for understanding of hell as endless suffering. The society built by "rotting" people, that let each other dive in a sin, destroying each other and themselves in a result. You know, "true evil is a man", but it's kinda the point of the setting. The other thing is... I'm not sure they're gonna address it.

[@RoamingTrend]

It's the crab bucket situation. They could've played with that theme if they were smart about it.

[@noxplay4906]

As a Christian this would've been super cool 👍

[@skyxclouds3765]

Its seems she is going for " actually, hell and sinning is good and people who opose them are EVIL and OPPRESIVE!" and i dont like it

[@pheonixrises11]

⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠@@skyxclouds3765I mean, they *could* approach it from the opposite direction, where the rules for who gets into heaven are too restrictive, resulting in plenty good people going to hell. But the issue is probably a lack of willingness to write terribly flawed and even despicable people(people that can contribute to eternal torment)

[@simpleman3898]

​@skyxclouds3765 yes wonderful ideas but it seems she just did the most obvious thing

[@anonymousapproximation8549]

You know what I just realized? Charlie not having Daddy Issues despite everyone saying that she does could've been a wonderful subversion of expectation, where the other characters look at Charlie starting up this project and the fact that Lucifer is the King of Hell, and they just _assume_ that they have a distant relationship, when in reality, Charlie just wants to prove to herself that she's capable pf independence and doing things on her own, or even she's already long proved herself independent, she just doesn't talk with her dad much for one reason or other, and Lucifer lets her be, despite being perfectly happy to just basically spoon feed her to her heart's desire.

[@mlgmelon]

What you suggest is a solid potential direction they could've gone in, but Charlie does have daddy issues. Although he definitely loves his daughter and would do anything for her, the problem was that he wasn't active in her life. When she calls him it's shown that he doesn't remember anything she told him about what she was doing or where she was at. He also rarely calls her unless he needs something or is bored. His obsession with his creative passions caused him to neglect her, despite his love for her. He isn't as bad of a father as Shinji's dad, and her daddy issues aren't as deep but she does have them. Those issues being brushed aside in an episode is a different topic but yeah

[@maevav5645]

What could have been.

[@anonymousapproximation8549]

@@mlgmelon While Charlie having Daddy Issues is what they were going for, the fact it was brushed it aside is the _reason_ it can't be taken seriously. The only logical conclusion, if we enact "death of the author", is that Charlie has no such issues with, or cause by, her father. If the writers realized what they did, they would've had 2 paths to follow; conflict between Charlie and Lucifer, or conflict between everyone else's expectations of Charlie and Lucifer's relationship and the reality of it.

[@Slayrid]

​@@mlgmelonthat ain't bad at all if I'm honest, I thought by daddy issues she meant physical and mental abuse, Lucifer is just an incompetent moron

[@Days_Clouded]

I definitely thought I was tripping when every character under the sun tried saying that Charlie had an absence father, when it isn't portrayed that way at all. All the writer had to do was replace the whole "daddy issue" thing with her mother instead. Not only does Lily have more plot relevance(because of the fact that it's assumed that she is dead when she is very much alive and implied to be in heaven) but it would've been way more subversive. Plus if she has both parents out of her life, then she has to have some sort of caregiver(this could lead to an actual parental competition for Lucifer later on, versus the manufactured one with Alastor)? This series has potential, but it hasn't had the right people to develop the story properly. It was honestly doomed to mediocrity from the start, especially with this being one of Vivian's first pieces.

[@lamented-musings8932]

I think a big issue is that they didn’t redo the pilot so they keep explaining parts from the pilot since the show continues from the pilot.

[@Ilikecookies.]

you know, when i watched the trailer and some teasers, I THOUGHT that ep 1 is a redo of the pilot AND this series have 16-24 EPISODES before I learned there will be 8!!

[@hawkeyemihawkgettingmoneylord]

​@@Ilikecookies.Why would you think the show has 16 episodes? Honestly name 1 show on streaming thats has 16 episodes let alone 24?

[@Ilikecookies.]

@@hawkeyemihawkgettingmoneylordExtraordinary Woo Young Woo? A kdrama with 16 episodes in Netflix. Oh and you asked for a show not specifically an “animated show” that’s why I said a kdrama series. I had hopeful feelings and thoughts that the series will be balanced and good cause when I saw the trailer the clips really shows like “Oh this clip looks like if I estimate it..probably ep 7” in my perspective, even with how people felt like the battle of the exterminators feels like it could be in season 2-3ish. Also I rarely watch animated shows but I see why that Hazbin has 8 episodes cause of the animation added to the production and why I was not surprised when I searched up in the internet that it will be 8 because nowadays we’re just getting new short series or a really old series with 12+ seasons.

[@Sqwivig]

​​@@hawkeyemihawkgettingmoneylord Because 16 to 24 episodes was the standard length of a season for decades. It's only recently within the past 5 years where that hasn't been the norm.

[@hawkeyemihawkgettingmoneylord]

@@Sqwivig try again that was the standard for tv in the past and streaming services rarely have shows longer than 10 episodes. Seems like your not keeping up with the times thats your fault.

[@GPlasticBeach]

I think almost all of these issues stem from the fact that Vivziepop got too popular and was given a show too fast; she had no time to grow and mature as a writer and from day one everyone online told her how good her stuff was

[@joshuafischer684]

I mean, she's had 20 years to develop her writing skills. But the show still comes across like a 14 year old girl wrote it.

[@whatisthisfor12345]

@@joshuafischer684 Stop insulting 14 year olds

[@lolzonezzzz]

@@whatisthisfor12345real

[@Rayman-kddz2]

@@whatisthisfor12345AND START INSULTING 3 YEAR OLDS HOORAH🦅

[@NeyamStar]

Yup

[@Grezilla95]

The parallel to my little pony was CRAZY!!!!💀💀💀

[@im_theodore]

The fact it works so well is even worse

[@AbimaelLopez-hz3qq]

@@im_theodorepeople say Steven universe it’s not really MLP

[@Acidburn1155]

@@AbimaelLopez-hz3qq The fuck are you talking about?

[@DrawciaGleam02]

Same! Is it bad that I've thought about what cutie marks the Hazbin characters would have?

[@fruitloops2058]

​@@AbimaelLopez-hz3qq don't remember SU having an exposition sequence like a story book

[@maskedfoxx7173]

Hazbin Hotel reminds me a lot of my teenage self trying to write stories. It starts with a character design that you really like. You give them their personality and backstory and THEN figure out where and how they can be shoehorned into the main plot. The characters don't really have connections to one another prior to the current plot or if they do it's very serface level/on paper only. It's not that the characters were created for the story, it's that the story was created for the characters.

[@whywouldanyonedothis]

Actually this is kind of what happened with Vivzie- Alastor was a character she created back when she was in middle school, and she decided to put him in Hazbin

[@redpanda6497]

Same, and I wondered why my story was a mess of storylines and ideas that were barely connected together. I stopped thinking about it for years because it didn't go anywhere and now I'm trying to rewrite it. lol

[@maskedfoxx7173]

@@redpanda6497 GG! Hope it works out for you!

[@redpanda6497]

@@maskedfoxx7173 Thanks!

[@martinlorca2024]

​@@redpanda6497 Go on, good luck

[@purgeautomazero5599]

Hazbin hotel trying to distract me with violence in movies and sex on tv so i don't notice the ass writing

[@DrawciaGleam02]

I get the reference you're making...... 😆

[@chopchopmasteryeetus3636]

And where are those good ol' fashioned values on which we used to rely?

[@psychonautmaddy7409]

​@@chopchopmasteryeetus3636lucky there's a family guy

[@Extreme2566]

I understood that reference

[@Noelle_Holiday]

@@psychonautmaddy7409 Lucky there's a man who positively can do all the things that make us... Laugh and cry!

[@usermarongoany5616]

The idea of Adam being written as a mysogonistic, sexist and foulmouthed spoiled teenager felt like the most half assed attempt to make a irredeemable villain out of him. Only to basically swear as a sailor to the very end, into taunting the heroes into worshipping his nuts. Felt like making a villain as flat and hateable as possible, so that the heroes can defeat him and focus on the V's in the next season. If Vizzie can take advice and look into the Bible, i would have written Adam as a grown adult that hated mankind for being descedands of Cain, and still hating his son actions for killing his beloved Abel, beliving that all those who went to Hell, to be deserving for carrying his bloodline and choosing to commit sin. Cruel, but atleast understanding that those who get into heaven have earned it. But still, it leaves the thought of why God allows this genocide to occur, unless being killed by an angel allows one to reïncarnate again, and try to undo his mistakes again on earth. Just a thought i had really.

[@xX_H3BIP1X3L_Xx]

See, that's the problem. You had a thought, Vivziepop didn't. In all seriousness though, you have a point there. I don't think Vivziepop bothered to refer to the bible and other related stories in order to write her story that's based in HELL. I think she just wanted to design cool demons. Maybe she read a paragraph on the mythological tale of Lilith, but that's it. It's pretty obvious when you realize most of the plots happening in the show have nothing to do with hell as a setting, and Adam really has nothing to do with his counterpart in the bible. Which is a shame because it could've been way more interesting than what they went with. Your idea is so much more interesting than whatever the show did.

[@intensestare5027]

​@xX_H3BIP1X3L_Xx vivziepop really isnt referencing the bible at all, mostly just texts and mythology thats based on the bible like Dantes inferno

[@xX_H3BIP1X3L_Xx]

@@intensestare5027 Hold on. At what point did she reference Dante's Inferno?

[@intensestare5027]

@@xX_H3BIP1X3L_Xx the rings of hell are a Dantes inferno thing

[@xX_H3BIP1X3L_Xx]

@@intensestare5027 I mean that's giving her too much credit. The rings are really common knowledge

[@vgmoral]

Ironically, the writers need to read the Bible. They would actually discover a plot for their show and the difference between heaven and hell.

[@DrAngelKins]

The Bible is a gold mine for stories

[@MASTEROFEVIL]

The bible is literally the worlds oldest book in human history. My guess is that they don't want actual religion in a show about Hell. Which is ironic

[@vgmoral]

@@MASTEROFEVIL They probably all think Christianity is bigoted and oppressive. I doubt anyone in their studio is willing to read the Bible or touch one with a ten foot pole, and that's why their plot is a mess of whatever they could substitute theology with.

[@CDizzle3270]

Epic of Gilgamesh homes​@@MASTEROFEVIL

[@itachiaurion3198]

It also has so many plot holes that modern writting would blush at such atrocities.

[@mrtuberculosisscoliosis2417]

does Vivzie only watch South Park for the swearing and not for the social commentary and structured jokes that are present throughout the entirety of an episode

[@artistanthony1007]

Yes, that is definitely a possible explanation.

[@anlydaly5726]

It seems so. Yikes.

[@angel_of_rust]

she's a progressive. what did you expect thank god i always knew that profanity was never the selling point of south park but is in fact just the bait

[@Wallaceismyba]

@@angel_of_rustYou realize south park isn’t conservative either. Its just edgy

[@angel_of_rust]

@@Wallaceismyba i didn't say anything about south park being conservative. i'm just saying the strength of south park is in what they say; the profanity is just bait.

[@bolladragon]

One detail I noticed was Vivzie’s obsession with writing characters with Daddy issues. I inly noticed it after Charlie because it doesn’t make much sense when the entire cast of Helluva Boss (save Millie) has actual relationship troubles with their father figures, and Lucifer is supposed to be distant only to be a great dad the moment Charlie asks for him. It feels like Lucifer being a good father was an accident. Like you said, Viv and the crew don’t know much about actual Christian mythology. Make Lucifer a control freak. It would perfectly reflect the actual fallen angel and explain both Charlie’s choice to stay distant, Lucifer enthusiasm to help, and why he’s depressed since Hell doesn’t need his guidance.

[@Light-ro5bp]

She also seems to avoid writing mothers for some reason (save Millie, again), in Helluva Boss they are either dead, missing or have no relationship whatsoever with their daughter *cough* Stella and Octavia *cough*, at least they are hyping Lilith in Hazbin though I’m still a little disappointed we didn’t get to see Eve, it would have been cool if she were Lute instead as a nice contrast with whatever is going on with Lucifer’s marriage. EDIT: Actually I might have spoken a little too soon on Eve, wasn’t there a supposed leak where she is the final villain? I wouldn’t be surprised if the writers avoid her entirely either, if the former turns out to be true scratch the last part of my original comment.

[@supernova2727]

yes! this lucifer is an AWFUL adaptation of the bible character. if lucifer was written as a “too imposing father” itd be much more believable regarding charlie’s “daddy issues”… or you can literally make him a good father but still an imposing figure 😭 like i said in my own comment, i believe this lucifer just ISNT actually lucifer, hes lacking fire, passion and, most importantly, PRIDE.

[@RushWheeler]

Never understood why people keep making religious fiction based on religions they know nothing about. Didn't we have enough with Gods of Egypt and Clash of the Titans?

[@joshuaslawson9125]

​@@RushWheelerI think part of it is, Christianity is the "easy" target, but in doing so it became stale and boring.

[@supernova2727]

@@RushWheeler right, its just soooo frustrating. bible lore is cool as shit ppl should read it to adapt it, i love what the show “Lucifer” did with it, honestly

[@williamswonderland3636]

It's like I always say "adult" animation is much more juvenile than childrens shows.

[@DoubleDragon-ks2hk]

I think it's because children shows have more restrictions on what you can show, say and do in them so writers are forced to be more creative and sutdul with the message they want to send.

[@williamswonderland3636]

@@DoubleDragon-ks2hk perhaps. Although my friend had a theory that there not for adults there for yong adults like teens and stuff.

[@RandomDude647]

for the most part yeah, but there are a few gems out there. bojack horseman comes to mind

[@williamswonderland3636]

@@RandomDude647 your right that is of higher quality from what I've seen but it's more of an exception that in some ways proves the rule because not that meny teens are into it as they are into something like has bin at least in my circles

[@mrziggyzaggy113]

i think there is some great adult aninmation that is really mature and has great messaging. like trigun, which isnt specifically made for adults but wouldnt really be understood well by younger children and teens, nor is it exactly meant for them either and especially the manga, but that doesnt exactly count as animation. same with beserk

[@youknowwhoelsecantthinkofagood]

Don’t know if anyone else has mentioned this, but I think another major problem with the show is the characters are way too similar to each other! They all seemingly fall into one of three categories: a) The character is extremely quirky/fruity/flamboyant, but they secretly harbor a dark past, almost always involving familial issues. b) They’re cartoonishly evil/psychotic/edgy, but they’re actually good at heart, despite having killed numerous people without remorse. c) A one-dimensional asshole who likes putting the protagonists down just because they can. Furthermore, a ton of the characters don’t seem like they would fit in with the indescribable horrors that one would expect in, y’know, Hell. The only main characters who kinda do are the overlords, and even so, they’re actually pretty polite and sometimes even courteous. In fact, all the overlords ever seem to do is sit around twirling their mustaches, maybe occasionally killing some disposable henchmen.

[@blackchickiedee7]

Yeah I don't like how Alastor was reduced to being like everyone else. I know the show is trying to cover it up with "oooo, but he's so scary and mysterious" but honestly it's shallow - there's no substance to Alastor anymore because turns out "but he's on a leash too, feel sorry for him because he wants to be free, he's a victim too UwU" like, at this point who HAVEN'T we felt sorry for? And I swear if all of his "pain and suffering" comes from having daddy issues too I'm going to lose it lol He's just a pretentious edge lord and the show is trying to manipulate people into thinking he's such a deep and compelling character. And the lack of villain variety sucks. I was hoping that since the show's setting is hell we would be getting more sinister, conniving antagonists but no, all of them are just "haha goofy, they make sex jokes too, they're silly and quirky too and spaz out like a bunch of 14 year olds" is this really all the creator could do after ten years of working on this and these characters? At this point I don't even think she was working on the story that whole time

[@youknowwhoelsecantthinkofagood]

@@blackchickiedee7 That’s kinda what I noticed too. Almost everyone in the show is a victim of some sort. Even when someone who seems like the cause of every victim comes about, the show writers feel the need to give them as many sympathy points as possible. Sometimes, a villain who’s evil just because they’re f***ed in the head can work perfectly. Emperor Palpatine didn’t need a tragic backstory to be compelling. Villains like Palpatine are awesome because they’re the ones who are responsible for others’ tragic backstories. Edit: And no, I don’t think Adam counts because I’m referring to overarching villains, not a disposable, one-dimensional character that only serves to give season one an easily solvable conflict.

[@blackchickiedee7]

@@youknowwhoelsecantthinkofagood And even another great example of a villain who was just messed up because he enjoyed it was Jack Horner from PiB: the last wish. Dude literally had a fine childhood and he still turned out to be a jerk. How in the world did Dreamworks freakin Dreamworks able to pull off three types of villains in one movie and yet HH we get same ole archetype? If Alastor had a tragic backstory as a kid, fine, I'll accept that, he was a mixed man during the 20th century, so I'm sure he experienced his own hell. But that's already been done before with other characters who have issues with their dad. I honestly thought Alastor was chaotic neutral because he understood what he did in life and wasn't interested in being redeemed. Either because he felt he didn't deserve it or that he had accepted the consequences of his actions and he was fine with that. I thought Valentino and Vox were going to be more sinister and sneaky. I thought Lucifer was not going to care about Charlie's goal because he's literally PRIDE PERSONIFIED, and was in cahoots with heaven somehow but no. All we got was: 1. Ambiguous sassy deer boi 2. Basic abuser 3. Over the top Alastor palette swap 4. Goofy dad who has depression Am I in the twilight zone? What is going on??

[@blknmongl342]

@@youknowwhoelsecantthinkofagood Don't forget one of the best villains ever written in fiction, Judge Holden. Guy is super educated and incredibly talents, yet commits some of the most disgustingly vile acts a villain could commit. And from what we know, he seemed to have a good upbringing.

[@artistanthony1007]

​​@@blackchickiedee7My pfp is a true form for X.A.N.A., the main villain from Code Lyoko, you can guess why I picked & kept him for a pfp.

[@redbirdpfpn]

It's funny how EVERY relationship in Hazbin Hotel and Helluva boss is pre-established. Instead of actually developing a ship, they have it already exist and show the backstory and expect it to have the same affect.

[@pastelqueenwudel]

Ah, what about Angel and Husk? You're right with other relationships tho.

[@MistressoftheIceMoon]

I'm not sure what this comment is getting at. I feel (as a writer) that I don't see pre-establisbed relationships ENOUGH in media and that unless it's specifically romance driven, the romance subplot tends to get very annoying very fast. It's fine to establish what happened later on, that doesn't make it ineffective or bad.

[@angel_of_rust]

@@MistressoftheIceMoon when have you ever seen a show drop important lore and character details on separate platforms outside the show? spongebob doesnt; chowder didn't; TAWOG and ATLA don't; TADC probably doesn't. Good stories show, not tell.

[@redbirdpfpn]

​@@MistressoftheIceMoon No, nothing is wrong with it- some of my favourite ships are pre-established. It's just the fact that quite literally every single ship in the universe is pre-established. Also, romance subplots can be incredibly interesting and even the best part of literature if they are well-written. The thing with having everything pre-established is that it lacks the gradual growth of a character's personality and arc.. when they cut right to the chase, it's hard to feel as strong for them or understand their depth, even when they do a few scenes with the "backstories". Side note, but I think it would've been super interesting if they had like some dead couple in hell and then they did the story of their life... but honestly, everything regarding world-building is portrayed nearly the exact same way as it would be if it was set in earth other than subtle details, so they've already dumped out most opportunities.

[@AyatollahVulture]

@@pastelqueenwudel nah dawg that shit fucked up. i thought husk and angel were homies like Shepard and Wrex

[@TheTb2364]

I feel like this series exists primarily as a jump off point for fan art, fanfics and wiki articles, rather than being a story in itself.

[@Dr.AvenVon]

and nsfw artwork

[@blackchickiedee7]

Right, I said that this show comes across as fanfic fodder and the creator just wanted to show her characters just doing SOMETHING as opposed to wanting to tell a story

[@_TheReadyus]

Lmao spot on

[@TheSundayShooter]

@@blackchickiedee7 Turns out the _something_ they're doing is Disney, but with L S V enabled

[@blackchickiedee7]

@@TheSundayShooter LSV...?

[@zeelovesu172]

38:14 this is why the “if _____ was written by Vivziepop” memes exist to begin with.

[@JunKazamaFan]

It's pretty bad when the "Written by Vivziepop" memes are only SLIGHT exaggerations of her actual writing. It seemed like Alastor was an exception to this style... until Episode 5.

[@AbimaelLopez-hz3qq]

@@JunKazamaFannifty doesn’t swear for now and carmilla

[@AbimaelLopez-hz3qq]

@e92312If laughed at the memes that means I like vivziepops humor

[@Corrector1]

@@AbimaelLopez-hz3qq Niffty may not be the best example, because she only gets a few lines of dialogue per episode.

[@redpanda6497]

@@AbimaelLopez-hz3qq But we're not laughing because we find swearing funny, we're laughing because it's accurate and this demonstrates the too much swearing in Helluva/Hazbin perfectly.

[@janjakubiak7441]

Vivienne's Writing is for 14 year old teens who wanna watch 18+ content and feel cool about it.

[@FPSHITareTEMPORARYPUELLAMAGIis]

Basically newgroud

[@SodaFrizz666]

People keep saying it's like she made a show out of self indulgent Tumblr ocs and all that. It's funny you say that too because that's really what the whole show feels like (also, its just hard to take a cast full of furries in hell very seriously)

[@flowerbloom5782]

Thank you.

[@thehorrorarchivers7347]

I could not agree more man remember primal an actual mature show i sure do rememeber but hey since it does not have nice looking characters it deserves to be forgotten.

[@3SCAPER00M13]

@@thehorrorarchivers7347 Primal was awesome. I watch that show very often.

[@rnlansdownemobile]

Vivi's writings in a nutshell: 1. Swearing 2. Swearing 3. Even more swearing 4. ??? 5. Random violence 6. Profit?

[@LegoDrDoom]

You forgot sad backstory sex joke and just everything bad

[@jazzyqueen4980]

And daddy issues

[@androidps1440]

gay sex

[@toplel1860]

You forgot forceful gay characters that throw how gay they are in the audience's face with a hint of the writer's political views tossed in to spice things up .

[@mrslinkydragon9910]

Dick jokes too

[@chrissiemudpuppy1179]

Allegedly Sir Pentious is based on someone Vivziepop hates. Which means Vivziepop accidentally made him the best character

[@KrymsonScale]

Big if true, but he was always the best character to me.

[@redpanda6497]

I haven't heard about it. When did she say that?

[@mesaplayer9636]

And also made him the first resident of hell to go to heaven?

[@poyokirby]

Why would she make someone she hates be the only one that got redemption? I feel like this is a fake rumor.

[@astarteswillum5259]

I feel like Adam was based on someone she knows.

[@VantaDraws]

39:00 They ALMOST had something good with Alastor. They held off swearing for his character until it was at Lucifer, but then they made him swear in every single episode after that.

[@Corrector1]

I don't mind Alastor cussing on rare occasions, but I want it only happen during significant moments. For example, in episode eight they should have had him dropping an F bomb for when he confronts Adam or for when his microphone gets broken, not both.

[@Flameonoodle]

It's a season drop show so that can't be the case ​@glitchon7151

[@Nopeasaurus]

SO TRUE. During his fight with Adam, when his radio is broken and then he says "fuckkkk" without the filter in his voice is the only time he should've cursed in the entire show. That scene would've hit a lot harder if he had never cursed before because then you'd realize oh, he's screwed now.

[@explodinglungs5974]

Haven't watched the show, only the Pilot but I've seen bits of the episodes. I always headcannoned that Alastor was too prim and proper for swearing or "vulgar language", instead using some flowery and witty way of retorting back at his enemies since cussing is too juvenile for a classy guy like him. The scene with Lucifer when Alastor said "Fuck you" to him caught me so off guard lol (not to mention when Al tells Adam that he's going to "Fucking end his life" that one caught me even *more* off guard)

[@hawkeyemihawkgettingmoneylord]

​@glitchon7151well thats literally impossible because the series were made literally a year ago.

[@Jay-gurl]

Sadly, the way Vivzie behaves online with her mash paragraphs to defend her writing, saying we just don't understand or that shes use to people hating her stuff, makes me feel Vivz is too prideful in her writing. A lot of us fans have been saying Vivzie cant take constructive criticism since 2019 and its only gotten worse. If you have to explain your series outside the show itself to explain lore, character personality or the world building, than you as a writer have to be able to admit when you missed the mark AS A WRITER. Not explain how we are wrong for not seeing what you didnt bother to showcase.

[@redpanda6497]

@fuyukiryujin3723 The problem is that the things that need to be told are missing and ones that shouldn't be told is spood fed to us. It's not our fault.

[@nevaehhamilton3493]

The worst part is that there are ass-kissers online trying to defend her saying that "she has a lot on her plate" as an excuse for her inability to handle criticism or even light jokes about her writing choices. You can't excuse poor internet etiquette. They're even on this platform as we speak.

[@Jay-gurl]

@fuyukiryujin3723 It's not impatience to expect a visual media like Hazbin or Helluva Boss to show details rather than explain than on another platform. The rule of "show, don't tell" is as old as writing itself. I'm okay not receiving all the answers to a series. Even some things revealed later through other platforms is okay if it's not important to the series. (Steven Universe for example saying when a character is ace coded or on the spectrum) But key points to a character personality? Their motive? That should be shown in the show and Vivz doesn't do that. She posts on Twitter details like that and that is bad writing.

[@Madjichen]

She hasn't been taking criticism long before the pilot came out. I feel like she never got taught how to receive criticism when she went to SVA. Just constant praise and yes-men especially for having a fan base since her Zoophobia days. I don't hate Vivzie. In fact, I used to be such a fan of her work but the way she's behaved towards people and how she's used her fan base to send harassment to any critics- it's all made me turn off from her work and makes anyone who works professionally in the industry, not want to work with her.

[@nevaehhamilton3493]

@@Madjichen I call her yes men "asskissers", because they essentially deluded themselves into believing she had good intentions, when really, they're just selfish.

[@choccaracco]

does anyone else notice how Charlie is literally the princess of hell yet no one respects her? She'd be on the top of the social chain yet no one respects her, I think it would have been cool to see Charlie struggle with maybe being self centered, and believing everyone should just..listen to her. The show literally brings up how Charlie should use her princess power more and it just..doesn't work? It was a really confusing scene because in all logic- Charlie should be able to just order people around, it feels like she's supposed to be an underdog character but really isn't

[@akirakhiannok1317]

I've read somewhere that claimed Vivziepop said that it's because in hell people don't really respect royalty. Not sure if that was canon or they just use Vivziepop's name though

[@websterston]

Yes! A self centered optimist who is misguided by her own savior/hero complex. The girl who gives herself the responsibility of having to ‘deal with burden of demons’ (poor girl). OR maybe her pre existing optimism gets challenged in season 2 where many instances of hell’s corruption make her colder and colder throughout the series. It’d also be cool to build on a parallel between Alastor and Charlie. Maybe there’s multiple scenes where Charlie judges Alastor for his way of thinking and doing things, only to find out that her methods and thought process are similar to his. (i.e: MAYBE IM THE MONSTAAAAAA) edit: I’ve only watched the Hazbin Pilot (bc im broke) and both seasons of HB. I’m talking out of my ass here, so take it with a grain lol.

[@yurisei6732]

tfw you want the story of a likeable underdog but the aspirational aesthetics of royalty.

[@websterston]

@@yurisei6732 *cough* stolas *cough*

[@Aro9313]

It's Hell. Its denizens aren't exactly known for being respectful.

[@axellycan5070]

So when you get sent to hell, you get a whole new body and possibly superpowers. I really don't understand the theology at play.

[@Corrector1]

I'm hoping that future seasons go into more detail about how demons gain power. They made it a point that Alastor was far more powerful than any mortal soul before him, so I assume that the Overlords aren't instantly powerful as soon as they arrive in Hell.

[@xXxRainCloudxXx]

the way the sinners look is based on how they died however about the powers idk

[@Selfdestructingwii]

​@@xXxRainCloudxXx didn't angel dust or whatever his name is die from an overdose? If so, how the hell (pun intended) is he a spider?

[@xXxRainCloudxXx]

@@Selfdestructingwii his entire family are spiders because they were part of the mob they were known as "venomous" and "poisonous" etc..

[@CrazyLikeUhFox]

@e92312don’t give too much undue credit, it’s much more likely vivzie wanted him to be a spider and then worked backward from that. Lmao

[@TheQipaoMistress]

It pisses me off when ppl say that the story would've been less packed if there was more episodes.... It's still the writers responsibility to write within the given episodes. Another question too, if the team was given more episodes, would they pace it out correctly? Or would they just jam more people and plots in there??

[@ZethTheGoat666]

Fair point. I think more episodes and more calmer pacing as well as less characters would have made the show much better and easier to follow

[@T_E_G]

Right?? 😭 Like have you seen HelluvaBoss?? Literally made by the same creator, FULL EPISODES, and the writing is just as messy And you could honestly do a lot with just eight episodes

[@Cyburim]

>amazon originally gave her 12 episodes and then cut it short to 8 and 2 seasons 😂🎉

[@commentbot9510]

I agree but at the same time 8 episodes hardly provides room for subplots. The show is clearly the type that wants to develop a lot of characters and is character driven. I feel like a lot of substance would be lost trying cut content to fit the plot into the 8 episode limitations. It may be a better story, but not the one the creator wanted to tell.

[@KallaTheYapper347]

​@commentbot9510 But Steven universe manages to do a lot within like 13-15 minutes.

[@Randomdude2003]

Viv can’t accept criticism tbh .. and a lot of people have gave very good criticism

[@gamingmoth4542]

Honestly, she’s also had to put up with a lot of stupid criticism too. There are a lot of people out there who just unconsciously hate her and throw out criticism like “I hate how the gay characters are flamboyant” as well as “I’m going to randomly call Vivzi an AntiSemite and claim Mimzi is a Jewish stereotype” (despite there being LITERALLY no indication that Mimzi is Jewish) and “Vaggie’s name sounds like Vagina”. I’m guessing that with so much stupid criticism built up over the years she tends to be very defensive to any type of criticism. I mean… If you had people making false claims about “things you did wrong” for years, wouldn’t you blow off any claim that “you did something wrong” and just kinda calk it up as “more people making false claims about you”? EDIT: And trust me, I’m NOT saying I think Vivzi’s writing is perfect (I mostly like the show, but there are still a lot of things I do NOT like). I’m just trying to explain why she probably gets defensive about criticism.

[@naganut9718]

I feel like that's built up due to the constant bullshit she goes through

[@dardanbytyqi2742]

There’d lots of criticism to be given to HH,this video has none of it & the more silly lazy critiques a creator receives the less they’ll want to hear it

[@Randomdude2003]

@@gamingmoth4542 nah some of the criticisms but I think it’s just them flat out hating I think she should ignore those

[@gamingmoth4542]

@@Randomdude2003 not “some” of the criticism man. MOST of the criticism is just “I unconditionally hate the show because *insert reason here*”. I think the issue is that it’s a show that has specific tastes. It’s not “bad”, it’s just something that if you don’t like some key features, you’re not gonna like the show. Oddly enough, I think Pyrocynical said it best. The show has Gay People, Angels and Demons, the Color Red, Profanity and Singing. If you hate those things, you’ll hate the show. If you love those things you’ll love the show. If you’re indifferent to those things, you’ll probably like the show (or at least appreciate the show). I like Angels and Demons and the Color Red, I’m indifferent towards singing and gay people and I’m desensitized to profanity so I kinda like the show, but I could understand that it may not be of someone else’s taste. The problem is that for some people it is “not of their taste” and instead of just ignoring it (like any normal person would) they decided to spread a massive hate campaign about how “It’s the worst thing to ever exist” and “anyone who likes it is a horrible person”. And trust me, I’m not one to say that “No shows ever deserve haters” (The Velma Show deserved the all the unconditional hate it got), I just think that Hazbin is not one of those shows. It’s hard to give legitimate criticism for something when a bunch of people who unconditionally hate the show are louder and more obnoxious.

[@scifiwifi_]

Honestly seeing Charlie as Vivziepop's self insert makes a lot of sense. To Vivzie, whether she knows it or not, Charlie is her, so whenever anyone criticises her show and especially Charlie, it feels like an attack.

[@poogissploogis]

True. She even did say she relates most to Charlie (and Vaggie)

[@Jdudec367]

Eh no I doubt it. Like Charlie really isn't her, only similarities are them being bi and having blonde hair. How do you know it feels like an attack to her when that happens?

[@Omegaphoenix128]

The problem that modern cartoons have in regards to immaturity is balance. If everything is sex, violence, and slapstick, it loses its edge from over exposure. Violence (and ultra violence) can be incredibly powerful in demonstrating the brutality of a location or era, but if everything is brutal and not taking with any real downtime, it just becomes violence for the sake of violence and loses its meaning. Same with cursing, sexuality, or any other more adult orientated content. So if VP is comfortable with swearing, thats fine. If she wants it in there, thats fine. But what she isnt picking up on is there has to be a balance. If you go hard on swearing in one scene, you need other scenes to decompress from that.

[@ZealothPL]

Why? I love how all the "media literate" people come in and demand someone follows their arbitrary rules...without providing any actual arguments

[@existence9994]

@@ZealothPL Except they're making a valid point; otherwise people wouldn't be bashing on the series about the excessive swearing with little to no weight behind it

[@YARGGG_GG]

@@ZealothPL it sorta goes without saying. violence, sex, foul language, anything with any kind of intensity needs to be balanced out or it becomes monotonous and you become numb to it. it's why the best horror media still have lightheartedness; it makes the horror pop out more. it's a matter of contrast, if we want to talk about it artistically. rather than trying to invalidate people, you can just say you enjoy the swearing.

[@Da_bear-ij9gm]

If you were literate you’d know the “arbitrary rules” contain the arguments for the critique

[@spacebassist]

@@ZealothPL "arbitrary rules" exist for a reason. we've been making stories for who knows how long, surely somebody would end up noticing what works and what doesn't. if that wasn't the case then everybody would be a writer and all stories would be good (but they aren't) my favourite part of star wars was when they had a lightsaber fight for the entire movie my favourite part of saving private ryan was when all i could hear was machine gun fire and artillery for the whole runtime my favourite part of any story is the climax happening from start to finish. i love stories that don't take a second to breathe and give the viewer a second to take in the story basically, if someone swears all the time, it doesn't matter if they swear during a painful moment. it just doesn't register because their behaviour isn't noticeably different if someone rarely swears, it's a surprise when they finally do, it tells you that they've hit their limit and that can be powerful in a story if someone swears occasionally, that's normal. if they start to swear a lot, they're also at their breaking point

[@emitheorbit1118]

37:59 The funniest part about this tweet is that she wrote it because of a parody, made by a random user, of The Amazing Digital Circus if it was written by the Helluva Boss team, poking fun at the excessive swearing in it. The fumes from her head are so badly hidden.

[@JunKazamaFan]

It will never not crack me up that Vivziepop, a grown woman, got all bent out of shape over "My name is Caine, I am your bitch!"

[@reain]

And she loves this type of humor too(said by herself), why would she get angry at it lmao

[@sandracarnegie2871]

You mean the bullying? What joke? When people poke fun at you all day every day, it's not a joke.

[@reain]

@@sandracarnegie2871 she's not getting bullied bffr thats a grown woman with a choice to not use twitter and not respond lmao

[@sheila19954]

@@sandracarnegie2871 how is someone making a parody of your show bullying? that's only bullying if you view your show as yourself, and that's worrying

[@dianasour69]

Tbh I kinda wanna see Hazbin hotel pop up in the Hotel Hell series where Gordon Ramsey checks out the hotel and changes it. Edit: Thanks for 1k likes!!!

[@RoamingTrend]

That is a great premise! 🤣

[@cakefrosting6451]

Plus points is Gordon Ramsey is known to get very vulgar against supposed professionals who are suppose to know their craft

[@realdragon]

"How the fuck this chicken is raw when this whole place is on fire!"

[@duncanharrell5009]

Gordon: *Holds bread pieces against Charlie* What are you!? Charlie: I’m an idiot sandwich.

[@manboy4720]

so is it just actual gordon ramsay, or is it like a chef demon who went to hell because he was so terrifying?

[@snorpington5910]

What's the point of it being centered in Hell/Heaven? This story could easily be told in like a rundown mafia city with Charlie being the mayors daughter, Vaggie being a runaway rich kid, etc. Hell is portrayed as a city, it doesn't feel like it's a horrible place which I guess is the point, but having civilzations and districts makes it just seem like Earth with red paint. There's no solid reason that they need to be demons and angels. Nemo had to take place underwater because the obstacles don't make sense if they were human. I admire Vivzie for her hard work, but damn she needs to learn to k¡// her darlings when she writes and develops characters, more specifically her Zoophobia OCs, they stick out like sore thumbs and they do not fit in with the cast despite being the same art style.

[@Sr.BulletBill]

Yeah, I remember reading a comment on another video saying that it's easy to forget that characters like Angel Dust or Sir Pentious are dead humans rather than naturally born demons, since their human lives are never mentioned in the series. Hazbin Hotel treats Hell more like a fantasy world than an afterlife.

[@SmileyEmps]

She doesn’t even bother using established character traits from the biblical figures she rips off

[@Micakocho345]

"she needs to learn to kill her darlings when she writes and develops characters" gege: And I took that personally.

[@JordanShipp-w1d]

How does it not feel like a horrible place? Were you not paying attention? People were killing each other, torturing each other, and fighting in the streets constantly in the show.

[@snorpington5910]

@@JordanShipp-w1d Yeah bad things happen in hell, but it's either taken 100% seriously or as a joke. heaven may not have absurd violence, but they won't be accepted by the angels, and could easily be sent back down or hurt. hell just feels like a bad part of town. no one seems like they're suffering for all eternity, it's just earth 2 but red and furry.

[@Noperare]

So the biggest issue is that the show has a truck load of lore, yet, it fails to properly define WHAT is Heaven and Hell. You would imagine that a show centered on the concept of redemption would have those clearly defined. Hazbin Hell is just Los Angeles but everyone is wearing fur suits.

[@duncanharrell5009]

At least Hell gets that. Heaven just has colorful glass everywhere, what look like coffee shops, and… that’s it. Really? This is what Charlie wants sinners to redeem themselves for?

[@krampus7520]

soooo….just Los Angeles?

[@fishyfishyfishy500akabs8]

@@krampus7520they even make this joke in Helluva Boss where Earth is basically just less red Hell

[@justice8718]

@@duncanharrell5009 Heaven is supposed to have a daddy figure for Winners and redeemed Sinners since that is the main point of Heaven, but now he just did the Jesus Christ thing to get Sinners to Heaven, and his character and lore is hidden behind the Season 2 mystery box. You can guess who he is right now. If you picked up the Bible and read about what actions God accepts and his morals, you will be shocked that Heaven doesn't agree with Adam and Lute.

[@D3viant517]

Well I mean…that’s the entire point of the show. Figuring out how to redeem sinners and learning about the hypocrisy of heaven and who they do and don’t allow in. I feel like this criticism comes from people being impatient and wanting all the answers immediately

[@EGV88]

I'm a fan of the cartoon, but we need to bring forth the critical voices.

[@tree2641]

that’s what I’m sayinggggg!!!

[@Casterisks]

Too bad the creator hates criticism.

[@floofycupkim1197]

Lols. Imagine TKO and vaggie meeting 39:20

[@usunposta915]

i feel like its way too hard for a lot of people to admit that they can enjoy an imperfect piece of media. i like the show, the songs are bangers, but it has its flaws that the creator straight up refuses to believe in. like, its okay, but could be better!

[@Nopeasaurus]

@@usunposta915 I feel the same way. It's imperfect but it has its good moments.

[@viennasavage9110]

It does bother me a little that the cannibal lady who's clearly a horrible spouse murdering lady just randomly had the perfect relationship advice about forgiveness and acceptance for Charlie. It really felt like Vizie just speaking directly to her audience.

[@chessecontainment]

Acting all nice and sweet is a common trait in psicopats to give a false sense of security and lure their prey. I wished they explored that concept more with her character, since she's a CANNIBAL. They had the pun right there and they missed it

[@eternallylearning2811]

​@@chessecontainmentThey could have had her fight with Alastor over wanting to eat Charlie

[@anti-fangirlfanclub4776]

Because that's not her character? Bad people can have perfectly healthy relationships, she's the type that's vicious to her enemies and good with her friends. She has no reason to want to harm or make an enemy of the daughter of the ruler of hell, not to mention Charlie's accompanied by a fellow overlord she considers a friend.

[@viennasavage9110]

@@chessecontainment But her words were genuine enough to get through to Charlie, thats the thing... If they conveyed her in an unsettling way that suggested that she was putting Charlie under her thumb, that would be different and compelling. But instead she gets a brief "mom pep talk" moment with her that feels more like she has the personality you'd expect from someone in heaven. It just rubbed me the wrong way, because she openly talks about murder and eating people but buckles down to solve the plot issue about sympathy???? Huh????

[@viennasavage9110]

@@anti-fangirlfanclub4776 The issue isn't that she didn't make enemies with Charlie. It's that her only sensible moment came quick enough to give you whiplash. It's like if Jeffrey Dommer gave a therapy talk to a sexual assault victim and comforted them with perfect advice about mercy and sympathy. It doesn't fit her character at all and what her pre-established behavior is. It invalidates her past dialog because it makes her feel like she's just evil when the creator finds it cool and she's a sweetheart when the creator finds it cool. She doesn't swing with the flow of her own character, but with the plot. Surely you see the hypocrisy in her preaching sympathy when she's a literal murdering cannibal. She had no reason to give Charlie advice there. She was already on good terms with her even without doing so. My point is that the advice she gives is completely out of character and contradictory to what we know about her. It felt like they needed a way to get Charlie out of her funk before the big fight and she was just the nearest character so Vizie spoke through her.

[@Haru-spicy]

a cool plot would have been a "crabs in a bucket" scenario where the truly despicable and unredeemable scumbags of hell band together to prevent other citizens from being redeemed, out of envy/spite against heaven/a desire to bolster their own forces.

[@savage_aquamarine5100]

I used Hazbin Hotel and Helluva Boss as a basis on WHAT NOT TO DO when writing my stories and I ended up learning how to make more deep, understandable storylines that made me realise just how surface level Vivziepop's works were.

[@savage_aquamarine5100]

The main things I learnt were... At the beginning, introduce your main characters and the plot in a natural but noteworthy way. Do not add too many characters, only bring new characters if they are useful to the story. Give characters dynamics and multifaceted personalities, (such as a positive and negative trait.) Give characters backstories that explain how they act, introduce facts about the world building in a natural way. Do not back track a characters development or personality for the sake of plot or a "funny" joke. Do not derail the plot of the series, the series must start calm and simple before slowly becoming more serious and adding bigger ideas. Keep crude or shocking humor to a minimum, so as to add a bigger surprise factor. Everyone action a characters takes must fit their personality and how they'd act. Do not overcomplicate character design, keep them simple while showcasing their personality. (Use colour theory, symbolism and unique fashion styles for better effect) Keep the pacing slow and steady, do not throw big ideas in the first season. And the biggest thing I learnt... SHOW DONT TELL!!! These are all things that Vivziepops works really struggle in the things it does which is why they aren't that good, it's all flashy style over (if not lack of) meaningful substance and has potential to be great but the writing falls flat. But you can enjoy it tho! 😅

[@Jdudec367]

@@savage_aquamarine5100 I agree here ALL good advice! Except well....a series doesn`t HAVE to start light-hearted that is up the creator and what tone they wanna go for. Also I don`t see how Vivzie doesn`t do any of that correctly though, like the writing is bad at times but other times it`s actually pretty good.

[@kanrafingerguns]

​@@Jdudec367I think a better form of this advice is to not put your darkest atmosphere at the start. You can start at any point on the scale, but you don't want to start at the end of it; leave yourself room to progress. And if you do go dark at the start, recognize you are dealing with an audience that isn't invested in the story yet, so you will need to work with that.

[@Jdudec367]

@@kanrafingerguns Well yeah that is true. Hazbin didn`t really do that though, I would say it did get darker as it went om.

[@SpecterVonBaren]

She sees the great beats of writing but she doesn't understand how other writers got there with their own works.

[@Scarlet.Octopi]

Viziepop said the swears were because “it’s just my humor” yeah it’s YOUR humor not ours, also it can deeply affect the characters themselves, them swearing all the time might be uncannon and doing that can hinder the characters traits/personality (I don’t know how to put it into words)

[@kevintanza6968]

I'm a fairly reserved and quiet person, but that doesn't mean that my entire cast should be like that if it doesn't make sense within the story.

[@malavekanimates]

"yeah it’s YOUR humor not ours" that's very entitled. why are you demanding the show be made to cater to you? if the creator of the show and the fans both find it enjoyable/funny, then that's the demographic. no show is universally loved by everyone.

[@Scarlet.Octopi]

@@malavekanimates I like the occasional swearing but when it’s so repeated people are making jokes about it that’s where I don’t like it

[@Scarlet.Octopi]

@@malavekanimates obviously it’s not loved by everyone, I never said it had to be, lots of people just don’t find needless swearing comedy, it can be done well,

[@malavekanimates]

@@Scarlet.Octopi it is done well if it has millions of fans and is doing successful like it is right now.

[@TheAnonyomusGuy]

The entire first season hinges on an idiot plot. SPOILERS The reason the executions are getting moved up, It's because one angel was killed. However, angels can only be killed by their own holy weapons, and the only reason the demons had access to holy weapons is because after each extermination, the angels would just leave whatever holy weapons they used behind instead of collecting them and returning to heaven with them.

[@cakefrosting6451]

I feel that whole part was like, what is that, plot convenience writing, precisely because they could not write a cool narrative of how the demons managed to get their hands on any angelic weaponry… and also another thing I’m thinking is like how lethal is the angelic weapon exactly. It only seems to look amazing but no true delving into how lethal angel power is to a demon of any type. Like just these few questions here. Do they have to wear gloves to handle it? Will having one near you slowly harm the user? Is the angelic power coming from the angel themselves channeled into the weapon of choice, or is the weapon powered with its own “core” element for it to work? And these aren’t all the questions I have just for angelic weapons alone, just a few of them. 🥲

[@politkos5348]

holy shit thats actually really stupid

[@bigchunguskeanureeveswhole1143]

it's part of the suspension of disbelief. Plus, it characterizes the angels as prideful (foreshadowing) and pretty sadistic (they don't know they can be harmed by demons, so they just let them loose to kill each other).

[@politkos5348]

@@bigchunguskeanureeveswhole1143 no its just a really stupid plot point. Even if they dont know the demons can kill them, they SHOULD know that their own weapons can because they (or someone high up) made them. In fact i think they do know that because vaggie gets killed by lute. Theres no way they couldnt think that a demon could just take them and use the weapons against them when the ENTIRE reason for the extermination is to prevent a hell uprising. Considering theyre willing to do genocide to make that happen, they wouldnt want to give demons any chance against them, including the simple act of picking up your weapons and leaving with them. So why the fuck are they leaving their weapons around? This isnt suspension of disbelief, this is a blatant plot hole. Please dont try and justify this with headcanon bullshit or some info from a stream because neither of those are in the story itself.

[@christopherauzenne5023]

Yeah, to add to this/and tredds point of the storytelling going down between the pilot and actual show, it annoyed me they tried making this a major revelation when I assumed that was common knowledge. The pilot showed people taking the angels weapons with I believe an angels corpse nearby, along with vaggie using an angel spear later. So I assumed he’ll had a black market for these holy weapons that people use to gain power along with that the weapons could kill angels/certain strong demons could kill angels it’s just that the angels are so much more powerful that you’d need 50 demons to take one down (so each year hell has a loss rate of 4000 while the angels lose like 4/200)

[@Luatheog]

im sick of of the trope of "angel bad demon good" and the "SaTaN iS tHe GoOd GuY"

[@sonoio869]

Its worse since the demons are still bad but depicted as innocent victims despite them eating each others every day of the week.

[@Dandelions479]

People call traditional tropes awful but fail to realize that subversion IS a trope- and it's not always done right either. In fact, traditional tropes are typically more easy to build off than subversion imo.

[@seaguts7496]

@@sonoio869 Especially with the biblical depictions of them so blatantly wanting pain and suffering among others, so I don't understand how anybody can pick that up and just make them ALL look heroic (ex. legion, or just take any possession story from modern writing like The Exorcist or something from the warren's exorcisms)

[@SmileyEmps]

At this point the characters in the show are just coincidentally named the same as demons and live in a coincidentally similarly named world because they share no relation or character traits with the angels or demons they are meant to represent

[@seaguts7496]

@@SmileyEmps yeah fr 😭 how the fuck is that thing "lord of the flies" when it's just a jelly furry with bee wings

[@mojyoqueen350]

You know who had REAL daddy issues? Zuko from ATLA.

[@durandol]

That's rough, buddy.

[@VideosGalacticos]

And that is a understatement

[@anarchistsworkshop]

Damn right he did. Made his redemption arc super intense.

[@vitoc8454]

Ozai: "I can shoot two lightning bolts at the same time" [Solar Eclipse] Zuko: "I can use two swords at the same time."

[@allorfh2495]

@@vitoc8454 that was such an intense scene.

[@saulgoodman559]

Alastor's mystery, and his deal with Charlie, is going to be so lame. Vivzie already gave everything away--there's no more allure to his character. He's nice and helpful to Charlie? He's actually an evil villain! He wants to betray Charlie and control her! Well, Vivzie already gave away his true personality and motives. We find out about him through other characters--Mimzy especially, who gives away 'oh he's actually a harmless kitten after a few drinks!' Viv likes tweets about how Al needs to do something out of love in order to win a fight, which is why he lost to Adam apparenty lmao. She also mentioned in livestreams she loves 'bad guys who are good at heart'. He's not betraying anyone, that character is just as you said--jangling keys to get the fans' attention. At least Pilot Alastor came across as a real Devil archetype with a hidden motive.

[@DrAngelKins]

Don't mind bad guys being good at heart, but what's bad about them???? Like what should we fear or be scared? It's super odd to make someone scary if they don't display them right.

[@Jdudec367]

How has she given everything away? There is still allure. Well him being evil was meant to be obvious, it`s his true motive and goal that we don`t fully understand yet. Or WHO he is on a contract with. Mimzy is saying that cuz she is friends with him she doesn't know everything about him though. No that isn't why he lost to Adam wdym> Eh....no he may betray Charlie with his personality and everything. Nah he hasdepth too annd is not just key jangling. Pilot Alastor was just as shady.

[@Jdudec367]

@@DrAngelKins His power and backstory and him being a killer who suddenly just killed people and mysteriously got power, him owning souls, etc.

[@blacksesamecandies]

Alastor comes off as a character that is being force-fed by the creators to just be "cool" without really showing much. He sings, he has some creepy faces or random powers but he's just in my opinion, a big mystery box with little substance. He feels created solely to intrigue audiences but just, isn't fun at all to watch. It actually baffles me how many people cling to him when his writing is the most empty of all. Even a side character like Carmilla proved she was more badass and had more motives than Alastor did. I get the whole aspect is "Woooo a mystery!" but he just doesn't have anything going other than that. Vox is far more charming despite having a fraction of the screen time.

[@T_E_G]

​@@DrAngelKins right? Like are they an antagonist? Villain? What makes them evil? Or are they just another background/supporting character?? ;//

[@0aghost0]

vivizie's writing is literally just "its 2013, im 14, just joined tumblr and am now an atheist and also hate god now". im 22, its an adult animation and yet i feel too old for it

[@pemdemica1712]

Why is everything black and white to you? Just because it's a critique on religion, doesn't make it a declaration of hatred to God.

[@spacebassist]

@@pemdemica1712 but they didn't say that. they're saying that the show's complete lack of subtlety about heaven being "not so good" is the level of writing you'd expect from a 14 year old writing their very first story, who's also rebelling against the idea of religion in a juvenile way they also didn't give their own opinion on religion, the comment is a critique of how the show's writing depicts heaven and hell, so that's vivzie's opinion, not 0aghost0's opinion

[@roxi64]

Well and some people enjoy it for this reason I guess? It definitely feels like 2013 tumblr and that is WHY I love it. It gives me feelings of nostalgia and I am sure that many of my friends like the show for the same reason. The show doesn't need to be perfect to be enjoyed!

[@frickcomments]

Nice PFP

[@shushiiiiiiiiii]

​@@roxi64well, definitely it doesn't need to be perfect or even good to be enjoyed, but critics are valid exactly because of that lack of professionalism in writing and such. i say that as someone who hates half of the cast of characters, plot and overall concept (too generic for me), but some stuff do amuse me in the show, like some characters and... two songs yeah I'm not really making a point but what I'm trying to say is that I'm mostly neutral, is just that the show focuses on characters that i despise so i can't really enjoy it + i am scared of finishing it because of the voudou symbols i definitely do not want to be cursed or vomit blood, my life is already a mess and i do not need for daemons to make it worse

[@zuu876]

i find the most funny issue with hellaverse is that there's no reason for it to be even set in hell. like you could easily set in in just any other 'verse' and it would still make no difference. because as a setting, hell doesn't give anything to the show except figures to base characters off of.

[@Sr.BulletBill]

Yeah, I remember reading a comment on another video saying that it's easy to forget that characters like Angel Dust or Sir Pentious are dead humans rather than naturally born demons, since their human lives are never mentioned in the series. Hazbin Hotel treats Hell more like a fantasy world than an afterlife.

[@SmileyEmps]

The characters don’t even share basic character traits with the demons and angels they’re meant to be. Adam is one of 2 original sinners, who should, if anything, be super understanding of the sinners, Lucifer is portrayed as good even though his 2 memorable actions in the bible were torturing Job and trying to tempt Jesus. The writers even went and removed God from the story entirely, having the "elders of heaven" be in charge instead of him.

[@VEGA_173]

doom's hell would laugh its lovecraftian ass off at this shows pathetic excuse of "hell"

[@lazyquahog9385]

@@VEGA_173same with Barlowe’s Inferno

[@leviticusprime4904]

@@lazyquahog9385now I think about why wasn't this show based in the Buddhist interpretation of hell?

[@DiesIrae-yr5wo]

I think Charlie's main daddy issues come from the fact that since her dad was depressed, she lacked support and time spent with him, and overall feels his absence. But... The show doesn't show any of this in a cohesive way, instead turning to lame exposition and refuting it's own narrative.

[@sdhng5441]

You're right, Lucifer's character isn't cohesive within the role he gets in the show. I think this can be attributed to the show's general lack of focus and wanting to do too many things at the same time. It tried to depict Lucifer a distant, neglectful father, a well-meaning but incompetent parent, and a loving dad who would do anything for his daughter... all these within the same character. It's like the writer wanted to showcase all these different interpretations, but this isn't how a coherent plot looks like.

[@DiesIrae-yr5wo]

@@sdhng5441 That sounds right. It's really disappointing that the narrative about Charlie and Lucifer was taken in such a direction considering a lot of people can relate to situations like their's.

[@Corrector1]

@@sdhng5441 Looking at what was said about Lucifer in the pilot, it feels like they changed his personality without changing his relationship to Charlie, so the conflict between them ends up feeling like it doesn't have a clear source.

[@pedropradacarciofi2517]

It does show it in a cohesive way, in fact it shows it without any exposition You just need to have your eyes open while watching

[@thomaslayman9487]

good analysis of the series but, when does charlie chase the beatboxing youtuber guy

[@RoamingTrend]

I think it's between episode 6-7.

[@redpanda6497]

In the finale.

[@blknmongl342]

That part redeemed the show for me.

[@amaze3727]

That happens after the 50 000 $ arc

[@redpanda6497]

@@amaze3727 He had an early cameo disguised as Mimzie. He got the money from the loan sharks.

[@benjaminjara7312]

As a stranger on the internet said once: Hazbin Hotel, the best adult show for children Edit: Que chucha?

[@sandracarnegie2871]

*mature adults

[@boredteenagerinthewild]

​@@sandracarnegie2871 *immature adults and children.

[@realdragon]

@@sandracarnegie2871 *Insert word fuck and sex* Look how mature it is, they say adult words

[@gnome5057]

ive met so many children that love this show

[@Thelisreal-sh3tz]

This is a great line describes most “mature” content nowadays, because clearly the content isn’t being properly filtered from children’s eyes. This also causes quite a bit of content to cater more to children even though they are still creating “adult” content.

[@mikeystorm8124]

Good bible fanfiction - Good Omens Bad bible fanfiction - Hazbin Hotel

[@cotton326]

I totally agree! And, I saw another comment I really agree with. if Hazbin Hotel didn't have the catchy songs and smooth animation, it would've been forgettable. And honestly, I'm WAY more excited for the next season of Good omens than HH.

[@kingsuperbobboy]

Absolutely loved Good Omens, the one thing I disliked was how pollution suddenly became a horseman

[@arinsnead5595]

@@kingsuperbobboy They took over for Pestilence, according to the book.

[@rbfloat]

I was hoping Hazbin Hotel would be better than Helluva Boss, but it has the same problems, yet Hazbin is worse. Viv had this idea for years and worked on it for ten years. So it's so frustrating that after working on this for a decade, this is the best she can do. I'm extremely frustrated with this show because I wanted it to be better than it is. And sadly, I don't think her writing will improve because she cannot take criticism. She gets so angry when anyone gives her constructive criticism, and that is why the show is such a disaster.

[@ChildOfCosmos]

Sadly, I believe the fact that she took so long working on this show is most likely the reason she cannot take criticism well. If you worked on something for so many years, it's obvious that you're going to get pretty defensive when someone points out the faults on such thing. Even if something is bad, people tend to grow fond of it when they invest so much time and effort into it.

[@bribri2925]

Ohmygosh! TEN YEARS? You’re serious?! Can you point me to the development video so I can see how it progressed? (Not being mean, but I’m curious abt creating a series and I myself was willing to take my time bc I saw how ppl criticized fast paced stories and wished they’d take more time to build relationships and rivalry. She had ten years…apparently there’s a problem in taking too much time…) I think she’s a great animator and character designer, but that she should have delegated writing to someone else, professionals (even saying that, professionals cost money. A lot of ppl working on hazbin was working bc of passion. So I understand the conflict there) so that she wasn’t taking SO LONG to teach herself proper writing. Her weaknesses shine through here.

[@pjdixon6199]

Disaster? You are aware of how popular this show is right?

[@politkos5348]

@@pjdixon6199 popularity =/= quality. Otherwise garbage like twilight would be one of the greatest films of all time

[@pjdixon6199]

​@@politkos5348 Whatever helps you cope bro 👍

[@Very_Silly_Individual]

She has unironically inspired me. I mean, if she can make a show, than ANYONE can. Like ANYONE. All she's got is flashy colours

[@sonoio869]

Actually, this show is proof the opposite happens. You MUST sell jangling keys and these sort of concepts to pay back the costs. The writing, the thing that doesn't need a high budget to do is always neglected by the big public, while the animation and voice acting is what calls the fans. Popular Indie animation is on the same level as Hollywood corporate garbage

[@356Krisu]

Most people don't think about the story, but how the show makes them feel. If they feel good while watching it, they dont care if the story is ass.

[@Sr.BulletBill]

@@356Krisu That explains why there are still people who praise and defend Modern SMG4 unironically.

[@angel_of_rust]

@@sonoio869 that's a scorching hot take, considering how the internet as of late has somewhat gaslit itself into automatically equating indie to being inherently good, to an extent.

[@mettawatkutaninwat5411]

@@sonoio869 Same goes for Indie games. I’m so tired of people meatriding indie projects.

[@TheHylianJuggalo]

My favorite observation was a comment that got memed into oblivion: Show is set in hell 0 racists, nazis, or anything a modern politically obsessed person complains about..... But loads, and loads, and loads of gay people. Hmmmm.... 🤔

[@ScabeiathraxUK]

This comment seems to be based on the assumption that only bad people go to hell, which the text of the show explicitly refutes. The decision of who goes to heaven vs hell is outlined in the show as being unknown and seemingly arbitrary. Both heaven and hell contain both good people and murderous maniacs. Anyone who wanted to claim that the show is saying gay people are evil because they're in the show's hell hasn't actually absorbed any of Hazbin's heavy-handed writing, meaning they've probably not actually watched it.

[@TheHylianJuggalo]

If you follow Orthodoxy and Catholicism, which are the original denominations (Catholics specifically), this is not true. In the faith, there exists Purgatory, which is a 'midspace' souls go if they were not properly baptized OR are awaiting judgement for Heaven or Hell. The religion that this show is fundamentally BUILT ON defies that, and I'm not even Catholic.@@ScabeiathraxUK

[@ScabeiathraxUK]

​ @TheHylianJuggalo What religion the show is based on matters less for context here than the literal text of the show. The text of the show very explicitly contradicts the assumption that heaven = good people and hell = bad people. A piece can be about a dogma and also subvert that dogma. The show's writing is, as this video points out, heavy handed. The only way to walk away from the show with a "hell = bad people, therefore gays = bad people" take is to not watch the show.

[@TheHylianJuggalo]

Doesn't matter "What the show is". What matters is staying accurate to what Hell actually is. Doom stays more religiously accurate than this.@@ScabeiathraxUK

[@audreyharris7643]

​@@TheHylianJuggalothis show takes inspiration from religion and use's it in its own way 100% accuracy was never required

[@EscapeReality123]

Hazbin Hotel is a perfect example of why filler episodes are a thing. There was no time at all to get attached to the characters, there is very little of exposition, and everything feels way to fast and chaotic, in the bad way. I am extremely happy that this show is popular, cause it's a huge deal for all indie creators out there, but it really isn't a good show.

[@jarongreen5480]

Honestly it's not a big deal for "all indie creators" It's a stain if anything. This show is a cringy mess and when indie animations are brought up now most people are gonna assume they're all just as bad.

[@tonbunseng6611]

​No it won't because of murder drones, digital circus, lackadaisy etc.

[@yipipayayiii]

​@@jarongreen5480i mean...till now indie shows have proven that they're ANYTHING but good it's so sad that all of the good indie shows are underrated or overlooked by pure brainrot and quirky shows

[@Jdudec367]

@@jarongreen5480 It is a big deal and it isn't a stain at all. It isn't a cringey mess. Except Hazin isn't even bad really.

[@Jdudec367]

I mean there is time to get attached to the characters but there should be more time really, and we saw enough exposition too, eh no not everything feels way too fast and chaotic some stuff is like that but not all of it. Eh nah it is good really.

[@TheApoke]

Wow I feel like this was a really good critique! One thing I'd change about the show, is in the final episode when Alastor battles Adam. Alastor says "I'm going to end your fucking life" it felt out of character. I wish he said something like "I'm going to make you the star of my next broadcast" it would make the lines more subtle and classy

[@avivastudios2311]

Nice. It's like we understand the characters better than Viv.

[@phatcarno8332]

Viv seems to think that cursing is threatening when it just seems jovial and childish. What you wrote has actual thought put into it and evokes emotion because of what it implies but nope cursing is way better!!1! Lets go cursing!!

[@blackchickiedee7]

It's why I feel Alastor is just a try hard edge lord in a suit as opposed to a radio host from the twentieth century. He acts like everyone else and most of his dialog doesn't fit from the time period he's from

[@chatdonut]

​@@blackchickiedee7 yeah I wish he was a more subtle, classy gentleman, it would contrast with his horrific actions. (we can keep the sarcasm but tone it down a little)

[@QueenofTNT]

An idea I remember having while watching the memes about how much the characters swearing is to have Alastor swear, but only very infrequently and it’s almost always bleeped out or censored in some way, sort of reflecting the older communications standards of the era he’s supposed to be from. Then the one time you do let him swear uncensored, it’s during a moment shit is hitting the fan, which would really, REALLY drive home the impact of the scene itself. A swear becomes a thousand times more funny/impactful if it’s used sparingly or for a character it could be considered OOC for. The opposite way also holds, a character that swears a lot in casual conversation dropping the crass language and speaking perfectly with an unnervingly calm tone is a great way of communicating that this character is going to do something big (from anger, sadness, grief, etc) but Vivzie’s characters just...always swear. All the fucking time. There’s no reprieve or importance in it. It’s just a waste of a storytelling medium you COULD be using to communicate information about your character’s personalities.

[@eternallylearning2811]

I kinda view alastor as an OP idiot whos very good at convincing people including himself hes not an absolute mess

[@leritykay8911]

Same, and that's my favourite part about him

[@TruxySSJ]

I love how Gojo can also be summed up like that, yet he somehow feels more natural and believable than Alastor

[@frankkennedy6388]

How exactly is Alastor an idiot?

[@bigchunguskeanureeveswhole1143]

@@frankkennedy6388he's extremely egotistical and beefs with people above him

[@ritaerror7829]

The thing is, he could've been made better... Blackhat is great example. Alastor is... fine? Just a walking overpowered mystery, so he scores gore/epic points and people will stay invested.

[@Poached_Teeth]

I love how having many writers is a common occurrence in bad shows. You know who also has too many writers? High Guardian Spice.

[@bongus840]

It all connects

[@papkinn]

I mean have you ever been in a group project at school? It's either one person doing all the work without needed feedback from others or a complete chaos with everyone arguing, that's basically what happens when there's 10 writers on a project too.

[@Acidburn1155]

It's almost like there can be too many writers, oh but don't worry, the WGA only demanded between 6-12 writers minimum as part of their conditions for ending the strike... So prepare for a lot more bad shows made by too many people who don't even need to be there. Surely the extra cost of those useless employees won't matter to production? Ah who cares tho, I'ma just be sityting here singing my song. "Too many cooks will spoil the broth!"

[@Acidburn1155]

@@papkinn Can't wait for the WGA's minimum of 6-12 writers per show eh? I kNoW i sUrE cAnT!

[@alex_zetsu]

Well it didn't help most of the HGS writers were bad writers. more money could turn garbage into pretty animated garbage which is worth at least something. More seriously, some shows actually just rewrite whole episodes and fire writers. This is sometimes even done after episodes have been animated and therefore paid for. At least 7 shows I know of did this to their first 3 "original" unaired episodes. So maybe this show could be fixed by nuking its original episodes, hiring new staff, and then making something different which would not be cheap. If at least 3 episodes were already animated and I saw this dumpster fire as a producer, I'd be seriously tempted to do just that, but I also understand the argument of "well, it sucks, let's just air is anyways and we know people will hate it but maybe we can get enough pollical correctness police fans to break even"

[@sopapiglobo]

For what I know Viv prefer to work with bootlickers instead of actual good writers, that's why she got in this whole mess.

[@lordkosta926]

as an aspiring writer, THANK YOU this was a great analysis. You didn't only point out the flaws, but gave additional examples from other media AND offered ways on how to improve on the issues. This was definitely worth the watch.

[@RoamingTrend]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@poogissploogis]

I abandoned a writing project years ago but even just watching this video I was taking in all the different ways I could've improved it! Vivienne needs to approach things from a more constructive criticism approach rather than thinking everyone's just a hater.

[@Rohtix]

It feels like Viv has so many ideas and she's so excited to get them out, but has almost no patience to do so. It feels kinda like fan fiction writing.

[@SmileyEmps]

It basically is, she just took the setting and characters off Christian folklore, threw out all previous characterization they had, made them shitty redesigns, and inserted her own OCs

[@sourcefreak7997]

I saw fanfics with better writing, HH/HB included.

[@lexwhy554]

You can tell this is a universe thats been in the making since the author was a teen, a lot of elements seem to be kept or included just for sentimental reasons. I have recently been rewriting a story I first vomited out at age 15 and it's really hard but nessecary to cut things that just don't make sense anymore. Very clearly teenage chararer designs, immature and directionless dialouge, making sure the story is about something not just a tech demo for a beloved fictional world. Seeing Hazbin Hotel is a reminder that these ruthless decisions are nessecary, and if you don't make them everyone can tell. I liked the show, some of it landed for me, some of it missed, it will forever be an achievement for independent animation, but I can't stop thinking about how it feels 2 rewrites away from what it should have been. And I feel like nobody who wasn't neck deep in the lore and knowing all the characters inside out went over the script to point out how it looks like from the outsider's persepctive.

[@Morgan_Crow]

As a teenager myself (who is currently writting a story I created two years ago) thank you, I really need to NOT fall for this thing (keeping stuff only ‘cause you’re emotional about it) I changed the complete lore of my story yet keeping a more canonicall version of my og characters that now fit the new lore ect… So thanks to point that out! 😌

[@elisabetlagato1520]

That is such a good point, I remember trying to rewrite a story I made in middle school and it’s very uncomfortable! It feels like a betrayal of your little dudes, but it’s so necessary.

[@anonymousapproximation8549]

Honestly, I just think of it as an AU fanfic. Similar to a previous work, but remixed to better explore the characters/setting.

[@yaphetgreen0222]

you can really tell that no one ever told her the sacred advice "kill your darlings"

[@Sorain1]

@@Morgan_Crow Best advice I can give on that feeling is to archive the old and maybe write a little reflective peice on why you changed it and how. It'll help remind you of why this needs to happen and be a great insight for others later on as to where things came from and how they changed.

[@bettygrof.]

helluva and hazbin both confuse me. what is their demographic supposed to be? they're "for adults" but are so bad that no one who's an adult watches them, leading to their one collective fandom being just a bunch of edgy 11-12 year olds who think any valid criticism the show gets is hate

[@pjdixon6199]

Plenty of adults watch both shows you doofus

[@androidps1440]

​@@pjdixon6199 riiiiight...

[@Longknife]

Weird choice to include Bojack in the montage of "shows relying on swearsies as comedy." It very specifically has one F-word per season to try and maintain the seriousness of it's usage, and I don't believe it's ever dropped in a comedy scene.

[@larsen_draws8430]

I found the arguments of BoJack having bad writing really dumb. I feel like BoJack is incredibly well written and really subverts your expectations of typical adult animation. It also does a great job of showing character development and that everyone has flaws.

[@vlc-cosplayer]

@@larsen_draws8430 the dramatic parts are well written, but the comedic parts were generally pretty cringe...

[@anarchistsworkshop]

Agree. Unless I'm grossly misremembering, Bojack was really light on the "high school" immature humor, and the whimsical humor that was there served a purpose contrasting the really damn dark tone.

[@anarchistsworkshop]

@@vlc-cosplayer cringe how? IIRC a lot of the comedic parts were supposed to be laughing at one of the characters rather than with them, so some level of cringe is necessary.

[@czwarty7878]

@@larsen_draws8430 "I feel like BoJack is incredibly well written" you have very low expectations for writing in shows then. Like, it's okay if you enjoyed it, good for you and I'm not even sarcastic here; but saying it's "incredibly" well written is kinda ridiculous. He explained in video what he means by that, and he's right - the level of exposition in these shows is unreal, it's like the writers aim at high schoolers and think character traits, plot points and stuff will fly over their heads if they don't explicitly state what they mean and repeat it 3+ times for good measure, just in case borderline-mentally challenged viewer still doesn't get it. It's honestly demeaning to intelligent viewer, it's like someone explaining a joke to you.

[@cuponoodles8507]

I think HH is a show for children and adults who act like children disguised as an "Adult" show with violence, sex, and swearing, and even that stuff is so present in the show it feels like it was made for kids too, like baby's first Adult Cartoon. The writers feel like kids who just watched Family Guy for the first time and began experimenting with the word "fuck."

[@poogissploogis]

Yes exactly! I tried going to a social group for a specific craft that I do and for whatever reason this craft is just overrun by big fat white millennial moms who think that swearing and making genital plushies is edgy and cool. After talking for a while, one of them said they loved Hazbin Hotel and I was immediately like "yep, there it is".

[@ethanlivemere1162]

This is the most basic and common criticism for this show, it's been said thousands of times before. And yet, I really don't find the sex, violence and swearing as over the top as these comments always claim it is.

[@Jdudec367]

@@ethanlivemere1162 exactly it honestly isn't even that true tbh

[@Justmyselfyt]

As a fan of the show all of these sins felt really nice in some videos people were basicaly just yelling"THE SHOW IS BAD" for 10 minutzes this was pretty good and felt good to hear. As someone who has an idea of a show this really helped, and it gave somehow a reallity check on my own ideas. Now I just want to rewritte Hazbin Hotel

[@RoamingTrend]

Do it. It would be a good exercise. Re-writing shows or using the same world can help understand what research one needs to do whenever you write any story.

[@gelibrva472]

​@RoamingTrend I work with new writer and my number 1 rule is research research and more research

[@EllaBArt-zp1wn]

​@@gelibrva472saaame. I spent almost 2 years of research for mystory so could give my characters a good character design. Give rules of the world building and focusing on just one consistent theme

[@christopherbravo1813]

I kinda want to rewrite the show as well. Of course, one stumbling block is that I keep coming up with a myriad of conflicting ideas regarding how to do so.

[@acetrigger1337]

The problem with bad writing is that writers only write what they know, and since most consume a lot of bad media... it leads them to replicate it, cause that is what they consider it "good". it is very much a "Industry Problem".

[@riotkitty]

Ten writers on the writing team is more often than not a red flag for a show being written badly, too many cooks in the kitchen wanting to do their own thing & as such, the direction is aimless. Also you get issues like characters repeating information that was already told, because different writers want to convey the same information in the scenes they write.

[@immediateegret2120]

This was exactly my thought and I was surprised the video didn't home in on it more. Seeing ten writers didn't make me wonder 'how could the writing still be bad' it made me think 'of course the writing was a mess!' Literal design by committee, exacerbated by a creator who (from what I glean from this video, I have no prior knowledge of VivziePop) hasn't learned to accept and utilize constructive criticism.

[@Hepheat75]

As a writer who's currently writing a huge story with another writer, having ten people on the writing team sounds like a nightmare.

[@NeyamStar]

Yea yikes

[@tonbunseng6611]

if you were to pick your writer who would you want to be in your group?

[@TheMedicatedArtist]

Sin 5 - Viv watched Panty and Stocking and saw that the Angels were assholes and loved it. Then she thought the demons being strict rule followers was lame and kept them as asshole too. Viv knew modern audiences were media illiterate, so she made the characters we’re supposed to root for nice/kind-hearted cinnamon rolls while everyone else was made as irredeemable as humanly possible (even though the show spouted that *anyone* could be redeemed (including grapists and MAPs)). Is any of this true? Probably not, but if her fans can head canon in order to enjoy this show, then so will I. I’ve followed this series too long to get off the ride, so I’ll use any method I can to get something positive out of the experience.

[@lukacunty]

Istg if by the end of the series Charlie doesn’t learn that not all sinners can be redeemed I will lose my shit. Also don’t use the term MAP. It gives pedos validation.

[@nostalgiclly8241]

definitely dont use the term MAP.... we arent allowing pedophiles that label to hide behind. they are pedophiles and that is all. dont use MAP like ever its not a thing

[@applesandgrapesfordinner4626]

> Pedos > Calls them "MAPs" Don't do that.

[@sdhng5441]

I get the feeling that Vivienne knows absolutely nothing about Christianity (apart from very surface level things like the name of some of the biblical figures) and doesn't care to learn more about the topic either. The same goes for psychology, she'd probably read some pop-psychology articles about cool-sounding mental illnesses and called it a day. Which is fine in itself, not everyone has to be an expert in theology or mental issues. But she bites more than she can chew in every aspect of the show. Hazbin Hotel tries to tackle so many themes at once that she fails to do any of them properly. Religion, genocide, rebellion, war, redemption, slavery, human trafficking, r*pe, abuse, familial issues, relationship issues ... and the list goes on, but non of the themes or subplots are particularly well-written, because the show drags the audience from one thing to other before any of them could sink in properly. It's such a shame because I found the setting and main characters interesting, but the more I've seen about it, the more it felt like Vivienne got a platform to showcase her tumblr OCs without having to put any further thought into it.

[@runawaykiwibird7461]

​@@lukacunty I agree with your point about not calling pedos MAPs, but I think it has something to do with YT deleting comments that mentioned words like those.

[@maravreloaded]

Also. Can we talk about how the show wants to redeem serial killers or gang members with "TRUST EXERCISES" or "SAYING I'M SORRY" You see the level of maturity Vivziemind has.

[@jojomania1105]

When a Tumblr user writes a Tumblr story and it becomes an actual show, you know it will be arse

[@Arkantolas]

GOD THAT DESCRIBES IT PERFECTLY IT'S A TUMBLR SHOW

[@tundra4331]

God, I've had to block so many hazbin hotel tags on Tumblr so I won't see this slop that I can't even deny it, Tumblr loves this crap

[@Pinka13]

​@@tundra4331"How dare people enjoy things I don't like!"

[@tundra4331]

@@Pinka13 ? Dude I block the tags. I don't even block the people posting it or hate to them. I'm allowed to complain about the badly written and really bad art show being on my timeline.

[@genericbro2440]

​@@Pinka13 That person is literally talking about how they blocked the tag so they wouldn't engage with it are you fucking blind

[@boredteenagerinthewild]

I am currently still watching. I'll be honest here,the voodoo stuff on Alastor seems completely useless in my opinion,like were they there just to make Alastor seem more threatening? Really? They could've just use Radio Symbols since,yk,he literally nicknames himself as the RADIO DEMON.

[@Corrector1]

I have a theory that he's backed by a loa, and voodoo is why he was so powerful when he first arrived in Hell. But who knows when we'll get the full explanation of where Alastor's power came from.

[@novonicfrotabarboza6810]

It's just a random and superficial mixed idea of Robert Johnson, blues and african american voodoo put in a random, vague and superficial character: Alastor.

[@crusaderpr7683]

i also think of an 8 sin that is "not studying on how to write a story" because most of the stories flaws can be fix by reading the rules of basic writing specially when it comes to character personality like the reason angel dust was accuse of been "a gay for straight women" is because he was written the way some women fetishes gay people ,which this is = to men fetishizing lesbians, and that is why he feels unrealistic but again all could have been avoid by just learning the basics of writing

[@WeebGuru6]

Angel is a writers baby man I wouldn’t be surprised most male viewers don’t like angel cuz I certainly don’t and viz doesn’t know how to write an abuse character and it shows with angel and moxxie

[@VantaDraws]

How should they write Angel better?

[@WeebGuru6]

@@VantaDraws I would write him less sexual and less sex joke cuz it ain’t funny and makes him kind of annoying would also make him straight but he became gay cuz of Valentino abuse also make him paranoid of people touching him especially from behind

[@michace]

‼️LONG RANT INCOMING‼️ TLDR; vivzie can’t handle gay characters/relationships. I think people are too quick to dismiss this certain criticism. It seems throughout Vivzie’s work she isn’t capable of writing healthy or realistic MLM gay relationships/characters. I won’t jump to conclusions on what kind of person Vivzie is, but I’d like to just point out a pattern that I’ve seen in her work. There’s nothing wrong with gay male characters being salacious/sex workers/abusive, but when ALL your notable male gay characters are that way, it’s pretty telling. Angel and Valentino in a classic pimp scenario being obvious, creating sympathy for Angel through common stereotypes of sex workers being taken advantage of, but the show also jokes about Angel “sexually harassing” people and it’s never properly addressed. Neither is his drug addiction. That’s not even mentioning Stolas and Blitz in HB, which are a whole mess. They’re both introduced as creepy, sexual predators. Stolas harasses Blitz, especially in the pilot, and holds the grimoire over his head to get him to sleep with him. Blitz constantly harasses Moxxie and the show makes a joke out of him trying to get into a threesome with M&M. And before anyone brings up Stella, the only reason that conflict occurred in their marriage was because Stolas was sleeping around with imps. I’d argue that the relationship between Stolas and Blitz itself is nonsensical and should’ve never been forced in the first place. They’re both incredibly broken individuals and Vivzie can’t handle this subject with maturity and care. Compare that to relationships with women in them like Millie and Moxxie or Charlie and Vaggie and there is a huge difference. Those relationships are allowed to be loving, healthy, and not constantly talking about sex. They’re capable of being their own people and talking through issues together. EDIT, ADDING ON: Moxxie has his issues, sure, but he’s also the only queer male character who’s allowed a loving relationship, with a woman. He’s also notably less traumatized and hopeless than other male characters. Chaz, Moxxie/Millie’s ex, does nothing to divert this pattern, also being an incredibly sexual, conniving harassing asshole who abandons Moxxie. I’d also like to note that in Vivzie’s Zoophobia comic, an early version of Alastor was meant to stalk and torment an openly gay character of hers, Autumn, a 17 year old boy. To reiterate, I don’t think any of this is horrible on its own, but concerning when you put it all together, and I’m not the first to say this either. It may just be indicative of a larger problem with her writing, that she tends to project her own problems/trauma on those characters (which she openly admitted to with Angel), and that she isn’t interested in writing characters that are deeper than tropes and stereotypes. This may just be me, but it’s clear that MLM relationships/characters are not treated with the same dignity.

[@WeebGuru6]

@@michace I agree 💯 this is why I don’t like angel dust cuz I can tell she’s trying to do it for sympathy and Charlie x vaggie and moxxie x Millie are no better my guy she just can’t write romance angel dust is supposed to be like Mikey from shameless but ended up like gay quagmire

[@GoonManGuy]

Hazbin Hotel and Helluva Boss feel the same way to me that bad mascot horror does. A bunch of funky designs in a neat looking and sounding setting strung together with the weakest through line manageable for the main goal of being bait; carving out a cultural niche through the potential of being interesting. The audience can take the cool looking characters and the allusion to a more intricate world and run with it, making their own media that expands on what they think the characters and settings are like. It doesn't even matter what the show is or where it goes, at that point. It's all just window dressing.

[@SpoopySquid]

Wow, that actually sounds like a pretty solid summary of Viv's career

[@spac3st0rm]

I'm glad you acknowledged that Hazbin Hotel isn't the only adult show with these writing problems, that's been my biggest issue with critics. My second biggest one being how they'll give alternative writing prompts to fix things but cater it to themself instead of adhering to the creator's vision. Speaking of the creator, Vivziepop has been a huge inspiration to me as an aspiring animator. Writing is merely a hobby for me but I still want to improve, catching Viv’s writing mistakes has helped me catch my own. Amateurs are often told to solely look at experts for how to improve one's craft, but *only* listening to experts can be intimidating and discouraging. When she makes a writing mistake, I have the opportunity to investigate *why* it's wrong, why the fundamentals are important. The advice experts give is often lost in translation because they forget not everyone has the same level of knowledge. But Viv's mistakes are so blatant that I can't helped but me inspired to pick up where she left off. She may not want to improve but I do. Rewriting her works has done more to improve my own skills than most expert advice honestly.

[@RoamingTrend]

I'm glad to hear it. I think she is great animator, but that doesn't instantly make one a great writer or director. Even storytelling experts and critics don't often write good stories. I've seen a ton of examples of youtubers who critique writing and the make the same mistakes when publishing their writing. It's a craft that takes a lot of effort to handle. But one still has to praise vivzie for having the determination to get her story made, warts and all and if she continues, I hope she will hone in on the craft more.

[@commentbot9510]

I agree. Viv is an expert of animation and character design in my eyes, so its nice to see that someone successful can still have flaws like writing to improve upon. Its kind of motivating in a way. Also, like you said, seeing where she went wrong does help you to avoid making the same mistakes.

[@DEVil-po5xz]

if you love something you'll want to improve it. people shitting on the show by making valid criticisms without bringing up other shows isn't them hating on the show. it's them wishing that this show would have been different. Also it's hard to say if Viv even had a fucking vision with this show since most of the story is just the blended hat.

[@avivastudios2311]

A lot of people are having fun rewriting her story. I couldn't imagine being that invested in something this bad but if you enjoy it then you enjoy it I guess. I'm currently working on an urban fantasy where 20% of the population has super powers. The MC Gus has to fight off a bunch of villains with powers. It's really cool.

[@avivastudios2311]

​@@DEVil-po5xz You can tell that it went through a lot of rewrites. The war between heaven and hell was not a concept in the pilot. You can tell cause in the pilot heaven was exterminating sinners because of overpopulation and not control.

[@pewnie-piece-of-piffcorn]

so heaven has biblically accurate angels but hell has nothing but gay people

[@BenjaminPena-kz3hf]

accurate?...

[@thegrimharvest]

What did Viz mean by this? That's an interesting unintentional oof.

[@spinosaurusstriker]

Accurate?

[@mayor_theo]

At least they got that last one accurate

[@ultimaxkom8728]

@thegrimharvest Lmao. I just realized the big oof.

[@tokyo_taxi7835]

The best way to instantly improve the writing is to take Vivziepop off of the writing team.

[@artistanthony1007]

Episode 1 just proves this should've been done, she wrote the dang episode.

[@SwfanredLotr]

Vivzi stans: Lol. Why are Tim Pool and these right-wing christians making all this satanic panic. Its just a harmless show about redeeming souls into Heaven. Also Vivzi stans: Actually, characters like Sera, Adam and Lute are perfect metaphors of Le Catholics and their privileges. 🤓

[@Wonton-the-Sea-Snail]

I think the issue about the set up is because Vivzie has been working on these characters for a VERY long time. She has these in-depth charater backgrounds like how they died and what time -period theyre from, but forgot how to introduce these to an audience that has never seen these before.

[@cakefrosting6451]

10:01 The pilot wants you to not like Lucifer for the potential harm he caused on his daughter by not being confident in her execution of her plan. The actual show makes you try to not like Lucifer and then go, “omg he has depression forgive him for causing daddy issues to Charlie” I wonder what other dad character suffers the same type of writing of “oh no I caused my daughter issues but I have issues too now audience is sad about me”

[@nevaehhamilton3493]

I think it's because Vivziepop had a pretty great childhood and thus would never be able to understand daddy issues first hand. Meanwhile, I've heard stories from my mom about how she was neglected and implied to be abused in her youth, and I even butt heads with my own parents, so I can tell you a thing or two about daddy issues.

[@cakefrosting6451]

@@nevaehhamilton3493 same here, I am wrangling with a problematic father myself that is pretty much the result of generational trauma, but daddy issues can really manifest in a few ways and Charlie’s one, resolved almost too quickly, is more like a minor misunderstanding over one subject, than a daddy issue🥲 Especially in how it’s shown to the audience.

[@redpanda6497]

@@nevaehhamilton3493 Judging by the way she talks ( she seems like an emotionally immature person to me ) and that none of her characters are healthly, I don't think so. She can't write abusive and villainous characters, which is why I don't think she have abusive parents ( at least that's my opinion ) but for me it seems like at very least she had messy, immature, maybe even neglectful, parents, specifically her father. I don't know what to think of her mother. All of the mother characters are idealized, but missing. Maybe that would explain why she can't write female characters. Did I just analyze someone based on their cartoon? Yeah, sorry if I went throught a personal limit. I really don't want to offend anyone with it.

[@lorddevilfish5868]

I like Hazbin, but I was very disappointed with Lucifer. A problem I have with both Helluva Boss and Hazbin is that they establish a lot of parallels to authoritarianism, corruption, late stage capitalism, but a lot of the people at the top are treated more like celebrities and often mid tempered ones and not actual political leaders. I don’t mind it occasionally (I like Carmilla and Asmodeus especially since they’re in a state where they’re loosing influence to more harmful ones) but the fact that Beelzebub and Lucifer both preside over a political system that has slavery, racial segregation, and other forms of exploitation, they seem way too cheerful and accepting.

[@nevaehhamilton3493]

@@lorddevilfish5868 almost as though she's tryna have her cake and eat it too, not caring about the long term consequences of the results of her fruits of her supposed labor, because her mind is so corrupted by the idea of wanting clout for her work as a result of being chronically online that she's essentially fighting tooth and nail to maintain that reputation above all else, when it really should have been about the creativity, and not the fame that comes with it.

[@NolsHub]

That's also why I liked the news reporters in the pilot. Even though they give exposition bluntly and in a way that would seem bad, since it's literally their job to provide exposition as a news team it actually works as it doesn't feel unnatural. It also wasn't done in a trope-ish way where a TV is left on and the characters just overhear the news, at the time Charlie was at the news station to talk about her hotel. The news coming in literally interrupts the main character, instead of distracting, so the main character has to listen despite already knowing what it is - and despite already knowing what it is about, the news involves the main character's client that she was just claiming was trying to be good, so despite already knowing about the feuds that were happening she still has a motive to be engaged with the story.

[@NeyamStar]

Yea that was good

[@tankbwoy]

Art is subjective and to each their own, but man do i viscerally hate those overdesigned, underwritten, 12 year olds idea of edgy ass characters. The first episode is what feels like a dozen visually noisy sonic OCs all trying to be the main character while everything else falls flat.

[@gem9535]

I genuinely think that all the exposition is a result of three things: 1) Vivzie trying to appeal to her younger audience (since a lot of her audience is comprised of young teens, which is kinda... messed up considering the content of the show. I'm not an idiot and think that teenagers should be shielded from anything adult, but purposefully catering to children with your adult show is weird af. It's also a double-edged sword since it ostracizes your primary audience, adults). While not even kids show should hold the audience's hand, there IS more exposition there for ease of watching. 2) They're trying to make up for the fact that much of the little things have been told in livestreams, posts, Q&As, etc. They're trying to shove all the relevant lore as quickly as possible, while relying on older fans to spell out the rest in reviews and deep dives. This is both lazy while also giving the writers unnecessary work, which is an interesting combo. There's no subtlety because Vivzie couldn't keep her mouth shut and let the viewers discover the world and characters naturally, via the show, and kept info-dumping online, which the writers have to work around and with. The writers have to try to deliver a world as complicated and deep as the one Vivzie painted, while also delivering something new to keep both old and new viewers interested. 3) People getting stupider as a whole, and hear me out on this. There are whole videos talking about how people are taking everything at surface value nowadays, not sparing a SECOND to dig and discuss about what intricacies lie underneath. Since this has caused a lot of shows to be dragged on social media platforms, hurting the show's entire team, it follows that modern shows are taking care to spell out every little thing to try and avoid controversy--which STILL doesn't work. Think about the controversy of the song, Poison, for example. This is doubly true for this show, since it handles dark and already controversy subject matter.

[@FPSHITareTEMPORARYPUELLAMAGIis]

Point 3 is why I’m so scared to try doing anything.

[@mkm1349]

Wheneve i see a scene where a character who isnt a villain or antagonist does something bad and the writer doesn't fret over casting a bad light or striking karma lightning in the matter of 5 minutes i feel my brain tickling

[@kevintanza6968]

@@mkm1349Berserk when Godo calls Guts, the protagonist, out after he has been giving in to vengeance and hatred. That makes it work.

[@kevintanza6968]

Point 3 can be divisive. I have seen a lot of people who don't analyze and a lot of people who overanalyze every stupid detail.

[@ScabeiathraxUK]

People have been saying "people are getting stupider" [sic] for as long as recorded history and it's no more true now than it was then. You are comparing unfiltered live reactions to older reactions that have been filtered by time. Time sands away the most uninteresting takes, leaving behind the incisive or controversial. The "smarter" period of history you're referring to is a rose-tinted fiction.

[@Perdix64]

They already have **10** commandments and **7** deadly sins to make the rules.

[@duncanharrell5009]

Yes but then that would force them to *GASP* actually work with rules that might be uncomfortable to “modern audiences”!

[@cesar6447]

and the 7 cardinal virtues

[@Perdix64]

@@cesar6447 seriously, they could’ve done this and just made the angels either follow it to a T or make it so that not even Adam, the original human, not even able to make it into heaven and the Adam we see is Adam Caedmon.

[@cesar6447]

@@Perdix64 yeah, like adam and eve are literallythe first sinners and the ones who made their descendants able to sin, why are they in heaven?

[@Perdix64]

@@cesar6447 it’s a familiar face to people

[@LivLuvConditions]

What bothered me that in the last episode they made it a big deal that Alastor was "gone" just for him to immediately appear back perfectly fine. I mean, the Vees sang about how hell can belong to them now because Alastor has "died." And its not like theres tension between who would win (Alastor vs. Vees). I mean, in Vox and Alastor's whole song, it displays Vox as just this unhinged guy while Alastor actually seems to have power of some sort, which is why Vox wanted to team with him in the first place (at least thats what I got). I feel Alastor should've stayed "dead" until some point in the next season where the Vees just almost get the upperhand of hell, making his "death" and comeback having more of an impact. I feel he only came back so quickly (like LITERALLY in a blink of an eye) because he's the big fan favorite.

[@harleyjune]

Agreed 100%. Alastor "Should have stayed gone" and disappeared for a while, his defeat and subsequent destruction of his cane was entirely pointless it seems as he comes back like nothing happened and this patron of his has probably already been figured out by viewers, any edge he had in the pilot is gone thanks to Mimzy's lore drop. The pilot never told us what he did, only that he was "broadcasting carnage" which sounds far better than making them scream on air. They showed their hand too early with his character and all the cards sucked.

[@Corrector1]

I did find that odd. The Vees part in the song felt like it was setting them up to be more active antagonists in the next season. But then Alastor reveals to the other characters that he's alive, so the power vacuum that they were singing about doesn't actually exist.

[@WhatTheScallœp]

They couldve kept his solo in the finale but not made him return to the main cast in season 2, it wouldve made way more sense. End on both the Vees and Alastor seperately singing about how they'll be the ones to have power ("the future of hell belongs to the vees/guess who will be pulling all the strings") and then have THE TWO OBVIOUS BIG BADS fight for power in season 2.

[@Meuduso1]

"kill your darlings" works for a reason, right?

[@ReconnectTC]

So glad someone pointed this out. On my first watch, I literally MISSED the part where Alastor popped back up, and I was so confused when he randomly appeared with the rest of the cast. I thought it was a mistake. I only realized after rewatching the scene that he actually did just reappear out of nowhere with almost no reaction from the cast, in the middle of a song no less. Goes to show how much of an afterthought it was I guess.

[@tarniabook3076]

Okay, but imagine if Charlie actually had daddy issues and she still tried to ask her father for help. Now imagine he is a horrible person, emotionally destroys her right on the hotel floor, and you know that confrontation Lucifer and Alastor have? Now Alastor has a very good reason to step in.

[@TOMNICE]

There is also another way to depict Lucifer as a really evil character, but still has a soft spot for his family in some way. I like to see villains who try to be good parents.

[@Phantasmagora]

As much as I adore Lucifer, man I would have LOVED to see this.