He Reacts to Hearing VGM for the first time...

[@namelessnpc6689]

"Oh crap, he's not impressed. Time to pull out Die Mittsommernacht fantasie"

[@DR_REDACTED]

Marco you sure you didn't just pull yourself from the future? You two look way too similar😂

[@SSlash]

I was thinking that too, he coulda said it was his uncle or something and I woulda believed it🤣

[@wajih5068]

Guys guys, just because they are both bearded men doesn't mean they are related😂 and btw garth is more handsome 😁

[@SSlash]

@@wajih5068 you can't deny they look KINDA similar tho cmon 💀

[@mekbots]

It's quite refreshing to listen to a candid and at times blunt analysis of music which otherwise is accepted as being a masterpiece of the modern age while still acknowledging its strengths.

[@Roronoa2zoro]

Agreed. Both Garth and Kostis who have been probably the more critical guests have been very *interesting* . That's the only word I can think of for it. It's just interesting to hear that professional dissection of something from someone who can respect what's going on and analyse what's being done without necessarily finding it personally appealing. On the other hand, when some of the other guests like Kathleen and Robert Tuohy have come on and have been very positive toward video game music it's felt *validating* and *fun* to have guests who can join in with a lot of our own enthusiasm. It speaks well of Marco's choice of guests too that we get this broad a variety of opinions in these videos.

[@ShiroKage009]

The VGM pieces that are accepted as masterpieces are accepted as masterpieces within the medium they're meant for. It's taste. I would prefer many VGM soundtracks over the vast majority of classical music. Just because someone who's fully steeped in classical music is critical doesn't mean anything. It is, however, the most interesting because they actually have an outsider's prospective and aren't pandering.

[@Deebus]

I think it’s very interesting to see the perspective from someone who’s judging the music based on itself in a vacuum as opposed to the piece in the context of what it’s meant to do in the game. For example a main menu theme isn’t and shouldn’t be a complex piece that goes places but in its own vacuum outside the context of being a menu theme, it’s not as special as it is in its context. That’s why video game music is so unique from standard classical music, it’s not just about the piece in a vacuum, it’s about its effect in context with its purpose of a game when it plays and not about standing on its own

[@stephmendes_]

When Marco said he was going to play Mittsommernacht Fantasie I knew he summoned 100% of his power 😂

[@Ace_Maus]

love how he flexes Fischl's songs to others so excitedly

[@ibelieveinwoozisupremacy8681]

its like he pull out his gauntlet with his 6 gems

[@Thablet]

I swear, Die Mittsommernachts Fantasie is like an eargasm. Every. Single. Time.

[@Staye100]

We need to get Garth back, the in depth talk for each track was really good, as well chemistry between you two was awesome, which makes sense with him being your former teacher. I would love to see him analyze more "out there" tracks. The conversation was awesome!

[@Matias-cx3wg]

The moment your teacher smiled at the electric guitar of Die Mittsommernacht-Fantasie is fantastic

[@yadiracamacho499]

I guess the issue with vgm is that the repetition is sort of baked in, since a lot of the music is meant to be heard as a loop in the background, not as a song by itself.

[@Alex_Fahey]

It's an intrinsic problem when you rely on music to complete the soundscape of the game because no one player matches the speed of another. A random level of a game may take someone 3 minutes and another 30 minutes, and the music director needs to build a piece that works regardless. The less expensive solution is to create a more 'elevator music' style along the lines of classic JRPGs where the music is set up to repeat endlessly until the level or zone is left. The other route is something like Halo or other modern shooters, where you just let the full piece play out at specific points and rely on the variety of sound effects to fill the rest of the space between seperate pieces.

[@glowerworm]

Also because you spend more than 10+ hours with a game which is pretty unique to the medium. So you can evoke a sort-of short term nostalgia from your players by revisiting the same melody at the beginning and the end of the game. Movies and albums don't have this to the same extent because you don't spend as much time with them.

[@holysecret2]

However it's not like all video game music suffers because of this limitation. There are great repetetive action themes that are much less straining on the ears. Nier - A Beautiful Song for example is very fast and dramatic, but also pleasant for the ear because it has contrast, development, even though it repeats a lot over a 5-10 minute fight. I was not a huge fan of this Honkai Star Rail soundtrack because it was almost excessive and uninterrupted hype and action with little downtime or space. There are such creative and interesting ways of writing battle music that do not rely on constant action and volume. All the Undertale battle themes for example, a lot of Witcher 3 combat music, Warcraft, Furi, Transistor, God of War 4 and Ragnarok, a lot of great action music with either less repetetiveness or more contrast and space (and to be honest creativity) in the composition

[@ZnakerFIN]

I love how Remedy solved this issue in Control with the Ashtray Maze part and song Take Control. When you spend "too much" time in one part of it, the song loops the part of the song meant for that location, not the whole song. And when you move forward in the Ashtray Maze area, the song continues as well. And I would say that it works well as a song on its own too kzbin.info/www/bejne/oWG0pHuBfZxqg6s

[@RobinsMusic]

@@glowerworm movies definetely do have this, for example the up movie uses that one melodie throughout the whole movie in different ways, but obviously a game will have more impact because its longer

[@olianims]

Wtf u two look exactly alike just with different hair color

[@apexzora4423]

He looks like his dad

[@JagrasSneedandFeed]

Player 2 color

[@lukespetschanel]

Lol ye

[@Fourtune1]

Echo Fighter Marco

[@gings4ever]

I'm actually surprised that Garth nailed Specter's theme as "the little mermaid on Acid" since the composer for that should have been making tracks for Disney parks if memory serves

[@nitsuji6705]

I love how that fits with the lore... Specter was in a perpetual acid trip with concentrated originium in her veins (nerves actually)

[@firesturmgaming]

Her alter form is somewhat less on the acid trip but more at the same time. It turns out her personality was already like a slightly deranged version of acid trip Specter.

[@danielliang9266]

This is actually my favourite one, I love how he delivers his insight on the topic as well as what he talks about and how he notes what he hears from the music so he can give a more insightful response. As well as his humor xD Thanks for bringing him on!

[@MrKlarthums]

Fantastic guest. Could probably listen to Garth talk trash on my favorite VGMs for hours. I have to agree with him that VGM often has an excess of repetition that doesn't transition well into the standalone listening experience. I can accept quite a bit of repetition, but it is more interesting to hear an instrumental track like the last one (Die Mittsommernacht-Fantasie) which has a lot of variation and development. The repetitive elements in that track make it more coherent for me and they don't get boring because of the variety on top.

[@RobinsMusic]

true, though imo he couldve picked more interesting tracks compaored to the ones that he picked because a lot of these are quite repetetive yeah

[@omega1231]

"I'm not known for my tact" Ah a true music teacher, the only tact they know is measures of time.

[@mop-kun2381]

"i'll find some slower stuff" *show Die Mittsommernacht Fantasie Never change Marco

[@dottn]

I really enjoyed listening to Garth's critique in this vod, and came away from it with an appreciation of the "I did (not) like this because ..." philosophy. Mostly because I too fall in the "oh, this is nice" or "not for me, next" traps without the reasoning, without really recognizing what is my taste in music/games/many things. Thank you both, Marco for introducing us to Garth, and Garth for the insight.

[@NullIity]

I love Die Mittsommernacht Fantasie so much

[@musicvideo5946]

Yeah, I wouldn't mind having Fischl in every event if everytime they introduced new Fischl theme that is as good as Die Mittsommernacht Fantasie.

[@Thablet]

Agree, it's by far my favorite Genshin track.

[@Keaton_Ambrose]

50:52 Garth nails the soundtracks leitmotif; that four note descending figure is a part of every song on the soundtrack in some way!

[@UrLastSurprise]

Couldn’t have ended off on a better piece!

[@aeliusdawn]

Your profile pic.. 😥 Joyconboyz

[@Jakco808]

Joyconmen

[@UrLastSurprise]

@@aeliusdawn 🖤

[@NigelUnleashed]

This guy is awesome! I hope you have him back. He has wonderful observations and is great at explaining things.

[@supermouseclick]

1:59:14 I find this point interesting by Garth which I never would have picked up on myself. A significant part of Fischl's story was the conflict she had felt in herself due to her developed persona. It's amazing how a singular sound can give that impression, especially since he has no context at all. More Garth, please.

[@TheIssac1070]

First, the fact that your music teacher has “Bard” in his name, is just great. Second, love watching these videos, thank the KZbin algorithm and I subscribed. Third, if possible, I’d like to make some recommendations of songs for a future video? Satorl Marsh(night) -> Xenoblade Chronicles Midna’s Lament -> Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess J-E-N-O-V-A -> Final Fantasy 7 Remake Answers -> Final Fantasy 14 Online Any of these songs would be awesome in a video. Even if not, I still enjoy the content and thank you.

[@jorgegimenotolosana3103]

Great episode, the perspective he gives is very constructive. It's obvoius that criticizing something we love feels uncomfortable, but it lets us grow and see these themes with another eyes. We will still enjoy them anyway because of the experience that remind us. PS. Jazz... Persona or Mario may help with that. And regarding Mario, Gusty Garden is a very interesting pick for this episodes.

[@nintendocyclone]

It's insane that you've yet to show one of these folks Lady Maria -- I'd love to see a reaction to the 1 minute climax of that song from someone who wouldn't expect such from VGM.

[@sigitwirawan2144]

His insight is really priceless for us video game music enthusiasts because he can explain why we are hooked on some soundtracks while others we are not although it is back to each's taste and preference but he nailed it. And repeatability in music is never a weakness but what matters is how good the delivery of the piece.

[@reveriesend4668]

Btw it's so fitting that he was talking about Bolero before Die Mittsommernacht lol.

[@sarcadoodle4036]

I had to watch the full VOD for this one rather than the abridged version because Garth was an excellent guest. The way he phrased his view points and even asked some interesting questions really stood out to me, he's one of my favourites you've had on so far!

[@Manu-dm5qd]

I would love to see another video with him but with more diverse/ less classical songs

[@TheRaven24]

I think we need about 12 more hours of Garth. When you do these I always wonder which Genshin track you will end up playing and you certainly ended on a fantastic one.

[@GugureSux]

Like I already ocmmented on the super-cut version earlier: love the idea of these videos! What frustrates me to no end is knowing that there'd be THOUSANDS of killer soundtracks from countless games, and there's absolutely no way to cover them all in a video or two. Nor can I expect a single person to even think of all the favorites I have in mind; Silent Hill, Metal Gear, NieR / Drakengard, Persona, Yakuza ... just to name a few.

[@mage6325]

this is probably the best video of these yet, amazing guest and discussion. thank you marco!!

[@mezzelblack]

Thank you so much Marco for these wonderful videos! I love watching them. Your guests always have such insightful input. Keep it up!

[@barelyfunctioning1336]

"I'm a jack of all trades". Congratulation, your former teacher is a bard xD

[@tomjameshh]

What thoughtful and interesting commentary. Looking forward to more Garth!

[@oxenfree117]

Garth is so informative, please bring him back! I love how he analyse the music and bring in his own perspectives.

[@cocobunitacobuni8738]

When you play a piece of music to your teacher and he starts making notes

[@sairentov]

More Garth please! (if he doesnt mind)! Loved the opinions, analytic critique and pointing out overused 'tricks' and formulas. This was insanely interesting. As someone else already coined in the comments - I could listen to him talk trash about my favorite VGM for hours. Also i wish to try redeem Xenoblade a bit. Even though im a complete dumbass with these things, a few tracks come to mind with regards to not relying on synth and less repetition: Torna's "Battle!!"', XC2's "The Tomorrow With You", XC3's "Carrying the Weight of Life", "The Great Sea Stirs", maybe even "Moebius Battle M"

[@asdf_asdf948]

It's interesting to see the viewpoint of people who are musicians who find these pieces boring or simple, from their perspective maybe the ideas and musicality isn't the most complex or technically involved. But that's part of why people love them so much, they have simple, memorable leitmotifs and melodies that are able to engage people while being in the background

[@holysecret2]

I'm not a trained musician myself, but I also found some of these pieces either boring or almost oppressive in their relentless volume and "hypeness". I never liked the choir part in this WoW soundtrack for example, it always sounded bland and sort of forced to me. It lacks proper support and contrast and the choir feels like its drowning itself out somehow, you barely recognize the human voices within it. The same thing annoys me in the Skyrim soundtrack. I much much prefer the Peter Hollens cover of the main theme compared to the original. Peter singing it alone (with like 5 copies) sounds much more impressive and grand than those 100+ voices or however many that collapse in on themselves.

[@Alex.Holland]

They are also missing all the context of how the pieces relate to moments, characters, areas, zones, themes, etc from inside the games, the context of technical limitations like the tracks needing to loop, scale with combat or peaceful moments, etc. So much of the complexity of video game music comes from how it interweaves with the game itself. Video game music is more pop ish, more designed to appeal to masses, and that will always be less niche, but there is plenty of technical complexity that these people are not well tuned to appreciate.

[@seajay7944]

@@holysecret2 Very accurate take. I was a vocalist for many different sized choirs and groups. I hated singing with a full orchestra. Personally I'd enjoy performing with an octet or sextet but when it came to richness of the human voice bringing all the dynamics into play for an excellent piece, a chamber choir of ~20 people hit just right.

[@Ace_Maus]

Yes, especially considering when you are engaging with the game itself, so your focus is on the gameplay. The recognizable leitmotifs work in favor of vgm bc of how the listener is doing something, usually complex, as it plays.

[@-Devy-]

@@holysecret2 What a load of pretentious garbage.

[@AlleonoriCat]

This is my favorite one yet, your guest is totally amazing. I laughed out loud so many times on his takes because he's right and he's not afraid to be right and I respect it a lot

[@zeroiscubed7823]

Garth brought up so many amazing concepts that all deserve more discussion and attention. -Media fandoms (not just gaming) serving a modern religious role, both the good parts (community, comfort and familiarity through repeating stories, exposure/education about philosophy and the world) and the conflict. -"Don't you get tired of epic fighting?" This is tied more to the mechanical aspect of games than the artistic, combat through Attacking and Health or through sports and Score has always been what the digital interactive medium excelled at, so it's where the most effort was put, where the most trends were established, and where the art has followed. Modern games do put a lot of effort into the downtime between fights, for pacing purposes, to give a more rounded experience, or completely redefining "fights" because combat isn't the core of the artistic vision anymore. So it's not that games are always locked in epic combat, but that is what game creators and players know the best, it's the base that many other ideas can branch out from. -"Why are so many video game songs variations that go nowhere?" Some of this mirrors what Garth said about the movie industry, it doesn't need to stand out to properly support the project it is a piece in, so why bother? Game soundtracks can get away with being more repetitive when in context the player's attention is mostly consumed with a difficult task. But games also have a unique issue of having no idea how long a player will be experiencing a particular piece, they could wander around a scene for hours or dash through it in 5 minutes, so having a piece that goes nowhere and can easily loop fits this variable timeframe. More often "movement" is created by transitioning between these simple, critically boring tracks. -Always criticize with a Why, and respect other's Why especially when you don't agree. I'm of the opinion that the blender of influences in Awaken is wonderful both in the context of the identity uncertainties of the character being described and that lacking a solid base influence does not affect my casual listening experience, but Garth really highlights the difference between respectful criticism over throwing out opinions. -Synthetic instruments has been a long discussion in gaming, early on highly synthetic computer noises were the best the hardware could manage and synthetic styles still have charm, but in many modern cases it is simply a cost cut over human musicians, and if that's for acceptable or not is very debated. -And of course, continuing the conversation Marco has been having about external context, how it is almost completely unneeded in high-level music comprehension, yet provides so much teaching to people who haven't lived their whole life absorbing musical context.

[@AlexKeal]

Well said. I have no expertise when it comes to music what so ever but I'd like to share an opinion in the case of Synthetics, there are some tracks I feel would not be as good had it used actual instrumentation. The PGR track, last resort, is my main example for this. I cannot pinpoint as to why exactly, but the use of electronic and synthetic sounds just seem right for the style of music it is.

[@captainsavvy07]

I would love to see more Darren Korb/Supergiant games music in these videos 😊 But maybe that's just because I love their soundtracks so much I want more people to hear them 😅 I'd love Garth to come back. He was so knowledgeable and personable.

[@Eyeronic1]

I love Darren Korb's stuff. Nice pick.

[@LiftTrue]

Garth's criticisms are right on target, a very interesting interview and the reaction was good, thanks Marco!🥰

[@sprinkles9504]

Interesting, so im not the best at analyzing music, you two have like way more expeirence than me on that. But i really liked how Garth described how he teaches his student about not saying I dont like this but saying I dont like this because, which I feel is a really important thing and glad he brought up because especially in today's day if someone doesnt like something its just considered trash, and that always really bugged me especially for music. Hearing Garths take on especially Xenoblade title screen was interesting too. Because that song is basicall my favorite song of all time, mostly because of the time in my life I heard it and it brings me back to a better time in my life, but nonetheless it is one of my fav so hearing someones reaction to it and having a lot of criticisms was interesting. I 100 percent see what he was saying about it like repeating and I get think thats valid I didnt agree on everything he said about it (could be my nostalgia factor for the song) but it is criticism and its valid, but once again I dont have as much knowledge, and I think just liking a song for reasons like that is good and okay. Sometimes I dont think that fully matter of not having knowledge as much but im prob wrong idk, but I was glad that he wasnt just like nah this kinda sucks and voiced why he liked it and didnt just call it bad. Really had me thinking for a bit but a fun time.

[@PabloEsc666]

As wow player who basically grew up on the game, I always have goosebumbs all over my body and chills down my spine every time I hear Arthas, My Son... It's just so special piece for me bonded with so many good memories from the game 🥰

[@Vykrii]

Musically I feel like the new version of Snow in Summer is a lot more interesting. Cheers, love the insight of these interviews/collaborations.

[@Peeplii]

Agreed. There just something more powerful to the newer version I can't get enough of. Both versions are phenomenal and (to me at least) convey the emotions of that part of the story. Route A- hero saving the day so the song feels triumphant Route B- Finding out you maybe might not be a hero and you aren't saving the day and the song feels heavy now

[@Zeldazocker100]

Have a lot to say about this, but I'll try to organize my thoughts a bit. So the important bits first, again very cool to have people with decades of experience "in high places". I also really appreciate the notion of trying to find an argument for why you are feeling a certain way, because that can still carry value to others even regardless of their opinion or feelings and it cools a discussion down. That it's not about who has better taste, but rather what you value in music being different or that you have a different viewpoint. I feel if you bring people back as a repeated guest, it would be nice to take them up on their ideas of what they didn't get the first time around. So, if someone says "bring me the jazz" or "that was too normal, give me the weirdest thing you have" or something, that is something you can call back to. With jazz in particular you can of course take two approaches. 1. VGM meant to be jazz as part of an OST like for instance Pleasure Quarter from Gravity Rush or Cuphead (for example, Inkwell Isle One) or the OST for Grim Fandango, and I'm sure there's lots of other examples. 2. Game music that real, sometimes prolific jazz musicians have arranged into jazz, the same way that early jazz musicians adapted pop music from their time. Would be worth mentioning Bob-omb Battlefield from Super Mario 64 (yes I know, Nintendo and Copyright and Licensing etc.) because that is one track that most jazz musicians that want to adopt VGM are familiar with, with the version from The 8-Bit Big Band probably being the most high profile one around. Notably, Nintendo did a jazz rendition of that theme for Mario Galaxy 2 in Throwback Galaxy (while sticking to the form of a looping vgm track). And of course the arrangement of Meta Knight's Revenge that won The 8-Bit Big Band, and more specifically Charlie Rosen and Jake Silverman as arrangers, a Grammy award. (I'm pretty sure arrangements are out-of-scope for this show, but I think there would be merit in mentioning these in the discussion bit.) Next, I do find interesting the distinct world views of classical music versus pop or music that developed more from folk music. Where classical music has always had "the money behind it" with the church or whatever aristocracy backing it. There the mindset for quality is "To accept nothing less". The king wants to sit in his personal lounge in his royal theater, listen to his 60-piece opera and it is the musicians lot to prove they belong there. There is to be no compromise in matters of quality or skill. Whereas in more pop, folk or "common people" music, it is more about working yourself up to the highest standard you can reach, that still reaches the people. This is the space where music careers start with three guys in a parking lot, scrounging together enough money for a recording, not the highest possible quality one but one they can afford, so that their music can play on the car radio. With the aim being selling out the biggest stadiums, but willing to compromise on purity if it means reaching a bigger audience. I feel like video games are often in the second mindset, with either technology or budget being the limiting factors. For instance, Wario Ware: Touched! (yes, Nintendo again) has two vocal tracks in a DS game with Ashley's Theme and Mike's Theme. That involved a lot of compromises with heavily compressed samples and technical workarounds, but it was clearly the priority to have vocal tracks at all. Also, I think that is a contributing factor to keeping old themes around and modernising them with the possibilies that the composer perhaps wished they had 20 or 30 years ago. Where they had these influences they wanted to bring into the score with whatever means available. Not saying either view is right or wrong, mind you, just different spheres and ways of thinking about music. But I think it is interesting to see these worlds collide with one side being kind of sad they could not afford real instruments, or it being lesser than what they are used to, and on the other the resolve to get the highest quality sound, and the most real instruments that the budget would allow for into a then-niche game. On the subject of diegetic music, Splatoon's OST (again Nintendo) is predominantly diegetic, where for instance the bosses provide the music for their encounters, same with the music for the stages in singleplayer as well as the multiplayer tracks being assigned to in-universe bands that have their own unique styles. The ingame events called splatfests also have diegetically live performances with Anarchy Poisons from Splatoon 3 being imho the most interesting. Basically, there are three platforms carrying the 3 members of the in-game Band Deep Cut around the hub area in Splatsville in a big circle, each having their own distinct version of the track, and depending on where the player is standing they can hear up to 2 of them at the same time, or be so close to one of them that one drowns the others out. Sorry for writing an essay.

[@nicholasmills4925]

My connection to the Final Fantasy has to be my childhood and the music is to always been so fun to listen to from my early teens to current day mid 30's. I will always have a special place in my heart for the series. Thank you Marco and Garth for giving insight into how the production for the musicians that are hired to go and bring the music to life (so to speak) looking forward to your next guest Marco.

[@Emyndel]

More Garth, I'll watch this full video again for sure! This is wonderful, thank you. Persona 5 might hit those modal, jazz-borrowing notes perhaps!

[@trashraccoon2635]

i love garth and his perspective! i hope we get to hear more from him, he has a lot to say and always like learning things i wouldn't get to learn otherwise. his point on being critical and knowing why you like or don't like something is really on point and i wish more people have that mindset, because there's no discussion you can have if someone just says "this is bad" and doesn't elaborate. i'm also loving how die mittsommernacht fantasie seems to be the One Universally Acclaimed piece. chaddest vgm to ever vgm

[@OrojinMusic]

I love the philosophical discussion around FF. It's like any other form of media, enjoying an author's works or a director's films. You love Final Fantasy because you love the style in which Square Enix creates characters and tells stories. It's a similar formula each time and Nobuo's music pair's perfectly. But it's like anime. It's a style of writing stories, creating worlds, and a standard hero arc.

[@Kanthalas]

I always enjoy watching people hear VGM for the first time.

[@Jakco808]

Yeah it's funny when showing my father because he's always taken back and Suprised. In this day and age, people shouldn't be too surprised to hear oprah and symphonic music in games yk?

[@totoandball]

Die mittsommernacth. I can’t believe that just a short event BGM, it the same level of main boss fight theme music.

[@nobrainnogame4320]

Die mittsommernacht fantasie is by far favorite one on this serie. I'm kind of sucker for baroque style and I really love this song use really classic constructions and still manage to surprise me with a very fun and modern tune. It also gives mysterious, and sometimes epic, vibes. But at the same time, it's very mischievous so you can't take the situation seriously. Very fitting considering that it's based on Fischl character, who is delusional chuuni.

[@channelwacke]

Marco, if you want a composer whose works never get repetitive and CONSTANTLY go places you never expect next, listen to the soundtrack of the first Castlevania: Lords of Shadow. Oscar Araujo is one of the best game composers of the last decade, every song twists and turns through multiple motifs and keys and time signatures and ideas. It's thrilling. Try "The Swamp Troll"and see what you think.

[@xKALLx1]

Garth is a great guest, an informed critical opinion is a nice breath of fresh air. Tired of people who don't feel comfortable enough to say anything other than something positive. I guess that's where his experience of a teacher really shows.

[@gcsound12]

His comment on the lack of “development” is interesting. From the standpoint of a classical music background it totally makes sense to look for that and not usually find it, but “Development” in the classical sense isn’t really done as much within one singular piece in a game soundtrack. Rather, a theme or leitmotif’s typical development might occur over the course of the whole game. Final Fantasy does this best IMO (with 7, 10, 12 and Remake being particular standouts in this regard) where the various theme statements are presented in different keys at various points in the game and are broken down, reconstructed, and pit against other themes to support the narrative. All of that I’d still say is different than a “theme and variations” approach as well. But anyway, cool episode and interesting discussion!

[@SventFulgur]

Lol Marco saying that's a topic for a different conversation as if we weren't enjoying the wholesome recollection of his Opera education/career! 🥰

[@lightzpy8049]

I loved Garth criticism, it is true many VGM's do feel plain rebuttals that seem to cycle across a melody and not want to disrupt the theme of the music sadly. Glad a music dad like Garth could give his insight.

[@glowerworm]

The reason they do that is because it works better for games. You spend 10+ hours with a video game so it has the unique ability to make you feel short-term nostalgia by revisiting the same melodies. Also the repetition has added benefit of staying in your memory for a long time, which is ideal for a consumer product (which video games historically are). That's how you wind up with life-long fans of Zelda and Pokémon who continue to buy the brand even though the games aren't actually the best of their genres anymore (especially Pokémon lmao).

[@lightzpy8049]

The main reason is likely because many classical and singing songs are meant to convey a story or theme. While VGM are many times background lofi music, unless it's battles or some type of cut-scene@@glowerworm

[@JohnTeller-dy9mt]

⁠​⁠@@glowerwormwhat turn based games or monster catchers compete with Pokémon? Are turn based rpg even still alive apart from Pokémon, I can’t think of a mainstream one. Or when you say “genre” are you just referring to rpgs in general? Because as far as turn based and monster catchers go, I don’t think there’s a mainstream living franchise competing with Pokémon in those genres. I could be wrong though, I don’t really play games much anymore

[@diegoramos2518]

Another reason this is the case and why some VGM can be repetitive, is that in any case the music is being used in a dynamic situation/environments, the music has to be able to transition in a way that feels natural like it's all part of one long track

[@anusaukko6792]

@@JohnTeller-dy9mt I mean I can think of atleast a few turn based games that aren't mainstream or even popular but are still fun and usually genuinely good games, but yeah I cant think of any other monster catcher games besides pokemanz

[@cypp8245]

Definitely want Garth to come back, that was really fun and interesting

[@jarnobot]

Another very interesting video! Thank you so much for making and sharing these! I had some suggestions for future video's. Feel free to ignore them if they don't fit your style, but at the very least I just wanted to make sure you're aware of them: Ni No Kuni: Wrath of the White Witch has a great amount of great, layered pieces. I would recommend checking out the whole OST, but some of my personal favorites are: * In Loving Memory of Allie * World Map * Motorville * The Fairyground From Valheim: * Menu Theme Frostpunk has a lot of great, grimm music as well. It's some of the best VGM I've heard in the games that I've played in the past few years. Some of my favorites are these, but feel free to explore the OST more: * Frostpunk Theme * The City Must Survive * Are We Alone? * The Still, Cold World

[@CelticBotansDigitalArt]

This was a great episode! I thought Mr Garth was very critical, but not unreasonably so. I actually quite agree with some of his thoughts on VGM and how it can sound super generic sometimes. As one of the players who wasn't hooked by HSR for example, I thought a lot of its music was very meh or generic, with a few exceptions. Funny enough, I hadn't heard Phantilia's theme yet up to this episode, and I liked it very very much! It gave me massive Akiko Shikata/chaos language vibes, which is something I love! Another criticism that I agreed with was on the "Awaken" one. I love the Arknights ost, I love musicals, pirates was my entire identity in high school, I like the Little Mermaid and Into the Woods, but that song jsut doesn't work for me, either, due to many reasons (pretty similar to the ones Mr Garth elaborated). It isnt terrible, but def not something I'd go out of my way to play. The whole section where you guys discussed about criticism, and to consume things in a deliberate manner really resonated with me as well, because I do this all the time. I like to think about why I dislike the things I do, sometimes it's really not for us and that's alright, or just straight up terribly done, but more than often we can fall into traps of preconceived ideas, or just be too proud or stubborn to actually give something different a chance; and the other way around too is super valid, to really put thought into why we like the things we like. I do that all the time, and it's tied not only to my personal taste, but also my personal experiences, how I see the world, how I see people. It's an exercise that can be quite revealing about ourselves! Once again, amazing discussion! Hope he isn't too bored for a round 2 in the future :P PS.: Ravel's Bolero is indeed a banger, I've known it for years - maybe because of Digimon?? I'm pretty sure it was used in the movie - and it's one of my fave classical pieces!

[@TheNaomeister]

I really hope you'll get Garth back on again! I love the way he both appreciates and critiques the songs! He's very candid in how he talks about them, but yet always has a great appreciation for the art form and the work that goes into the music! If you have him on again, I hope you'll end up having him react to some of the calmer or more emotional gaming masterpieces, beyond just the battle themes! Rivellon (from Divinity: Original Sin 2), 14.3 Billion Years (Outer Wilds), Magcina (Jagged Alliance 3), Sogno di Volare or the Cree or Maori Industrial Themes (Civilization 6), pretty much any ambient music from the recent Total War games (Troy, Attila, Three Kingdoms), etc! There are so many wonderful soundtracks that could give him plenty of variety in styles and emotions to explore, and I'd love to see him getting a chance to broaden his views on what game music can be!

[@mickaelsflow6774]

I hadn't heard "Snow in Summer" in a long while and I just started tearing up... I still don't know why, but... had to comment: VGM can just do that sometimes.

[@Gr13fM4ch1n3]

Something about Nier just sends me.

[@DriftRifter]

If you ever bring a percussionist on, I'd suggest playing a track or two from the original Spyro the Dragon. It was composed as basically a paid passion project by Stewart Copeland, one of the greatest drummers of our time. Really interesting, nothing quite like it when you really sit down and start to analyze.

[@ChenAnPin]

Just coming from the shortened edited video version, I'm glad you were only presenting the music to him without any context or visual aids that might affect his opinion.

[@narius_jaden215]

When people say "Don't you get bored of constantly battling", I question that. I'm not really a fighter, but fighting in any form is an activity humans find THRILLING xD. All In all, I didn't agree with his opinions too much but I also still enjoy this series and seeing how different people feel about video game osts.

[@devolays]

1:18:00 Thank you for saying this, so I don't feel like I'm on crazy pills anymore. As much as I like star rail music, I think genshin's so much better. It's also partly because star rail is a turn-based game, and the music is made in that "stalling" fashion. Like elevator music. Or shopping music. "Idle" music, if you will. So it's great when you hear it in the game, but loses a lot when you take it out of the game. Genshin's on the other hand, is incredible even outside the game. On a side note, I think Garth would love Kakul Saydon theme, "Splendid Circus", from Lost Ark. It's like an evil circus theme, but not in a dark or scary way. It's jazzy, silly, and fun. Something like the music from The Mask.

[@Tortuguita117]

frfr

[@DravenxEyeless]

I was thinking he would be thrilled with Ascension and beyond impressed by the neo-classical composition, and the first thing he says if you don't get bored by all the long battles lmao

[@TiagoToshimi]

Very interesting conversation, hope Garth comes back!

[@Musicman9096]

As someone that is not as musically learned I love these videos, be it positives or critiques I find it all very enlightening. Keep it up and I'm sure all the people you bring will shed more light on the music we all enjoy. Thanks Marco!

[@JaggerG]

Loved it. Even though it may be disappointing if he didn’t like something, he’d been respectful of it, and I appreciated his honest reactions all the more for it. It sounds like he’s asking for some Persona music, but also maybe chuck in some Undertale to tease and undermine his criticism for repetition lol. Either Undertale (the track) or Your Best Nightmare might be good ones. Pizza Time is a solid jam, too.

[@yaldabaoth7603]

I found it interesting how Garth mentioned in the beginning that he was warned against being a Jack of all trades, but many forget how the saying actually goes, “A Jack of all trades is a master of none but better to be that than a master of one”. It’ll take you further in life to be good at a variety of things than to be an expert in only one thing!

[@MetalGamely]

Fantastic line-up of songs! Thanks for the video

[@LNgKhoi]

I would love to see more and more of your teacher. His inputs are very helpful, in many ways

[@ArtWithSR]

I think at this point I can't wait for you to bring out "God Shattering Star" to really make people REALLY impressed haha!

[@plusRpm]

I could watch garth analyze masterpieces of gaming music for hours. There is something supremely enjoyable in a man who is knowledgeable and analytic while also not being appreciative for the sake of being nice but only when there is something to be appreciative of, from his perspective anyways. I prefer to hear opinions of people who are blunt and honest. Also he is so very articulate with his descriptions.

[@Peeplii]

"Its either holy or its evil" That alone is such a good way to describe the feeling the song gives in game. Route A you feel like a hero climbing to fight the last boss. Route C you know the truth about things so the song feels sad and bleak

[@darknova0476]

You need to make a Playlist for these!

[@pite9]

An important point about the Title Theme of Xenoblade is that title themes in japanese games, in particular rpg's and story oriented games are supposed to be understated and concise. The typical blueprint of a title theme is just a solo piano. Adding basic strings or a solo acoustic instrument is acceptable, but that's pretty much it. Often the Title theme will have the main melodic theme, but there will always be other songs using the same melody with more busy arrangements.

[@cn2490]

Mr Garth is so good at painting picture with words. For me the music that is so visceral that image is inadequate to represent all of its context is the opening scene music of the movie The Shining.

[@Commandant_Vermon]

God I could listen to these two talk for hours about this, please do bring him back on sometime Marco. Both of your opinions and conversations were quite pleasant to listen.

[@Ace_Maus]

I just realized...Marco, even if you've not made a video on it, I hope you have listened to Super Smash Bros. Brawl's opening theme. The operatic singing in it and the percussion are epic. It is beautiful, and everyone in my family gets hyped as soon as we hear the first three notes.

[@shiveshjackpersad1461]

1:31:02 to 1:31:12 "Did the sun come out for 30 seconds?", That is exactly what happend when that point of the song plays on the title screen💀💀

[@TheUncannyF]

What an awesome guest! I'm not at all versed in the arts, but whenever I got into deeper discussion with someone who was, they pointed out exactly what Your guest highlighted: Why do you like it? Why do you not like it?

[@DenisRozenk]

oh my, that was good guest! hope we can see his reactions to Tartaglia/Signora/Raiden (and maybe Tenebre Rosso Sangue ULTRAKILL prank)

[@CorvoA77ano]

I really loved all that he said. It's interesting to see how most of the music we love, when viewed from a different perspective becomes something completely else. I find this such perspective changes really fascinating.

[@WildspeakerYT]

I advocate to take him back to hear more Xenoblade, he literally heared the first song of the first game, it woulf be amazing if he could hear how the music evolved in the saga itself, mostly since XC2 to Future Connected to XC3 to Future Redeemed the change was drasticly harder not only for the saga, but for the genre

[@KermRiv]

i would love this guy's take on Ludwig the Holy and Accursed Blade

[@DuskWolf224]

There is some very interesting criticism there! I have to say, though, while I'm not super knowledgeable on the behind the scenes of VGM, I feel like some of the (constructive) criticism touches on some of the restraints that are common in video games, especially older ones that had limited storage space & whatnot, plus the importance of having the music not taking too much attention off of the game (like during combat; repetitiveness can make it easier to focus). I think that composing music for games vs composing for movies or operas has very different types of constraints or parameters.

[@DuskWolf224]

On the other hand, when you have composers who can work around these contraints, you can get some absolutely jaw-dropping music (i.e. Octopath Traveler^^)

[@gedece]

I loved this one, quite insightful analysis and a good sense of humor. Besides that I wanted to point that I'd like you to add the opening song of the Elsweyr expansion of Elder Scrolls Online, A Clash of Fang and Flame. I'm not a musically trained person, but I really love the composition Brad Derrick did on that one.

[@Gabzilla27]

Hyped for this!

[@juilescieg]

I though about my first kind of musical impact or imprint in my live. For me, if I have to be honest, it was the Game Boys Tetris. Those Tetris melodies are with me even today. After that, it was probably Super Mario, maybe Zelda too. But if I have to pick a few "beautiful" or "special" very early pieces, then it would be from games like: Final Fantasy 8 (all the background music like balamb garden) , Silent Hill 1 (intro, but also the disturbing backgrounds) and for some time even the Tomb Raider 1 Intro. ^^ From that point on it evolved more and more. I would even say, that the music is a very big and important aspect in a game for me nowadays. By the way, would you mind make a reaction on dmc3 vergil boss battle 3. ? I think, there is so much going on, in it. (it kind of repeats after the half)

[@CQuoia]

Sooo glad we heard Bardsley-sensei in this episode! I tend to have a similar mindset as to being critical with what I appreciate or not. And not being a musician myself, I often think of a lot of music I like, even though I can feel that they are not the best out there. Especially with Shimomura's Xenoblade Main Theme: I love the series and this game to death, and so I like this theme very dearly for what it represents ; but I always felt like it was quite a simple, and almost generic piece, far from my favourites. The more we listen to music (as in every disciplin), the more we might expect from it not to be boring. Not to say that we cannot enjoy simpler tracks (and we can sometimes be stunned by a simple track which has THAT one more thing to make it resonate with us), we simply expect more and more to be astonished by it. Luckily, there are always fields of music that we are not accustomed to for us to discover, which sometimes call for a whole different attitude when listening to it! While retaining this critical mindset, diversifying our expectations can be a great way to appreciate different music. About the track listing, I agree that there was too much battle music in this session. Video game music is filled to the brim with calm, beautiful pieces (Xenoblade fan talking 😂), songs, experimental compositions, interesting mixes of styles etc. Displaying a wider diversity of emotions might be a good idea for the future! Well, once again thank you so much for the hard work! And here I go with a recommandation: Our Paths May Never Cross From "Xenoblade Chronicles 2: Torna - The Golden Country" Composition: Yasunori Mitsuda Arrangement: Mariam Abounnasr A battle track, ironically, but very different from the rest! (Please prefer the official releases versions on Max G.'s channel for Xenoblade music: one loop with proper ending.) Cheers from the Land of Leblanc and Ravel!

[@In-Midnight-Clad]

I loved this! Garth is great!

[@charlieparfait5721]

I had to pause after the Nier bit, Garth has so many good point in what he says ! This is one of the most interesting reactor you had so far 👍 And i say without the intention of throwing shade upon the others video you made with anyone else. As someone who is not trained with music but very passionate about it, they were great too 🙂

[@charlieparfait5721]

By the way, sorry for my english, i'm a french noobie 😉

[@TF_Tony]

World of Warcraft - Serpent Riders World of Warcraft - The Golden Lotus (Sorry, I was just always in love with the Mists of Pandaria soundtrack and I would love to see some reactions to that amazing OST. Also, if you have the time, Heart of Pandaria, which is sort of a medley, but it also lasts 8 minutes, so...)

[@jojolaivas3532]

The analysis of Snow in Summer blew my mind before it was even halfway through. The fact that he picked up on so many things that would normally need a spoiler warning is just insane to me. Bring Garth back!

[@mistared4021]

As always im very amazed that things that are just music to me(that definitely affects me emotionally, i just can't parse it yhe way you can) becomes it's own language when people with a background in it listen. A couple of things that I liked is that mention of references and how they have different meanings attached to them in different places around the world, im sure marco has explained that before as well. Then there was that mention of how a bit of music mixing instruments was such a revolutionary idea at it's time since my oen country's traditional music has been recently going through this sort of little renaissance because artists are discovering that they can mix traditional Persian singing with rock, blues or even electronic music and how much just the novelty of it adds to the music.

[@blueberryshake333]

More Garth! This was such a treat.

[@The_Dim_Vanced]

I really enjoyed this one. It was very funny to hear his commentary on the Arknights song. Also, even if that song is dear to me, I totally agree with what he said about the Xenoblade main theme and what VGM does a lot of the time. Since he liked Snow in Summer, I hope he could listen to the new version instead of the Gestalt one I know this video is quite old already, but I just wanna say I'm binge watching all of these and I'm having a great time

[@evewhoo]

1:33:43 This was a very interesting take that I never considered before. One of the driving points for Xenoblade Chronicle's main theme is, imo, not the piece itself, but the memories associated with it and what the melody's progression represents. I never thought about how the piece would seem to someone who's never heard it or played the game before. The theme seems to carry a lot of emotional weight when looking at the game as a whole rather than an individual piece.