Heart Rate Variability (HRV), Threshold Training, Healthy Nutrition - Ask a Cycling Coach 354

[@trizvanov]

I am one of those, who is going through that phase in my training program, e.g. Sweet Spot and Thresholds. At 23:50, my tip to think forward and the main benefit that this will give you... that is, think just how much pain you WILL inflict on your fellow riders. :evillaugh: There aren't many things as demoralising, as when someone continues pushing the pace as you go over the crest.

[@skiandbike4life]

I only recently started using HRV with a Whoop 4.0, but have found it quite useful for me so far. I've been able to recognize overtraining before it becomes a problem and it has given some insight into recovery time needed for certain types of workouts. That insight has allowed me to plan more appropriate levels for my workouts and I feel like I have been making more consistent progress because of this. Last week I got a stomach bug and looking at my % recovery actually helped me recognize I shouldn't jump right back to normal intensities yet even though I was starting to feel better. Being sick knocked my recovery down almost 20% lower (to 9%) than when I did a VO2MAX workout and ski toured on the same day recently. If I hadn't seen that info I know I would've tried to do something too difficult, likely failed a workout, and probably would've dug myself an overtraining hole. It is a tool like mentioned though and it's not the only thing I'm using to pick workouts. I'm still using training plans as a guideline in combination with HRV, adaptive training, and looking at where my HR was after I complete workouts. I hadn't thought about the psychological aspect mentioned in the podcast. I will probably make a point not to look at HRV near race time... Especially on 2 day stage races.

[@RabidMortal1]

HRV has really changed how I anticipate my recovery status. So far it's been quiet accurate in predicting how well I can perform on any given day

[@scotth3354]

HRV isn’t a particularly good predictor of performance, anyone can gut their way through a workout or race on a bad HRV day. Its real utility is letting you know if you’re in a position to absorb and adapt to a workout or race.

[@topcat304]

Morning Readiness is most important and for athletes to be done in sitting. My first discovery when I first began HRV monitoring was after a very bad cold, my HRV took 3 weeks to rebound even though I felt better after 1 week. Mostly look for trends rather than 1 reading. For Elite Athletes on teams, the coaches watch the readings and often keep the Athletes blind so an individual reading doesn't affect their motivation. Like most things when logging training, often retrospective monitoring is useful. Lastly the higher your HR is, the less variation in beat interval.

[@topcat304]

Main things that quickly change HRV are number the of hours of sleep and good proper breathing at rest.

[@firewrx612]

HRV is an excellent predictor of illness for me. Several times, I've gotten crazy low numbers and wondered why, then later that day or the next day I start feeling symptoms.

[@juicyfruit100x]

Loved this podcast, thanks all! My Oura Ring revealed "pay attention" on my HRV today as it was dipping this week from intense workouts, work stress, and feeling worn down. I decided to get on my bike anyways, tried the first threshold interval, then called it quits, and realized my HRV alert was spot on. Gave myself Kudos for attempting the workout, but also giving my body the self care it needs today. Thank you HRV for confirming this and making me more aware when I need to rest and prevent putting my body into a hole.

[@TrainerRoad]

Glad you're making good use of that data, awesome!

[@carsonmcclelland3061]

That last topic was spot on

[@TrainerRoad]

Thanks for joining us, Carson!

[@chesterules]

Regarding Over-unders, I've never done them in a training session (I do do them in group rides, though sometimes they are *over*-overs, which is when I get dropped. :p) But the thing that's helped me the most hold near threshold power is doing long rides in zone 2 and actually holding zone 2 power the entire time (including while going up and while going down). Now when I ride with people without power meters I watch them go away from me up the kicker and then I bomb by them down the other side. ;) Doing long steady-state rides was really difficult when I first started doing them, because my whole shtick with dealing with pain as a cyclist before I started doing them was to go at a really hard level that I know I'll only be able to sustain for a short time, go as deep into the red as I can, have a mini-blow up, recover, repeat: this was my way of limiting the amount of time I was suffering for while also feeling like I was getting more bang for my pain-buck as it were (by putting out more power while in the hurt locker albeit for a shorter amount of time). Training long steady state rides taught me how to be uncomfortable for long periods of time and showed me that even though I'm hurting and it sucks, I'm also able to hold it, I'm not blowing up, I just need to focus on keeping the pressure on the pedals, so in a sense for me, suffering has gotten easier as I've "evolved" my relationship to pain *and* I've gotten faster. So, yeah, not only has it taught me how to manage pain better, it's also taught me how to stay focused, especially when things start getting tough, which is such a key facet to learn as a cyclist. So I guess my unprofessional answer to the person's question about alternatives to over-unders, maybe try holding a very narrow watt range (like a ten watt range) for 4 hours and see how you fair. That's literally what I did and it took awhile to get used to it--I failed the first 5 rides or so, but each ride I got better and better at holding the target watts.

[@Richz2]

I with Jonathan with having a box of 'kudos'.. I also do this, I use the 'Notes' section on my calendar to write everything about the workout as well... Nobody may be able to see what I do or even care but the point of my training is about what it does for me, I don't train for anybody else and I have learnt it's important to give yourself credit especially when you complete one of Chad "horror' workouts!

[@scotthoyer8091]

I love the podcast, TR training platform, blogs but the opportunity here to take a deep dive on hrv ended up with a cursory view from presenters that didn’t seem to know much about the topic. There is a wealth of info out there and sure, it’s a field in development but there may well be a solid place in any athletes program for hrv. As a long time Whoop user, I’ve found it very helpful. I think a solid measuring instrument would be helpful as hrv is more of a feature of garmin watches etc than a great way to measure hrv.

[@TrainerRoad]

Totally! The hosts are pretty transparent that the scope of their experience is limited, and try to speak to how athletes should weigh that information in the full scope of their performance and recovery. The scientific research and studies surrounding how we should interpret HRV from a medical perspective is plenty, but how we should use info as *athletes* in relation to performance and recovery from a scientific study version is lacking. This is why the team tries to help guide athletes to decide on an individual level, if its a metric that helps them personally! Thanks for joining us. :)

[@keitmo]

My gym trainer years ago would say "The workout you hate the most is often the one you need the most".

[@TrainerRoad]

GOLD!

[@lancestephenson2665]

@jonathanlee, I’ve made a point of using HRV to guide me towards my Epic training, and I’ve made huge steps in fitness 30% greater fitness and more “resilience “ than ever before. I use a Polar Watch which measure HRV during 4 hours at night during the same hours . I’ve had spot on measurements, bad measurements = poor recovery and visa versa. I have had the occasional “you’re good to go” signal but I feel crap…..but I train and hit PBs! My subjective feelings can muddy the water. Now, I have done HRV for 2 years and the constant metric tracking has shown some interesting rhythms in the body, like I have a 5 week turn around in my body……like a circadian rhythm and I’m going to have an excellent week after that 5 week and then the next week I will be dog shit. Before I could never see this I’m graphs, HRV has helped me not have such a huge discrepancy in that good/bad week by respecting my natural rhythm and easing up on my training and increasing rest. This is how HRV is useful.

[@TrainerRoad]

Stoked you're digging it!

[@3dflyer87]

Well, apparently I'm the only athlete in the world that enjoys over-unders 😀 Definitely one of the few kinds of extended intervals that I get excited for!

[@kathyljohnson6203]

OMG, Sofia and Haley at Cape Epic, that's bonkers!! 😍 Look out, World! Keegan the Beast is then only getting stronger. 😳🇺🇸

[@richjlaw]

Whoop has a journal feature (takes 10 secs to say yes/no every morning) that then uses ML to connect what you do to effect on recovery. By far the biggest contributor to recovery/HRV (over a week - not 1 night) is sleep and to be aware that you likely sleep ~1 hr less than your time in bed. e.g. bed at 11, getting up at 6am, is 6hrs sleep - 7-8 is likely optimal for most people. The best thing about it is that all your other life stresses affect it. It is therefore the only known way to quantify the sum of all these affects - whether it correlates with how you feel or not. Using it for a week is BS - it takes 1-3 months to get a baseline. Sure it will give you data but it's not really just about the daily fluctuations, it's about weekly/monthly trends. Hydration yes. Training in the evening is worse than morning.

[@TrainerRoad]

A great feature to utilize! And Ivy also agreed, using it for a week was not enough time to form a solid opinion other than "cool numbers". ;)

[@sullybiker6520]

I think if you're using resistance rather than ERG if you don't alter it as Jonathan says the only thing you can do is reduce your cadence slightly for the 'under', but two things happen here: You lose a little momentum and you're also spending slightly longer on the power stroke, and for the first few seconds those two things feel like hell on earth.

[@gmoney3189]

Appreciate what you are investing in TR. In %100 honesty I miss when TR was $12.95 and the plans didn't adapt. I understand the concept but I don't think it helps me. I would appreciate if you could offer a more basic TR without the adaptive training for people who have experience and know when to adjust their plan. Glassy -3 is not sweet spot; it's endurance effort. I liked the simplicity and low cost of TR prior to the upgrades. Bring me back to the days of Mary Austin and Leconte. Take care folks.

[@TrainerRoad]

We're discussing a more minimal offering for subscription service options, thanks for your input, this helps!

[@asun3630]

Over Unders I focus on nose breathing and expanding my stomach on the inhale. I always forget to, so O/Us give me a chance to practice that, and forget about the discomfort.

[@TrainerRoad]

A solid tip!

[@TylerSmith-sl2cf]

Over-unders: they don’t get easier, you just get faster!

[@theodoresmith7544]

Hey! I got my question answered on the podcast! However I feel it was slightly misunderstood. Put differently, my question is - can I cram or overload my training right up until my scheduled Ai ramp test? The idea would be to give as much data as possible right up until the test. Press the magic button and I’m away! I ask this as if I were to endure a real life ramp test, I’d definitely ensure I take a day or two off the bike to prepare for the effort. Basiclly, will Ai factor in potential fatigue and therefore give me a lower ftp? I hope this is a bit clearer. Ps. I am coming to the end of a sweet spot block therefore I’m scheduled a test next week to begin the next block. Many thanks again Theo

[@TrainerRoad]

Fatigue won't impact FTP as a metric of your abilities, and no! More information only makes the AI FTP Detection more accurate.

[@bikerdenzuy]

🚴🇵🇭

[@SimonSez83]

That's something I completely disagree with. Nutrition shouldn't be a sensitive topic. Mental aspect of training should not be taboo. We are athletes. This is what we do with our lives. Everything we do is about improving peaking recovering or maintaining. We should be honest about how we are doing. If someone is concerned just be honest. Am I on track? Am I getting close to my goal? There's only kipchoge and only one Lance. Everyone else is just trying. You are not special. The road will beat you every time. Check your ego.

[@TrainerRoad]

You're very fortunate to not have struggled with that, Simon. If it were that easy, all these athletes wouldn't be writing in to us asking for our perspective on those topics, right?! ;) All the best.