Heat Pumps In Winter ££££!!! - The Running Costs!

You could hate or like heat pumps but the one constant in the comments section is that most are wanting to know how much it has cost us to run over the winter. So here it is!
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[@niccox1738]

Hi EVM - good clear informative video, have to admit to being a bit sceptical of heat pumps for older buildings like ours but the performance of yours looks to be encouragingly better than I would have expected. For gas tariff I gambled on a capped tracker from Octopus and this ended up being quite a bit cheaper than the std capped tariff so comparison with heat pump wouldn’t have looked quite so good in that case. Our gas boiler is nowhere near end of life yet, so have some time to decide which way to jump and hopefully take advantage of technology improvements over the next few years

[@justinstephenson9360]

Thank you for this, I see via my news feed so many stories in the redtop national press along lines of "heat pumps costing more than gas". It is nice to see a proper explanation that shows how misleading those stories are - although as always bad installation or inappropriate systems could make the stories in some cases at least partially factually right

[@richardbarber4444]

Remember that extra insulation also reduces gas costs so it is reasonable to save as much on gas too.

[@davies799]

For heat pump owners: Octopus energy have new tariff just for hp. Tariff called cosy very cost effective used correctly.

[@NZherewecome]

Nicely laid out. But remember the planets point, not the financial point. You are no longer burning stuff.

[@simonbroddle754]

I'm with you 100%, I have a 4kW array currently on a FIT and would love to increase it and add batteries. However, I use a 30 year old gas boiler in a four bed house and our monthly invoices are around £120.00/month which includes standing charge. Just put a new circuit board on the boiler which cost £80.00 and that's all in 30 years.

[@huudielbo728]

Agreed, my last house had the boiler for thirty years and that was second-hand when fitted, no circuit board but a motor driven timer for control. A regular decoke saves you replacing it every five years.

[@SailingAquamarine]

We live in Devon, during the cold snap it didn't actually get that much below zero; but the humidity was such that the heat pumps would freeze up and then steam to themselves every hour (reverse cycle defrost) so yes it worked great for 40 minutes in every hour. Keeping all the doors shut and huddling under the heater is not a working day. We gave up on the heat pumps and installed Woodburners. Electricity bill fell by £100 per month and you have somewhere properly warm to go when it's cold! We found heat pumps are great for 'background' heat, drying clothes and lukewarm baths. But if you actually want to warm up, nothing beats a woodburner.

[@ElectricVehicleMan]

Then there’s something wrong with your heat pump. What did your heat loss calcs say? Your electric bill will have gone down but your wood bill will have gone way up so let’s be clear on this.

[@solentbum]

Could you show the price of the wood you used. The price of logs has increased greatly in the past couple of years.

[@SailingAquamarine]

@Electric Vehicle Man it's not really the price of the wood, more the price of the petrol to run the chainsaw! I did pay a guy £400 to split logs for 2 days mind you, that was summer last year and will last us to the end of this year. If I had to put a monetary value on it, a dumpy bag of wood costs £50 here, avg use is about 6 bags a year in our household... so £300 per year for a 4 bedroom house. We still use the heat pumps, more in the summer as aircon now. In terms of heat loss calculations, I have no idea, don't really care either, the big factor is where I live, like for like, an 8kw wood burner is 1/3 the price of a heat pump. Even oil fired central heating is lower cost for hot water here (roughly 18p per kwh) and there is no mains gas. If you want an example of really cheap living, I built my mother a 1 bedroom separate annexe, she has a small woodburner as her *only* heat source + an immersion heater for water... her electricity usage is 6kwh per day. If you insulate the hell out of a building, it doesn't really matter what you heat it with, but heat pumps, whilst remarkable, are not quite there yet in cool humid weather (which is what we get a lot in the UK!) P.S. yes, we have a lot of solar as well... Useless from October to March, when, of course, you use the most electricity!

[@SailingAquamarine]

@@solentbum £50 a dumpy bag for wood here. We use between 4 and 6 bags a year on a 4 bedroom house.

[@ElectricVehicleMan]

@@SailingAquamarine If you’ve got a heat pump and don’t have any heat loss calcs then that explains why it doesn’t heat your house properly.

[@motchmanjames9347]

Good to hear another positive story about heat pumps, I have had them for years they just work, cost very little to run but then I do have 24kwh usable battery and a 20kw solar system. But even without the solar it's still cheeper than the gas. More important a warm wife is a happy wife....

[@kevinhill1851]

Clear presentation and great statistics - thanks so much for this useful info.

[@kennshearer526]

I’ve had a Mitsubishi Ecodan for 3 years now and yes it does heat my elderly house even in mid-winter - however it is not cheap to run but thanks to another KZbin video I found out that my system was setup by the installer with a fixed flow temperature of 55 degrees whatever the outside temperature. Having now discovered the Curve setting it is now setup to automatically vary the flow temperature depending on the outside temperature. After a few adjustments this works well and running costs have dropped significantly. It’s not perfect because if the system goes off for any reason it resets to the fixed flow temperature.

[@gtd65]

I had an Ecodan system, fitted "free", via Home Energy Scotland. From looking closely at the winter consumption of energy, the costs are higher than the previous kerosene based system but averaged out over the years it's actually not too bad. Monthly electricity bills of roughly £400 in winter is an eye opener! I'll need to try the weather comp setting, to see if it yields better results.

[@carlosli7602]

😊

[@Newit2]

@@gtd65 £90 a week for 7 years is what they get for installing the pump hope yours is better than mine Dynamis Warrington

[@gtd65]

@@Newit2 that's a very tidy profit margin in that case!

[@Newit2]

@@gtd65 You have to sign every year for 7 years to say you are still using it as per contract I never saw no contact so won't sign it,chances are they won't pay them the £90 odd pounds a week.OFGEM it's a joke save you money I was told wrecked my kitchen and put a big ugly lump of scrap on the yard.

[@Haze21449]

As a former refrigriation technician (worked as one for almost 20 years ) in Sweden, I have been suprised every time I have been in the UK, that there where so few heat pumps. You have a milder climate, and your houses are generally less insulated, which means that that the pay-off time for a heat pump is fewer years than an installation in Sweden would be. I'd say that you will brake even somewhere around 4-6 years compared to installing a new gas boiler (meaning if it was time to invest in new heating for the house, picking a HP over gas). After those years you will save money each year... When the 4-way valve reverses, the compressor should be running(!), to efficiently defrost the evaporator. The defrost process gets more frequent the colder it is outside, as the icing of the evaporator occurs more frequent. ...so yes! your HP must also defrost itself "every hour"... it's just physics. But generally the defrost of newer HPs are more efficient than the older "fog makers".

[@Nailnuke]

Where on earth do you get 4 to 6 years payback. He's curently saving a couple of hundred a year ! A heat pump after subsidy is £10,000 fitted. With saving £200 per year that's a 50 year payback time !!! When you add in everything else and his solar system he's prob spent £150,000 thats 750 years to pay back his capital outlay. What's more they only last 20 years, he'll need another 38 heat pumps over the 750 years😂

[@Haze21449]

@@Nailnuke Ok, I hear you. I assume a new gas boiler installation would be somewhere around 50,000 pounds? So compared to the heat pump the difference would in that case be half. I don't know the gas prices in the UK, but in Sweden they are really high, so it makes sense to install a heat pump. I would say heating a 150 square-meter house with natural gas, including hot tap water, would be somewhere around 20,000 pounds in Sweden each year. Doing it with a heat pump, would cost you around 12,000 pounds yearly instead. That is 8,000 pounds each year in difference. So 50 divided by 8 gives us 6,25 years to break even. This i a Swedish example. Like I said, I do't know the UK pricing of gas versus electricity... That is how I calculated...

[@aman113]

@@Haze21449 I don't know what sort of outrageous prices for gas is going on in Sweden but here in UK with a 190 square meter house heated via natural gas/ hot water, I pay around £1700 annually. This is with a target temp of 21c from 7am to 9pm during winter.

[@ascelot]

@@Haze21449 Going to add, not all houses care capable of physically having heat pumps due to lack of external and internal space space.

[@richardbarber4444]

@@Haze21449 Last years costings and prices are shown near the start of this presentation! In the UK gas boilers are much cheaper than heat pumps. £ 1500.00 ---£ 2500.00 At a glance price check! The heat distribution is almost the same.

[@briangriffiths114]

This is an excellent explanatory video and shows how much ASHPs have come on over the years.

[@suewhicker1351]

We have had a heat pump for 11 years, the one we had when we moved in broke 7 years ago, and we had it replaced with a Nibe heat pump. We live in a 2 bedroom eco bungalow with 2 adults, myself and my husband. We use between 20 to 26 kw per day in the house. We bought a meter that you plug into the wall and then plug your appliances into it to see how much energy each appliance uses. It turned out that the heat pump was the culprit of our high energy use. We are in an area with no mains gas, so don't have many options. Our experience of a heat pump is EXPENSIVE even though the thermostat is turned down, the water tank the heat pump heats is turned down and we use our wood stove to increase room temperature in cold weather

[@ElectricVehicleMan]

I would suggest getting a heat geek up to check all the settings. Clearly something not correct.

[@bordersw1239]

Thanks EVM, made me go and check my gas bills! Seems I’ve used 4000 kWh of gas in Dec,Jan,Feb. Not bad for a 4 bed detached house (2003 build) but I did turn our flow temp down this year and reduced our thermostat temps to 18 Deg. Turned it up if family were cold and turned up flow temp for the coldest snaps.

[@Misstree62]

You’ll need to double your radiator size and pipe work and get underfloor to get same heat output not just insulation

[@JakeInUK]

Very interesting video. Our gas boiler has never worked properly since moving in 5 years ago. Only thing that's holding me back from considering the heat pump is the necessary insulation. However, the insulation will be worthwhile whatever heating method I go for.

[@waqasahmed939]

The thing that holds me back is my microbore piping I need that stuff replaced entirely

[@JJ-zg1hh]

Great video. Really useful, thanks. I think this will change a few minds.

[@Charlie-UK]

Air source heat pump mini-split, user in a rural area off the gas grid. Which really matters to me because I'm on a Low income. And it's saving me so much money, it's excellent...

[@stevecraft00]

Far too many companies are throwing these heat pumps in without setting them up properly. This is what's leading to the horror stories and daily mail articles.

[@ElectricVehicleMan]

Maybe they should highlight the rogue traders rather than what is in essence an untrue article about heat pumps themselves.

[@stevecraft00]

@@ElectricVehicleMan you know how lazy the daily mail is though 😂 far easier to just say all heat pumps are crap and the devil's work.

[@adon8672]

​@@stevecraft00 they aren't being lazy, they are deliberately spreading distorted information.

[@jezlawrence720]

Actual enforcement of consumer rights would help also. But mostly, just assuming if the mail and express are saying a thing, the first thing you should do is google the headline + fact check... And not just for heat pumps. For everything. St. Diana did not approve of liars.

[@wolfgangpreier9160]

Daily Mail is about as trustworthy as Pravda.

[@listert2595]

Hi EVM, we’ve had our heat pump for around 3 months now and I honestly can’t believe how efficient it can run. I’m a huge nerd so went overboard with verifying the heat loss calculations, flow rates and pipe sizes etc.. all myself and I’ve got my system running in weather compensation mode which sees me using slightly less than yourself over this period (although we’re a family of two in a similar sized house with no children). One thing I would say about the immersion heater and solar divert, is my heat pump (not sure about yours) can’t heat the hot water past 60c, to go higher it needs an immersion. I’m not saying that I’d ever need water hotter than that, but it does mean I can use the solar divert to just top up the temperature and drag out the available hot water that bit longer. Love the videos, keep it up!

[@ElectricVehicleMan]

This goes up to 75c.

[@listert2595]

@@ElectricVehicleMan I could be wrong, but it may use the immersion heater to achieve the higher tank temperatures. Saying all this, I spent 30 minutes going through the settings on our heat pump and worked out how to get it to efficiently heat the water during the day on solar based on it loosing 10c temperature. So maybe the Eddi is a waste! 😅

[@ElectricVehicleMan]

@@listert2595 No mines switched off and always will be. The heating can go to 75c too.

[@jamesb2059]

Thank you. Helpful, informative, and interesting.

[@davidjowett4690]

In December we used 80 kwh of Electricity & 35 kwh of gas plus 6 sacks of wood for our 5 kwh stove. Think I'll give the the over priced , over complicated Heat Pumps a big swerve !!!

[@EverydayLife621]

Brilliant content - thanks - must admit I wasn't expecting the KWh usage for the heat pump (I was told the the cop in winter was 1.0) - the key is off-peak electricity (i.e. the old economy 7) in winter plus insulation. My electricy company even now offers the old enconmy 7 tarrif, at 13p for 7 hrs (I have 4.5p for 5 hrs - so i use a 0.5-1GW / month for less than £50) - the main key to this is insulation (mine has gone down from an EPC 21,000KW / year to 5,000KW /year ) - we never use day time rate is its far too expensive (45p/unit) - i must admit in december i tricle released 1-2 KWh fan heater (via V2L) to give a base line heat input to the house - clealry only when we were in during the day - but worked well

[@seabream]

The important thing to remember is that COP at a given temperature varies depending on the design. There are tradeoffs for wider temperature ranges so a manufacturer designs different heat pumps for different temperature ranges. The cold climate central air-to-air Mitusbishi I'm using in Canada gets a COP of 1.55 at -25˚C (at which it can still output 70% of its rated max), 2.05 at -15˚C, 2.12 at -8.3˚C, 3.65 at +8.3˚C. There are units that get greater efficiency at the warmer end of heating and cost less, but can't run down to as cold as effectively, whereas mine will operate down to -30˚C before it needs to shut off. We do have supplemental resistance heating in our system as a backup, but we had our system sized such that we haven't needed it even at -25˚C. Note, if sizing for such a wide temperature range, it's a good idea to get an inverter heat pump with an appropriate range of output (ours goes down to 50% output (which is effectively 25% since it's a dual unit installation), but there are ones that go as low as 8%) rather than a simple on-off one, or the system will lose efficiency and lifespan because it'll need to turn on and off too frequently when it's warmer.

[@bbbf09]

Thanks for doing all the beta testing for us and the in depth whiteboard maths Mr EVM. Gives us all a good insight into realities of living with heat pumps. Glad to see it's working out. Might take steps along this route soon myself. Just a pity still so pricey.

[@lancethrust9488]

THIS GUY IS JUST A SPONSORED SHILL , GAS BOILER ARE WAY CHEAPER TO RUN , ELECTRIC HEATING HAS ALWAYS BEEN COSTLY , THE QUESTION IS HOW MANY KILOWATTS IS THE HEATPUMP TO USE AND MOST USE 15KW WHICH IS CRAZY 1KW = 36 PENCE TO RUN FOR 1 HOUR !!!!!

[@jamiefox54]

thanks for doing the videos. mine is installed but now I´m watching these kind of videos to figure out how best to run it

[@industry85]

Excellent video! Definitely room for improvement of the scop. Mines hitting over 5 combined

[@juliandclarke]

Top job EVM. Good explanation as ever. I am on similar levels of efficiency over two years of my ASHP = 373% overall SCOP

[@iareid8255]

julian, do not confuse efficiency with Coefficient of Performance they are different. Simply put no device has an efficency of 100% otherwise perpetual motion would be real.

[@juliandclarke]

@@iareid8255 thank you for the note. We are talking about heat transfer with an ASHP. Thus 1kWh of electricity generates 3.72kWh of heat. This compares to an oil or gas boiler which consume 1kWh of oil/gas for 0.85kWh of heat. So one / the other. Units cancel. 3.72 times the heat produced. I’m sure this is a measure of efficiency

[@iareid8255]

Julian, thank you for the response. you are down grading the figures for oil and gas boilers as modern ones are over the 0.90 mark. However 1 Kwhour of electricty is not the same as 1 Kwh of oil or gas. How many kwhours of gas does it take to produce the 1 Kwatt hour of electrcity that runs the heat pump? That is the whole point, it will be in the order of between 2 and 3. As I said the balancing of the grid is done by gas and the extra demand is met by gas. Not only does gas generation balance the grid they also run to provide inertia and back up reserve. In practice more capacity is running than is strictly necessary to provide balancing capacity. This is inefficeient but seemingly is not a well known fact? As an aside , I complained to the Daily Telegraph about an article of theirs, which they rejected quoting a government department as authority. This government department is making exactly the same mistake and demonstartes an abysmally low level of technical understanding.

[@juliandclarke]

@@iareid8255 morning. 1kWh is 1kWh whether it is gas, electricity or oil. As we introduce more wind, solar, hydro and tide we will use less gas. Whereas a gas boiler will always be on 90% efficient (interestingly 90% is only achieved if you are running the boiler at below 60C in order for the condense). Your point about generation losses is valid. But you are incorrect about efficiency of an ASHP. If we take into account the whole system, then things balance out. But we are not interested in the outside cooling. Hence the 300%+ efficiency

[@iareid8255]

Julian, I'm sorry but I disagree, you say my point is valid then say it doesn't count, really? Renewables will never take over, they can't All are intermittent, even tidal, and all suffer from a lack of inertia, being asynchronous, i.e. uncontrollable, do not contribute VAR or short circuit current levels. Some twenty years ago there was aplan for new muclear expansion but was rejected in favour of medieval technology, i.e. wind that was supercede by abetter technology, nothing has changed the fundamental defects are still there. No device acheives never mind betters 100% effciency. Of course you are concerned about outside temperature of an air heat pump, as ambient decreases the expansion valve closes and the heat output drops. Ground source, properly installed, does not have this characteristic.

[@tr11dge]

Good video mate, very interesting. I'm getting a valiant 7kw ASHP installed in 3ish weeks, I'm hoping that with my 4x9.5 givenergy batts that I'll be able to run my house fully on a full off peak charge with Octopus intelligent, currently @ 10p. My house is a fairly large 5 bedroom house with some underfloor but mostly up sized rads. Keep up the good work. 👍

[@nathanpiper1346]

thats a very expensive way to heat your home, batteries alone won't make pay back even if they do last 20 years, not even including your heat pump install

[@RogerM9]

@@nathanpiper1346 I've concluded much the same based on payback times, but the great unknown is how much value these systems add to a property's value. We have a 15 year old oil fired Worcester Bosch condensing boiler which has cost us about £75 per month to run all through the winter, during which most days the HW is getting a significant boost from the solar via a diverter (Immersun), but the nightmare scenario is waiting until it fails irrevocably in (say) November and being told that the lead time on a new ASHP system is 6 months, so I can see me grasping the nettle at a time of my choosing rather than having it thrust upon me.

[@tr11dge]

I also already had a solar system so that obviously fills the batts through the summer and I have a Tesla EV so all in all I'm all in on Electric, my home was on LPG which was brutally expensive so the change had to come, currently on the cheap tariff I'm effectively getting a full batt charge worth £16 for £4, so it's a daily win of £12 during winter. Also, being in Scotland and the 0% loans from the Scottish govt makes it an easy win, I'll happily spend someone else's money at that rate. 👍👍😸

[@nathanpiper1346]

@@tr11dge ah lpg makes sense, new build & gas central heating here so very negligible and only 5k grant from england, 8kwh solar and 9.5 battery here

[@michaelhorton6881]

@Trevor Mitchell - what is the maximum sustained load that your battery system can deliver?, if the ASHP is pulling 7kw, do you have elec showers, cooker etc that may pull extra kw. My inverter on 20kWh battery can handle 4kw sustained load, so will need additional inverters to manage a heat pump plus a lot more batteries. I am currently using 16 of the 20kWh of the batteries to keep the depth of discharge up to avoid stressing the batteries and reducing lifespan. You have 38 kWh batteries giving you 30kwh usable a 7kWh ASHP, on a very cold day, -10c pull 32khw and then you have the rest of the house usage. I mention this only because I going through a similar path and trying to work out a tipping point, too many batteries/ inverters delivers a comfort level of being able to handle worst case scenario, but means that capacity is under used for the almost all of the year making a difficult ROI. I suspect there is a balance in there where overrun for 10 days a year may be acceptable. I don’t know I have not yet figured it out. But interested in what you decided on.

[@waynemccance9849]

As always - very informative 👍

[@01jvb]

This is very useful, thank you. I didn't realise the latest heat pumps were that efficient.

[@ice4142]

The main thing to take away is that the most important thing is the system design. He replaced a few radiators and insulated so he can run the heat pump at 40degC. Hence the high efficiency. If you don't design your system correctly you won't see the same results.

[@AnonYmous-rw6un]

@@ice4142 Insulation before installation is the mantra.

[@Richardincancale]

My heat pump finally got delivered a couple of weeks ago 😊. I tested the COP from first principles when it was about 8 degrees outside and got around 400%!! I used a contact thermometer to measure the flow and return temperatures to the radiators, the circulator pump has a display of m3/hr it’s delivering and the smart meter to determine the electricity consumption, together with the specific heat capacity of water. It works! It’s magic!

[@ewaf88]

Hi what sort of temp did it keep your home at during severe cold. Thanks

[@Richardincancale]

@@ewaf88 Hi - too soon to say - I live near the sea so don’t have extreme temperatures - rarely sub-zero.

[@ewaf88]

@@Richardincancale Ok thanks

[@mmbb3416]

Thank you for that video. We just got through our first winter with a heatpump installedin early November. We replaced a 90% efficient but elderly gas combi boiler, and from the heat surveys expected a slightly higher running cost, but went ahead for environmental reasons. Pleasantly surprised that compared to our neighbours in identical houses still with gas, energy cost was actually slightly lower.

[@lancethrust9488]

I DOUBT THAT HEAT PUMPS AVERAGE 8KW 36PENCE A KILOWATTS THATS £2.88 AN HOUR THATS £70 FOR 24 HOURS , I RAN MY GAS BOILER ON LOW 24 HOURS ADAY AND IT WAS USING ONLY £1.50 ADAY

[@mmbb3416]

The heatpump does NOT use anything remotely near 8kW an hour - where did you get that figure from? Many factors determine heating cost - I compared mine with identical houses next door My daily average use of electricity over the entire winter (heating, water, cooking, oven, appliances, lights, TV, computers etc etc was 20kWh , half of that on Economy 7 night tariff

[@chriscodes1]

I very much applaud your opening statement on the fact that heat pumps are not a one size fits all solution. Many people and their lifestyle/house would not suit a low temperature setup in the slightest and I think this inability by policy makers and those in the industry to acknowledge that heat pumps absolutely have their place in the industry (I have both a GSHP and ASHP), they are not for every situation. Good on ya

[@bobphillips2188]

Hi. Excellent summary of what I have experienced too. New heat pump (and much larger new radiators aka emitters, they don't radiate heat, as I'm sure you know they convect it!) installed last late July (Virtually free! Part of an incentive last year for ? some people, until the money ran out? I don't know tbh). My electricity consumption was very close to yours, with February being less because, partly, it was a shorter month, but also, here in Wester Ross, rather milder than either Dec or jan, and now March has been a very mixed month, but predominantly very cold, with numbers quite close to Dec and Feb. I don't have a battery or PV, just lecky in, same price per 24 hours ie no off-peak, just about 32p per kWh. I didn't start recording daily data till Feb, but my controller keeps the monthly useage figures in its little head. (I live alone, but I have a 1980s 'room in roof' two bed semi, and I heat most of the house most of the time, and very toasty it is too! I heat water for an hour each day, early afternoon as the 'warmer' the outside air the less lecky it will use. Water set to 50 C)) And this is what I conclude: despite slightly scary consumption for each of Dec 2022 and Jan and March this year (around £200 per month, and £150 for Feb), power use last Sept, Oct and Nov was markkedly less, C£100, with Sept 2022 much less. I know, obviously, when it's less cold, you use less power, right? Correct! BUT here's the thing - low temperature/low-flow-state heating mostly uses rather more power/£ in really cold weather, but compared to gas CH considerably less during temps of 10-15 c, when you still need heat, but clearly less. My heat pump has consistantly produced 2 kWh of heat per 1 kWh of electric used during -5 - +5 c temps, and nearer 3 out for 1 in when it is +10-15 c outside. Conclusion: yes, it is obvious that heat pumps are less efficient at zero c +/- but are still 2:1 in favour of the heat produced. And my house needed about 50% more heat during seriously cold temps compared to, say, at 10 c outdoors (it did this on its own through the weather compensation/heat curve built in to the whole shebang). So the line on the graph is not like a traditional gas boiler, however good it is. Annual consumption looks like it will be, averaged through the year (monthly DD payments same all year), rather less than my old coal/wood system (no mains gas here, and oil or liquid gas are no cheaper than coal, and rather more than mains were it available). It is true that design and commissioning of a system are important, but more so is how you use, ie UNDERSTAND how to use, heat pumps, and what you can do to reduce power consumption with tweaks here and there. The Nay Sayers are probably mainly people who have never used a heat pump, while those who report devastating power consumption are just getting something badly wrong! Massive house = lots of heat needed, leaky and/or old house = same. Insulation is king, but learning to use a heat pump well is almost as important. You can't, mostly, treat it like a gas system, and if people who say their gas/oil costs were a great deal lower than their new heat pump really are getting something badly wrong. Sorry, long ramble! But the details are critical, and where is the devil, usually...

[@tinrobot1746]

Im about to order a heat pump as part of a deep retrofit and have done some basic heat calcs. What would be useful is knowing how thermally efficient your home is currently including heat loss. I am hoping to be running at 300kwh maximum per month on a COP of 3.5 during the winter! Great videos so many thanks.

[@johnmckay1423]

Seriously recommend getting a professional to calculate heat lid for your building and your use. Any decent installer will do that included in the price and it's key to success.

[@bobphillips2188]

A true COP of 3.5 is seriously optimistic (please remember that the way many companies that manufacture heat pumps calculate COP is not the true ratio between how much power you put in and how much hate you get out. The only numbers that matter are kilowatt hours in, kilowatt hours of heat out. I get a ratio of approximately 1:2 at around 0 C outside temp, and near to 1:3 when the outside temperature is above 10-12 C. This is using the weather compensation setting. You are going to need some staggeringly good insulation to achieve 300 kWh a month in the coldest part of the year! But regardless of how draughty or old or otherwise, House might be, the COP numbers will be pretty much exactly the same. If your house needed even 100 kWh of heat to keep it warm for 24 hours, with a COP of two you would be putting in 50 kWh. This ratio is not affected by how draughty your house may or may not be. And even if you had a heat pump that was truly capable of a COP of 3.5, if your house needed 100 kWh per 24 hours that is still something in the region of 30 kWh input, i.e. about £10 a day at current prices. Heat pumps are magic, they are just fridges or air-conditioning units in reverse. First law of thermodynamics is that there is no such thing as a free lunch. There is always a cost.

[@bobphillips2188]

NOT magic, phone is a very bad editor…

[@thomasreed49]

Please do not commit yourself to electricity. Also the cost of a heat pump compared to oil or gas boilers is at least 10 times as much you are able to buy an awful lot of gas or oil with that shortfall. He says he’s saving £100 in December which is the worst month you can buy an oil boiler for £2000 you’re looking at over £15,000 heat source pump. That is a difference of £13,000 I said earlier and gas. He’s also incorporating solar panels with his calculations with the heat pump when you do this the heat pump is less efficient than oil or gas. And let’s not forget the cost of solar panels and installation as well this is madness.

[@tinrobot1746]

@@thomasreed49thanks for the response. Since posting the comment I have done hundreds of hours researching and reading. Lots of FUD out there as you would expect - the fossil fuel industry is facing the same crisis it has with EV cars. Its market is under threat from a superior technology that doesn’t need it planet killing product. I have committed to buying a viessman ASHP. This is going to be used with underfloor heating. I am also adding solar panels and large battery storage. Heat pump costs don’t have be high. Octopus energy are selling them for a couple of thousand. Mine is costing £7.5k including install by one recognised best heating engineers in the country. Solar and batteries are under £10k. When fitted the expectation is that I won’t have an energy bill - the costs over the coldest 4 mths will be offset from solar export during the summer. Clever management of the batteries on my octopus tariff will help this. SSCP will be high so even without OV etc it will still be cheaper than an old gas or worse oil boiler. The biggest problem I have seen this last 6 mths is a huge skills gap. Not enough know how to design and install and many traditional installers don’t appear to want to learn. All above is going in early next year and I will publish the real world results.

[@stephenokon284]

I must admit 12months ago I wasn’t convinced about heat pumps but after watching your video about installing home batteries I’m a total convert. I have 16.5kW usable battery storage with 9x400w solar panels (more to follow) also getting a 7KW Vaillant heat pump installed in May and throwing UFH downstairs in our soon to be built extension as well. Looking forward to the results. Very informative as always.👍🏽😬

[@stuartburns8657]

What is the total discharge output of your storage out of curiosity?

[@edc1569]

Well if you’ve got batteries and solar it makes a lot of sense! I think for many the leap from a 2k boiler to 30k’s worth of kit is a big one!

[@stephenokon284]

@@edc1569 Yes it is a big leap for most, however I have saved a considerable amount of money by installing a lot of it myself(electrician by trade)

[@lancethrust9488]

THOSE BATTERIES CATCH FIRE YOUR TOAST

[@stuartburns8657]

@@lancethrust9488 fire alarms are a thing btw ;)

[@RojCowles]

In the thumbnail I thought this read "Meat pumps in Winter" which would heva been a very different video. Loving these actual factual breakdowns of the costs and performance in all conditions.

[@landyjokey]

Hello EVM,I have exactly the same givenergy battery inverter and solar as yourself (infact your the reason I bought it)but no gas in the village I stay in Ayrshire Scotland. So I have heating oil and a combi boiler .From 15th Nov to 15th Feb £345 in a four bedroom mid terrace with wife myself and two wild late teenagers that want the house like the Bahamas. So it's not for me and I know oil is killing the planet but I make up for it by driving my MG5 which I also bought because of your clips and reviews. Thanks for your time and I hope to see lots more videos on the channel brilliant

[@implodabubble]

I’d love to see your estimated ROI on your current and planned installations. From what I can tell, if you go completely gas free and eliminate the daily charge for a gas supply, the return would be less than a decade.

[@Olivarus238]

Very useful analysis, thank you! We've had a 14kW Midea since last June and certainly saved quite a lot against our previous Oil Boiler. Since late February we've also had Solar (5.74kW) and 28kWh of battery storage and, with Octopus Go (we have an EV) we're now starting to see in the region of 66% savings against winter 2022/3 Electricity usage, plus the savings against oil. Everything is set to avoid exporting to the Grid and we just have a simple Solic200 to pick up any stray electrons for heating hot water. Do you use your Heat Pump to run a weekly Legionella cycle?

[@londonwestman1]

Very good point about the Legionnaires Disease. When we got a walk-in bath for my parents they were saying, I think 55 or 60°C.. It should come automatically with the system, I guess. Do you know how long it has to stay at the higher temp?

[@OH2023-cj9if]

The problem is how much you spent to get a small saving. It's like people saying they saved £10 in a shop but had to spend £100 first. That means they saved 10% but also lost 90%, no one is going to tell you about the loss. I put the money I would have spent in savings accounts and the interest pays 80% of the monthly bill.

[@Olivarus238]

@@OH2023-cj9if Because we were heating with oil, the savings to date suggest that we will payback the cost of the Heat Pump (less the Govt. grant of almost 50%) and the solar in 5-7 years, whilst cutting our emissions.

[@cfcyayaya]

@@Olivarus238 Your system cost must be in the order of £50K+. To payback in 5 years, you must be saving over £10K per year. You could not be spending £10K on energy a year. Something is wrong with the maths.

[@Olivarus238]

@@cfcyayaya 😂 Not even remotely close to £50k!

[@geoffreycoan]

Thanks EVM. We’ve had our LG 2x9kW system since January 2022. Running costs for the same 3 months are about double what yours are, and yes it was properly designed and installed with heat loss calculations. In December I was getting v frustrated with the house not getting that hot and some days using 60-80kW of electricity. Eventually worked out that the return pump had jammed; so rather than two CH pumps in a push and pull configuration I only had one pump operating. Once that was fixed by the installer my consumption dropped to 20kW/day. Makes sense, with a lower flow temperature you need enough water moving round the system for it to heat the house so if you are getting high running costs, check the pumps are set to max speed and have not jammed after being shutoff for the winter. Ours was designed for 55 degrees flow temp, we run it at 50 degrees to be more efficient. Elec usage goes up wth 48 degrees flow temp so sticking to this. Definitely agree about getting it properly designed and then follow the recommendations, we did but for the lounge we didn’t want the v large 2400mm rad they recommended so fitted a 1600mm and the room was noticeably not warm enough. We’ve had it changed now and the difference is startling, it can now get too hot !

[@ElectricVehicleMan]

You could keep it at 50c but lower the heat curve. Mines at 0.55 now.

[@gorgonzolacreates6563]

For more context, we're into our 4th year of ASHP ownership in a 3 bed Georgian semi in the south. For the same period our figure were: Dec; CH 645kWh, HW 185kWH; Jan; 685kWh, HW 170kWh; Feb CH 530kWh HW 160kWh. So they work in old houses too!!!! Who knew...?🙄

[@SDK2006b]

Your setup (solar, home storage battery, EV, overnight elec boost on hot water) and energy tariff is the same as ours but we have a gas boiler vs your heatpump. It's really not worth paying £10k+ for a heat pump, to save a couple of hundred pounds every winter over a gas boiler. Obviously in time the heat pump cost will come down 🤞

[@ElectricVehicleMan]

Cost us £8500 I think. £650 a year savings I predict. Note we needed a new boiler either way so ideal time.

[@computerbob06]

My house would be fine on a smaller heat pump, so I could take the 5k from the government and use that for the heat pump and some radiators! The only problem is, I live in a Victorian terraced house with no wall insulation and even if I fitted some (at more cost) the houses on both sides of me would soak away heat from my house, so that would put the efficiencies down a bit! The other problem would be where to place the kit, there isn't much space in the house for anything let alone all the ancillary stuff - there's the loft, but access is very difficult and the rafters holding everything up are only just about good enough for the roof and ceilings and probably couldn't take much more weight without extra cost for engineering! The costs after the grant would just be too high for me but I'm sure there's plenty of housing out there that it make sense to put a heat pump in!

[@chrischild3667]

​@@computerbob06 Same here. I'd love a heatpump. Plenty of space outside for the external unit. But no space inside for the water tank. Maybe a horizontal ground mounted tank under the stairs?

[@johnafotheringham4266]

@@ElectricVehicleMan in that situation the payback is on the difference between the price you paid, and what you would have had to pay anyway for the gas boiler. So the £8500 “cost” could be considered to be a smaller net cost, giving a slightly faster payback. But of course, you’re also replacing fossil fuel usage by 3 times less energy that is itself only half generated by fossil fuels, so you’ve reduced your carbon footprint for heating by at least a factor of 6, a factor that will only increase as electric generation in the grid goes greener

[@creakybones2407]

@@chrischild3667 I had that very issue. So i built a 1mt sq plant room outside for the tank. i then ran 2 100mm sewage pipes underground to under the bathroom. One to carry Hot Water & Hot central heating and one for cold mains & central heating return.

[@johntisbury]

Are you looking to get an induction hob to replace your gas hob? I cannot recommend them highly enough. As fast as gas to heat up, more controllable than gas and easier to clean. Plus the immediate surrounding areas do not get hot to the touch.

[@CalumMcFarlane]

Yep, induction hobs (if you get a good one) are the business.

[@DRHall-rn3sb]

There is 1 issue coming that people seem to ignore. Stress on the electric grid. EVs, heat pumps, boilers, foundries and less reliance on gas has more stress on the electrical grid which is struggling at the moment. I am all for renewable infrastructure, however it is not moving as fast as it should to keep up with all the changes we humans are making to our way of life. It is a balancing act of change and not as simple as flicking a switch and tomorrow we have made a difference. So your presentation is great at helping people see the future and I love people like you explaining WHY, WHAT and WHEN. Saving £££ is what we all want to do in our right mind. Thanks for the time you put into this way of educating us. It is always best from a real experience than a brochure. Thanks.

[@ElectricVehicleMan]

The grid is fine. National Grid have stated this for years.

[@DRHall-rn3sb]

@@ElectricVehicleMan Please check the figures. With the switch over coming the grid is not ready. 1 gallon of fuel for cars is around 33Kw of energy for an EV (100 miles for an EV in winter), if gas and gasoline is changed to electricity Kw, there is not enough for everyone. We are falling behind the demand. My boy is an electrician, there is no room to have low wind or solar blackouts over long term or a power station going offline during peak hours or in winter (see the national grid warning last year please). I drive an EV and so do you by the name you use. Now when filling up a car you put in 337Kw in a 10 gallon petrol car (1-2 weeks driving). This then multiplied by many 10s of millions of cars will put a high demand on the grid. The grid has been fine, however so many things are changing all at once. This is the main issue, not that the grid has been fine until now, but the loads being required of it in the future. A cable carrying power has to be a certain size or it burns up, our network is designed for to a limit. There was a warning last year about winter blackouts if we had a lot of snow or temperatures stayed low. Your heat pump is using electricity not gas so this is a load on the grid. We have gas fired electric power stations, but it will not be efficient to just say power them up to replace home boilers. I am all for switching but there is not an unlimited supply of electricity. There is a spreadsheet of UK power stations free to download showing power production and type. Power stations also get decommissioned, UK is behind the curve, trust me on this one. Building power stations and farms still takes time. Nuclear = 3.75 pence per Kw is very low cost, but we pay for energy based on gas prices. So nuclear is laughing all the way to the bank as it is the best guarantee and cheapest source of energy. The grid is hoping we all can afford to get batteries and solar and use our loft space to help. I hope we can fulfill the demand that will come. Some EVs will reverse the power flow powering your home. I am not here to argue, I was impressed with your presentation of the heat pump as our gas boiler is now leaking and it has been in use since 2001. Having to replacing it means getting excellent feedback from people using one. I research everything not just this. Off topic : Did do you know everything in the universe is black (no colour as we know it). The only reason it is colour to eyes is that radiation from the sun which is invisible bounces off the surface of an object leaving behind some of the frequencies, thus allowing eyes to turn the light radiation frequency in to a colour that our brains then translate. If we were all colour blind like some people are then a red tomato would be blue or whatever our brain decides that frequency translates to.. Only genetics pass on what that frequency should mean to the brain. The screen you are using to read this is emitting a radiation frequency from each nano cell to produce your image. There is no colour if there is no radiation. NIGHT TIME. Thanks all the best.

[@ElectricVehicleMan]

@@DRHall-rn3sb Please watch this, it’s genuinely interesting. kzbin.info/www/bejne/m5KoZmqqeM2Dh68

[@jmills1549]

Good one evm my plan is log burner and turn meters off next year... If only to limit greed.... But thanks again for your research stats.

[@eviain]

We got around our gas hob by getting one of the portable inductions from appliances direct, works great saved the hassle of ripping out worktops until budget and enthusiasm permits.

[@ColinWatters]

We're using cylinder gas for our hob. A 47kg cylinder lasts at least 18 months so although the cost per kW is higher than mains gas the absolute running cost is OK.

[@StartledPancake]

Even if a heat pump costs a bit more in winter (which as youve very clearly shown, it doesn't) in combination solar for the rest of the year it runs for essentially nothing. Dunno why heatpumps seem to attract the ire of legions of nutcases, but we are saving a packet with ours.

[@markiliff]

Gold dust! Thanks very much for setting it all out

[@stephenabbott904]

Great video Good explanation as ever.

[@MikeGleesonazelectrics]

Great timely video on this, many thanks EVM. We have just had installed by B Gas what looks like a very similar system to you, Vaillant arotherm heatpump and we have solar pv and a small 4kwh storage battery. Only been going a week and we live in devon so missed the coldest weather sadly but early indications are that its running very efficiently and will save money compared to our previous gas condensing combi boiler. . We heat up the hot water tank overnight in the cheap period, octopus Go, as you do and also boost the heating for 2 hrs during this period also, so maybe save a bit of storage electricity to heat the house up first thing as well. We have 2 x evs so tend to use all of our solar generation, very little gets exported to the grid. Even less so now, so it got me thinking to maybe look into upgrading my storage battery.. keep up the good work!

[@MikeGleesonazelectrics]

Btw our house is a 1925 semi with standard cavity wall insulation and d/glazes windows. We have a loft conversion and the roof insulation is 100mm celotex below the tiles..

[@Jaw0lf]

Great information, I have had my ASHP running for one year and one month now. That is heating 171m² of detached house with non functioning cavity insulation. This was replaced after running the heat pump for the year. We used 3333kWh according to the electric meter for the ASHP. In the past month since having the cavity insualtion removed and refilled, house is warmer and I beleieve we are using 25-30% less. So hopefully around 2500kWh to keep home at 18°c during day and reding by 2°c overnight. For the same three months of winter we used 1911kWh. Moved from an LPG supply so I have saved a fortune! Now at 76p per litre, I was using around 1250 litres over the 3 months, so over £950. My annual useage for LPG was around 1500 Litres, so shows the bad 3 months are definately the worst. Calorific value of LPG is 1 litre is 7.08 kWh, so I needed 10,620kWh for heat and hot water over the winter.

[@dogbreath6974]

@jasherrick When you say "non functioning cavity insulation" what are you referring to, is there a way to test it, the reason I ask is I've had my cavity walls filled about 28 years ago.

[@Jaw0lf]

@@dogbreath6974 I have had problems with damp and a large south facing wall that acted like a heat store in the summer, making that side of the house very hot. Many years ago I was approached by a company offering free cavity insulation. They came and tested but said I had a spray in foam that had broken down and they could not refill as the cavity already had been filled. Now moving closer in time, during the winter I had a digital thermometer leaning against an exterior wall of our house. When temps were near freezing that was 4 to 5 degrees C less than when moved a meter into the room. Finally this February Multi Therm Insulation arrived to extract my old insulation and they had shown me on a camera that the cavity only had insulation on the opposite brick less than a cm thick. As they removed the insulation several large voids were found and I was told that what was in there was definitely not doing the job and was as bad as having none.

[@narrowboatlongpod4176]

Whilst I agree that heating most of the house above 18ºC is unnecessary, I do think that most people (me included) would think that 20ºC is much more pleasant for rooms that you are going to sit in or bath/shower in. Really, 21ºC is a very comfortable temperature for sitting around in without having to wear "extra" layers of clothing. We did try keeping the rest of the house at 16ºC but that was just too cold and 17ºC is acceptable. Unused rooms are kept at about 12ºC, bathroom at 21ºC when in use (otherwise set to 18ºC), kitchen 20ºC during the day, lounge up to 21ºC in the evening and bedrooms at 18ºC. Most rooms are set back a bit at night (17ºC or 18ºC). We have a gas boiler with weather compensation.

[@rupe30]

Absolutely, they need to be set with a weather compensation curve. We were told to leave ours at 55 degrees 🤦🏼‍♂️ first year cost a bomb

[@nicholastyrrell]

BRILLIANT EXPLANATION ❤

[@jamesan2517]

If a house insulation was as efficient as required for heat pump, then a gas boiler would run a lot cheaper. I've noticed that most central heating pipes, under the floor, are not insulated. In my previous property I did insulate all the heating pipes, under the floor. This increased the efficiency for heating the rooms. If, for any reason there is a power cut, then no heat pump will operate. As the power requirement for a gas boiler is basically, 100W for pump and approx. 20W for solenoid valve, a 12V leisure battery with inverter would keep central heating going. I'm not convinced that heat pumps are a sustainable alternative for majority of homes.

[@bill_heywood]

Great vid We've just had solar + batteries + EV and it's already a game changer. The next step will be more solar, more batteries and a heat pump

[@UK-Cycling]

Nice video. thanks Best regards Martin

[@richardsixsmith1945]

Thanks for all the great vids & insight. I’m moving into a new build this winter with a heat pump & underfloor heating downstairs, plus unvented cylinder for water and (only 6) solar panels. I’m keen to add more panels and a battery when I can afford it. What confuses me about heat pumps is the cycling/efficiency argument- do you run your heat pump 24/7/365 just ticking along? Or do you just set the temperatures and allow it to switch on and off as it needs? Regarding the installation & heat calcs, obviously I’ll ask the developer about this but do you know of any tell-tale signs or things to look out for that might suggest the heat pump isn’t sized/installed/calibrated correctly?

[@Scarletsb0y]

I'm late to the solar panel and heat pump game, I've got a EV and just ordered my solar system. I be having 14 x 420w panels and starting off with 10khw battery. So this has opened my eyes to get a heat pump next if it works out to be vialbe to my house have to want and see. Thank you for the great information

[@matthewjarrett6647]

No such thing as been late to this game. Technology constantly improving, solar more productive batteries more storage and heat pumps getting more efficient.

[@SimonFranklin-wr9yu]

Andy, another good informative video. What size batteries storage are you going to move to/

[@Richard_Barnes]

I'm not a believer yet by any stretch when considering an existing old house. New build? Then yep, absolutely make it set up the best it can be. The install cost is massive. I'll have to think about something in a few years as my decades old gas boiler won't keep going forever. Great video and info, thx EVM for sharing your costs with us 👍🏻😄

[@philbattye]

I understand your point about the capital cost for an older house. The trouble is that the Daily Mail scare stories have made a lot of installers frightened to undersized systems so the y oversize them - sometimes massively. Also the MCS and the BUS grant people insist on radiator, DHW tank and pipe work upgrades that are often not necessary. The paperwork for the installer also makes them load the quote. Result is a massively inflated quote.

[@Richard_Barnes]

@@philbattye Thx for the info 👍🏻

[@johndoyle4723]

Thanks, yes not for everyone. The payback time still looks very long, and gas prices are historically very high at present, at least 3 times what I was paying a year ago. My house would need gutting to install a system, 350 year old property with massive 24 inch thick walls, solid floors etc. I have solar and battery and an EV, and have used heat pumps in my industrial job, but not yet for my home, as I will get more benefit from more easily installed batteries.

[@daviddouglasuk]

Great video. You certainly demonstrated heat pumps work in winter. The costs work well now the ratio of gas to electricity price is 3, it used to be 6 before the energy crisis, in which case gas would have been much cheaper. Where do you think the prices will stabilize in the future?

[@adrianbotos2819]

Hi EVM, great content, as always. If the leadtime for Vaillant would be less than the actual +12 months, i would order an aroTherm plus, as well. On the other hand, is the Ashp’s circulator pump energy consumption included into the pump’s Cop? I found out recently that for many pumps, they calculate Cop ONLY measuring the compressors consumption (Panasonic, Mitsubishi & others….). Thanks. Adrian

[@ewadge]

Excellent video.

[@johnnyhollis9977]

I bow to other folks that actually have one of these systems and it works for them in their circumstances. However as has been said there are thousands of houses where this system simply will not work or is even possible to install. A row of Coronation Street style houses would be a good example! The government seem to think that this is the magic bullet for everybody in the near future but it simply isn't for many. Banning gas boiler sales in the near future will become a nightmare for an awful lot of people.

[@lindsaymac911]

Excellent Video, well explained to like myself who has limited knowledge on the subject. 1 question I had was the hot water at 50°C, I thought minimum was 60° for Legionella Bacteria.

[@lookoutleo]

have a Fujitsu air to air mini split air conditioner and it's changed the way I heat my house completely . I used to burn oil all the time but now I can turn this heatpump on from my phone app. Means I come home to a warm house and it being air to air it only takes 10 mins from turning on to being warm in the house. I find if I run it for 6 hours it uses 2kwh of electricity . During that cold spell (-3c) it used slightly more 2kwh in 5 hours but that to me is realy efficient and installation was very easy with it just being a unit at roof height inside and ground mounted outside unit

[@StartledPancake]

Yeah we have a new Mitsubishi mini split, its incredibly efficient down to about -12. Air to air system are so much simpler, more efficient and much cheaper to install, the only issue is a lack of air distributions systems here in Europe. I understand they are much more popular in the US.

[@lookoutleo]

@@StartledPancake good name Mr pancake :) yes I find it amazing most people put up with storage heaters when these were available all along

[@davekirk100]

Get an LPG conversion for your hob, and use bottle gas. We used one for years in a house with oil fired central heating. The comversion is only a few quid, and just using a hob the bottles last ages

[@arenjay3278]

My brother inlaws heatpump is only used in summer and is mostly free. He uses in winter geothermal heating which costs only a little E to run the pumps. In summer the system runs backwards pumping the heat back into the ground and making central AC. Have you considered installing geothermal to heat your radiators? For a bigger battery you could park and use a nissan leaf or older kia soul ev. Anything chademo and instead of an 8kWh battery have 24 up to 77 kWh battery with a New Ioniq 5 or 6 with bidirectional charging. Either of these car based batteries may require switching to a DC charger rather than AC system. The Chademo system lets you charge discharge through the Chademo system with correct hardware. The Ioniq lets you DC charge with a 10 to 20 kW DCFC charger while using the onboard AC charger to bidirectional to your home. Unless you take it apart.

[@stuartlark6441]

Brilliant information, I'm trying to convince a friend of mine to get solar, batteries and a heat pump and he just keeps quoting Daily Mail nonsense, I'll be sending him the link to this video. Also if you had to start from scratch what would todays cost be for your set up and with the figures you have, what would be the pay back period? This would be another great video because it's the one question I get asked by nearly everyone and it would be great to see you lay it all out because there's so much FUD out there and it confuses and puts a lot of people off. Love the show even from all the way over here in Cape Verde trying to convince my mate back there in Newcastle to get this done at his place. Help me make the argument. Cheers

[@edc1569]

You know it all be your fault when he complains about the “radiators not being hot enough”, not worth the agro!

[@clivehaynes2183]

I Good video and I was a little anti heat pumps because of their reverse efficiency and still consider the best form of heat pump is ground sourced not air but was surprised with the efficiency of your system.

[@Angloman516]

A very positive video. Having said that It would be useful to know something of the total package supply price together with supportive battery / solar panels and installation costs. That is probably the biggest negative for heat pumps.

[@ElectricVehicleMan]

As said in the vid, it's all in the playlist in previous videos.

[@teanau11]

Thanks for the video I think I better keep my cheap boiler, powerful and cheap to run

[@tpottrell]

I did look into an ASHP last year under the gov't grants, but because my property has an older warm air boiler/heating system (dry system with no radiators) the price was prohibitive vs a traditional wet system... £20k vs £5k... I spent £8k on a 4kw solar/5kw battery setup with a diverter. Being mid-terrace doesnt help either!

[@solentbum]

I have just dug out my Electricity bills for the three winter months which include three EVs on charge. Dec, £734. minus 1 car £666 net. Jan £612 minus 1 car £612 net, Feb £520 minus 1 car £434 net. Detached house 11x10 mtrs with open loft kept to 21C. Garage 10x7 kept at 18c. 2 dishwashers most nights 2 washing machines most nights. All heating ASHP. Electricity from Ecotricity at 43p daytime 20p night time 7 Hours. (prices do not include Government bribe) House was built with high levels of insulation and underfloor heating, garage has air to air heating.

[@witsend236]

Glad you're enjoying your heat pump. Can I pull you up on two points? 1. The average installation cost is between 7 to 16k for an installation (in the UK). These costs need to be factored in to your savings, because if you installed at 10k and save £100 per month for 6 months of the year that you need heating, it will take 16 plus years for the pump to pay you back. 2. As you said a few times in your first vid, the tech people installed 4, 5 years ago is very different today, so that means people who invested 5 years ago and paid 10k now have a system that's less efficient and over time will cost them more, so they now need to spend another xxxx to update to the tech you have got. This would need to be financed. It could also be a repeatable exercise every 5 years as the tech improves, and service costs make your system obsolete forcing you to upgrade. So your figures are not accurately showing the true cost of ownership. As for the 5k grant, there is only a certain number per year who can apply for this and once the numbers are met you either have to wait until next year or pay the full cost. One final point, many people with gas will be on contract. They would need to continue paying for gas until their contract ends or buy themselves out early. All these costs need to be considered.

[@vandit83]

Thanks for the info. Getting 5kw Vaillant system installed this year, along with solar and GivEnergy 9.5kwh battery. Not cheap but £10k grant is helping with 0% loan on the remainder. Will be getting gas meter removed as well. Quite excited to geek out on data.

[@DahouiM]

Great but how did you get £10k grant. I thought it’s only £5k

[@vandit83]

@@DahouiM in Scotland it’s £7500 and if you take solar and battery you get an extra £1250 for each renewable you take on so £10k for all 3.

[@DahouiM]

@@vandit83 lucky you. We should all move to Scotland. Enjoy

[@vandit83]

@@DahouiM ha yeah. We get the EV infrastructure right too. It’s mostly on one network! England is a mess!

[@patrickfaleur6346]

These figures seem a long way from mine. I have a 4 bed 1980s detached house with reasonable insulation. With our thermostat set to 20 our gas bill for Dec-22 to Feb-23 was nearly £1200 and electricity £800 on Flexible Octopus. Also we have 18 solar panels and a 10kw battery. However during those months the solar generated was minimal, but we did charge the battery up at night! My DD is currently £500 pm. We have a heat pump installed but not yet connected or commissioned. Hopefully this will save us money!

[@edc1569]

I have a 3 bed 1980s semi detached, heat it with gas, tho use electric rad overnight on off peak electric, spent £120 a month on gas this winter on the price cap. It’s hard making comparisons!

[@EddieGriffith2802]

Quick back of the envelope calculation for us it would be nearly twice as expensive to switch to a heat pump system than sticking with our gas boiler in terms of energy costs. We don't have solar and don't have battery storage. We did, however, manage to get lucky and locked in to a 3 year deal with EDF for our gas at the perfect time just before the Ukrainian situation kicked off and the energy prices rocketed in to the stratosphere! So our gas is relatively cheap (for the time being).

[@humphreybradley3060]

Excellent video. We’ve been on Octopus Tesla Energy Plan since July, sadly this has now been withdrawn. Octopus has recently announced Flux which would suit us. Interested to see the White Board calculations comparing various ToU tariffs?

[@MD-kv2gc]

Thanks for the video. How much for depreciation of the solar and battery and all the trimmings? How much without that stuff? (what is expected lifespan of that kit?)

[@lawrencetaylor4101]

Merci beaucoup.

[@johnrush3596]

Great video. Got to agree re solar diverters . Once you have a battery installed, it is better to either use the battery storage to heat things assuming you get the battery charged using solar. Watch the round trip efficiency of the battery, mine runs at a 15% for the charge discharge cycle, so it is better to try and heat things when the solar is providing.

[@TC-V8]

15% sounds a lot? That's for one charge and dicharge? So you put in 1kWh - and get 0.85kWh out?

[@johnafotheringham4266]

If you’re losing 15% on the cycle, presumably that is lost as heat somewhere, so maybe that heat helps a little? I guess it will depend on where the loss occurs

[@ElectricVehicleMan]

Depends on your inverter. A hybrid inverter is about 1-2% efficient going into the battery. DC panels, DC battery. I think it’s 7% coming out into an AC house.

[@johnrush3596]

@@TC-V8 it works out that way. The temperature of the batteries makes a big difference, power is lost in the charge and discharge process

[@edc1569]

AC/AC systems can be that inefficient. Hybrid solar inverters do a lot better, tho have the similar performance if you’re charging them up using off Peak electric

[@clarkfinlay78]

To some extent I understand about the eddi and the immersion heater in the tank but I think the issue is about having something that automatically uses excess solar and converts it to heat. If you assume that on some days in the winter you will have a cold bright and sunny day due to high pressure you will potentially generate a decent amount of solar through the day. If the hot water was heated the night before (but some used early morning) the battery charged and the heat pump running to keep the radiators warm. If there is excess solar at that point is the heat pump able to know that and use more electric if not an iboost or eddi would make sense you would be able to use the excess to add more heat to the water tank that could kill off any bacteria as well

[@ElectricVehicleMan]

Even on a sunny winters day (which is shorter) you’d have to pass 8-10kWh for normal house usage, then say an 8 kWh battery to fill, then there’s the winter heat pump. Minimum of say 10kWh on top when cold. 26-28kWh generation won’t happen in winter without a huge array. Even if it did, we’re looking at spending £600+ for a few days a year at best. I’d rather put that towards another battery.

[@gonzo_the_great1675]

I've done some pretty basic calculations on the minimum winter average SCOPs required to justify moving to a heat pump. For the environmental equivilent of burning gas in s CCGT power station vs a good domestic gas CH system. You need a min SCOP of 1.63. (or 1.5 compated with a non-condensing gas CH boiler.) For cost, I am assuming a standard capped tariff where electricity is 4x the cost of gas, per kWhr (late 2023 prices). And comparing as above. For this you need a minimum SCOP of 3.6 (3.2 if comparing with a non-condensing boiler.) So given the figures reported here.... Environmentally it makes good sense. Cost wise, about par. People are probably only going to move if cheap electricity tariffs are available, or the gas prices get jacked up.

[@ElectricVehicleMan]

Electric isn’t 4x the cost.

[@gonzo_the_great1675]

@@ElectricVehicleMan I'm just talking about the cost per kWhr of electricity vs gas. The current UK price cap (Dec 23) is about 28p vs 7p. (Not having an EV, I don't have access to the reduced rate tariffs.) So for a heat pump to have cost parity with a 90% efficient gas boiler, it would need to be running at a COP of 3.6

[@davideyres955]

Interesting stuff. I have to say I’m interested in the rack mount batteries. I like the ability to add battery capacity as thing like panel efficiencies increase or you get to add panels. We do seem to be a bit behind the USA in the options we have. It’s interesting watching will prowes and Dave Potts on their channels although it concerns me how much the USA is aloud to do electrical wise rather than getting a qualified sparky in. If you are working out cost you should include the capital cost of the heat pump and boiler and the servicing costs.

[@ElectricVehicleMan]

Not when comparing fuel costs. That’s a different video entirely as install costs massively vary.

[@egold33311]

Octopus go will increase when the price increases as they designed the tariff based on that, the savings look great but you have to consider the batteries cost into it so gets complicated further

[@limyrob1383]

The problems I see are 1) the time to repay the savings. I need to see a return in around 5 years to make it worthwhile, otherwise the savings are too far in the future. This is more about up-front costs, they have to come down a lot. 2) the capacity of the National Grid, every heat pump moves 10-20kwh from gas to electrical and that is OK for the first few houses on a substation, but add a few EVs too and its soon overloaded. That means a lot of investment in electrical infrastructure and higher electrical bills to pay for it. This could really undermine the savings. One of the benefits of having a gas supply as well as an electrical one is a element of energy security and redundancy.

[@rodden1953]

I live alone so ive got rid of my gas hop and oven and got myself a portable induction plate , i have sola and a powerwall

[@salan3]

Interesting video thank you. I would like heat pumps but I could not afford the cost (up front cost) as disabled and unable to work, so income is very restricted. What I did find interesting was that I always thought our gas usage was very high but compared to your figures (ok we ae in Cheshire and it wasn't so cold etc etc) the usage was comparable. i.e lower then yours but in the same ball park. Like solar and battery banks, its people like me who could benefit the most from it yet we are the least likely to afford it.

[@showme360]

Well I have to say our 2 year old system was not far off the same as yours in terms of results. Our system replaced an old Grant Combi oil burner which heated the house and gave the hot in our 1963 detached 3 bedroom bungalow. Where we now have a 4kw solar array and a 5.5kw Hybrid Inverter linked to a 32kWh lithium battery bank. Our aim is to be able to survive a three day black out in winter. We have two Nissan Leaf's both old a 2011 and a 2015 the later runs our ASHP all day long on cheap over night energy, thanks to a Setec 6kw unit. But when we run out in December on the coldest days, rather than run the ASHP on 43p per kWh day time tarrif, we drove the car down to Tesco's and charged up at 28p and drove the car back to run the rest of the day on this energy. What these types of system do for you as a home owner is give you freedom of choice, on where to obtain your energy. Gas boilers once installed can't offer you that choice!! Our solar array was acheiving over these three months just over 100kWh a month, which is not to be sniffed at! For those who are still sceptics, do you have a fridge? if yes then you have the basic of a ASHP! GO FIGURE!!!!!!!!!

[@kallyrocks]

Hi EVM, I am planning to get an ASHP but there are a lot out there! Which one would you recommend Samsung, Harnitek, Vaillant , Mitsubishi eco Dan or Daikin? I am looking for a heat pump which can be used for heating and cooling and my house will need a 12kw. Thanks

[@jeremylister89]

Depends on your house. Unlike a gas boiler, installation and suitability is highly technical and prohibitively expensive for many. It's a huge risk.

[@jezlawrence720]

Something i learned this year: you ge battery allows you to lower its max discharge. This is super useful on cloudy days: lower ypur discharge to base load + a bit. When your heat pump or other high energy item spikes, itll take from grid, but not suck a big chunk out the battery. When its ticking away itll trickle a little bit from the grid. I have found doing this, to extend the battery cover into the afternoon/evening on dark days, definitely pulled in less from the grid during the non cheap go period than having the battery stop entirely and end up pulling base load *and* spikes for the rest of the day. I have not done the man maths to work out optimal levels etc., And i cannot quite work out logically *why* its helped but I have checked the graphs and bills, it definitely *has* helped. And its probably better for the battery health to not have it working as hard to cover big draws.

[@jezlawrence720]

Even so: I'm still intending to save up for a bigger battery, for all the reasons you've said. The bigger battery you can afford, the more savings you make and the more you can avoid drawing from the grid except when you choose to.

[@jezlawrence720]

I have to learn to write shorter comments lol. In summary I've found that with my clearly undersized-for-winter 9kw battery, allowing spikes to draw from the grid by limiting my battery's discharge down to about 1kw during dark days so that the battery covers the baseload for longer is far better on the finances Vs just letting higher draw devices suck the battery dry when they spike and then having to run baseload and spikes from the grid for the rest of the day. I don't really know why, I'm not smart enough to puzzle it out so if someone has any ideas I'm all ears!

[@paulrbutcher]

Good video I have been looking at heat pumps and come to the conclusion they will save me money but the headache is which one and who to fit it.. I have had a few quotes and spoken to sales men but everyone recommends the Octopus tariffs so what about the Daikin Heat pump from Octopus but I cant find any reviews on the work they do if they do a good job... Regards Paul

[@davaldo1]

Great work, sir. I am basically following your whole setup! You showed how much the worst day was but can you confirm what the givenergy app shows during the day for kwh usage at any given moment? Trying to work out if i need to upgrade my inverter from my battery storage

[@MoElrawi]

Thank you EVM nice costing analysis. But the critical question still remains. How efficient is this AHP compared to gas heating? Are we going to save money but spend cold winter days under a blanket or use extra heating devices?

[@datahopa]

What size battery are you getting soon? I've got 24kWh and wondered how it will cope, getting a heat pump installed in a few weeks time. Thanks.

[@squeaky_honda]

Air-to-air HP (aka AC) should be even more efficient, due to the lower difference between outdoor and indoor temperatures by about 20-30C. It's also drastically cheaper to install: £1500-2500 total. There are multi-split heat-pumps that can cover hot-water and air-to-air efficiently. To cover your use with solar, you need a 20kW install, which is about 100 square meters. A 10kW solar install would produce 320kWh/month in December and 1150kWh/month at peak in summer.

[@celinehynes3336]

What was cost and life expectancy of the HP? What if there aren't any grants when it dies? Could you say more about your lifestyle? Are you at home all day with the HP on, so it achieves max efficiency? What if someone was out at work all day and just needed evening heat? How do you manage without instant hot water? What if you had a house full of teenagers needing baths etc?

[@quilmore]

new to this channel, loving it, just curious about your hot water cylinder is heated and how you could calculate its costs, is it heated using the HP on a different setting for some hours? how can did you manage that?