Heat treat BETTER! - We improved our quenching setup

UPDATE 9 months later: Use a sealant without copper. The system works great, but we had a little corrosion on the plate that we had to clean off. If you want more detailed info, go to our more recent video "Our Water-cooled Quench Plates Clogged Up!"
Link here: • Our Watercooled Quench...
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We've used quenching plates as part of our heat treating process for a long time, but the more you use them, the hotter they get. This was so much of a problem for us, that we decided to add some channels to the plates for water to flow through. In this video, we show you how we did it, explain why, and install the new system.
Enjoy your meat and potatoes for the week!
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Products: www.grimsmokniv...
John Grimsmo Knives Instagram: / johngrimsmoknives
Erik Grimsmo Instagram: / erik_grimsmoknives
Angelo Fisher Instagram: / afisherknives
Erin Kelly Instagram: / producingerin
Music from: www.epidemicso...
Song: Slow Hands (Instrumental Version) - Alexander Bergil

[@jimsvideos7201]

Computer nerds: Water-cooled computer CNC nerds: Water-cooled servos Grimsmo: Water-cooled *arbor press.*

[@jaypierson5955]

8:05 and that's what keeps me in business. #vacuumchuck

[@donaldaudi]

Why not cut a oring groove = no goop

[@jzarfos]

Perhaps because custom gaskets are expensive and really only necessary when you're dealing with much higher pressures.

[@johnalexander2349]

Shouldn't that be spring pressed, lever released? Repeatable pressure, less work.

[@jmolesworth]

I wish that you tried to quench something, to show it working and the change in temperature.

[@jdholbrook33]

Plates are screaming for thermal paste, I can hear them all the way down here in Texas. Gelid is the best non metalic (gallium based and will eat aluminum). Available at newegg.com

[@vettepicking]

I use anti seize .

[@Hirudin]

There's no way that stuff will hold up to 1800° F, is there?

[@vettepicking]

@@Hirudin yes its made for it. Plus that water cooling

[@Espressoforge]

Yes I was thinking the same, I have made a custom lever espresso machine, and bolting the group to an aluminum plate, lapping flat and thermal paste was needed for efficient thermal transfer. Computer guys got this figured out so I agree, use CPU thermal paste!

[@Hirudin]

@@vettepicking Holy cow, that's pretty incredible! I was actually asking about the CPU thermal interface material (sorry, I should have tagged James) but maybe you were saying both can stand up to such high heat. (edit - A quick look at the Gelid website shows that Gelid GC-Extreme has an operating range of -45º to 180º C (which is -49º - 356º F). I didn't see any temp specs for their other formulations.)

[@aryesegal1988]

BS"D Awesome! Two requests, if I may: 1. Please do a follow up video and share with us how the new process works. 2. What is the name of the music track you're using? You referenced us to epidemicsound, but we need to know the name of the track to search for. Thanks, and keep up the great work! :)

[@JohnGrimsmo]

Erin here! It's Slow Hands (Instrumental Version) - Alexander Bergil

[@Dakakeisalie]

Copper gasket + aluminum plate? Asking for galvanic corrosion

[@TheStabbyCyclist]

It's not pure copper. It's high-temp copper RTV silicone and Permatex claims that it's non-corrosive. I don't disagree with you though. Doesn't seem ideal for long term use, and it would probably be a good idea to use distilled water in that system to decrease the electrolytic capability of the liquid.

[@Zamerick13]

@@TheStabbyCyclist Even if it did corrode, its a pretty cheap thing for them to make again. Its not like with computer water cooling parts where the end user really cant repair or remake them.

[@EZ_shop]

Hey John, a little bit of electrical heat shrink tube on the pair of lower pins might take up the gap, and stop the annoying wiggling of the bottom plate. Just keep adding tube and heat shrink it until it fits perfectly. Ciao, Marco.

[@bigboy101011]

A few suggestions... 1. You may want to add some thermal grease between the contact plate and the chiller. The thermal grease will make up for any tooling marks or imperfections. You don't need much, just a thin film should do. 2. It looks like you have the chillers connected in parallel, you may want to change that. If theyre in parallel the flow may prefer one side over the other. Either add a second pump or put them in series. 3. To increase the repeatability of the quench, you may want to add a weight to the end of the press handle. 4. To increase the repeatability or the quench, you may want to add a timer to the setup. I'd start with just a kitchen timer and see how it goes.

[@leonchekk9]

Yes great suggestions, I was also sceptical about connection made in parallel. I was also thinking about water cooler, it doesen't take that much, just few fans and a cooler and its done.

[@itsallsimplefacts]

Machining tool marks are not an issue. The knives are not soft enough to take that level of impression. They are even still in the foil bags. Overall flatness is what is critical. The parallel connection isn't going to be a problem. The flows will be more or less equal unless there is a significant obstruction in one of the plates. Series would be worse because one plate would only be getting pre heated water and that may cause uneven thermal growth. We're talking 1/1000's here but John did this to keep the blades flats to ease polishing so that would be significant. They are not necessarily pressing them flat. Just providing a flat surface for it to keep its form while cooling. The aluminum sucks to heat up. Force then may not be a critical variable in the process but might we worth looking into if they still have a bow after this process

[@markg8972]

throw some ice in the bucket to keep it cool:D

[@princecustoms5327]

Haha cool, and I thought I was being a bit nuts when I was facing my quench plates. Glad I'm not the only one.

[@FoxMacLeod2501]

I would suggest Permatex's own High-Temp Anaerobic Flange Sealant (US part # 51031) for this job, next time you have to re-seal. It's much easier to clean up, and only cures in the absence of oxygen; so it won't dry until you bolt the plates together. As an auto mechanic, I find it's most often used specifically for sealing machined-flat aluminum parts, such as between the halves of Subaru engine blocks. It's more of a gooey gel, and is way less of a hassle to scrape away if you need to clean it off and re-do a seal.

[@macmaniacal]

I see some improvements to be made. - Create a steel wear plate, where the blade would sit, like an automotive aluminum flywheel, then use thermal paste between. It'd keep it flatter as well, less need to resurface. (unless the thermal transfer isn't fast enough) Bolting in the middle of the assembly will also keep it flatter. - Cut an "o-ring groove" around the perimeter. Still use silicone though. Its common practice with some aluminum oil pans. It'd also force you to allow a larger perimeter for sealing. - Resurface after all this is done, or after it reached temp, if you notice any difference after it heats. For the clamping, I would make it a two piece. For the upper, clamp it like a split shaft coupling. Give some space to place a hole in the center so you can bolt straight down to the bottom bracket. Allow the bolt to bottom out to allow the top assembly to move.

[@robertdouglas4293]

I'm just a kid, perhaps silly question on my part, how do you monitor rate of cooling as far as consistency goes over repeated use, and how accurate do you figure, that consistency maintains itself during the life of that cool device, seems obvious the way you explain it, measurements can be a bitch if you have OCD, Really appreciate how you guys think, You guys are awesome. I'm just thinking in terms of variables over time, probably not a proper question on my part, your devices for measurement being as accurate as they are.

[@FabFunty]

On this "water cooled arbor press" I was expecting a DR..Oh wait, it already has one. 🤣

[@luispaz2946]

Great Job ! Love ingenuity at play. And cool shirt btw. ;)

[@brockstravels7586]

If your bucket of water gets too hot, consider going to your auto parts store and getting a transmission cooler, mount a computer fan or two to it and send the hot return line through the cooler.

[@mrlurkermurker]

surprised that you didnt use big orings for them and machine oring grooves

[@MrLiamCooley]

Tape one end of the hose in the bucket away from the other. If they are too close you wont get good flow.

[@aschnaub1]

Drill a hole thru the spindle of the press and put a roll pin smaller than the hole

[@Agape1992]

Your videos are always a bright spot in my days.

[@dingus153]

Please use some thermal paste. Please.

[@unpopular_mechanics]

You could also add a pneumatic cylinder to the arbor press or build a custom press based around an air cylinder. You can then control the cylinder with a foot pedal so both hands are free. You can have it automatically retract when you remove your foot from the pedal.

Well, I will not be suprised if this evolves to some kind of pneumatic press controlled by a arduino (or similar) that make sure all blades are quenched exactly equal. Also that would make it possible to control the temperature of the plates with temp-sensors and a bit more advanced coolingsystem

[@hintzecustomknives]

Would you be willing to sell the old controller for your evenheat? Ive got the older controller and that would be a step up for me.

[@anchorbait6662]

Overchill overkill

[@knickly]

Might be cheaper to just buy Mic-6 or ATP-5 tooling plate rather than milling flat, don't you think?

[@JCisHere778]

I'm not sure how Berry does it exacly. But a foot pedal and a counterwight/ spring might make this job easyer / safer.

[@wmcutlery54]

Great idea😁

[@adriannuske]

Hi John. Great work on that cooling channels! never expected any less :D. Although, you'll improve the heat exchange efficiency by roughing up the inner surface of the circuit. In the olden days, they used to leave the cast iron blocks of the engines, outside on the dirt. Bare under the elements, to rust in the inner water circuit and thus gain more "grip". This causes not only more contact surface, but a bit more contact pressure. All my respect and admiration. Keep it up!

[@austinmabry8462]

Drill an oversized hole all the way through the press ram, then drive a roll pin through it so that it can 'float' without ever being able to fall off. Also, if heat becomes an issue, it should be pretty easy to install a simple PC water cooling radiator, or the like, with fans that can either be run off a thermostat, or just put 'em on a switch and run the fans any time you're doing "quenching".

[@Digger927]

Cool, nice job John. To make the bucket stay cooler, you could always throw some aluminum 1" rods in the bucket and let them stick out the top for an additional heat sink.

[@TheQuadrillionaire]

Ugh! John! You should have just machined a groove for an o ring seal in the plate. No RTV to clean off and reapply every time you've got to switch plates.

[@rjarois]

nice set-up

[@jacksat2252]

Hi ,John. Maybe for version 2 , finer but more water channels = more surface contact =better heat transition =better cooling, and use a cooling liquid that prevents corrosion and a bad smell overtime.

[@evgenyivakhnik7344]

Seemse, that you need some kind of pivot pins, to avoid vertical vobble. Or just put 2 blades in press at one cycle)

[@njfreeman1988]

Hi John you may want to consider using a water-less coolant (Evans Coolant) in the future if you start to have corrosion issues. Keep up the good work mate.

[@TheGreatBooger]

This is genius. Way better than what I came up with for 154cm plate quenching.

[@robertdouglas4293]

Just joking about being a kid, I'm old, but young as not being in your particular field, still got all my fingers though.

[@mattinkel7342]

Clever idea, and really nicely made .. I love building tools :) you could throw a flow meter in there to give you a visual on water movement and if its still warming more than you want fan assited pc radiators. But great job guys

[@jimmygrey6848]

Nice idea, I was thinking of something similar for my grinder platen.

[@Daniel-vq9zb]

Why not drill the water lines like in a mold, that way no silicone, just plugs.

[@ultimind]

Killer setup you made there. Also, where did that Shiro tshirt come from!?

[@wally626v_m7]

Traditional method to load flats is to use a central spherical bearing. Springs can keep the lower plate against the bearing so it raises with the loading ram.

[@adamtoczek]

Put o-rings on those two positioning pins (lower plate), they will reduce wiggling.

[@chaz65]

Gas line tubing on the 2 pin of the indexing for the lower plate, could get rid of the wiggle

[@abdonafea4911]

Pleased man I want to go Canda and work with you. I from Egypt Cairo

[@SergejKolmogorov]

Genius stuff! =) What will be if you polish it to the mirror?

[@paintballpro830]

Put your return water on top of bucket and your source water on the bottom. You had the right next to each other.

[@maesto]

If that bucket gets to hot you could get one of those cheap water coolers used for CO2 lasers.

[@gavinreddig3969]

This is with out a doubt the smartest invention in knife making in years

[@CharlesSnyder]

Needs 12v peltier cooling. No more need for water.

[@RGS_23]

maybe it would be a good idea to put an O-ring. Que bueno!!!

[@m.s.l.7746]

Is there really that much parallel surface area on your blades?

[@TomZelickman]

Looks like it came out great! I run into the same bowing issue on the flat plastic parts that I make. Looks like you got it sorted quickly enough though. Can't wait to see how they do in action! I wonder what would happen if you dropped some dry ice in the water to super cool it... Hope all is well! - Tom Z

[@bigbird2100]

A rotatry top plate set up using a raspberry pi saunders style

[@derekstang7045]

Now that is bad ass. Golf clap...

[@GrussimoGarage]

Up next: adding a radiator......

[@daveycodfish5584]

Dude...thats so....cool! 😉

[@mannycalavera121]

Pretty cool project.

[@robertdouglas4293]

A simple alignment collar? Infrared works good to register temp, ?

[@davidjereb]

Infrared definitely doesn't work on shiny aluminium.

[@robertdouglas4293]

@@davidjereb Thanks

[@slavaboggu]

nice T-shirt

[@picnicsinspace198]

sweet

[@Fischer977]

Hi John. 1.make 4 small , injection mold like guiding pins so the plates will always close parallel. 2.for sealing ,use rubber string (comes in roles) and machine a ball endmill chanel for it. 3.for the cooling, the bucket is not enough! You'll see that the water become hot. You need a small chiler and a pump to circulate water.

[@Hirudin]

They're trying to keep it room temperature, right? Maybe they've got a Volvo radiator lying around that could be plumbed in.

[@Fischer977]

@@Hirudin maybe....i can't tell. Im not swedish

[@nickmartin1688]

+1 for the radiator! I tried a car radiator for my TIG cooler but ended up using a smaller oil radiator as they are so much easier to plumb. Works great with an AC fan behind it.

[@Fischer977]

@@nickmartin1688 is the installation complicate?

[@nickmartin1688]

For car radiators, it can be; the inlets are much larger then the tube shown here, so you have to make plastic plugs to reduce their size and epoxy them in and tap the plugs for a fitting. They are probably overkill for this application unless you are doing many blades at once in a hot environment. Oil coolers are really cheap on eBay and have inlets around 5/8" so you can use matching diameter tube and hose clamps. You can always gang them up if you need more cooling. I found that the new oil cooler was cheaper than a used car radiator - YMMV.

[@Fischer977]

It shouldn't be made of aluminum

[@jimmygrey6848]

Most quench plates are, what would you use instead?

[@Fischer977]

@@jimmygrey6848 any type of steel that is way softer than the parts steel. Steel can tolerate extreme heat and press force better than aluminium. When its got damaged you simply stick it to the surface grinder magnet and shave off a layer

[@jimmygrey6848]

@@Fischer977 Yeah but the thermal conductivity of aluminium is a lot higher than steel, that's why it's widely used for heat sinks. It doesn't need to tolerate extreme heat and press force, it needs to draw heat away from the blade quickly, as said in the video not much pressure is put on the plates.

[@alpk84]

Maybe you already say this, but why dont quench in hot oil? Thanks!

[@belstain]

The aluminum plates will suck the heat out almost as fast as oil, without the mess. But primarily they're used to constrain it so it can't warp towards one side or the other. Plate quenching is the easiest way to get nice straight blades.

[@BWhitey]

Because the steel they use is air hardening

[@alpk84]

@@belstain thanks!

[@bcbloc02]

@@BWhitey I have quenched a lot of air hardening tool steels using slow quench oil and with great results. I think if the blades were hung by their pivot hole and lowered in point first distortion would be minimal and it would be WAY faster. I wonder if John has tried this method or if it's just one of those that is how we have always done it kind of things.

[@BWhitey]

@@bcbloc02 Yes you can quench RWL34 in oil too which would cool it quicker but it's also messy and you can't use SS foil so there will be decarb that will need grinding off. The same hardness can be achieved with plate quenching and the plates also help to eliminate warping and the steel is cleaner. I don't see any benefits to oil quenching?