Heat treating stainless steel

In this video we'll take a look at some of the stuff that is involved with heat treating stainless steel knives, how it differs from heat treating high carbon steel and a few things I've learned over the last year.
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[@EkimKnives]

Glad to see the clamping trick worked with Nitro-V! The guys over at New Jersey Steel Baron said as long as you get the blade to below -100*f you should be good to go. I clamp everything now while sub zero quenching after I learned that trick lol

[@LouqueJ]

Glad I came a cross this. Having warping problems with AEBL and NitroV and was looking to make a straightening jig while in cryo and tempering. No problems with CTS-XHP.

[@Simplelittlelife]

Thanks for the help buddy! 👍

[@antilitarded4142]

Thnx for your very informative video......You just convinced me NOT to use stainless steel for knives......

[@Unclelarry766abc]

THANK YOU! Explaining this for the beginner has been incredibly helpful.

[@Simplelittlelife]

Glad it was helpful!

[@damianallen6309]

I've made some knifes on both Sandvik 12c27 and 14c28n. Heat treat to 1050°c for 6 minutes (depending on thickness) oil quench. I then clamp between to aluminium plates. Needs to get below 600°c within 2 minutes. Then in the freezer to -20°c. Then into the oven for 2 hours at 225°c. Easy to work with.

[@marcfournier823]

Fabulous video. Thanks for putting it all together for me.

[@lxplumm1]

Awesome vid, Jeremy. Thank you so much.

[@andrewgoldstein1606]

Great video Jeremy. Enjoyed your description of hardening steel. Thanks for the video.

[@wesleywernimont8690]

Another great video. One thing to add is on stainless cyro is not required but just an added bonus in wear resistance.

[@richardbohlingsr3490]

Nice information. Lots to think about. Thanks for sharing.

[@lbcustomknives]

You can put a bit of Cole in the back of the oven which will help with decarb mate with the oil quenching steels. But it does shorten the life of the coils take care lee

[@bingamanknifeworks571]

Fantastic video. Thank you! I have been kicking around the idea of starting stainless knives. The thought of spending that kind of money on liquid nitrogen is tough to swallow. Thank you for clarifying the process.

[@RainyDayForge]

Awesome video! Thanks for sharing and taking the time to experiment with all these techniques.

[@Simplelittlelife]

Thank you and You’re welcome!

[@Stefanhallusa]

Yay! Been waiting for this for awhile... super helpful! I'm still working with the high carbon group but hope to try out some stainless soon.

[@dracfher]

It's a great video, thanks for sharing your wisdom!

[@marcinmichalak5886]

As always, well done Sir! I really enjoyed how in simple but well thought words, You have been explaining this very complex subject. Already looking forward for follow up video.

[@heyimamaker]

Very informative. Thanks for sharing!

[@garypiercey]

Great video, very good explanation! Thanks for all your great content.... I just wanted to say, I know you are not a fan of dry ice but don't be too hard on it. I've had experienced knife makers tell me that, while not as good as liquid nitrogen, it does a good job for cryo treatment. For beginners or low volume knife makers who can't afford the expense of LN its a good alternative to get a couple extra points of hardness before temper. I can put out 154CM blades in a respectable 61-62 range after temper using dry ice for cryo. I'm told that 2 hours of cryo is enough but I usually leave it on ice overnight. I can get about 4 days out of 5-6 kilos of dry ice in a styrofoam cooler and for those amounts the local distributors haven't bothered to charge me for it so far. Even if they did it would be couple dollars per kilo to buy... Its a good, cost effective, alternative and it will certainly extend the martensite transformation a little further than just heat treat + plate quench, but you are right that if you can afford it LN is the way to go for cryo.

[@joebird4827]

Thanks for another awesome video mate you insights are so helpful I’m moving to 12c27 from high carbon it’s a steep lurking curve

[@bryantfamilyhomestead5898]

Great info, thank you.

[@stevebutler1835]

I'm playing catch up on all your videos this one is very informative thank you so much for sharing

[@bigguyoutdoors7554]

Great video, we have had very good success with a 1"x1"ish piece of brown paper (a lunch/grocery bag) in our hardening of D2 and A2 tool steels, especially with D2. We've never had a pouch puff up. Just make sure you put the paper on the handle end of the pouch because it sometimes leaves an ash remnant.

[@trainwon5699]

Great job thanks

[@brucewayne-cave]

Very helpful, thanks !

[@c4dan]

Great video, looking at getting into stainless steel. This was very helpful.

[@ForceMultiplier]

Excellent info here. Thanks for the great video.

[@davidgagne1049]

When tempering a warped blade I clamp it to a piece of straight angle iron. If it is a big warp I will actually shim it beyond straight with a couple pieces of heat treat foil. I have had good success with this method.

[@lucasbaldwin6982]

Great vid, very helpful information Jeremy. Real engineering also has a video that helps to visualize the structure change for high carbon steels

[@Simplelittlelife]

Oh sweet! I’ll have to check that out. Thank you! 👍

[@paultidswell2981]

Great educational video,well done. Cheers

[@TheOtherGuybo]

I suspect the paper was causing steam to form, hence the pocket of 'air'. Depending on paper, about 10% is free water, you may consider pre-heating the paper to dry it out and see how that goes. Great content!

[@crazymennonite]

Fantastic video

[@brentsundayknives6448]

I've only ever made S.S. knives. Mostly 440c. I use an open air 3 burner furnace and quench vertically in Olive oil, and can get about a 58Rc. I've also recently started using AEB-L and a plate quench.

[@lifeonroad4412]

I was curious about using an inert gas as well.

[@Noonoo8619]

Hey! And the benefit of plate quench is, thin blades staying straight! With high carbon steels i quench it in oil and after that, put them between two aluminum plates! I think you’re doing it right! 😎👍

[@nathanelmes8811]

For the decarbonisation have you tried a tight carbon wrap around the blade before you envelope the blade? Kind of like what the Japanese do with the clay and ground charcoal mix coating. So if there’s any oxygen in the envelope the wrap gets attacked Primarily. Also the blade may absorb tiny bit of carbon. ... better gain some than lose some.. a bit like casehardening. It’s just a thought. Who doesn’t like an experiment!!

[@markfulmer67]

Great video

[@sirsir9665]

Heat treating and quenching is like having a empty balloon. Once you heat treat the steel it's strong and tight like a balloon full of air. If you let it cool it will slowly lose air. If you quench it it will stay blown up.

[@ChopKnives]

Great vid (as usual), Jeremy. 👍🏼

[@Simplelittlelife]

Thanks Craig! Much appreciated 👍

[@jamesmontgomery6343]

I'd be curious to see a comparison with a piece of stainless in a pouch and one without the pouch heat treated to see how much decarb actually happens.

[@calebgauthreaux1328]

awesome video man thanks for the imfo

[@chrissorensen2618]

When we heat treat a2 and simular air cooled steel we go 1725f for 2 hours then air cool under a fan until the temp drops to 150-200 F then it goes right into the temper oven at 400-700 depending on hardness desired.

[@TheQuamfyShow]

ty in advance man! i know im gonna love this ^^

[@tek4]

Awesome vid Something I wish people would understand is that, company's have spent BILLIONS on metallurgy and understanding just was metal x does with what process and with that information we all can benefit. Aka the do it right way of thinking. Also dooer is how you say it. And liquid nitrogen is awesome

[@PNG4x4]

Great video for me as I seek to learn more about heat treat... you brought up the subject of oxygen and carburization.. and also talked about welding. Though came to me, thinking outside the box. What if we used our inert welding gas to shield in heat treat? Either shoot some inside that stainless envelope, or introduce it somehow into the oven.. just a thought.

[@robertkoontz7865]

Hey KK I was thinking the same thing. You could insert/weld in a Pig Tail w/ Schrader Valve, Its like a bicycle tire valve but for Refrigeration. Pull a vacuum, Then pump in the Argon

[@64t120r]

Interesting about your pouches becoming s.s. balloons. Mine do, as well, whether I put anything else in it or not. However, mine don't balloon up until I take them out of the oven. Then they flatten out while between my aluminum plates and they still come out nice and clean, no decarb.

[@JohnUllrey]

You could use some thing like the foam in you Kydex press to push all the air out before closing the stainless steel foil pouch.

[@Simplelittlelife]

That’s a great idea, thank you!

[@page76metalcraft19]

Hey man thanks for another good vid. Just curious if you could reuse the envelopes once or twice to help supplement the expense ?

[@timothyduzenski1386]

I had the same issue with the paper. Just put about a 1” x 1” square. Very small amount. Just help keep scale down.

[@lachy1709]

id be interested to have DBK test a few of your knives, like identical styles but different heat treats and steels. Like maybe two O1s, one with cryo and one without, then the same with cpm-3v or nitro-v

[@ihaveriffs8261]

Would the process be the same for something like 20 gauge wire? I used to make jewelry and things with hard stainless wire that I got from the welding supply store. It came in straight rods and was super hard and durable for the finished product... but it was killing my hands to bend and work with it. I’m thinking that if I can use milder steel for the creating process, then maybe I can harden it afterward.

[@jacobeeortega2910]

What’s your tempering temperature and. Time for 0-1 tool steel. Thank yu

[@tarts9767]

Hi there ! Thanks for very informative video, liked it ! I did my first plate hardening on AEB-L and for some reason the heat treating foil stuck to the blade (so it`s hard to get it off there). Do you have any comment on this ? 👍😊

[@vladislavjisa]

nice, can you give some little advise how long your hold knifes from chromium alloy in the cooling bath if you make some?

[@gabrielhermel6932]

Instead of the steel foil, you could use a slurry I developed to protect your parts. It's one part fly ash, one part graphite, and two parts alumina-silica refractory with enough diethyl ether to make a thick paste (you could use acetone, but that might lead to some cracking). Let it air dry for at least a few hours in a very well ventilated place; then hold it at a low temp (400 f) for a couple hours, periodically venting your kiln, before soaking it at the desired temp. Quench in oil or water, though with oil you should agitate the hell out of it. It chips off pretty easy, especially if you oil blacken before applying.

[@DJ-db9km]

newbie question. when you say tempering process is that the same as annealing? i.e 400° at 30 minutes, cool repeat? TIA..

[@galafever]

Simple Little Life: I read somewhere that to get a good heat treat, with the plate quench, the bevels should not be ground until after the HT process. Otherwise the blade edge (most important part) cools slower. Do you have any thoughts or experience on that? P.S. Great video(s)

[@mramanya]

Thanks for the vid! :-)

[@TheDecaystar]

Whats your experience with Niolox? As far as I Can read its supposed to harden in Oil, but it is a Chrome steel.

[@Mortalbeing1]

Nice video, is VG-10 steel any good?

[@zombiejoe13]

how thick do the aluminum plates need to be? would 1/4 aluminum work? or is that too thin?

[@nastyrecon1019]

Zombie Joe Knives I would say it depends on how much air you blow in there. The plates of aluminium need to be thick enough to soak up the heat from the knife. Personally I wouldn't go below 1/2 inch. Take this with a grain of salt because I haven't made any knives yet. I have just become a student of the subject and have countless hours on KZbin university....lol

[@robertkoontz7865]

What if you were able to cool down your Aluminum / Aluminium plates before clamping the Austinite blade? ie: drill channels or tubes and run refrigerant through the coils. I invert a bottle of CO2 and freeze the edge before tempering. I know, lol but It makes me feel good. It could work. :-) Great Vid btw.

[@martyzuno4807]

S35vn daily carrier here 🔪

[@Simplelittlelife]

Yeah👍

[@woss321]

Jeremy quick question if I may.... do you heat your oil when quenching high carbon steels. I've heard that counter-intuitively that it cools the steel quicker. Cheers mate. Keep the videos coming. Very educational.

[@Simplelittlelife]

Yes it is supposed to (from what smarter people than me say) cool your blades faster and I agree from what I’ve seen. I’ve dealt with cold, thick and frozen oil a lot I think the idea of a more fluid (warm) oil makes a lot of sense. Having said that, I’ve worried about both sides and tried dozens of blades either way and I can’t tell a difference. Except of course when the oil is so cold it flows slowly. 😆👍

[@leemitchell3020]

Tig welding 316L pipe I always purge the inside with argon, when it's not practical to purge I use Solar Flux sold at Praxair. Would a thin coat allowed to dry before putting in the foil pouch help maybe even eliminate the foil? Or coat with Solar Flux, dry and cover with fire caulk for a hamon without or with foil? Just a thought, maybe even try a borax paste. How about sealing your oven and purge it with Co2 or nitrogen wouldn't take a lot of flow if it halfway sealed. Nice videos for a Millwright, lol.

[@marcuswhite9750]

Most likely reason for the foil wrap expanding with paper is incomplete combustion (due to the little oxygen) creating carbon monoxide as a gas from what was a solid, gas also expands with increasing temperatures so that will amplify the affect even more

[@hantris70]

Hi Hello from vasque country my welding máster say to me that ashes or sand was good for template ????????

[@madome3117]

Where do you get the steel? Love your videos

[@jamesbarisitz4794]

What a cost! Stainless wrap plus liquid nitrogen adds how much on top of the per stainless stock blade? 20 bucks or so? Still interested in getting into the game- could you ballpark a guess on the process minus the steel? Thanks. Cool vid by the way! The learning curve goes over the horizon.

[@a.d4911]

you just made me respect you 10.000 times more

[@ericbernal3460]

where do you buy your steel? link please

[@DiegoChavezActon]

where do you buy your steel from?

[@wolfman011000]

Have you thought of drilling holes through and channels on the surface of the aluminium blocks that you can blow compressed air through for more even cooling? rather from just blowing it into the gaps? Interesting video, thank you very much, take car, God bless one and all.

[@brendonaverett3991]

Introducing wood to the furnace adds more carbon to the steel when wood burns it becomes carbon one of the things you can do is simply apply flux it eats oxygen when it burns on top of all of that with stainless you want a very low carbon to help the steel stain less you see what i did there but most steels are different for instance cpm-s30v and s35vn are a very interesting thing to heat treat because they are a powder steel which is quite a bit different to treat.

[@tek4]

Also buy a deep freezer for your Dewar of liquid nitrogen, help it last longer during the summer

[@0x2a1A4]

@ Simple Little Life first very nice and clear explanation, have you ever used clay to keep the oxygen away, this was used in Japanese sword making :)

[@mattdietz9580]

Really great video. Just a quick heads up, early on (1:58) you mentioned CPM 3V as a stainless steel. Although it has a lot of chromium (7.5%) it falls short of the 10.5% requirement to be considered stainless steel. As a result, CPM 3V does have better corrosion resistance than many other carbon steels, but it is still considered a carbon steel, not a stainless.

[@havoc1zero]

Does 1500 degrees not boil the quench liquid? I’m starting to make knives myself and can use all the info I can get. Thanks.

[@Icriedtoday]

Hmm. It seems that he could put a small bit of sugar into the pouch (high carbon) and also reduce puffing by reducing the amount of combustibles on the inside.

[@phillipriggs3375]

heat treating and tempering secrets can be shared with ak receivers builders

[@1d3d4f5s2d]

For your O-1 do you put it in LN2 right after the quench?

[@Simplelittlelife]

That’s some top secret shit right there.....🤫

[@billbaggins]

Very interesting and well explained as usual 👍 I use D2 with no cryo, works fine for me but I'd like your thoughts on a hardening dillema.. specs say to soak at 30 minutes per 25mm of thickness, since my stock is only 3mm does that equate to only needing a few min soak. ? I find that the longer the soak the more carburisation i get . gonna do some experiments soon but you could save me the time 😏

[@ee02004]

Since you do not do cryo can you share your D2 heat treatment procedure?

[@billbaggins]

I keep it pretty basic. slow heat to about 820c soak for 5-10 min then increase to 1000c and soak for 15-20 min ( thinking of reducing to 5-10min) and still air quenched ,ambient temp is usually between 10-20c, temper as soon as blade is cool enough to handle. 1 hour at 200c, twice. D2 is not the easiest to work with but has excellent stability with very little chance of warping as long as edge thickness is 0.3mm or more.

[@ee02004]

Thanks!

[@billbaggins]

No worries. hope it was helpful 👍

[@shazmirza3307]

For stainless Steal is it OK to use the Vacuum furnace for Hardening? If we don't want to Use the Envelop for de carbonization

[@shazmirza3307]

@Matthew M we have it In house.

[@Bal-sy5jr]

Cool

[@Simplelittlelife]

Thanks 👍

[@johncannon3593]

A thought on the decarburization and why it MIGHT not actually be as much of an issue as we tend to think: The decarb is generally only going to go very shallow on the steel where the oxygen can reach. So if you are going to do a final edge bevel grind after the heat treatment, you’ll probably grind away the thin outer layer that was decarbed. Now the thing that theoretically could cancel out this hypothesis is carbon migration, if the inner carbon will migrate to the decarbed surface and then itself become decarbed. Anybody have any further thoughts on this idea? Am I crazy?

[@thorwaldjohanson2526]

It's all a function of temperature and time. But you'd want to remove decarb as much as possible. That's why heat treating foil is generally recommended to not let any oxygen touch the blade.

[@geneclifford8662]

hey there Jeremy, are you buying your steel locally or from Jersey Steel.

[@johnthompson5180]

Can you cryo treat say just the spine or belly of a knife?

[@sirsir9665]

Also get rid of flea for trying to keep oxygen away when treating your knife would forming a vacuumed space in the oven help or not? If that's even safe or possible?

[@mathurm100]

I wonder if you could also use the nitrogen from your LN container. just let the fog fall into the envelope. it displaces air and is heavier than air so it should stay full. nitrogen is still a reactive gas so not sure what would happen.

[@conquerorh2885]

How about quenching plate with water colling so it can absorb more heat on Blade faster

[@clintonwhite2219]

Enjoyed the video sir. Have a question on saw blades have u made knives with them. What r ur feelings on them. I'm not a maker yet but I have a ton of videos in the library enjoy watching all the different ways their made. Looking for a retirement hobby in the future. Would like ur input please. Thank you sir. Happy Easter Clinton

[@125WRE]

Maybe you could use some argon gas to fill the envelope insted of using paper. If you happen to have a TIG welder you'll have a bottle of argon 4.6 anyway.

[@Simplelittlelife]

I think the problem with argon in a sealed envelope is that it expand 10X when it hits the temperatures required for stainless. That would just rip open the envelope.

[@125WRE]

@@Simplelittlelife Valid point actually. If you would flush the envelope with argon and afterwards squish everything excess out like you already do, anything left should be argon. But might be an unnecessary extra step, as you already get good results. Just something I was thinking about. (By the way I'm a student of mechanical engineering with focus on material science from Germany. I was referencing your heat treating process in a lecture about heat treatments of steel, since we were learning why steels over a certain amount of carbon need a cryo treatment to fully develop a martensitic structure. I love your work and hope I'll have time this Winter to get back into some knive making. )

[@McNally77]

The puffing with paper is probably due to moisture content of the paper. Paper (cellulose) is a water sponge type material. Water expands 17 times its original size when it vaporizes.

[@wesleywernimont8690]

That is an excellent point. Would wood be a better solution?

[@McNally77]

no, for the same reason. The cellulose in paper, originally from wood, sponges water. Wood is a no go.

[@McNally77]

only if you can get nearly zero percent humidity wood, like .001

[@wesleywernimont8690]

Thanks! I have some handle wood material that has been dried before stabilizing with very little moisture in it so perhaps I will try that next time.

[@hasanjeedaali5453]

Sir I have alot of question on cryogenic treatment I need your assistance. Can you assist me. Actully i want to do research on this for my masters degree

[@misfits0311]

Can you plate quench 52100? Thanks in advance.

[@griffithshandmade-knives]

Jer do you know for sure those ‘Knife makers you admire,’ were not using a wrap because they had coated the stainless blades in something like Condursal Z1100 instead? I’m just saying it may look like they are not protecting the blade if all you know is the wrap method. Also you don’t need to do anything if you are using a salt pot. Also curious how you are testing HRC on your carbon and stainless steel knives? File set or do you have a Rockwell hardness tester?

[@danielvanaman9314]

Quick question, where can we send viewers knife pics to?

[@TheTsunamilongboards]

Is any of the stainless you use austenitic? Or can that even be used to make a knife? I ask cause I scavenged a 12x12x about 1/4 inch sheet from a scrap bin that I know is stainless but is almost completely non magnetic.

[@Anothercivilian]

Heated debate about dry ice (pun intended) 🤣

[@Simplelittlelife]

Hahaha!

[@RainyDayForge]

Are you going to Caniron this year?

[@Simplelittlelife]

No I don’t think so. Looks like fun though 👍

[@TxStang]

what about a blast of pure argon into the envelope wrap before you close it up and heat treat ?

[@griffithshandmade-knives]

There are Paragon Kilns that have Argon Gas injectors on them as an option, unfortunately the argon gas is detrimental to the lifespan of the heating coils. Also, screwing around with Argon gas without the control of a specialized injector might not be the safest way to go...but that said how would you go about blasting the argon gas in there and sealing the stainless packet up fast enough or tight enough to keep it in there to do its job?

[@TxStang]

i use Argon when welding stainless as a shielding gas , maybe fold up all of the envelope except one small corner on each end , give it a blast of argon through one corner to push out the oxygen through the other corner then seal that one then seal the one that you pushed the argon into ? might work

[@esnyd]

Argon is significantly heavier than the atmosphere, you don't have to blast anything. Just seal all the edges but the vertical top, slowly purge argon into the envelope and it will settle at the bottom and displace any oxygen as it rises, then seal the top without tipping it over. It's essentially the same as filling a zip lock bag with water, then sealing the top. Argon injected kilns make sense to me but I'm not sure about durability of the coils. Argon would be less corrosive than oxygen/atmosphere right?

[@rehoboth_farm]

@@esnyd Since argon is a noble gas there should be none.

[@ac7563]

Have you ever hardened 304 stainless?

[@joejones9520]

Interesting, Id only read about the process, nice to see it. If I had to go thru all this tedium and expense, Id never make a knife again! 5160 is my middle name...quench in oil, temper on an old red hot file, yay, quick and easy and cheap but pretty damn sharp.