Do You Need Cryo for a Good Heat Treat?

[@nandayane]

My favorite part is Larrin’s daughter hitting him with snowballs, and him not missing a beat.

[@americangraffiti6192]

You sir are a treasure to the knife community. And that's the biggest understatement since Noah said it looks like we might get some rain.

[@elijahdursosabina]

I just got a bar of Magnacut and I'm trying to figure out what kind of cryo treatment to do on it, so this video couldn't have come at a better time! Thanks!

[@highplains7777]

The best part of the video starts at 14:42.

[@RainyDayForge]

This is incredibly timely because I just did my fist Cryo yesterday in AEB-L. Austenized at 1950, plate quenched and then cryo in between tempering cycles. Next time, I'll do it after my plate quench.

[@Divine_Serpent_Geh]

Thanks for this Dr. Larrin. So glad someone like you was finally able to bust the freezer myth and that “cold treatments don’t benefit low alloy steels at all.” 👍

[@keithtobin5369]

Thank you for that video very interesting I'm trying to learn more about this subject so that I can treat engine parts camshaft connecting rods Pistons etc if you got any info send it to me thanks

[@mikafoxx2717]

Very interesting to see even a freezer shortly after austenizing gives such a notable effect. Also looks like it might help with home blade Smiths that might get parts hotter than others accidentally..

[@satanaz]

crazy good video! somehow this was suggested by YT to me, and I had no expectations when clicking on it, but holy damn, I was surprised by the level of detail as an engineer I usually cringe at similar videos being done by people who has no idea what they're talking about... Needless to say this video was far from that and a pleasure to watch!

[@danbance5799]

Thank you. This covered pretty much everything I wanted to know about cryo treating.

[@ActiveAtom]

Well shared, we are happy to always be learning here, new HT oven so we will store your video for future review during our in-house efforts as you have placed a great effort into your discoveries that you are now sharing. Thank you. Lance & Patrick.

[@jwdory]

Another great video from Knife Steel Nerds. I learn something new every time. Keep up the good work. Looking forward to more videos on heat treating Magnacut.

[@lukegiffardtutt3778]

Really helpful. Thanks Larin. I’ve been using AEB-L with the same temps as your test and using a freezer. Had been considering getting dry ice, but given the marginal gains I think I’ll stick with the freezer until I can get a LN setup.

[@krustysurfer]

Thank you guys for another wonderful great video where we get to all nerd out together I love this kind of information it makes the wheels in my brain go round

[@larsmurdochkalsta8808]

I get the feeling one day your daughter is going to have a boyfriend and he is going to have a pocket knife and she is going to unload a lifetime of metallurgical knowledge on this poor lad who was just trying to open an envelope. To be clear, the reason for that thought is at 1:05 that interaction just reminds me so much of me and my sister with my dad growing up on a ranch. We have both definitely info dumped on our significant others about things that seem normal to us but from an outside perspective are apparently somewhere between strange and concerning

[@cosmicsloth246]

The video was great Larin but that shot of you putting that piece of steel into the freezer?! Cinematic gold 👌🙌💯💯 Thanks for the precise clear explanations, lots of questions answered!!

[@QuantumMechanic_88]

Your methodology makes for a very interesting video . Thanks and all the best.

[@notoioudmanboy]

Super super detailed and well explained thanks very much

[@randelrobbins1408]

Nice touch having your daughter opening the episode.

[@sekayegaudet131]

I love you continuing to provide such great data to the community your focus on being as scientific as possible makes it much more substantial than many of the wives tales that we have passed on for many years and stuff such as the x65 steel being sold as aebl would be someone I doubt anyone but dealers would ever know keep up your good work

[@harrisquicksilver6595]

Thanks doc, we all appreciate u so much!!!🙂

[@lawrenceragnarok1186]

It's cute seeing your daughter take an interest in your work, that's the American dream in my book.

[@joefergerson5243]

Thank you for this informative video!👍

[@davidmcmutrtey979]

Great video, thank you Larrin.

[@AaronJohnson1979]

You answered a ton of questions I’ve always had!! You are the MAN!! I love MAGNACUT by the way lol

[@jeffmolatore9234]

Nicley done and clearly presented. Congrats,

[@NordicEdge]

that is such a great video. Thank you for taking the time to do the tests and document in a clear manner.

[@a.d4911]

I just love chemistry behind smithing. It’s like cooking 😂

[@stormiewutzke4190]

Looks like you got the same storm I got up here in Syracuse.

[@lfrederic1823]

This video is gold ! The Grim Fandango background music makes it even more exquisite ! 😊

[@endurogubbarna]

Well as a Swed I need to go over this twice to understand all, but both times one of the best parts where around 15 minutes! :)

[@stangbladeworks3579]

Thanks for the explanation, much appreciated!

[@seanbracy3799]

Thanks Latin. You’re the best

[@KHDailyKnives]

Great information as always! Keep up the great work! Also I thought it was so funny when your daughter hit you with the snowballs! 😄😄😄

[@KnifeSteelNerds]

It's hard to keep a straight face talking about metallurgy while being hit by snowballs.

[@anatineduo4289]

Man, this is wonderful!

[@christamu2]

A washer and dryer as a work bench? I feel that.

[@checoleman8877]

Great video! Thank you so much for making all of this information available.

[@TylrVncnt]

“Make sure to describe” too cute!

[@jacknemo8021]

Fascinating.

[@kenh8979]

Another GREAT video from the guru of HT"ing info. Thank you for the teaching you do. One thing that would be nice is when talking about carbon steels, what about the simple carbons of 10xx (1075, 1084, 1o95, etc?) would any of these benefit from cyro?

[@KnifeSteelNerds]

I have some charts on W1 steel in the written article version (linked in the description). W1 is a simple carbon steel with a bit more carbon than 1095.

[@Technoanima]

Wow that is a huge improvement! Did you do a guide from ingot to knife that included cyro-hardening?

[@devindodge8648]

The intro was precious insta like

[@logantucker8897]

Would LOVE to see a video on Aldo’s Nitro V. I’ve used it to make 40ish chef knives with pretty great results. I use Aldo’s suggest treat on the New Jersey Steel Baron website, without cryo. I’ve always wondered if the cost to get a liquid nitrogen setup for large chef knives would be worth the benefits of a cryogenic treatment? Will DEFINITELY be throwing my blades in the freezer for a few hrs before temper, from here, and moving forward! Thanks for the video! You’ve earned a new subscriber!!

[@philochristos]

This is some really awesome information. I'd love it if you'd do the same test with M390. Whereas it seems like most stainless steels, they recommend cryo at ridiculously cold temperature which require liquid nitrogen, "they" say with M390, you only need something like -100ºF, which you can do with dry ice and acetone. I'm curious if it's true because I have a huge slab of M390. Once I get done with it I plan to never use M390 again, but in the meantime, I gots to know stuff!

[@joesmith6199]

extremely interesting. I was a chemist at one time so it's less Greek to me than to some , i suppose. But I don't play with stainless or HSS, just O1, 52100, and 1.25% C file steel when i can get it. Those old made in America Nicholson files make great knives, but I've found it seems to improve them if you normalize three times before quenching. The edges don't seem to be brittle if you do that, even at a 375 degree temper. I have to admit i never tried bending one 90 degrees L and R.

[@davidgonzales3612]

Thank you! Very informativ video. I was thinking about cryo treatment for O1 for a while now. I think i'll place the knife in pure alcohol in the freezer for my first try.

[@rubenk6]

If you liked the video make sure to describe 😎

[@wailoh4332]

So if colder is more effective then does liquid helium make it even harder ?

[@cientifiko]

great video

[@raphaeldallanese3012]

thank you for the class brother! please, tell us more about ht on 52100 steel. thank you again!

[@KnifeSteelNerds]

knifesteelnerds.com/2019/05/13/how-to-heat-treat-52100/

[@raphaeldallanese3012]

@@KnifeSteelNerds thank you Larrin!

[@RobanyBigjobz]

Excellent, clear explanations, thanks. I do have a question though: if cryo treatment does affect simple carbon steels, would cryo treatment affect the appearance of a hamon?

[@KnifeSteelNerds]

The hamon comes from pearlite formation away from the edge not retained austenite so we wouldn't expect a difference in appearance.

[@RobanyBigjobz]

@@KnifeSteelNerds Thanks :)

[@AK-ContentCreatIon]

Wonderful! Thanks

[@davidhare9161]

Thank you!

[@lindboknifeandtool]

I’m happy to see you don’t use a fancy wifi PID.

[@addytuney2028]

Thank you Larrin!

[@matchesburn]

14:51 Is she going to do what I think she's going to do? 15:05 Yep! LOL.

[@axelleaxl.5315]

Hello, thanks for this Vid, I really learn a lot ! kisses from France, Axelle.

[@maxspruit8370]

Great video.

[@maxspruit8370]

What is the effect of delay between the "quench" and cryo? I saw a guy on youtube that bought a ton of the same drills. He put half of them in cryo. Than proceeded with double blind performance test. Was significant. But a hrc number would be nice.

[@KnifeSteelNerds]

The retained austenite stabilizes through carbon diffusion to the interface between martensite and austenite.

[@mikerouch416]

I wish you didn't change the temper between cryo no cryo. You may of gotten better results.

[@tacticalcenter8658]

Watched a video on using a 12 Tesla magnet during tempering. Interesting findings. It was from China in English, so pretty hard to understand. And I don't know of any 12 Tesla megnets around.

[@dimmacommunication]

What did it show ?

[@tacticalcenter8658]

@@dimmacommunication kzbin.info/www/bejne/aWbYnKlsdrFjabc

[@dimmacommunication]

@@tacticalcenter8658 Thank's :)

[@Montblanc1986]

Let's talk about the heat treatment on steak in the next video! Medium for mine!

[@thysvorster8960]

Hi mate, see lot knife steel heat treating block s and metord to do it. Thing is they never say. Say for instance :4mm 440 c. S/steel. 30 min for 1060c for 30 min then plate it or qiunc in fast oil what ever etc!! Hope you understand the ?

[@KnifeSteelNerds]

The AEB-L was 1/8" and it was austenitized for 15 minutes and plate quenched.

[@ChateauBeaufort]

SWEET!…

[@chuckmason3493]

I have been pulling research articles and reading cryo processing books for the past several months, at least when I can keep my eyes open and yes I have read all of Jay Fischer’s web site. I have the following conclusions - as stated in the video, max cryo benefits are tied to a particular group of steels. SS types seem to receive the most benefit. All of my reading indicates that a controlled ramp down to LN temp is needed and that and that cryo treatment should start as soon as possible after plate air quench for the SS. None of my reading, or any knife makes web site that I have found, or you tube video video goes over a detailed process to go from heat treat, to plate quench, to a controlled temp ramp to LN temps. Plate quench to freezer, to dry ice to LN would be one way, but the final 200 degrees would be real fast. Labs frequently use LN ice bath that consists of an EVA container with LN in it and a thermal plate used to transfer the cold without submerging the item in LN. I have acquired the EVA tray and thermal plate and will be working on a repeatable process that includes good safety practices that can be affordable for a garage knife shop (no $8,000 cryo processor). This will include a modified press for AL plates with compressed air for the plate quench. A lot of practical questions to work out such as a data logger to monitor temps of 440C knife blanks as the go from plate quench to freezer to either dry ice and then LN or straight to the thermal plate sitting in LN for some time and then into LN for long soak. Of course I have a. 20 week wait on my Evenheat over, but I will be working out process design, tools, and safety stuff while I wait.

[@MountainFisher]

Always use dry ice in a well ventilated area as it only takes 30% of the air in a room to be CO2 to kill you. Also do not use lacquer thinner nor acetone as the fumes are poisonous and possibly explosive. Alcohol/dry ice mix never comes close to -109F of dry ice, it only reaches -90 at best as measured with an industrial infrared gun plus it wastes a lot of dry ice, too much interface with air unless you have it in an insulated cooler with a top that comes very close to the top of the alcohol mix is what we found. I put pieces of foam on the mixture to drop the temp closer to -109F. Just place flat knives between the dry ice blocks and they will equalize down to to at least -105F within an hour or two. I used ten lb. blocks and placed the knives between two sheets of .090 aluminum to prevent warping that direct contact sometimes caused, but any sheetmetal will work. I would place the knives between two 10 lb. blocks in a cooler with 4 inches of Styrofoam insulation and go home. I only ever mixed denatured alcohol for uneven machined parts, it isn't needed for flat knives and saves money, last time I looked dry ice was $2.00 a lb.

[@dimmacommunication]

Yeah insulation is key with dry ice :)

[@MountainFisher]

@@dimmacommunication It keeps for a long time if you treat it right.

[@cae2487]

Almost as important as the information is knowing larrin enjoys the good stuff....that yakitori chicken is amazing for a quick microwave meal lol. Thanks for knowledge you share with us all.

[@starkparker16]

I got some steaks in the mail and I just threw the dry ice in a pond and watched the bubbles. I feel pretty unproductive now but this is a good video so I'll be alright.

[@garetkonigsfeld2]

Have you ever read Jay Fishers knife pages. It would be very interesting to hear your thoughts on his writings. Thanks for the information all of your videos are very helpful.

[@nine11kid]

Would you recommend doing cryo on a Magnacut wakazashi? Curious if you think it would remove too much of the toughness?

[@llamawizard]

What is the quenching plates are kept in the freezer?

[@chriscramer3706]

Awesome video, this gave me a lot more confidence in my decision to purchase a LN2 tank, as well as my previous work with Nitro V and Magnacut only with a deep freezer. How long do you usually have to dip the blade in LN2 immediately after quenching, or is it cold enough that the steel would reach -300 within seconds?

[@KnifeSteelNerds]

It just needs to get down to temperature. 30-60 minutes is fine.

[@RogerF]

If I quenched in Parks 50 oil, is that ok?

[@saftschubse9575]

So can i cold treat a finished knive and it will improve its characteristics significantly?

[@john-michaelrobinson3994]

This is with ABL. Would the results be different with 440C?

[@beardedarchery3576]

I'm wondering if you have done any studies on CPM 3v and how to maximize edge retention with maintaining as much toughest as possible. What would that heat treatment look like???

[@upside-down_pineapple]

Google delta 3v heat treatment

[@littlebear1520]

So just to make sure you are heating the steel that and then printing it dry ice

[@allanallansson9532]

What about clamping between aluminium blocks that were pre-cooled in li-N2? Warping stopped and rapid cooling in one go...

[@upside-down_pineapple]

Ice formation on the surface of the blocks would dramatically decrease the smoothness/consistency of the surface and therefore lead to inconsistent cooling throughout your blank which would do more harm then good....

[@Nudel-nc1cp]

Hey I have a totally lame noob question: Are blanks that I could buy from knifemaking stores already annealed? Thanks.

[@petergundel2956]

Hi Larin, the mobility of carbon at cryo-temperature is negible, experiments has shown that the shape of the temperature profile is of importance, there is a change in the stoichiometry of the carbides formed during tempering after cryo, you may learn more from the work of Matteo Villa. Best regards

[@audi0phile1349]

What's that spyderco in your pocket during your LN2 soak at @2:20? Your magnacut PM2 or something secret?

[@KnifeSteelNerds]

MagnaCut PM2

[@tacticalcenter8658]

What if catra is not an idea test?

[@sirsir9665]

It's so strange that the Cryo has such different effects in almost every study. I wonder what the factors are that change the results so much. It almost seems to Fluctuate and be as touchy as the Heat Treatment itself

[@Hungrybird474]

Does cpm (crucible particle metallurgy );technology align the different steels molecular structure ? I heard it s good becasue they don’t have to use alloys to bond the parts ? I know you know is why I m asking . It’s probably not that simple and I should buy the book .😊

[@upside-down_pineapple]

Particle metallurgy only decreases carbide size (depending on your heat treatment protocol). It has no observable benefit on the steel matrix.

[@lindboknifeandtool]

Make sure to like and describe

[@AYellowPepper]

Soooooo, in theory stick my factory made knives at home in the freezer (or LN2) and they would get some minimal hardness improvements? if i understand it correctly some of the austentite might have sabilized, but some might still tranform?

[@KnifeSteelNerds]

The RA would likely be too stable.

[@Hungrybird474]

Ha. I didn’t even know they used nitro . I thought it would crack it but what do I know ? Nothing , lol . That’s why I m here . 👍👍

[@garetkonigsfeld2]

Have you read Jay Fisher's web site? If so whats your take on Jay Fisher's thoughts on cryo. I may have missed you talking about it if so sorry. Is it better to cool slowly in cryo ? Or just dropping the knife into liquid Nigerian? Does it matter in your opinion? Thanks for all the info just came across your site and subscribe.

[@Uploaderization]

Liquid Nigerian... 😆

[@MAZEMIND]

😇

[@patrickphineascassidy6200]

Hi, im new to this channel, but i was wondering is it safe to heat treat a blade in antifreeze?

[@KnifeSteelNerds]

If you use antifreeze instead of alcohol or acetone with your dry ice, the antifreeze will freeze. I know, the name antifreeze is a bit misleading.

[@Silverfurry89]

Tried copper plates?

[@Nudel-nc1cp]

Good idea. Copper has very good heat dissipation.

[@upside-down_pineapple]

Sure it could be of benefit hrc wise but would be cost prohibitive for most knife makers....

[@dimmacommunication]

Could you do a video on 14c28n ? :)

[@kurtbilinski1723]

There are (were?) cryo services offered for many car parts such as brake rotors, valves, and connecting rods. It was, and still is, a contentious issue, with some saying it greatly improved wear, while others saying, not so much. I think the real variable in its use isn't scientific, but marketing-driven. That is, it's way too easy for vendors to "suggest" that it's awesome - because it increases profit. Thanks for your detailed look into this as it unfortunately appears to be a mix of wishful thinking, confirmation bias, and greed, instead of a legitimate treatment.

[@RainyDayForge]

I guess your little girl wanted a bit of attention, eh! "I'll just toss a snowball at dad." lol That was funny.

[@carnicero7590]

One thing I don't understand is why carbon steels may benefit from cryo when their Mf is above room temperature, maybe it has to do with other phenomenon than martensitic transformation

[@KnifeSteelNerds]

Their martensite finish isn’t above room temperature.

[@carnicero7590]

My bad I don't remember where I read this but I checked and you're right

[@fvazquez64]

Proper music for a cryo treat... cool jazz... I dig andean music, but I don't like the switch of beat...

[@KnifeSteelNerds]

I just think the formation of martensite has a different style I guess.

[@fvazquez64]

@@KnifeSteelNerds now I see... Different process, different rhyhm...

[@christamu2]

Indeed. The Grim Fandango soundtrack is always a great choice.

[@UberDumpling]

I like the younger spokesperson better. :)

[@timrodriguez1]

🤠👍

[@jimhamlin8671]

🤯😮😲🤯🤯

[@jacobcarter6028]

Someone doesn’t like 60 minute Cryo treatments 😂

[@krissteel4074]

I've always struggled with weighing up the time/expense for cryo, it does ok on some steels for a really minuscule gain in any tangible qualities and some just had no real effect. So I think for the most part and concerning most steels that I use is that: Yes, there is a mechanical effect No, its mostly not worth it as an 'added value' As a side note, its still wildly popular in the engine building scene with some things like crankshafts and cams that endure a lot of torsional strain on their use, so they do find with their high alloy components they're managing to scavenge more toughness for the same weight of materials and still consider it worthwhile.

[@b3s13g3d]

If you use an actual high-quality, high-alloy hypereutectoid martensitic stainless steel *and do the cryo properly!!!* (not what is shown here) the increase in toughness and hardness with DEEP cryo (-320°F) can be anywhere from 200% to 800% from the resulting complete conversion of austenite to martensite and the precipitation of eta carbides. That's not worth it? When one knife maker I know of charges a /starting/ price of $1500 for blades with such treatment, and is **years** in backorder, including numerous military, police and counter-terrorism customers?

[@krissteel4074]

@@b3s13g3d I live in a remote area, it'd be a 3hr round trip to pick up either CO2 or N and being physically disabled would make for a tough day of work for me just to get it and transport it back as no ones going to deliver it here. I've experimented with the steels that I use regularly and there's a fairly limited increase or no tangible increase to their performance that would warrant pushing those costs onto my customers in this instance. Circumstances where different it might be some added value, but in my case they're not and while I could make someone a 1500 knife if that's what they wanted to pay for it is a whole other subjective level of value/cost. So instead I use steels which out of the box are able to provide good performance to their role without cryo cycles, they do exist and are more importantly readily available and I don't want to make weapons for various personal reasons so I'm not really worried about the counter terrorism/LE market as its already full of options. That's just my business decision to keep things at a reasonable price, on time as a good product for customers to use daily- with what my circumstances allow.

[@goot776]

@@b3s13g3d ok jay fisher

[@bobhabsolute4995]

I only have one question, did she get your attention? 😊