Heated Debates & Misconceptions about Degrowth (Timothée Parrique)

[@sriramwriting]

Marshall Saahlin's paper on the "original affluent society", coupled with Irwin Yahlom's treatise on existential psychodynamics, helped me immeasurably in providing a psychosocial argument for shifting from a growth-based economic mindset to a circulatory economic mindset. I do believe decommodification and redistribution are vital practical methods towards the same. Thanks for the podcast!

[@ZS71]

Communism is bad

[@coolioso808]

If you liked that you may also very much enjoy Peter Joseph's book, 'The New Human Rights Movement' and Jason HIckel's "Less is More" book.

[@sriramwriting]

@@coolioso808 will definitely check them out...thanks for the recommendations 👊

[@Blodhosta]

At 47:25 he speaks of a massive 2020 meta study on decoupling. If anyone is interested in looking it up, it's by Wiedenhofer et al and is called _A Systematic Review of the Evidence on Decoupling of GDP, Resource Use and GHG Emissions._ It's published in two parts, where part 1 is mostly methodological stuff while part 2 contains the actual findings. It hurts my feelings how often researchers talk about studies without mentioning their titles or authors or anything. X) It's like going on a rant about what a great movie you saw last weekend without ever mentioning its name.

[@MetabolismofCities]

Good catch!! Indeed that is the study (and it is a good one). Yes, we often do that but sometimes it is also not to bore listeners.

[@Doihavetochoosemynam]

@@MetabolismofCities the norm is to put those in the description.

[@MetabolismofCities]

@@Doihavetochoosemynam It's a good idea (never heard it as a norm before). Please do not hesitate to add them in the comments as well. It's quite hard to keep track of all of them in long discussions and so it'll be very helpful.

[@Doihavetochoosemynam]

@@MetabolismofCities Maybe a bit of an exaggeration - I used watch a lot of nutrition made simple and mic the vegan. Different format though ~10 min videoes with a claim backed up by studies which they would to an extent explain.

It's from Haberl et al., 🙃

[@Superjeanmarc]

Absolutely brilliant. So happy to see that Timothee speaks so well English.. So many French experts in the area are confined to the French audience and its so frustrating every time you want to share this the World

[@ZS71]

Communism is bad

[@ThaKKatt]

someone needs to take pity on us Americans and help us learn lol

[@richardbergson1047]

Only just found this podcast and TP makes a compelling case for Degrowth both as a label and a concept. My best takeaway is the observation that economics has no fundamental logic - only the logic that people give it. In other words, economics serves those who create it so democratising economics ensures we make it serve the community. What is fundamental though is that economics does not exist in a vacuum but is integral to the environment, ecology of our planet, politics and human well-being.

[@stephen_pfrimmer]

Thank you Aristide. Thank you Timothee.

[@danilo.castelli]

The diet analogy is really good. Because making a healthy diet means eat less unhealthy food and eat more healthy and nutritive food. Which will result in eating less food in total, but also being healthier.

[@SylvainDuford]

Every debate about degrowth should start with the fact that it is not some socialist dream, but something that we absolutely have to do. We have the choice between doing it in a voluntary and controlled manner, or else mother nature will do it for us. So far it looks like we are choosing the latter.

[@neandrewthal]

I trust nature more than any government with socialist dreams.

[@rustylidrazzah5170]

Exactly! Almost word for word I have made that point before a hundred times. It is not even a debate.

[@Budguy68]

When the government forces people into degrowth by increasing taxes, fuel or policies than its not voluntary.... No one is going to voluntary choose to have lower wages or pay more taxes. So please stop using the word voluntary. When you are trying to sell a shitty idea its still gonna be a shitty idea regardless of how you package it...

[@ronmartin1375]

What happens if it doesn’t happen? Is that bad?

[@truemandouglas4303]

Terrific...thank you so much! I have a background in the non-profit sector and not many people know that it is far more difficult to run a non-profit than it is a for profit, since the majority of funds and resources go to facilitating programs that are oriented toward one or many of the four pillars mentioned and not to overhead. On the other hand, a for profit company is essentially easier since it typically is working with surplus, even after carrying a huge amount of overhead. I would take a well run and healthy non profit executive any day, hands down, over a for profit executive because the non profit executive is making his organization run on typically 5% of revenue. This fits well with the cooperative approach mentioned here. Thanks again.

[@ZS71]

Communism is bad

[@MrPaolosio]

Amazing. Sociatal metabolism and MuSIASEM has really helped shaped my thinking concerning sustainability and the relationship between human society and nature, but this podcast has really helped improve my understanding where degrowth sits within this. Thanks guys :)

[@ZS71]

Communism is bad

[@nwtfrancepourunnouveaumond3583]

Economist don't want to face their delusions and their consequences, so they are affraid of someone like Timothée.

[@MetabolismofCities]

Well economy is a social construct so it is quite sad that we/economists are so attached to the current economic system. So many other options are available and Timothée helps us to see another path.

[@nwtfrancepourunnouveaumond3583]

@@MetabolismofCities absolutely, and we need to see another path, because the current one is sending us on the verge of disaster.

[@tuckerbugeater]

@@nwtfrancepourunnouveaumond3583 When does the pain come from this deliberately created disaster?

[@jimimased1894]

You’re not living in Tunisia, try a bit of degrowth for yourself. It’s amazing you will love it.

[@chapter4travels]

De-growth always involves force where the forcing side is far better off than the ones being forced to live with less. The degrowth argument really gets in trouble when people realize that we have unlimited, clean, safe energy.

[@there_their_theyre]

It’s not just unlimited energy but less things in general, unlimited energy is not unlimited planet resources. We’re preserving natural resources and environments on our planet by overall living with less stuff but still satisfying our needs

[@HealingLifeKwikly]

"The degrowth argument really gets in trouble when people realize that we have unlimited, clean, safe energy." No, we don't, renewables causes their own various forms of pollution and ecosystem degradation (and require lots of fossil fuels as well) and the idea that humanity can operate nuclear safely at scale and store the wastes safely at scale across varied geographic, political, and economic conditions belies everything we know about humans and our civilization.

[@chapter4travels]

@@HealingLifeKwikly Nuclear "Waste" is an asset, not a liability. It should be called stored nuclear fuel and will never be anything other than a political problem, not an actual one. And yes, we have billions of years worth of fissile fuel most of requires no mining.

[@user-jy5qm8nc9m]

@@chapter4travels why doesn't it require mining ? Doesn't uranium and thorium need mining ?

[@chapter4travels]

@@user-jy5qm8nc9m We have enough stored nuclear "waste" to power the world for a hundred years +/- but well before that is all used up we have uranium extraction from seawater which involves no mining, just filtering. We already know how to do it. That will last about 2 billion years and thorium after that. Natural population decline will take care of itself.

[@VladBunea]

Great interview! May I ask what software you used for the interview? I would like to interview Mr. Parrique on my channel as well.

[@MetabolismofCities]

Hi Vlad, the main software used for recording the remote interview (Timothée) was zoom. The local recording is done through OBS and the episode is then edited on Premiere Pro. There are probably easier/cheaper ways to do things, though.

[@VladBunea]

@@MetabolismofCities Thank you! Much appreciated. Keep up the great work. I am glad I discovered your channel.

[@MetabolismofCities]

@@VladBunea Thanks a lot and best of luck

[@ZS71]

Communism is bad

[@neandrewthal]

It's basically Socialism with extra steps. Change my mind. I mean there are definitely newer ideas which are not an essential part of socialism but it seems like the entire idea cannot stand without the socialism at the core.

[@PatrickKizny]

What is the second book he mentioned at the end? Can’t seem to spell it and find it anywhere please.

[@MetabolismofCities]

Three books were recommended : The case for Degrowth (Kallis, Paulson, D'Alisa & Demaris) ; Less is More (Hickel) ; Limits (Kallis)

[@rustylidrazzah5170]

What is the modern beef with degrowth? In the 1970’s pensions, personal savings accounts, and social security in the USA were the 3 legs of the potential for retirement. Now 401k’s, IRA’s, mutual funds, etc… have everyone at least a little concerned with market growth. Being the world’s largest consumer, and economy, that became contagious worldwide. Even the teacher’s Union with their pensions relying on market growth are going through flinch at the thought of degrowth. Same for someone in a nation where their home’s financial value is a key component of their retirement plans. They are banking on that growth. It’s all a ponzi scheme. Nature, energy, and resources won’t allow for that growth to occur perpetually.

[@eneldia85]

Can somebody help me find references for the macroeconomic surplus and basket reference method mentioned by Timothee?

[@matteomagnani823]

He's clearly the Messiah.

[@bentray1908]

The reason for growth is political and military competition between states. How can this military competition be arrested?

[@alandoane9168]

All-out global nuclear war.

[@JayFortran]

Degrowth = Commons Economy

[@blondej00nie]

at 11;30 timothy said “decirculize certain institutions” what does that mean and what institutions are we talking abt?

[@trioofone8911]

Growth is a religious mantra of modern economics, a la NeoLiberalism. My understanding of what is called "NeoLiberalism" is, one of it's pillars is everything can/SHOULD be marketized. I think that proposing degrowth is probably equivalent to "zero market". Very distressing to economists who have cut their teeth on "all is market".

[@Achrononmaster]

@14:20 Timothée doesn't understand the monetary system. Governments that are currency issuers (or the ECB in the eurozone) operate a scoreboard, they do not use "tax payer money." All currency used to pay taxes had to first come from government spending or welfare payments or bank credit, and all bank credit is backed by collateral originally purchased with the state currency. State money (aka. tax credits) does not come from anywhere else. So "how to pay for it"? Your pols vote in parliament and thereby authorize the Central bank/Treasury to type numbers into worker or contractor bank accounts, that's how. Taxes are a return, a redemption (revenir), validating the currency. If you do not tax then you drop demand for the otherwise worthless currency, but the tax is not a "pay for". It's a coercive system. The state issues tax liabilities payable only in it's currency unit, you then need to get their currency, they tell you how to get it (through government spending or state-licenced bank credit). Private firms do create "value" (whatever that means, partly subjective) but they cannot "generate money," that'd be called counterfeiting. Firm sales suck money out of buyers, it is not money generation, it's a transfer. The state does not need a single rich person to pay taxes, they create a vacuum by issuing tax liabilities, this creates willing sellers of goods and services. The state creates the market for goods in their currency unit. If they do not then spend enough to cover the need to pay taxes (they coerce) and the private savings desires, the result is (needless) unemployment of real resources, hence a red zone inside the Doughnut (doughnuteconomics.org/).

[@kace999]

Growth of what? Monetary value of production. What is the monetary value of production? Wealth. Whose wealth? Capitalist's wealth. That's where your enemy is.

[@aliendroneservices6621]

10:01 10:02 10:03 10:04 10:05 How is the present system unsustainable?

[@trioofone8911]

So many of the points you make in the last 3rd of this presentation sound like things Richard Wolff talks about: democratize the workplace, co-ops, etc.

[@engledelaffety4380]

I wish this was more of a debate, I heard a lot of questionable assumptions

[@MetabolismofCities]

Thanks for your comment Engle. This is indeed (most probably) a rather biased discussion. What are some assumptions you would have liked to be debated?

[@engledelaffety4380]

@@MetabolismofCities it always makes for a richer conversation when you can counteract with your guest. I heard Timothée say we could model ourselves on Costa Rica a nation that has good well being indicators without the growth to GDP. This is not true. In fact, CR now is going through a debt management crisis in which they are seeking bailout from IMF. CR has a 18% unemployment rate. Nevertheless I enjoyed listening to you guys, Timothée is very passionate which is never a bad thing!

[@Sol66459]

@@engledelaffety4380 That’s a detail though, were there any assumptions you found questionable in the core thesis?

[@coolioso808]

@@engledelaffety4380 Zeitgeist: Addendum and Moving Forward by Peter Joseph are crucial learning materials I would suggest for anyone who is genuinely interested in learning about the incompatible nature of capitalism, debt-based currency and a hope of a sustainable future. GDP is a terrible measure for health and happiness in any country. A nation's debt is not a problem any more than it can be exploited to make the people suffer more. Debt and money are illusions we've made real, thousands of years before we were born, and we are needing evolution of our economic system if we hope to survive and thrive longer. Debt management imposed by IMF has been a false burden they've done to so many nations in the Global South. If unemployment is 18% that is probably counting typical paid, salary or wage employees, not people who may work at home for themselves or family, for the community and do things cooperatively and through mutual aid or 'pro bono.' The technical unemployment rate could be 50% but if all those 50% of people have healthy access to food, water, shelter, healthcare, education, transportation and other needs, then what is the problem? That's good. And de-growth has a chance.

[@0MVR_0]

degrowth is acceleration towards the origin accelerating the wealthy to a point of origin is conventionally referred to as socialism.

[@life42theuniverse]

Green growth just means growth... Growth is the growing energy supply. Oil supply peaked 2008. The economy is degrowing!

[@Achrononmaster]

GDP is a measure of expenditure, not growth. We could "degrow" emissions and pollution without reducing GDP. You do not even want to publish GDP, it's an accounting entry. Better to publish the Doughnut = measures of where you've undershot resource use (under-employment) and where you've overshot (emissions)..

[@garetthewitt9976]

Why does he never actually say how people will make money ??? Vacations?? Boats, cars, bikes. People will still want these .

[@bentray1908]

Gdp is spending. We need to calculate and monetize the wealth of society.

[@quiet451]

Great interview! I guess need to learn French so I can watch L'An 01.

[@MetabolismofCities]

Thanks for that! Glad you liked it. Good motivation to learn FR. Don't hesitate to share your favourite moments or what was something you learned.

[@megetmorsomt]

Communism on steroids - I'm sure that'll work out fine...

[@kurtklingbeil6900]

liar

[@sunroad7228]

Our Western Civilisation today is an injured animal - cannot tolerate realising - it has foolishly destroyed almost all fossil fuel reserves in 150 years to the ground - for nothing… Our outgoing Western Civilisation today is an injured, wounded and dangerous animal - that cannot tolerate listening to anybody - only escaping forward… Traumatised, out of the last ice age, the European mind dealt with exploiting fossil reserves - like no tomorrow - unwilling to hear a word from sunshine-latitudes on any of their ages-old Wisdom - “And neither allow thy hand to remain shackled to thy neck, nor stretch it forth to the utmost limit [of thy capacity], lest thou find thyself blamed, or even destitute” - Quran Treating the World as children, playing a nanny Civilisation - has been the wrong path for the West to take, since Jevons in the 1860s, at the latest - destroying all fossil reserves in a blink of an eye - when it should have lasted 3000 years - plus. Time to let people understand how harsh are the Laws of Nature - and let them having a real future - rather than playing a nanny Civilisation, a fake Invisible-Hand, a fake Social-Engineer, imprisoning them inside a vicious, theatrical, synthetic and nonsense Hollywood-style cockfight show, a reality of an - Energy Musical Chairs Game… A real future that has not been pre-decided, turned a dead history before it was even born - burning finite fossil fuels to waste in - killing the future… Nikola Tesla, Einstein, Huxley, Orwell, Turing and Timothée Parrique should be forgiven for thinking their systems can last forever - finite fossil fuels are dangerously hypnotic to humans and their mental capacity. Humans were not ready morally, ethically and intellectually to start the mass extraction of fossil fuels with the advent of the steam engine 300 years ago. The Magna Carta requires now overhauling - adding to it the right for humans to understand what Energy really is; “In any system of energy, Control is what consumes energy the most. Time taken in stocking energy to build an energy system, adding to it the time taken in building the system will always be longer than the entire useful lifetime of the system. No energy store holds enough energy to extract an amount of energy equal to the total energy it stores. No system of energy can deliver sum useful energy in excess of the total energy put into constructing it. This universal truth applies to all systems. Energy, like time, flows from past to future”.

[@AudioPervert1]

Hey Hey Degrowth. How are you actually practicing it ? lets see that to even have the desire to debate further.

[@MetabolismofCities]

There are numerous existing examples throughout the world that are "practicing" degrowth. (look for instance www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305750X22001474)

[@pavelvodnar3206]

i lived in socialist country and believe me - it was terrible.

[@TheViktorofgilead]

What country? Soviet block?

[@pavelvodnar3206]

@@TheViktorofgilead Czechoslovakia

[@fleurette5222]

Why english should be the main language ? Why!

[@naikjoy]

..... all our world problems could be solved with a technocratic science directorate. Try to change my mind.

[@MetabolismofCities]

Some could argue this is the case already. The challenge remains in the translation and implementation of action (and who controls the process).

[@naikjoy]

@@MetabolismofCities scientist should control the process. Better than having an average Joe in charge.

[@MetabolismofCities]

@@naikjoy 100% but the thing is that even within scientists you have pro growth and degrowth folks and gals. So very different results would be achieved depending on the scientists. How to choose them?

[@naikjoy]

@@MetabolismofCities scientists are chasing only the truth. Each on its own department. You got social science, science this science that. The scientific methodology where you got a group of scientists testing and disproving or improving upon time after time everything is the best we can have. Laws and regulation would get updated constantly to whatever newest research has been proven by many scientists to be the truth. In the end its simple, something is either bad for you or good for you.. or you weigh in the pros and cons. Highest priority would be the celestial body we are on, then our health..then social stability and so on. Like its so simple I dont understand why it hasnt been done yet.

[@neandrewthal]

@@naikjoy I was certain that the original comment was sarcasm.